Hogville

RB Sports Discussion => Monday Morning Quarterback => Topic started by: gdumont on February 06, 2018, 04:09:44 pm

Title: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 06, 2018, 04:09:44 pm
What do you think of recruiting rankings?

http://www.nwahomepage.com/sports/razorback-nation/is-arkansas-a-3-star-school/950293278
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: bphi11ips on February 07, 2018, 06:43:09 am
Good article except for the clickbait title.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on February 07, 2018, 07:50:13 am
Maybe we should become a two star program considering the percentage of those making it to the NFL is much higher than three stars.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: jimmur74 on February 07, 2018, 08:50:14 am
85 percent of signees nation wide are 3 stars
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Karma on February 07, 2018, 09:31:02 am
Maybe we should become a two star program considering the percentage of those making it to the NFL is much higher than three stars.
That is categorically false. The odds of a 3 star eventually going to the NFL is MUCH higher than a 2 star.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 09:42:54 am
Over a large sample size it matters.  Saying getting five stars doesn't matter because of Darius Winston is ridiculous. 17% of five stars from 2002-2008 were drafted in the first round. Half are drafted period. These are usually program changing players.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: DeltaBoy on February 07, 2018, 09:52:21 am
With the coaching upheaval the past 10 years!
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 10:56:11 am
Over a large sample size it matters.  Saying getting five stars doesn't matter because of Darius Winston is ridiculous. 17% of five stars from 2002-2008 were drafted in the first round. Half are drafted period. These are usually program changing players.

I'm not saying that five stars don't matter. I'm saying the statistics of Arkansas' history since 2002 (when the recruiting rankings go back to) point to the fact that 5 stars aren't surefire bets, just like a 0 star isn't a surefire failure. It's about the player themselves and the coaching. Some players are underrated coming out of high school/juco while some are overrated
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MJ2 on February 07, 2018, 11:14:14 am
Not sure.   We seem to have difficulty keeping top talent in state each year, but hopefully that will change.    Ya gotta win at home before you can win "on the road".
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on February 07, 2018, 11:16:29 am
That is categorically false. The odds of a 3 star eventually going to the NFL is MUCH higher than a 2 star.

Obviously some of you can't recognize a joke when you see it.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 11:20:04 am
I'm not saying that five stars don't matter. I'm saying the statistics of Arkansas' history since 2002 (when the recruiting rankings go back to) point to the fact that 5 stars aren't surefire bets, just like a 0 star isn't a surefire failure. It's about the player themselves and the coaching. Some players are underrated coming out of high school/juco while some are overrated

Higher rated recruits turn out to be better players than lower rated recruits more times than not.

Look at the rankings year in, year out. Most teams towards the top compete for championships.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 11:20:39 am
Obviously some of you can't recognize a bad, unfunny, and terrible joke when you see it.

FIFY
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 11:30:47 am
Higher rated recruits turn out to be better players than lower rated recruits more times than not.

Look at the rankings year in, year out. Most teams towards the top compete for championships.

I only focused on Arkansas
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 11:36:36 am
I only focused on Arkansas

And, even when only considering Arkansas, my point stands.

The better ranked players went to the NFL at a higher percentage.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: razorsharptusk on February 07, 2018, 11:43:43 am
Get them a 3.  Coach and develop them to 4 and 5.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 11:47:40 am
And, even when only considering Arkansas, my point stands.

The better ranked players went to the NFL at a higher percentage.

Not always. 2 stars get to the NFL at a higher rate than 3 stars and make All-SEC at a higher rate than 4 stars. Maybe in 10 years the numbers will be different, but that's where they stand as of right now. This isn't my opinion, these are the facts
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 11:54:26 am
Not always. 2 stars get to the NFL at a higher rate than 3 stars and make All-SEC at a higher rate than 4 stars. Maybe in 10 years the numbers will be different, but that's where they stand as of right now. This isn't my opinion, these are the facts

Fair enough.

Those stats wouldn't hold true if more than Arkansas was considered. We both know that.

End of the day stars and rankings matter; your article indicates they are just something to talk about. They are a pretty good indicator of future success.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: RyanMallettsEgo on February 07, 2018, 11:55:43 am
That is categorically false. The odds of a 3 star eventually going to the NFL is MUCH higher than a 2 star.

As it relates to Arkansas football since 2002, it's not categorically false at all.

33.3% of 2* players from Arkansas make the NFL. 13.5% of 3* players from Arkansas make the NFL.

Last I checked, 33.3% > 13.5%.

The article is about Arkansas recruits. It has nothing to do with recruits nationally. Reading comprehension in this thread is lacking.

Sure, viewing this on a national scale would result in different figures. But that's not what this article does or is trying to do.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 12:01:12 pm
Fair enough.

