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Author Topic: Is This Real Football Anymore?  (Read 4010 times)

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macgyver hawg

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2008, 04:11:18 pm »

I knew when I started this I would open myself to criticism from the younger guys. I am old and resistant to change. The younger guys are just that, young and have never experienced  a sloberknocking defensive game of the 60's. Who is more in the right? I have no clue. All I know is that the new generation like the scoring and excitement of the present. It just go's kind of against the grain and the football purist in me. The game I remember and loved was the Auburn game year before last and even the year before that when at our place Auburn came out in the second half and tore our butts up by mixing in a few passes but driving the ball down our throat. We did not like it but it was beautiful football.

The athletes are different.  The 60's players simply looked like regular guys.  Today technology and new studies show how to build a bigger, stronger, athlete.  It's probably taken some of the joy away from it.

I agree a lot has changed for you and probably some changes make it harder to enjoy.  Of course there was a time when all the fans dressed up for games with a suit, tie, and the women wore dresses.
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bacon&eggs

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2008, 04:12:05 pm »

Old people are always right.  Since your 60, you need only find some 80 year old who can still talk and he'll straighten your !@# up real quick.  Me, I got to depend on 60 year olds like you to keep me honest.
Defense wins championships.  Always has, always will.  Offense is where the money is.  QB and RB is glamour.  The offenses just get fancier and fancier each year.  The defense stays brutal. 7-3 and 13-7, that is how football always was.  Auburn football is still like that, and it is good stuff. 
But everything is distorted now, new game, with all the old elements perfected and being constantly reused.  Boise Statue of Liberty play - now that is old school all the way, so is double reverse half back option, and fake left run right. 
I'll tell you what bothers me the most, and it isn't the style or speed of the play. It is this attitude that UA is "it", that we are not the underdog, that we have the best and should expect the best.
I saw WVU play and I thought, that coulda, shoulda been us.  They got it!  They have that "us against the world" stuff, they played with it every down.  They beat down OU to show the world that they were better, and in a few years the only people who really care are WVU players, fans and families, and that is good enough.
WVU played with their hearts out there, and that is real football.  UA played like it was waiting for its paycheck, played not to get hurt.

I knew when I started this I would open myself to criticism from the younger guys. I am old and resistant to change. The younger guys are just that, young and have never experienced  a sloberknocking defensive game of the 60's. Who is more in the right? I have no clue. All I know is that the new generation like the scoring and excitement of the present. It just go's kind of against the grain and the football purist in me. The game I remember and loved was the Auburn game year before last and even the year before that when at our place Auburn came out in the second half and tore our butts up by mixing in a few passes but driving the ball down our throat. We did not like it but it was beautiful football.
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ebay286

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2008, 04:51:52 pm »

No one teaches or coaches fundementals anymore.
Players don't tackle - that's been the main problem in these blowouts.

I also don't think OU was all that.


I hear this argument all the time but i actually disagree, technique goes along way but when a guy like Reggie Bush, Pat White, or Vince Young is jukin and jivin around out there even the player with the best technique in the world can look like a fool.
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tiber

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2008, 05:07:25 pm »

I knew when I started this I would open myself to criticism from the younger guys. I am old and resistant to change. The younger guys are just that, young and have never experienced  a sloberknocking defensive game of the 60's. Who is more in the right? I have no clue. All I know is that the new generation like the scoring and excitement of the present. It just go's kind of against the grain and the football purist in me. The game I remember and loved was the Auburn game year before last and even the year before that when at our place Auburn came out in the second half and tore our butts up by mixing in a few passes but driving the ball down our throat. We did not like it but it was beautiful football.

I remember football from the late 70's if that clarifies my point of view... maybe that timeframe qualifies as smashmouth football as well. 
I think the points I made about the WVU/OU game were valid... I don't have any disdain for OU (live far away and don't deal with their apparently obnoxious fans) and I don't mind seeing Bob Stoops succeed. 

