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Author Topic: Is This Real Football Anymore?  (Read 3978 times)

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Theolesnort

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Is This Real Football Anymore?
« on: January 03, 2008, 11:32:03 am »

 Wow I don't know anymore but after last night and the Oklahoma debacle I question just where football is going with the Spread Offense and the wide splits and spreading the field where the most physically talented team is no longer winning the vast majority of the time. Yes, they still win most of the time but it seems that a physically under talented team can over come almost any obstacle when they are at a magical level and the other team is just playing at their average level, Last years Boise State - Oklahoma game is an example and Oklahoma - West Virginia is another example but to a lesser extent. Yes I know West Virgina is talented but I watched them to much this year to think they were more talented than Oklahoma. Same way with our Missouri game, there is no way that Missouri is that much more talented than Ark. The truth is they are pretty close in over all talent but better coached and they were at that magical level much like West Virginia was last night. With the rule changes of the last couple of decades it almost seems that the game is evolving into flag football that allows for blocking (above the waist) and tackling. The rules are getting to complex and open to intepertation by the refs. Last night I watched while the refs called almost everything they could see holding. Tuesday in the Cotton Bowl they let it almost all go except in the most extreme  cases. My point is not to rake the refs over the coals but to point out how when they first allowed players to get their hands away from their body to block they only allowed the players to only push. Now they are grabbing and even getting their arms outside the defenders chest area and even hooking their arms around to the back grabbing and getting away with it. It is becoming a wrasslin match on the lines and this is not the football that I grew up loving. I would almost be willing to go back to blocking below the waist and getting the hands back into the body next to the chest. For sure passing would drop off significantly and defense would come back into vogue. The way things are going ther e is going to be no such thing as consistent great defense for even the best of them are going to give up a ton of points from time to time when the other team is at that magical level. Before you point it out I will beat you to it, yes I am old and old fashioned and getting out of touch with the new reality but I do miss the grand old game of real football. Don't get me wrong because as this seemingy arms race escalates I do embrace Petrino because you do have to keep abreast of the new game today but I must admit I am confused where this new game is going and will the craziness of this season become even more crazy? sigh
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Silver Hog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 11:36:48 am »

Evolve or die.  I guess folk had the same laments back when the forward pass was introduced, and then god forbid the leather helmet!
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razorback93

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 11:40:18 am »

I personally like it, especially if you buy into the theory that we will never be able to recuit like the big boys (which I don't).  I think the good defenses won't be judged solely by points allowed.  I think it will be more about how many turnovers they force.  I compare it to bball in a way.  Nolan is considered a defensive coach, yet his teams gave up more points that Eddie's teams did.  But Nolan's defense was designed to turn you over and get more possessions resulting in easy scores.  Sometimes, he got burned, but his goal was to get you playing faster that you were comfortable.  I see football defenses doing something similar.  They might give up some plays, but if they force 3 or 4 TOs then that's an acceptable gamble.
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 11:42:52 am »

Evolve or die.  I guess folk had the same laments back when the forward pass was introduced, and then god forbid the leather helmet!
Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.
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The Marmot

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 11:43:35 am »

As athletes get bigger and stronger, the game has to change and evolve to suit their skills.
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 11:44:26 am »

I personally like it, especially if you buy into the theory that we will never be able to recuit like the big boys (which I don't).  I think the good defenses won't be judged solely by points allowed.  I think it will be more about how many turnovers they force.  I compare it to bball in a way.  Nolan is considered a defensive coach, yet his teams gave up more points that Eddie's teams did.  But Nolan's defense was designed to turn you over and get more possessions resulting in easy scores.  Sometimes, he got burned, but his goal was to get you playing faster that you were comfortable.  I see football defenses doing something similar.  They might give up some plays, but if they force 3 or 4 TOs then that's an acceptable gamble.
A very perceptive post. I don't have to like it but that does seem to be where we are headed.
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Hogs4Ever

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 11:45:29 am »

I agree that the blocking rules need to be cleaned up.  Too much is left up to the whim of the refs.  Stop allowing blockers to grab shirts.
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tusked

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2008, 11:45:46 am »

Those fask mask will never make it.....can't see through them.
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HOG RED UMP

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2008, 11:49:01 am »

As athletes get bigger and stronger, the game has to change and evolve to suit their skills.
See also, the NBA
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hawgknockers

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 11:49:18 am »

Your post hits the nail on the head and points out exactly our problem.  We have failed to evolve while those around us have.  They have prospered from innovation while we have toiled in mediocrity with a 1970's based offense. 

