Bobby Knight on Recruiting

[WilsonHog]

"The credibility people give to national rankings of high school players absolutely baffles me.

To the best of my ability, I can't even imagine a coach, ever, who was capable of saying, 'This kid is the thirty-second best or the thirty-fourth best small forward in the country.' I'm talking about a coach. I'm talking about a guy like me who has coached in college for 30 years: to rate this kid as the best prospect, or the twelfth-best prospect, or the eightieth-best prospect. That's impossible.

Most of these guys who rate kids have no concept of what it takes to put a team together.

But they give a ranking to each kid, and that sells newspapers or publications, and it's gospel. Meanwhile, nobody ever follows through and sees how often they were right, and how more often they were wrong.

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

So many things have happened that make it tough for a kid to keep everything in perspective as he advances in development as a person and a player - the ratings systems, the McDonald's All-Star games, the elevation of those kids at 17 or 18 years old to a national status that a Jerry West or an Oscar Robertson didn't achieve until he had played three or four all-star years in the NBA. And when it finally did come to a West or a Robertson, he had earned it, rather than having it conferred on him by some moron with a pen."           

[Oliver]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

         

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

[hogfan064]

There is no way to know how an 18 year old will develop physically and mentally through 4 years of college. There is no way to know how a guy who's playing against far inferior 16-17 year olds will play when he's playing against equal or better 18-23 year olds.  Recruiting rankings are only out there to make $$. 

[Since 1894]

That is the only saving grace we can hang on too as this recruiting season comes to an end.

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

David Robinson grew 7 inches while at Navy

[missippihog]

Same thing I have been saying. Ranking recruits is overrated. Not irrelevant but overrated.

[Conway Cool Daddy]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

[jamie72921]

I love Bobby Knight.

[Oliver]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

         

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

David Robinson grew 7 inches while at Navy

And Larry Bird went to Indiana St., your point?

I imagine they didn't even having recruiting rankings back then, but if they did, I highly doubt that those guys were 2 star recruits.

[311Hog]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

Indiana St.


Btw i agree with Bob Knight on this one, people are making "big stars" out of kids before they are even old enough to drive. I mean yesterday on ESPN 2 what do you see? High school basketball with the JOrdan kids, and they got spanked. But again its HS basketball you dont play that high of a level of Ball in HS, and some of these kids are being crowned as the greatest ever before they have even had a chance to earn it.

I think what Bob Knight is pointing to is there are a few players that are head and shoulders above the rest, your Labron's and your Durant's etc, and then you have upwards of 100 to 200 other kids that are indistinguishable from the other, and any given night they can put up 30 or the donut. And these services try and put an order to them when there is no legit way to do so.

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

Indiana St.

No, Bird originally went to Indiana and then transferred to Indiana State

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

David Robinson grew 7 inches while at Navy

And Larry Bird went to Indiana St., your point?

I imagine they didn't even having recruiting rankings back then, but if they did, I highly doubt that those guys were 2 star recruits.

There were recruiting magazines back then and they did rank players.  It's been going on for a long time. 

As for my point I was stating Malone wasn't highly recruited and that Robinson's growth shows you that you never know how big a kid will grow during his time in college.

[Conway Cool Daddy]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

Indiana St.

No, Bird originally went to Indiana and then transferred to Indiana State

Yeah, can you picture Knight chewing Bird's ass? 

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

Indiana St.

No, Bird originally went to Indiana and then transferred to Indiana State

Yeah, can you picture Knight chewing Bird's ass? 

Bird couldn't deal with all the attention and the big university so he left.  If I'm not mistaken he also fathered a child at this time and that had something to do with it also.  Bird and his daughter for years have struggled with their relationship.

[TX_razorhog]

It's staggering to me that for a hall of fame coach to say something with this much merit, people still miss his point.  You'd think with everything this state has had to listen to over a player's "potential", his awards, etc etc, that so many would blindly argue whether or not Bird or Malone would be 2 star recruits. . .

I think Knight's statement should be published in every sports section of every paper in the U.S.  It's at least some hope for people to find perspective.   

[WilsonHog]

Here's my favorite Bobby Knight recruiting story. At the end of his show one Sunday he mentioned a Yugoslavian player named Ivan Renko, a 6'-8", 230-lb forward who had indicated he was coming to Indiana. Knight was very pleased to hear of the commitment.