Those stats wouldn't hold true if more than Arkansas was considered. We both know that.

End of the day stars and rankings matter; your article indicates they are just something to talk about. They are a pretty good indicator of future success.

I stand by my research. I only considered Arkansas since that's who I cover.

Yes, they are something to talk about. Because for every Hunter Henry that knocks it out of the park, there's an Anthony Oden who flames out. Darius Winston didn't play at a level most people expect out of a 5 star. Jonathan Luigs played at a level higher than most people expect out of a 2 star. Coaches and players determine what the player does while they are on campus, not what they were rated.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 07, 2018, 12:06:07 pm
I stand by my research. I only considered Arkansas since that's who I cover.

Yes, they are something to talk about. Because for every Hunter Henry that knocks it out of the park, there's an Anthony Oden who flames out. Darius Winston didn't play at a level most people expect out of a 5 star. Jonathan Luigs played at a level higher than most people expect out of a 2 star. Coaches and players determine what the player does while they are on campus, not what they were rated.

Coach em up, try harder, and be better: the Razorback way.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Karma on February 07, 2018, 02:20:25 pm
Obviously some of you can't recognize a joke when you see it.
Or it's a bad joke.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Karma on February 07, 2018, 02:21:36 pm
I stand by my research. I only considered Arkansas since that's who I cover.

Yes, they are something to talk about. Because for every Hunter Henry that knocks it out of the park, there's an Anthony Oden who flames out. Darius Winston didn't play at a level most people expect out of a 5 star. Jonathan Luigs played at a level higher than most people expect out of a 2 star. Coaches and players determine what the player does while they are on campus, not what they were rated.
let's play 10 hands of poker:
You get 2/7 every hand; I get AK.
You will likely win some of the 10 hands, but I will likely win far more.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on February 07, 2018, 02:32:48 pm
Over a large sample size it matters.  Saying getting five stars doesn't matter because of Darius Winston is ridiculous. 17% of five stars from 2002-2008 were drafted in the first round. Half are drafted period. These are usually program changing players.

This is what Iíve said over and over and what lots of people just donít get.

You canít say any single player has more potential purely on the merit of s star rating. Of course not.

However you can say, definitively, when looking at overall recruiting over time that higher ranked recruits based on star rankings perform better and as a result are more often drafted on the whole. Its an easy matter of going back and looking at the data in aggregate.

People get distracted by the 2 star feel good story exceptions and want to use them to refute the value of ratings but that misses the point completely.  It ignores the ocean of 2 star recruits that were the norm. Its making a judgement about the entire forrest by plucking out one special tree.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 05:27:35 pm
let's play 10 hands of poker:
You get 2/7 every hand; I get AK.
You will likely win some of the 10 hands, but I will likely win far more.

It depends. If I play the right way, I'll be able to beat you the majority of the time. The point of the article is that stars aren't everything. Coaching and the player themselves have more to do with success than their star rating.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: HeyHogs on February 07, 2018, 06:11:18 pm
Yes.  Yes we are.  With Morris as the coach we are closer to a 2 star school.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: RyanMallettsEgo on February 07, 2018, 06:14:28 pm
Yes.  Yes we are.  With Morris as the coach we are closer to a 2 star school.

Did you read the article? In our school's history, 2* have turned out pretty damn solid so...maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Nice attempt at being condescending. Too bad you completely whiffed here.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Swestwill66 on February 07, 2018, 06:17:55 pm
Not always. 2 stars get to the NFL at a higher rate than 3 stars and make All-SEC at a higher rate than 4 stars. Maybe in 10 years the numbers will be different, but that's where they stand as of right now. This isn't my opinion, these are the facts

Wasn't Ken Hamlin a 2 star ?
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gdumont on February 07, 2018, 07:09:56 pm
Wasn't Ken Hamlin a 2 star ?