As far as Michigan/Florida and Michigan/AppState, my counter-points are along the lines of committing to a method of play, having the talent to execute your plan, and then EXECUTING. 
Florida has had a flawed gameplan all year... much like Arkansas.  It involved total reliance on two players for 95% of the offense. 

Ultimately it's about winning the game with the tools you have.  Coaches are going to scheme to win in the most effective way they can figure out.


If the upstart Colonials had lined up and fought the English with only traditional and 'accepted' methods, none of us would be having this discussion. 
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JoePaul03

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2008, 05:29:18 pm »

I think you missed the over all point I was trying to make. Blame me for not being as coherent as I wanted to be. The over all point was where is this game headed and as far as the Ark Missouri game reference I think it is valid. Lots of things that I didn't mention to think about such as with such a scheme why was Hewitt not manning the middle at linebacker instead of Dacus who had not a chance in covering that much open space? Also many other puzzles. To say that the OU outcome would be the same again if they played again is just biased thinking against OU though I have to admit bias against them too. I do live in the Fort Smith area and their fans are insufferable. To be honest I watched several West Virginia games and no they could play until the cows come home and never reach that magical level again so then I will agree to disagree with the statement that they would continue to beat OU over and over because they are better. I guess Michigan would continue to beat Florida while losing to The Div 2 team they lost to also over and over with your point of view. Don't get mad but just think about this. The equalizer, the spread. Does it not make you think of a glorified game of flag football the way they spread everything out and then get the ball into the open spaces. This would not be possible if the blocking rules were not so liberal today. There would not be enough time for receivers to get open and qb's to set up in the pocket. The passing attack would be play action like the old days. Watch New England they almost do not need a running back. It is flag football at it's best while still allowing them to tackle. Anyway the game is changing and one thing I will admit to the older you get,the more you resist change. That is one reason I took early retirement a few years ago. I have to admit I am more comfortable with the things I understand and am familiar with.



I don't buy the Michigan/UF and App State/Michigan comparison to last night's game...Michigan/UF wasn't decided until the last two minutes and App State needed a last second block to seal their win. WVU manhandled OU and won by about three TDs. I see no reason not to expect the same result the majority of the time if these two teams were to play each other several times over. Especially if Slaton doesn't pop his hammy in the first quarter.

In my opinion, it always has and always will come down to execution by the players. Last night was speed/newfangled offense vs. size/strength/more traditional offense, and speed-based "gadget" offense won out. It's not always that way though...Remember the 1996 Fiesta Bowl? Florida had the fancy/creative "Fun 'n' Gun" offense predicated on speed and timing, and Nebraska ran the more traditional option and came with the old, traditional "we're just gonna line up and whip you" approach. That night, the "old" way of thinking won.
2007 WVU and 1995 Nebraska were different in their approach, but they both executed much better than OU and Florida when they played them. I think, regardless of what new offenses and defenses are developed, the team that executes better is almost always going to win.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 05:30:56 pm by JoePaul03 »
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JoePaul03

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2008, 05:34:06 pm »

I have to wonder if a smaller, faster defensive line that shoots the gaps every time wouldn't close up the spread some.  anyone seen that tried?

OU doesn't run a true spread attack all the time, but when they did last night, WVU's smaller, quick D-line totally worked OU's ginormous offensive line. They made those guys look like statues as they blew past them for most of the game.
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ferrellhog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2008, 05:41:32 pm »

I believe the pro sets and nickel packages will have to be revamped and to adjust for the spread feild.I dont see the 4-3 being a viable option against the spread unless you have a great LB corp and solid corners .Getting better athletes Saftey LB hybrid types to fill in at least 1 of the extra DB's.I know this is basically what we ran under burns and wommack but the blitz and zone packeages could be updated and I beleive could counter balance Some of the advantages the spread offense brings .Does anybody know what system OUR new DC uses?
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Ex-Trumpet

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2008, 05:47:11 pm »