Let Knight tell the rest of the story.

"The waters exploded. Guru after guru commented. Some, to their credit, were honest - Bob Gibbons comes to mind. He and a few others - there are some good guys in the lot - said they had never heard of the guy but would check. Others couldn't do that, couldn't let themselves seem to have been caught unprepared. Several said that they knew about this Renko kid, had files on him, and they either agreed that he was an outstanding player or said how much I  overrated him.

My favorites were the ones in the group who claimed to have actually seen Ivan Renko play and offered an instant, detailed evaluation of his skills and his future as a college player.

There was, of course, no Ivan Renko. I made up everything about him on the broadcast, and in a few follow-up comments that kept it going. I wanted to make the point that so much of what people pay money to get from recruiting experts is sheer bullsh*t."       

[Oliver]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

         

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

David Robinson grew 7 inches while at Navy

And Larry Bird went to Indiana St., your point?

I imagine they didn't even having recruiting rankings back then, but if they did, I highly doubt that those guys were 2 star recruits.

There were recruiting magazines back then and they did rank players.  It's been going on for a long time. 

As for my point I was stating Malone wasn't highly recruited and that Robinson's growth shows you that you never know how big a kid will grow during his time in college.

Gotcha.  I understand what Knight is saying about Bird, Knight, and Chaney.  But what about the ones that they got right...LeBron, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, etc., etc.

There are diamonds in the rough that recruiting rankings miss but most of the time they are very good tools in evaluating talent.

[hogsNbeer]

I agree........ That's why you have to have a great coach..........  *s really dont' mean just a whole lot if you have GREAT coaching......... Give NUTT a 5* QB and give a 3* to Steve Spurrier and see who develops the most in 4 years..........   It's all in coaching.......If you can't develop players, then it doesn't really matter what #* the player is..........      But that's how they grade recruiting classes...... 

[Oliver]

I agree........ That's why you have to have a great coach..........  *s really dont' mean just a whole lot if you have GREAT coaching......... Give NUTT a 5* QB and give a 3* to Steve Spurrier and see who develops the most in 4 years..........   It's all in coaching.......If you can't develop players, then it doesn't really matter what #* the player is..........      But that's how they grade recruiting classes...... 

Actually this might be more important.

[hogfan064]

Here's my favorite Bobby Knight recruiting story. At the end of his show one Sunday he mentioned a Yugoslavian player named Ivan Renko, a 6'-8", 230-lb forward who had indicated he was coming to Indiana. Knight was very pleased to hear of the commitment.

Let Knight tell the rest of the story.

"The waters exploded. Guru after guru commented. Some, to their credit, were honest - Bob Gibbons comes to mind. He and a few others - there are some good guys in the lot - said they had never heard of the guy but would check. Others couldn't do that, couldn't let themselves seem to have been caught unprepared. Several said that they knew about this Renko kid, had files on him, and they either agreed that he was an outstanding player or said how much I  overrated him.

My favorites were the ones in the group who claimed to have actually seen Ivan Renko play and offered an instant, detailed evaluation of his skills and his future as a college player.

There was, of course, no Ivan Renko. I made up everything about him on the broadcast, and in a few follow-up comments that kept it going. I wanted to make the point that so much of what people pay money to get from recruiting experts is sheer bullsh*t."       

That's a great story

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

David Robinson grew 7 inches while at Navy

And Larry Bird went to Indiana St., your point?

I imagine they didn't even having recruiting rankings back then, but if they did, I highly doubt that those guys were 2 star recruits.

There were recruiting magazines back then and they did rank players.  It's been going on for a long time. 

As for my point I was stating Malone wasn't highly recruited and that Robinson's growth shows you that you never know how big a kid will grow during his time in college.

Gotcha.  I understand what Knight is saying about Bird, Knight, and Chaney.  But what about the ones that they got right...LeBron, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, etc., etc.

There are diamonds in the rough that recruiting rankings miss but most of the time they are very good tools in evaluating talent.

Michael Jordan wasn't all that obvious.  After all he was cut from his highschool team at one point. Shaq was actually thought to be the #2 big guy at LSU behind Stanley Roberts. 