I only went back to 2002, since that's the 1st full year of 247sports.com rankings
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: HiggiePiggy on February 07, 2018, 07:10:12 pm
Arkansas since joining the SEC hasnít had much success to be able to build up a higher recruiting base.  We are a pretty average team since 1992.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: tncbg on February 07, 2018, 08:53:22 pm
The question is why is the guy a three star? Is undersized or a step slow? We seem to end up with those that are a step slow. Thatís what has to stop. If a guy doesnít have good speed....pass.  We got a 4 star linebacker in this class that runs a 4.7ish 40 and that concerns me. I hope his lateral speed is bette
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: BornaHog on February 07, 2018, 09:57:35 pm
I do know 1 thing in that as a lifelong HOG fan, I would prefer a 2* from Ar over a 2* from anywhere else, a 3* from Ar over any other 3*, same for a 4* or 5*. I believe any star player from Ar will give more to the team just because of tradition and the pride of being a HOG. There are plenty of times that we could get an equivalent player from Ar but take one from out of state but I would prefer the Ar kid. You can say all you want to about a legacy player but those guys will give everything they have and more to uphold the Hog traditions and not disappoint their families than a player that is here just because it was his best offer or because another team decided to blue shirt them. Also those players will leave just as soon as some agent gets in their ear telling them how good they are and that they will go high in the draft, even if they won't. I believe the want to is just a little higher if it is your home state, but that is just my opinion and Right or wrong it is what I believe. GHG
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 07, 2018, 10:30:54 pm
I do know 1 thing in that as a lifelong HOG fan, I would prefer a 2* from Ar over a 2* from anywhere else, a 3* from Ar over any other 3*, same for a 4* or 5*. I believe any star player from Ar will give more to the team just because of tradition and the pride of being a HOG. There are plenty of times that we could get an equivalent player from Ar but take one from out of state but I would prefer the Ar kid. You can say all you want to about a legacy player but those guys will give everything they have and more to uphold the Hog traditions and not disappoint their families than a player that is here just because it was his best offer or because another team decided to blue shirt them. Also those players will leave just as soon as some agent gets in their ear telling them how good they are and that they will go high in the draft, even if they won't. I believe the want to is just a little higher if it is your home state, but that is just my opinion and Right or wrong it is what I believe. GHG

No, just no

As for the OP and recruiting rankings, Outside of the elite teams, the next 30-40 teams are "3 star" schools. The key for them is when they do et higher ranked players they have to be game changers. If Bama signs a 5 star rb or wr and he is a bust, they just plug in the next guy. If the Hogs get a 5 start rb or wr and he is a bust, his replacement is probably a 3 star, and when he faces the elite teams he just does not win the war.

There are very good college players that, for a variety of reasons, just do not make it in the nfl.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: HoginMemphis on February 08, 2018, 08:39:57 am
What do you think of recruiting rankings?

http://www.nwahomepage.com/sports/razorback-nation/is-arkansas-a-3-star-school/950293278
Recruiting rankings are accurate in that Arkansas' recruiting classes rarely rank in the top 25 in the country and we rarely finish a season in the top 25 programs.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on February 08, 2018, 12:39:28 pm
Recruiting rankings are accurate in that Arkansas' recruiting classes rarely rank in the top 25 in the country and we rarely finish a season in the top 25 programs.

 I think we usually have a recruiting class somewhere around 25.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 08, 2018, 12:56:58 pm
I think we usually have a recruiting class somewhere around 25.

and the issue there is that 25 is usually still only 10th or so in the SEC.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 08, 2018, 01:02:10 pm
and the issue there is that 25 is usually still only 10th or so in the SEC.

Bingo. Talent deficit relative to peers.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 08, 2018, 01:22:59 pm
Bingo. Talent deficit relative to peers.

25th this year would have still been 9th in the sec and 5th in the secw, 2 spots ahead of msu.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Hopeful Hog on February 08, 2018, 01:30:17 pm
Get them a 3.  Coach and develop them to 4 and 5.

Get them a 4 and 5. Coach can compete for a title.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: gohogs1969 on February 08, 2018, 02:23:08 pm
3 plus school and develop
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 08, 2018, 02:25:33 pm
3 plus school and develop

Back to this again? Back to the idea that you can turn lesser talent into a winner? If your opponents CONSISTENTLY sign better players they will CONSISTENTLY have better teams, and more times than not the team with better players is going to win.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Hoggish1 on February 08, 2018, 04:10:51 pm
Any kid that goes to a school saying look at me I'm a 4 or 5* is headed for a fall.  Once you get somewhere the stars are erased and they all start over.  It's the ones who have the want to that profit from the how to...
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: go hogues on February 08, 2018, 05:24:10 pm
Weíve generally finished in the bottom half of the SEC recruiting rankings and generally finish in the bottom half of the standings at seasonís end.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: OS2 (SW) Razor Back on February 08, 2018, 07:27:23 pm
When someone on here says stars don't matter, this place bugs out.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: blu on February 08, 2018, 08:55:23 pm
In response to the OP, we are except in certain years when we have special talent in state - 2019 appears to be one of those years.  And I won't say stars don't matter, cause i don't want anyone to bug out, but I do think stars are slightly over-rated, especially by certain posters on this forum.

Many 3 Stars are starting and flourishing at the UA and other institutions. Mizzou has made a case for doing more with less. if they can, we sure as heck can.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Al Boarland on February 09, 2018, 05:55:13 am
When someone on here says stars don't matter, this place bugs out.