Wow I don't know anymore but after last night and the Oklahoma debacle I question just where football is going with the Spread Offense and the wide splits and spreading the field where the most physically talented team is no longer winning the vast majority of the time. Yes, they still win most of the time but it seems that a physically under talented team can over come almost any obstacle when they are at a magical level and the other team is just playing at their average level, Last years Boise State - Oklahoma game is an example and Oklahoma - West Virginia is another example but to a lesser extent. Yes I know West Virgina is talented but I watched them to much this year to think they were more talented than Oklahoma. Same way with our Missouri game, there is no way that Missouri is that much more talented than Ark. The truth is they are pretty close in over all talent but better coached and they were at that magical level much like West Virginia was last night. With the rule changes of the last couple of decades it almost seems that the game is evolving into flag football that allows for blocking (above the waist) and tackling. The rules are getting to complex and open to intepertation by the refs. Last night I watched while the refs called almost everything they could see holding. Tuesday in the Cotton Bowl they let it almost all go except in the most extreme  cases. My point is not to rake the refs over the coals but to point out how when they first allowed players to get their hands away from their body to block they only allowed the players to only push. Now they are grabbing and even getting their arms outside the defenders chest area and even hooking their arms around to the back grabbing and getting away with it. It is becoming a wrasslin match on the lines and this is not the football that I grew up loving. I would almost be willing to go back to blocking below the waist and getting the hands back into the body next to the chest. For sure passing would drop off significantly and defense would come back into vogue. The way things are going ther e is going to be no such thing as consistent great defense for even the best of them are going to give up a ton of points from time to time when the other team is at that magical level. Before you point it out I will beat you to it, yes I am old and old fashioned and getting out of touch with the new reality but I do miss the grand old game of real football. Don't get me wrong because as this seemingy arms race escalates I do embrace Petrino because you do have to keep abreast of the new game today but I must admit I am confused where this new game is going and will the craziness of this season become even more crazy? sigh

As athletes get bigger, stronger, and faster the game changes; it must, or those that don't change will get beat up like OU or Arkansas...

OU is what, 1-4 in their last 5 bowl games?  UA 2-12 in their last 14?!?  I thought Stoops was supposed to be a stud?  BSU & WVa are not superior athletes, but their mental conditioning to the game is superior.  When Stoops figures this out, they will be tough to handle!

Golf is a great example...Tiger Woods has conditioned himself physically (and mentally) better than anyone else in the game.  He can hit it farther, higher, lower, etc. because he is a better athlete than his peers.  He also knows that no lead is too great to overcome--his peers know it, too!  When true athletes start playing golf, who knows how far the ball will go and how the game will change!!  Will it still be golf?  You bet; just not like I've ever played it...
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bacon&eggs

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2008, 05:48:53 pm »

Just curious JoePaul, do you or anyone else think that indominable spirit and perserverence and pride play a role.  Talent and execution not withstanding.
2007 WVU and 1995 Nebraska were different in their approach, but they both executed much better than OU and Florida when they played them. I think, regardless of what new offenses and defenses are developed, the team that executes better is almost always going to win.
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2008, 06:03:28 pm »

  Joe concerning you and Tibers post above. I don't bet but in years past I studied and knew my football and if you wanted to make a little money just take what I said and you would be pretty pleased. Not in every case but so much so you would not gripe. Now days I don't trust myself to venture where to put your money. Let me put it this way LSU has fabulous athletes yet I would not be surprised to see Ohio St come out and play the magical game and put a whuping on them. This game is getting less about the athletes and more about emotion and scheming and hitting them where they ain't. My confidence in thinking I know anything about this game is shaken. There are to many variables.
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GoodLuckGus

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2008, 06:04:52 pm »

You guys should just becomes fans of Ole Miss then.  You can watch all the outdated offense you want then.  Good luck!
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JoePaul03

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2008, 06:07:44 pm »

Just curious JoePaul, do you or anyone else think that indominable spirit and perserverence and pride play a role.  Talent and execution not withstanding.