"Wow I don't know anymore but after last night and the Oklahoma debacle I question just where football is going with the Spread Offense and the wide splits and spreading the field where the most physically talented team is no longer winning the vast majority of the time. Yes, they still win most of the time but it seems that a physically under talented team can over come almost any obstacle when they are at a magical level and the other team is just playing at their average level"
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WilsonHog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 11:50:50 am »

I hope we never get to the point where football is more about finesse that about just being able to line up and physically whip your opponent's ass.
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Choctaw Hog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 11:51:19 am »

I imagine similar thoughts were prevalent with the advent of the forward pass.
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EnemyOfMojo

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 11:51:25 am »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.

Well, I hear there's a coach in Oxford who still plays ball like it's the 1950s, you might check him out.
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Tomhog™

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2008, 11:52:03 am »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.

You know this thread makes me wonder when the Heisman will go to a running back again?  QB's seem to be the only position that wins the award any more because of this paradigm shift in offensive philosophy.
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hogrider

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2008, 11:52:25 am »

Georgia had an answer for the spread offense. It's called good defense. You get to the qb and cover the recievers.
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razorback93

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2008, 11:53:47 am »

A very perceptive post. I don't have to like it but that does seem to be where we are headed.
Hang in there.  It will probably swing back the other way in time.  Some of this spread stuff is not new.  It think a lot of teams did something similar in the way backs, 20's and 30's.  Wasn't there a Hog coach in the 30's that flung the ball around, for the times anyway?
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Tomhog™

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2008, 11:53:49 am »

I hope we never get to the point where football is more about finesse that about just being able to line up and physically whip your opponent's ass.

Nothing to me is more satisfying than watching a team run the ball straight up the gut with the opposing defense unable to stop it.
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PolishPigPower

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2008, 11:54:37 am »

It is absolutely real football.  The same argument could have been made about the wishbone at one time.  Look at Navy and Air Force, for example.  They've ran the wishbone with smaller, less athletic players because they believe it to be the best way they can even the playing field against better opponents.  The spread offense creates more one-on-one matchups in space, so from that perspective, the better athlete should be able to make more plays.  But what we see are that teams who can remain disciplined and execute properly wind up in better situations, more often that not.  Well, discipline and proper execution have always been key ingredients to the game.  So when we find a team that can do those things with the better athletes, we see a tremendous football team.  That, IMHO, is still real football.

Besides, someone is cooking up tomorrow's great new offensive scheme as I type this.  If you don't like the style of play, just wait a few years... someone will come up with something even better.
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HOG RED UMP

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2008, 11:54:46 am »

I hope we never get to the point where football is more about finesse that about just being able to line up and physically whip your opponent's ass.
A man after my own heart..................
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pedrothelion

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2008, 11:55:25 am »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.
IMO the reason that the New England offense is so successful is because they have QB that is going to go down as one of the best ever and a WR that is a once in a life time athlete.  I really don't think that most NFL teams will be able to play that kind of offensive football with the same success.   

Also, and I'm sure you know this, football cyclical in nature.  Some defense will eventually be contrived to slow down the spread and the offenses will make an adjustments and so on...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:01:10 pm by pedrothelion »
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BartIV

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 11:55:53 am »

The skill position, coach jumping, and player transfers are changing the game for football.

Especially, the lack of defense.
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HOG RED UMP

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2008, 11:57:19 am »

Nothing to me is more satisfying than watching a team run the ball straight up the gut with the opposing defense unable to stop it.
Or how about the old Green Bay power sweeps?   Thing is, with the size and speed of the defenses today, it is just dang hard to eliminate the pursuit.
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The Marmot

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 11:58:13 am »

I hope we never get to the point where football is more about finesse that about just being able to line up and physically whip your opponent's ass.