Probably because they do and people that say they donít are justifying not recruiting at the level of the teams we want to beat.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: tncbg on February 09, 2018, 06:57:53 am
Arkansas is a three star school and always has been. There was a time when Georgia was much closer to a three star school than what they are now. Clemson was a three star school for quite a while, but they are riding high now. Ole Miss was a three star school, got tired of it and tried to cheat their way to the next level...didnít work. I am encouraged that Morris believes in speed and recognizes that we donít have much of it. If he does nothing but recruit 3 stars that can really move we will be better than we were. Maybe the new strength coach will pay dividends. The one we had was not getting it done.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 09, 2018, 07:21:13 am
Arkansas is a three star school and always has been. There was a time when Georgia was much closer to a three star school than what they are now. Clemson was a three star school for quite a while, but they are riding high now. Ole Miss was a three star school, got tired of it and tried to cheat their way to the next level...didnít work. I am encouraged that Morris believes in speed and recognizes that we donít have much of it. If he does nothing but recruit 3 stars that can really move we will be better than we were. Maybe the new strength coach will pay dividends. The one we had was not getting it done.

In the 1950s? What? You're lying to yourself if you think UGA is a three star school or has been in recent memory.

Aside from some bad years under Tommy West Clemson has been much more successful than Arkansas since 1980, even if you exclude the Deshaun Watson years. They are not and have not been a 3 star school.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: JimmyJohnsonsBoat on February 09, 2018, 08:11:16 am
Arkansas is a three star school and always has been. There was a time when Georgia was much closer to a three star school than what they are now. Clemson was a three star school for quite a while, but they are riding high now. Ole Miss was a three star school, got tired of it and tried to cheat their way to the next level...didnít work. I am encouraged that Morris believes in speed and recognizes that we donít have much of it. If he does nothing but recruit 3 stars that can really move we will be better than we were. Maybe the new strength coach will pay dividends. The one we had was not getting it done.

If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

"Believes in speed" makes it sound like it's big foot or some mythological creature. I think everyone knows speed exists, we just didn't have it.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: allhogislost on February 09, 2018, 08:37:07 am
Do you guys get payed to make the hogs look bad. Quit wallowing in all this negativity. I got to ask how does this drivel get stickied are you really even a fan.  ???
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: twistitup on February 09, 2018, 08:42:27 am
Not always. 2 stars get to the NFL at a higher rate than 3 stars and make All-SEC at a higher rate than 4 stars.

Which means what? It's all about player development
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 09, 2018, 08:46:26 am
Do you guys get payed to make the hogs look bad. Quit wallowing in all this negativity. I got to ask how does this drivel get stickied are you really even a fan.  ???

No, I don't get PAID to get on Hogville. Yes, I donate and watch every game I'm able. The delusion of the fan base gets old; it's not that hard to inform yourself.

Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 09, 2018, 08:51:00 am
Stars don't matter, players matter. But the better players usually have more stars, and the teams with more of the better players win more. No one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to take a group of players that the ratings services give 2 and 3 stars to and win the SEC, not going to happen.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: allhogislost on February 09, 2018, 09:16:23 am
I am old enough to know it can be better. Stop reinforcing this poor poor Arkansas.  We need a change in our ways of thinking. We need positive expectations. If you ever give in to this is the best we can do you might as well quit. Try selling this to Eagles fans no championship since 1960 I believe.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 09, 2018, 09:20:42 am
I am old enough to know it can be better. Stop reinforcing this poor poor Arkansas.  We need a change in our ways of thinking. We need positive expectations. If you ever give in to this is the best we can do you might as well quit. Try selling this to Eagles fans no championship since 1960 I believe.

News Flash: the NFL, a league with 32 teams and a hard salary cap, is to say the least nothing like the landscape of college football.

It is highly unlikely you're going to compete for a championship with a team full of 3 stars. I'd like to see a Championship in my lifetime. That can happen with a solid coach and getting better players.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: allhogislost on February 09, 2018, 09:29:36 am
News flash. I am fan short for fanatic if I choose to believe and be positive that is my prerogative. If you want tell everyone this is as good as it gets do not expect better that is yours.  Must be a miserable life.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: allhogislost on February 09, 2018, 09:30:47 am
News Flash: the NFL, a league with 32 teams and a hard salary cap, is to say the least nothing like the landscape of college football.

It is highly unlikely you're going to compete for a championship with a team full of 3 stars. I'd like to see a Championship in my lifetime. That can happen with a solid coach and getting better players.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 09, 2018, 09:37:25 am
News flash. I am fan short for fanatic if I choose to believe and be positive that is my prerogative. If you want tell everyone this is as good as it gets do not expect better that is yours.  Must be a miserable life.

Love the Hogs, but I don't let them run my life. I agree, I'd be pretty miserable if I let let them run my life because they are 95-120 in conference games the past 25 years.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 09, 2018, 09:49:14 am
News flash. I am fan short for fanatic if I choose to believe and be positive that is my prerogative. If you want tell everyone this is as good as it gets do not expect better that is yours.  Must be a miserable life.

and yet another decade+ old acct that pretty much disappeared from the time bb was hired until Dec of 2017. So who's alter ego are you?