[hogfan064]

I agree........ That's why you have to have a great coach..........  *s really dont' mean just a whole lot if you have GREAT coaching......... Give NUTT a 5* QB and give a 3* to Steve Spurrier and see who develops the most in 4 years..........   It's all in coaching.......If you can't develop players, then it doesn't really matter what #* the player is..........      But that's how they grade recruiting classes...... 

Luckily I think we have a great developer of players on defense.  Reggie Herring has a very impressive record of turning nobodies into NFL first rounders.  Nutt will never be mistaken for producing great QBs.

[Tammany Tom]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

Larry Bird was offered by every major school. He signed with Bob Knight's own Indiana Hoosiers and transfered after arriving in Bloomington realizing that Indiana was too big for him. Karl Malone, too was offered by every major school, but wanted to stay close to home and signed with LA Tech. LSU wanted him bad.

Michael Jordan wasn't all that obvious.  After all he was cut from his highschool team at one point. Shaq was actually thought to be the #2 big guy at LSU behind Stanley Roberts. 

Michael Jordan may have been cut from his high school team when he was a freshman, but by the time he was a jr and sr in high school, he became a HS All-American. Everybody wanted Jordan. Shaq was the MAN at LSU the minute he walked onto the campus.

[hogsNbeer]

I agree........ That's why you have to have a great coach..........  *s really dont' mean just a whole lot if you have GREAT coaching......... Give NUTT a 5* QB and give a 3* to Steve Spurrier and see who develops the most in 4 years..........   It's all in coaching.......If you can't develop players, then it doesn't really matter what #* the player is..........      But that's how they grade recruiting classes...... 

Luckily I think we have a great developer of players on defense.  Reggie Herring has a very impressive record of turning nobodies into NFL first rounders.  Nutt will never be mistaken for producing great QBs.

Exactly.......

[Oklahawg]

I think folks on a message board shouldn't argue with Coach Knight about basketball recruits. My computer monitor is new--I don't want a chair thrown through it!

[hogfan064]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

Larry Bird was offered by every major school. He signed with Bob Knight's own Indiana Hoosiers and transfered after arriving in Bloomington realizing that Indiana was too big for him. Karl Malone, too was offered by every major school, but wanted to stay close to home and signed with LA Tech. LSU wanted him bad.

Michael Jordan wasn't all that obvious.  After all he was cut from his highschool team at one point. Shaq was actually thought to be the #2 big guy at LSU behind Stanley Roberts. 

Michael Jordan may have been cut from his high school team when he was a freshman, but by the time he was a jr and sr in high school, he became a HS All-American. Everybody wanted Jordan. Shaq was the MAN at LSU the minute he walked onto the campus.

Shaq was to be behind Stanley Roberts at first. Roberts continued to struggle with weight throughout his career and never was the player he could've been. 

Jordan is a perfect example of a kid that developed later than others.  Even after he left UNC noone ever saw him becoming the greatest player of all time.  If they did he wouldn't have been drafted behind Sam Bowie

[Oliver]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

Larry Bird was offered by every major school. He signed with Bob Knight's own Indiana Hoosiers and transfered after arriving in Bloomington realizing that Indiana was too big for him. Karl Malone, too was offered by every major school, but wanted to stay close to home and signed with LA Tech. LSU wanted him bad.

Michael Jordan wasn't all that obvious.  After all he was cut from his highschool team at one point. Shaq was actually thought to be the #2 big guy at LSU behind Stanley Roberts. 

Michael Jordan may have been cut from his high school team when he was a freshman, but by the time he was a jr and sr in high school, he became a HS All-American. Everybody wanted Jordan. Shaq was the MAN at LSU the minute he walked onto the campus.

Shaq was to be behind Stanley Roberts at first. Roberts continued to struggle with weight throughout his career and never was the player he could've been. 

Jordan is a perfect example of a kid that developed later than others.  Even after he left UNC noone ever saw him becoming the greatest player of all time.  If they did he wouldn't have been drafted behind Sam Bowie

Jordan was drafted 3rd overall.  I doubt many people thought that he would be one of the greatest players of all time but they definitely thought he was going to be a good NBA player.  Hell Dwayne Wade was drafted behind Darko but a lot of people thought that Wade would end up being a better player. 