We are almost there. But like anything else, once the pass-happy spread schemes are widely figured out, running the ball will become sexy again.
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Arkapigdiesel

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 11:59:04 am »

The days of having better talent doesn't equate to a win.  Coaching, and schemes are of equal importance.  Adapt, or watch Air Force and the triple option attack.

I'll choose to adapt.

We finally have a piece of the puzzle with the hiring of Coach Petrino to evolve into what football is now-a-days.
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 11:59:16 am »

Well, I hear there's a coach in Oxford who still plays ball like it's the 1950s, you might check him out.
I didn't deserve that, but then maybe I did. ;D
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budcampbellfan

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2008, 12:01:02 pm »

New offenses come and go.  When the defensive minds figure out how to handle it, there will be a new one designed eventually.  The pendelum effect.   We need a coach and staff that stays with the times.  I think we have one.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:02:48 pm by budcampbellfan »
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LZH

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 12:02:27 pm »

My point is not to rake the refs over the coals but to point out how when they first allowed players to get their hands away from their body to block they only allowed the players to only push. Now they are grabbing and even getting their arms outside the defenders chest area and even hooking their arms around to the back grabbing and getting away with it. It is becoming a wrasslin match on the lines and this is not the football that I grew up loving.

I'm glad you said that, 'cause I have thought the same for a long time...(BTW, I LOVED watching the wishbone run like a machine if someone was really good at it).  I don't wanna go back 25 years either, but you do make a good point...whether or not that's played any part of what's evolved into the spread, I don't know.  But the Run-n-Shoot didn't last, so I wonder if this will play out in five years or so when DC's & recruiting gets it figured out, like everything else.
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HOG RED UMP

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2008, 12:02:59 pm »

We are almost there. But like anything else, once the pass-happy spread schemes are widely figured out, running the ball will become sexy again.
When the defense has the speed to keep up with the speed of the offense, and the scheme matches the intricacies of the offense, it can be contained.   OU could match the speed of Tulsa
earlier this year, and Tx Tech as well(the intricacies of Tech's offense, along w/Leach's familiarity of OU's system, paved the way for this upset), but they lacked the ability to match both the speed and power of West Virginia.  Their inability to stifle, pressure, and contain the QB proved fatal.
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10thPlanet

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 12:03:39 pm »

It was a lot of fun watching watching Air Force run the option last week, but those days are gone. When Frank Broyles finally admited it on national TV, I was blown away. It really makes you wonder if he was behind Nutt's offensive philosophies the past couple of years.
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hogsanity

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 12:03:58 pm »

IT is the same thing that happened with baseball and basketball and even hockey.  They have made changes to allow for more offense because thats what sells tickets.  Do you think fb would be nearly as popular if most games were 13-7 and rushing yards were 70% of the game?
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LZH

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2008, 12:06:31 pm »

It was a lot of fun watching watching Air Force run the option last week, but those days are gone.

They still run it?  I thought they fell in line a few years back.  (It's still fun to watch).
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irishman

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2008, 12:07:59 pm »

We are almost there. But like anything else, once the pass-happy spread schemes are widely figured out, running the ball will become sexy again.

Thats my theory too. Once everyone starts playing the finesse style then one team can go get the biggest and most physical recruits and swing the pendulum back the other way. Every style of football has an inherent weakness to counter it.
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10thPlanet

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2008, 12:10:41 pm »

They still run it?  I thought they fell in line a few years back.  (It's still fun to watch).
Yep, it's a thing of beauty to watch, until you have a turnover or 3rd and long. They have added a shotgun with two backs in the backfield usually ending in a hand off.
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2008, 12:12:34 pm »