No one is saying this is as good as it gets, but it is as good as it gets without getting better players and lots of them.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: JimmyJohnsonsBoat on February 09, 2018, 10:04:01 am
Love the Hogs, but I don't let them run my life. I agree, I'd be pretty miserable if I let let them run my life because they are 95-120 in conference games the past 25 years.

Your post count says otherwise
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hogsanity on February 09, 2018, 02:38:37 pm
Your post count says otherwise

and your post count tells me this is not your 1st acct here
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: JimmyJohnsonsBoat on February 09, 2018, 02:59:21 pm
and your post count tells me this is not your 1st acct here

Wrong
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Al Boarland on February 10, 2018, 04:10:02 pm
Which means what? It's all about player development

No, itís half about player development. The other half is having more talent and depth than the team youíre playing.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: RockyMtnHog on February 10, 2018, 06:27:03 pm
I would rate a Walk-On as a 2 Star or below.  We've had a few walk-ons that developed into All-Americans.  Brandon Burlsworth comes to mind.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 11, 2018, 11:14:36 am
What do you think of recruiting rankings?

http://www.nwahomepage.com/sports/razorback-nation/is-arkansas-a-3-star-school/950293278

2013 through 2017, assigning a flat 5 points for a 5 star and 4 for a 4, 3 for a 3 and naturally 2 points for a 2 star or below that were actually signed by each SEC team, taking into account how many were signed by each team over that period of time, here is the average for all SEC teams over those 5 years of recruiting classes.

              Signed        5       4       3      2 and Below     Total Points     Avg P/Player         Wins (2016-2017)
ALA           130         27      74     28            1                  517               3.98                          27
LSU           128          9       73     44            2                  473               3.70                          17
GEO           134         11      65     56            2                  487               3.63                          21
AUB           127         13      55     57            2                  460               3.62                          18
A&M          130          7       51     71            1                  454               3.49                          15
FLA           121          5       44     71            1                  416               3.44                          13
TEN           136          2       49     82            3                  458               3.37                          13
MISS         127          7       35     80            5                  425               3.35                          11
USC          125          0       33     90            2                  406               3.25                          15
ARK           122          1       24     92            5                  387               3.17                          11
MSU          118          2       20     91            5                  373               3.16                          15
KEN           120          0       19     99            2                  377               3.14                          14
MIZ           118          1       10    104           3                  363               3.08                           11
VAN           110          0        9     90           11                 328               2.98                           11

So is Arkansas a 3 Star School? Probably. More so than some, less so than others. Th vast majority are in the 3 star (average) range though Alabama is as close to being a 4 Star School as you can be.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: 12247 on February 11, 2018, 11:19:14 am
A few years ago I looked into this a bit.  Actually, we are not a 3 star school, coming in at that time as a 2.87 star school and I have no reason nor have I researched it to know where we are at now.

I also believe there is a reason for Arkansas and likely other schools maybe getting more mileage out of  2 stars, walkons, and no rating players versus their ratings.  When a player is nationally rated, all the coaches know, all the coaches pretty much accept the rating.  In many cases the lower rated players may get for more actual research because the HC knows he is picking that player from thousands available and he will be held solely responsible if that player is a huge failure or causes team trouble.  If Mr. 4 or 5 star fails, everyone can point out the 92 offers from all the top 100 rated teams.  If that 2 star or no star you gave a schollie to fails or worse, misbehaves, its all on that coach.

Also, I would wager that most marginal players that do end up with a chance, mentally appreciate that opportunity more.  They work harder in general, they've always had to since talent isn't their long suit.  Mr. Great knows he can coast and likely still get by and due to laws of average, many do coast.  Also, for the first time in Mr. Greats life, he may not be the star of the team or even the 10th best player on the team.  That is a hard bite to swallow, while Mr. small talent is busting his ass to just make the travel squad or any squad and accepts that its bust ass or no banana.  I feel certain that there is at least dozens of never signed players out there that would, if given the opportunity, make the starting lineup for many schools in the top 25.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: twistitup on February 11, 2018, 11:25:15 am
12247, good post....we also forget that Mr. Walkon might have been Mr. Troublemaker when he was 13-17 - he may have gotten injured his soph year and scouting reports missed that...many 2 star guys and walkons have a story that goes along with why they ended up in that position. Bad decision, bad grades, bad luck, injuries, etc.-can crush your chances of getting a scholarship...these guys end up walkons.