Hmmm...Good question. I think it plays a part in the sense that teams with a lot of pride, perseverence, and spirit probably prepare better mentally (film study) and physically (practice hard, work out hard), than a team that just expects to show up and win b/c they're a traditional power or b/c that's what the media says they are going to do. I think that type of focused preparation probably results in a better overall execution of the game plan. So yeah, I guess I do think it plays some role...just not sure how much.
I also think anytime a team feels slighted, like WV did b/c of being a huge underdog and the fact that their coach left them, it can really help them focus in their preparation.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 06:10:59 pm by JoePaul03 »
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GoodLuckGus

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2008, 06:10:43 pm »

This game is getting less about the athletes and more about emotion and scheming and hitting them where they ain't. My confidence in thinking I know anything about this game is shaken. There are to many variables.

First, I would argue that the game has ALWAYS been much about emotion.  WVU didn't just execute better than OU, they clearly wanted it more.  Second, the game will continue to be about athletes.   Any offense/defense scheme you can come up with can be better executed with better athletes.  Period.  If you choose not to run said more effective scheme, that's your own fault.  Third,  execution is a HUGE factor.  I don't care what scheme you want to run, you need to execute it properly or be prepared to fail. Teams like Missouri and WVU didn't just lay the wood because they ran spreads... they executed better, they DO have atheletes, and they flat out wanted it more.  That's ALWAYS been the story of football and ALWAYS will be.
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bacon&eggs

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2008, 06:17:34 pm »

Petrino will run the power I in Q4 to protect the lead.  And, he'll throw out of the I and run out of the shot gun and use misdirection.  He'll mix it up, but in Q4, if he has the lead, a good lead, he'll play smash mouth.
You guys should just becomes fans of Ole Miss then.  You can watch all the outdated offense you want then.  Good luck!
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razorsox

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2008, 06:20:39 pm »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.

New England is the exception to the rule and until they can do it on a conistent basis (2-3 seasons) then they aren't doing anything to football.  It is nothing more than a style of play and it can be stopped.  Defenses will evolve as well.
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bacon&eggs

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2008, 06:21:55 pm »

NFL/NBA seems to lack the emotion from college level.  Although, NE seems to have something to prove this year, and Washington is playing for something as well.  But college, emotion is everywhere, and especially in conference play.  I think the new Bowl system waters the emotion by matching up two teams with similar records, but with little history.
First, I would argue that the game has ALWAYS been much about emotion.  WVU didn't just execute better than OU, they clearly wanted it more.  Second, the game will continue to be about athletes.   Any offense/defense scheme you can come up with can be better executed with better athletes.  Period.  If you choose not to run said more effective scheme, that's your own fault.  Third,  execution is a HUGE factor.  I don't care what scheme you want to run, you need to execute it properly or be prepared to fail. Teams like Missouri and WVU didn't just lay the wood because they ran spreads... they executed better, they DO have atheletes, and they flat out wanted it more.  That's ALWAYS been the story of football and ALWAYS will be.
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Soooie21

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2008, 06:28:08 pm »

Fast break football...no more pounding it inside to the big man..
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2008, 06:30:01 pm »

First, I would argue that the game has ALWAYS been much about emotion.  WVU didn't just execute better than OU, they clearly wanted it more.  Second, the game will continue to be about athletes.   Any offense/defense scheme you can come up with can be better executed with better athletes.  Period.  If you choose not to run said more effective scheme, that's your own fault.  Third,  execution is a HUGE factor.  I don't care what scheme you want to run, you need to execute it properly or be prepared to fail. Teams like Missouri and WVU didn't just lay the wood because they ran spreads... they executed better, they DO have atheletes, and they flat out wanted it more.  That's ALWAYS been the story of football and ALWAYS will be.
Gus, emotion used to carry you so far and late into the second half things would usually straiten out. Once in a while there would be a big upset. This has been a crazy season, the craziest ever, don't you agree. App St - Mich was the craziest but there was a bunch of others. In the real world cause and effect rule but it almost seems to me that this year the quantum world's Uncertainty Principle has taken over. Of course that is hyperbole but strange things are happening. You young guys are of course accepting it and going on finding logical reasons for what is happening. I am having a harder time than you young turks but maybe I will catch up . By the way I have been one of Nutt's longest time critic's going back to 2003. See Razorsox reply 116 makes perfect sense to you young guys yet I have a problem with what New England is doing.