[hoggystyle78]

One big difference between Bobby Knight and our coaches ( Heath and Nutt ), they need all the help they can get cause they couldn't hold Knight's jockstrap as a HC.

[Urgh]

Scottie Pippen played for UCA and Derek Fisher played for UALR.  I wonder what they were rated???  Makes Nolan look like a Nutt!!!

[hog caller]

i agree with coach Night. he for sure knows what he says even if Wally don't think so ,HA

he also doesn't care exactly how he says it.

[Tone]

Scottie Pippen played for UCA and Derek Fisher played for UALR.  I wonder what they were rated???  Makes Nolan look like a Nutt!!!

Pippen didn't play his first year, he was the manager.  He only got to play the soph year because there wasn't enough players to practice during the fall semester.  He did grow 4-5 inches during this time.  I was the UCA class of 87 and started the same time he did in 83.  Lived in Minton hall (old athletic dorm) and he used to wear the same members only jacket (beige) every day. 

[HognotinMemphis]

Here's my favorite Bobby Knight recruiting story. At the end of his show one Sunday he mentioned a Yugoslavian player named Ivan Renko, a 6'-8", 230-lb forward who had indicated he was coming to Indiana. Knight was very pleased to hear of the commitment.

Let Knight tell the rest of the story.

"The waters exploded. Guru after guru commented. Some, to their credit, were honest - Bob Gibbons comes to mind. He and a few others - there are some good guys in the lot - said they had never heard of the guy but would check. Others couldn't do that, couldn't let themselves seem to have been caught unprepared. Several said that they knew about this Renko kid, had files on him, and they either agreed that he was an outstanding player or said how much I  overrated him.

My favorites were the ones in the group who claimed to have actually seen Ivan Renko play and offered an instant, detailed evaluation of his skills and his future as a college player.

There was, of course, no Ivan Renko. I made up everything about him on the broadcast, and in a few follow-up comments that kept it going. I wanted to make the point that so much of what people pay money to get from recruiting experts is sheer bullsh*t."       

Can you say, "Otis"?  If you pay money for anything he produces, well, that's comedy at its purest.

[softballguy8]

there are a handful of people who weren't noticed ... "gems in the rough", if you will.

But most of the good ones ARE NOTICED. And ARE RANKED. Just ask Reggie Bush, John David Booty, Chris Simms, Adrian Peterson, Greg Oden, Corliss Williamson ... do I need to keep going?

[arsuperhog]

Didn't Malone orally committ to Arkansas, only to back out because he wanted to stay closer to him mother in Summerfield, Louisiana?

[Bob from Dumas]

I agree........ That's why you have to have a great coach..........  *s really dont' mean just a whole lot if you have GREAT coaching......... Give NUTT a 5* QB and give a 3* to Steve Spurrier and see who develops the most in 4 years..........   It's all in coaching.......If you can't develop players, then it doesn't really matter what #* the player is..........      But that's how they grade recruiting classes...... 

Great post.  This is exactly the problem at Arkansas.  We can win at Arkansas with recruits who do not "rate" highly with the "gurus".  However, you have to be able to coach them up-especially at the skilled positions and quarterbacks.  I cannot think of a single qb that HDN has coached up other than MJ and I think he accomplished what he did on raw talent alone...not coaching.

[JustoHogFan]

Whether Bob is right or wrong he has some hilarious insight on alot of things involving college basketball and most of the time I enjoy reading or hearing it just for a good laugh.

Thanks for the post Wilson

[RedSatinHog]

Where, for example, do you suppose Larry Bird was ranked nationally as a high school player? Where was Calbert Cheaney ranked? Or Karl Malone?

        

I would imagine pretty high.  Maybe not?

Karl Malone went to LA Tech, I doubt very seriously he was that high on many lists

All of those guys were late bloomers, ala Scottie Pippen. Some guys just don't show much in HS and then
BAM! there they are. Bird was good enough to play at Indiana so he must have shown something.

The thing that impresses me most about Knight is that he's rarely had blue-chip talent, and he has almost always seemed to get the most out of it.  When you consider his record against Dean Smith, then look at the rosters when IU and UNC hooked up, you'll likely find yourself wondering how Knight managed to win.

Bird first went to Indiana, but he left before the freshman semester ever got started.  To this day, Knight will tell you that losing Bird was one of his greatest failures as a coach.