Some of them 'see the light' and change their ways - or they heal up from old injuries...either way, they can end up being some of your best players.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 11, 2018, 11:36:42 am
A few years ago I looked into this a bit.  Actually, we are not a 3 star school, coming in at that time as a 2.87 star school and I have no reason nor have I researched it to know where we are at now.


That's not what we are now. Just look above.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Pig in the Pokey on February 11, 2018, 11:44:14 am
85 percent of signees nation wide are 3 stars
this is what Hogville refuses to understand. It's also why I point out everytime I see a 4* kid called a 3*. People are so lazy. They wont even check the other services. And they say dumb ass darn like, "The composite on 247 is the most accurate". No, the composite average just grows the 3* pool from 75% to 90%. Stars are stupid; a much better measure is their actual rating. an 81 3* and a 89 3* arent even really that close. Yet, HV still calls an 89 a 3*. Even when 247 and espn have them as 4*s. B/c, "The more accurate composite rating said 3*". ppssshhht.

It's what-ever. To me it is like a litmus to to see if you know anything about recruiting.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Pig in the Pokey on February 11, 2018, 11:47:55 am
A few years ago I looked into this a bit.  Actually, we are not a 3 star school, coming in at that time as a 2.87 star school and I have no reason nor have I researched it to know where we are at now.

I also believe there is a reason for Arkansas and likely other schools maybe getting more mileage out of  2 stars, walkons, and no rating players versus their ratings.  When a player is nationally rated, all the coaches know, all the coaches pretty much accept the rating.  In many cases the lower rated players may get for more actual research because the HC knows he is picking that player from thousands available and he will be held solely responsible if that player is a huge failure or causes team trouble.  If Mr. 4 or 5 star fails, everyone can point out the 92 offers from all the top 100 rated teams.  If that 2 star or no star you gave a schollie to fails or worse, misbehaves, its all on that coach.

Also, I would wager that most marginal players that do end up with a chance, mentally appreciate that opportunity more.  They work harder in general, they've always had to since talent isn't their long suit.  Mr. Great knows he can coast and likely still get by and due to laws of average, many do coast.  Also, for the first time in Mr. Greats life, he may not be the star of the team or even the 10th best player on the team.  That is a hard bite to swallow, while Mr. small talent is busting his ass to just make the travel squad or any squad and accepts that its bust ass or no banana.  I feel certain that there is at least dozens of never signed players out there that would, if given the opportunity, make the starting lineup for many schools in the top 25.
READ THE THREAD, Man.

Arkansas- 3.17  THAT MEANS A SCHOOL OF 3 and 4*s.

WHere they hell do you people keep getting this 2* crap from?
When do we EVER sign 2*s???
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: HenduHog on February 11, 2018, 02:33:43 pm
Yes.  Yes we are.  With Morris as the coach we are closer to a 2 star school.

Ok. Let me make this clear to you. Gus Malazahn isn't coming.

He gave us a royal screwing by using us as a tool to get a raise.

GUS IS NOT COMING!!!!!
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Bubba's Bruisers on February 11, 2018, 02:50:45 pm
I stand by my research. I only considered Arkansas since that's who I cover.

Yes, they are something to talk about. Because for every Hunter Henry that knocks it out of the park, there's an Anthony Oden who flames out. Darius Winston didn't play at a level most people expect out of a 5 star. Jonathan Luigs played at a level higher than most people expect out of a 2 star. Coaches and players determine what the player does while they are on campus, not what they were rated.

What's been our over all record during the timeframe of your research?
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Bubba's Bruisers on February 11, 2018, 02:53:49 pm
It depends. If I play the right way, I'll be able to beat you the majority of the time. The point of the article is that stars aren't everything. Coaching and the player themselves have more to do with success than their star rating.

Except the hands aren't played in a vacuum.  If he also plays the right way, then he beats you more often than not.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Bubba's Bruisers on February 11, 2018, 03:00:02 pm
Wasn't Ken Hamlin a 2 star ?

Probably so.  Now, name all of our historical 2 stars that were drafted early in the second round or better?  After that, tell me which ones played at UA at the same time.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: ChitownHawg on February 11, 2018, 04:45:07 pm
I stand by my research. I only considered Arkansas since that's who I cover.

Yes, they are something to talk about. Because for every Hunter Henry that knocks it out of the park, there's an Anthony Oden who flames out. Darius Winston didn't play at a level most people expect out of a 5 star. Jonathan Luigs played at a level higher than most people expect out of a 2 star. Coaches and players determine what the player does while they are on campus, not what they were rated.

There was a more famous Hog wh was a 0 that makes your point as well. He did pretty well and was drafted to the NFL. An award is named after him too. They even made a movie about him.

But I cannot remember his name. 😉
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: ChitownHawg on February 11, 2018, 04:48:51 pm
This is what Iíve said over and over and what lots of people just donít get.