 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 06:37:13 pm by Theolesnort »
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Fire Numb Nutts!!!

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #118 on: January 03, 2008, 08:19:40 pm »

Wow I don't know anymore but after last night and the Oklahoma debacle I question just where football is going with the Spread Offense and the wide splits and spreading the field where the most physically talented team is no longer winning the vast majority of the time. Yes, they still win most of the time but it seems that a physically under talented team can over come almost any obstacle when they are at a magical level and the other team is just playing at their average level, Last years Boise State - Oklahoma game is an example and Oklahoma - West Virginia is another example but to a lesser extent. Yes I know West Virgina is talented but I watched them to much this year to think they were more talented than Oklahoma. Same way with our Missouri game, there is no way that Missouri is that much more talented than Ark. The truth is they are pretty close in over all talent but better coached and they were at that magical level much like West Virginia was last night. With the rule changes of the last couple of decades it almost seems that the game is evolving into flag football that allows for blocking (above the waist) and tackling. The rules are getting to complex and open to intepertation by the refs. Last night I watched while the refs called almost everything they could see holding. Tuesday in the Cotton Bowl they let it almost all go except in the most extreme  cases. My point is not to rake the refs over the coals but to point out how when they first allowed players to get their hands away from their body to block they only allowed the players to only push. Now they are grabbing and even getting their arms outside the defenders chest area and even hooking their arms around to the back grabbing and getting away with it. It is becoming a wrasslin match on the lines and this is not the football that I grew up loving. I would almost be willing to go back to blocking below the waist and getting the hands back into the body next to the chest. For sure passing would drop off significantly and defense would come back into vogue. The way things are going ther e is going to be no such thing as consistent great defense for even the best of them are going to give up a ton of points from time to time when the other team is at that magical level. Before you point it out I will beat you to it, yes I am old and old fashioned and getting out of touch with the new reality but I do miss the grand old game of real football. Don't get me wrong because as this seemingy arms race escalates I do embrace Petrino because you do have to keep abreast of the new game today but I must admit I am confused where this new game is going and will the craziness of this season become even more crazy? sigh


You sound like Reggie Herring -- and we all know how he fared against the "High School" spread no huddle offense. He kept the passing more or less in check but made Mizzou's mediocre rb look like a Heisman winner. Oh, and Reggie's peewee offense sucked pretty hard, too. I'll take "High School" over "Peewee" any day.

Like the man said, adapt or perish.
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Mikey

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #119 on: January 03, 2008, 08:49:09 pm »

I would rather have an offense that leans toward passing, but good backs like DMAC and FJ will always have a place on anyone's team.  I just want a team that has a chance when they get behind.
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hog.goblin

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #120 on: January 03, 2008, 08:56:28 pm »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.

Keep in mind NE is 13th in rushing out of 32 teams and getting 115 yards per game.  Maroney was a great back in college and turning into a good one in the pros.  He was injured for 3 games or likely would have had a 1,000 yard season.

That being said, I'm 34 and love my Bears and Giants from the late 80s.  Amazing defense and cram it down your throat running game.  I loved it.  And it worked because both teams were a threat to throw.  McMahon and Sims were no Montana, but they could make plays.
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old fella

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #121 on: January 03, 2008, 08:57:42 pm »

I enjoy the recievers being used for something other than shuttling in plays.
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julie

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #122 on: January 03, 2008, 08:59:06 pm »

I agree with some of what you said, but Missouri was not at a magical level against us offensively. They simply made adjustments and ran the ball seeing we only had three people up on the line....
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