It was a lot of fun watching watching Air Force run the option last week, but those days are gone. When Frank Broyles finally admited it on national TV, I was blown away. It really makes you wonder if he was behind Nutt's offensive philosophies the past couple of years.
Broyles's messed up big time the season before. My ticket has me a seat in the front around the 15 yard line North end. I was watching him pace at close range. Mike Irwin came by and we spoke briefly. Mike said Broyles was not pleased. He changed his mind about the new direction we were going that fast. He had the best guy for the new cutting edge technology. After a quarter of ball against USC he was ready to go back to the past. He is way out of reality to our chagrin. We were more than fortunate to get Petrino to make up for his mistake.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:32:12 pm by Theolesnort »
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pcrouch3809

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2008, 12:13:14 pm »

The NEW style of play is like flag football.  Not physical, and boring to watch.  However it does put points on the board, so I can't argue against it.  I like Petrino's system, because he still relies on the running game.
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hogsanity

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2008, 12:16:09 pm »

The NEW style of play is like flag football.  Not physical, and boring to watch.  However it does put points on the board, so I can't argue against it.  I like Petrino's system, because he still relies on the running game.

Funny, you say it is boring, yet it puts points on the board. 
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Theolesnort

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2008, 12:16:16 pm »

Thats my theory too. Once everyone starts playing the finesse style then one team can go get the biggest and most physical recruits and swing the pendulum back the other way. Every style of football has an inherent weakness to counter it.
Normally that would be true but the new blocking rules have changed the game forever. To even things up they will have to let the dbacks mug the receivers since they have more time to get free.
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keithf

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2008, 12:19:41 pm »

It is getting to where a traditional power defense gets smoked by a good spread offense (example, last night).  To adapt, defenses have to be more vesatile.  They have to be able to load up with power when necessary, but they have to have a large amount of skilled d-backs when the face a good spread offense.  The schools with the greater recruiting power will eventually prevail.

Arkansas had a chance to be a step ahead on the spread philosophy, now everyone is doing it.  Let say that CBP turns out to be as advertised, with good players tha can run a power type spread offense.  Where does that put us?  I say we will be greatly improved, but still loose 3 or 4 games a year.  That is just the reality of the SEC.  We may be getting better, but the big boys aren't going to lay down. 
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jlhog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2008, 12:21:24 pm »

I have to wonder if a smaller, faster defensive line that shoots the gaps every time wouldn't close up the spread some.  anyone seen that tried?
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LZH

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2008, 12:22:21 pm »

Yep, it's a thing of beauty to watch, until you have a turnover or 3rd and long. They have added a shotgun with two backs in the backfield usually ending in a hand off.

Come to think of it, Hatfield's FlexBone was the first time I remember snapping the ball as players were going into the backfield while still in motion instead of the usual RB coming out of the backfield to the wing and still in motion at the snap.

Probably has been done for decades, but at the time I thought it was kinda creative.  I saw some Single Wing stuff in HS in the early '80's, but don't remember any D1 CFB teams do it...maybe before my time.
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creekhog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2008, 12:23:06 pm »

IT is the same thing that happened with baseball and basketball and even hockey.  They have made changes to allow for more offense because thats what sells tickets.  Do you think fb would be nearly as popular if most games were 13-7 and rushing yards were 70% of the game?


Bingo we have a winner, Let them change the rule in college to 2 feet in bounds for recievers you would see a drop off in Offense, but that won't happen.

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CowHog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2008, 12:23:15 pm »

Whatever it takes to win, you have to be innovative, and like every other fad in sports in a few years the spread offense will fade when its weaknesses are exploited and a new scheme comes into vogue
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Silver Hog

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2008, 12:23:35 pm »

Yes, but I really detest what New England is doing to football. Do you realize that they really don't need a running back to win and that is sad. People like McFadden better learn how to receive the pass or even his stock will drop.

I guess that makes Hillis a better pro back since he has good hands.

No different really than option quarterbacks never going pro due to not having passing skills.  This same topic really bothers my friend too, he loved the wishbone.  But changes come and go, and if everybody gets pass happy, maybe in 10-15 years a wishbone team will run over everbody since the philosophy will radically change.
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macgyver hawg

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2008, 12:24:10 pm »

No one teaches or coaches fundementals anymore.
Players don't tackle - that's been the main problem in these blowouts.