You canít say any single player has more potential purely on the merit of s star rating. Of course not.

However you can say, definitively, when looking at overall recruiting over time that higher ranked recruits based on star rankings perform better and as a result are more often drafted on the whole. Its an easy matter of going back and looking at the data in aggregate.

People get distracted by the 2 star feel good story exceptions and want to use them to refute the value of ratings but that misses the point completely.  It ignores the ocean of 2 star recruits that were the norm. Its making a judgement about the entire forrest by plucking out one special tree.

 But that isnít what the article is about. Do you post often about topics not related to the thread? The article and post is about the HOGS.  No one else.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: twistitup on February 11, 2018, 04:59:01 pm
2013 through 2017, assigning a flat 5 points for a 5 star and 4 for a 4, 3 for a 3 and naturally 2 points for a 2 star or below that were actually signed by each SEC team, taking into account how many were signed by each team over that period of time, here is the average for all SEC teams over those 5 years of recruiting classes.

              Signed        5       4       3      2 and Below     Total Points     Avg P/Player         Wins (2016-2017)
ALA           130         27      74     28            1                  517               3.98                          27
LSU           128          9       73     44            2                  473               3.70                          17
GEO           134         11      65     56            2                  487               3.63                          21
AUB           127         13      55     57            2                  460               3.62                          18
A&M          130          7       51     71            1                  454               3.49                          15
FLA           121          5       44     71            1                  416               3.44                          13
TEN           136          2       49     82            3                  458               3.37                          13
MISS         127          7       35     80            5                  425               3.35                          11
USC          125          0       33     90            2                  406               3.25                          15
ARK           122          1       24     92            5                  387               3.17                          11
MSU          118          2       20     91            5                  373               3.16                          15
KEN           120          0       19     99            2                  377               3.14                          14
MIZ           118          1       10    104           3                  363               3.08                           11
VAN           110          0        9     90           11                 328               2.98                           11

So is Arkansas a 3 Star School? Probably. More so than some, less so than others. Th vast majority are in the 3 star (average) range though Alabama is as close to being a 4 Star School as you can be.

you don't SIGN two star guys most of the time...they walk on and earn scholies- but they are on the 105 man roster. They improve w time and turn into great ball players.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 11, 2018, 06:38:25 pm
you don't SIGN two star guys most of the time...they walk on and earn scholies- but they are on the 105 man roster. They improve w time and turn into great ball players.

Well in these cases, each and every one of them were officially signed and not PWO's or regular WO's. Not sure why you even responded when it is clear that we are talking about two different things.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: twistitup on February 11, 2018, 07:44:29 pm
Well in these cases, each and every one of them were officially signed and not PWO's or regular WO's. Not sure why you even responded when it is clear that we are talking about two different things.

My apologies Musk.

I'm a little drunk.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 11, 2018, 07:51:18 pm
My apologies Musk.

I'm a little drunk.

Take care, amigo.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: tncbg on February 11, 2018, 09:54:58 pm
If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

"Believes in speed" makes it sound like it's big foot or some mythological creature. I think everyone knows speed exists, we just didn't have it.

Correct. We didnít have it because Bert didnít seem to emphasize it. You were more likely to see Big Foot than a hog defensive back fast enough to keep up. Hopefully that is changing.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: tncbg on February 11, 2018, 10:09:19 pm
In the 1950s? What? You're lying to yourself if you think UGA is a three star school or has been in recent memory.

Aside from some bad years under Tommy West Clemson has been much more successful than Arkansas since 1980, even if you exclude the Deshaun Watson years. They are not and have not been a 3 star school.

From 1989 - 2000 Georgia averaged about 7 wins per season.  Thatís recent history and three star numbers in my book. Clemson went twenty years from 1991 to 2010 averaging about 7 wins per season. Thatís recent history in the weak ACC. Sounds like three star to me.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: steveaustin69 on February 12, 2018, 07:44:54 am
From 1989 - 2000 Georgia averaged about 7 wins per season.  Thatís recent history and three star numbers in my book. Clemson went twenty years from 1991 to 2010 averaging about 7 wins per season. Thatís recent history in the weak ACC. Sounds like three star to me.

Ha. Way to cherry pick years under each program's worst coach in the past 3 decades.  Neither are 3 star programs.  If the Hogs rattle off five straight ten win seasons our 11 year average will be 7.5. See how that works? 

Alabama averaged 7.25 wins from 1993-2007. I guess they were also a three star school.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Bubba's Bruisers on February 12, 2018, 08:37:08 am

From 1989 - 2000 Georgia averaged about 7 wins per season.  Thatís recent history and three star numbers in my book. Clemson went twenty years from 1991 to 2010 averaging about 7 wins per season. Thatís recent history in the weak ACC. Sounds like three star to me.

Those programs aren't winning now with 3 stars.  They're doing it with 4 and 5 stars.  And we aren't in the same league as those programs from a geographical/recruiting stand point.  And we sure ain't in the same league with UGA in history and tradition.  Simply not an apples to apples comparison.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: 12247 on February 12, 2018, 01:13:15 pm
Pig---Pokey,  I did mention in my post that it was research from a few years ago. You know, I could see how you missed that as it was the very first sentence.  I will further say that Muskogee's post was right above mine and I had not seen it before I typed and posted mine.  Because Muskogee actually did the research currently, it made my info less valuable.

Houston Nutt used to sign 2 star players to answer your question.  I also remember Petrino taking 1 or 2.  My memory is that my research was done on some of the Houston Nutt years.

Muskogee's research would indicate that Bret actually improved recruiting here (star wise) just a bit.  Also, it would show that Nutt did more winning with less talent than Bret did with slightly more talent.  That could be the perceived difference in quality of schedule between the two eras.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: 12247 on February 12, 2018, 01:33:01 pm
By the way, Muskogee has clearly shown that within the recent past, Arkansas is a 3 star school.  Thread answered unless someone can prove Muskogee wrong.

Muskogee's post does bring up side points though.  Most of those folks with higher starred players are the same folks that have pinned a majority of the losses we've had on us.  Of the top 6 listed SEC teams, 4 of those are also the teams that have had the most staring success in college football over the past 10 to 15 years.  And of those 6 teams, well they are all usually in the top 15 of recruiting ratings every year.  So directly and indirectly, stars do matter and they matter a lot.  And last but not least, Arkansas plays 4 of the top 5 of those teams every year.  So it could be said, you are either STARRED UP or chasing STARRED UP every year.  You know, like you have speed or you are chasing speed every year. 
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: hawgfan4life on February 15, 2018, 12:37:55 pm
Based on statistics, AR should be glad when the 4 and 5 star athletes leave Arkansas because very few of them produce anything more than very mediocre results over the life of their time at the other school.  Statistically, our in-state results for 4 and 5 star recruits we keep home is significantly better concerning overall production.  Therefore, statistically speaking, Arkansas fans shouldn't care too much about the 4 and 5 star athletes that leave because they rarely produce at other schools.  They should be more excited about the 3 star athletes that stay home, because many of them turn into great players for the program.  All of this is statistical fact.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: Swestwill66 on February 15, 2018, 12:49:18 pm
Probably so.  Now, name all of our historical 2 stars that were drafted early in the second round or better?  After that, tell me which ones played at UA at the same time.

Good gosh man, Ken Hamlin just came to mind ! I am far too lazy to do that research!!
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 15, 2018, 03:01:15 pm
you don't SIGN two star guys most of the time...they walk on and earn scholies- but they are on the 105 man roster. They improve w time and turn into great ball players.

By the way, from 2002-2007 Nutt signed 21-2 stars or below, 2008-2012 BP/JLS signed an incredible 43-2 stars or below and Bielema, from 2013-2017 signed 17-2 stars or below, according to 24/7 Sports.

So, with regard to all of the star classifications from 2002-2017 Arkansas has signed 4-5 stars (0.9% of total players signed over that period of time), 63-4 stars (14.5%), 286-3 stars (65.9%) and 81-2 stars or below (18.7%) out of the 434 recorded to have signed. Now obviously some of those never made it to campus, some transferred and some never saw the field, but the majority stuck it out.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on February 15, 2018, 05:58:40 pm
Probably so.  Now, name all of our historical 2 stars that were drafted early in the second round or better?  After that, tell me which ones played at UA at the same time.

Rivals doesn't go back (on their site anyway) that far and 247 doesn't show any star rankings for 1999 (the year that Hamlin was signed) though I remember Gary Brashears supposedly being a highly touted "can't miss" who definitely, missed here and at Tulsa (never played a down?) and at least one other place as I recall. I'd love to see those rankings that far back, but I can't find them.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: tncbg on February 16, 2018, 10:31:12 pm
Ha. Way to cherry pick years under each program's worst coach in the past 3 decades.  Neither are 3 star programs.  If the Hogs rattle off five straight ten win seasons our 11 year average will be 7.5. See how that works? 

Alabama averaged 7.25 wins from 1993-2007. I guess they were also a three star school.

You said 1950ís and recent memory. I just responded to your parameters. Arkansas sux in recent memory, distant memory and all in between, but weíre stuck with them.
Title: Re: Is Arkansas a 3 Star School?
Post by: liljo on February 17, 2018, 03:52:56 pm
You said 1950ís and recent memory. I just responded to your parameters. Arkansas sux in recent memory, distant memory and all in between, but weíre stuck with them.

Ya momma just didn't love you, did she... ::)