I also don't think OU was all that.
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biggiepiggie

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2008, 12:24:49 pm »

Wow I don't know anymore but after last night and the Oklahoma debacle I question just where football is going with the Spread Offense and the wide splits and spreading the field where the most physically talented team is no longer winning the vast majority of the time. Yes, they still win most of the time but it seems that a physically under talented team can over come almost any obstacle when they are at a magical level and the other team is just playing at their average level, Last years Boise State - Oklahoma game is an example and Oklahoma - West Virginia is another example but to a lesser extent. Yes I know West Virgina is talented but I watched them to much this year to think they were more talented than Oklahoma. Same way with our Missouri game, there is no way that Missouri is that much more talented than Ark. The truth is they are pretty close in over all talent but better coached and they were at that magical level much like West Virginia was last night. With the rule changes of the last couple of decades it almost seems that the game is evolving into flag football that allows for blocking (above the waist) and tackling. The rules are getting to complex and open to intepertation by the refs. Last night I watched while the refs called almost everything they could see holding. Tuesday in the Cotton Bowl they let it almost all go except in the most extreme  cases. My point is not to rake the refs over the coals but to point out how when they first allowed players to get their hands away from their body to block they only allowed the players to only push. Now they are grabbing and even getting their arms outside the defenders chest area and even hooking their arms around to the back grabbing and getting away with it. It is becoming a wrasslin match on the lines and this is not the football that I grew up loving. I would almost be willing to go back to blocking below the waist and getting the hands back into the body next to the chest. For sure passing would drop off significantly and defense would come back into vogue. The way things are going ther e is going to be no such thing as consistent great defense for even the best of them are going to give up a ton of points from time to time when the other team is at that magical level. Before you point it out I will beat you to it, yes I am old and old fashioned and getting out of touch with the new reality but I do miss the grand old game of real football. Don't get me wrong because as this seemingy arms race escalates I do embrace Petrino because you do have to keep abreast of the new game today but I must admit I am confused where this new game is going and will the craziness of this season become even more crazy? sigh

I agree.  The rules were changed to favor the offenses.  It looks crazy.  I liked
it better the other way.
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LZH

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2008, 12:25:49 pm »

maybe in 10-15 years a wishbone team will run over everbody since the philosophy will radically change.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
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fester

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2008, 12:27:38 pm »

I hope we never get to the point where football is more about finesse that about just being able to line up and physically whip your opponent's ass.

Plus one to this! I'm really starting to miss the days when football was won or loss in the trenches!
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hogsanity

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2008, 12:28:43 pm »

As was pointed out, this was not a simple case of a "new" offense coming about.  This was brought about by a continual change in rules that favored the offense.  Just like in baseball when they lowered the mound and began squeezing the strike zone.  Basketball getting rid of handchecking, and widening the lane, and adding the 3pt shot. 
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hog.goblin

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2008, 12:30:08 pm »

The spread offense is temporary (as the prevailing successful style - see the option, west coast, I formation, etc. - they have all come and gone as the most popular & successful offense).

Defenses always find a way to stop it because the offense is always at a disadvantage.  The option and spread have lasted the longest because the QB becomes more of a threat to run.  When the defense catches up and starts laying NFL style hits on these QBs again (see the downfall of the option), the spread will become just another good offense. 

Any offense can be successful but only if executed well and balanced to both the run and pass.
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hawgslop00

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Re: Is This Real Football Anymore?
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2008, 12:31:21 pm »

We are almost there. But like anything else, once the pass-happy spread schemes are widely figured out, running the ball will become sexy again.

This is a good post.  Look at Hawaii, they thought they had it figured out.  They spent all this time running their spread offense fighting their way into a BCS Bowl only to get there and "line up and get their ass whooped" by bigger and more talented players.  They got handled pretty well now its back to the drawing board for them.  But I do think it will be awhile before "running the ball will become sexy again."
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