Hogville

RB Sports Discussion => SEC Sports => Topic started by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 09:45:25 am

Title: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 09:45:25 am
So if you look at the 3 coaches in the SEC with the hottest seats they are currently (and this seems to change weekly) Bielema, Orgeron, and Butch Jones.

These three men have complied a combined SEC record of 31-67. (BB 10-23, EO 7-24, BJ 14-20)
Compared to a combined buyout of 36.6 million dollars. (BB 15.4M, EO 12M, BJ 9.2M)

How did these three schools get to this place? Are these AD's really that incompetent?

My question is how does the actual negotiating process work? Do these AD's get any 'help' from university lawyers, or any other outside influences? I ask this because it most certainly seems as though these AD's are way in over their collective heads when dealing with these coaches agents. These agents eat, sleep and breathe contracts. They stand to benefit greatly personally by creating the best most airtight contract possible. AD's on the other hand probably spend 99% percent of their time doing duties other than contract negotiations. Does anyone feel that Arkansas is going to get a fair contract when it's representative spends more time at fidget spinner night at volleyball matches than negotiating contracts? I invite you to research Neil Cornrich who is BB's agent. After you do imagine how hard he was laughing after getting BB's contract signed.


How does the playing field get leveled? Is it possible to have the SEC hire a sports agent that would work with each school's AD to negotiate the fine details of each contract? This seems like a good investment considering how many SEC AD's seem to be utterly in over their head when dealing with high profile agents.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 09:51:37 am
As long as salaries go up, buy outs go up. It's as simple as that. Market value
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 10:13:19 am
As long as salaries go up, buy outs go up. It's as simple as that. Market value

So you are saying that Orgeron has a market value right now? I would love to know what it is or what other school would be interested.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 10:19:20 am
So you are saying that Orgeron has a market value right now? I would love to know what it is or what other school would be interested.


Do you know of a coach that has a contract that has a buyout that doesn't correspond to the amount they make in a year multiplied by how many years they have left on their contracts. It's pretty standard.


We are talking about buyouts to be fired, not fo leave for another job.


And yeah, Orgeron did have a market value to lsu. That's why he got the job.


Are you going to be the one to write the check to Bret? Why are you so angry?
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: BallHog1 on October 04, 2017, 10:25:40 am
OP,
Your grasp of the situation after the fact is brilliant and easily on par with the other "fire the coach, fire the ad, fire someone" crowd here. Its relatively easy to come to the conclusion that someone has no value after they fail to deliver. It's a little tougher on the front end.

The counter argument to your testimony would be to consider the situation where a coach was hired, was successful but wasn't contractually tied to the program through buyouts and salary and left after a year or two for greener pastures. I'm sure everyone would be ok with that  and not blame the coach or the ad for the loss of a great coach.

If you want to play ball with the big boys you have to bring your checkbook. Its part of the system of supply and demand. Hindsight is neat, but it can't be used on the front end.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: hawganatic on October 04, 2017, 10:39:09 am
If one or two ADs were putting these huge buyouts into contracts,  you could call it incompetence or "in over their head."  Since pretty much all schools are doing these types of buyouts now, you can call it.... the standard. 

Honestly with the knee jerk reactions and "gotta have it now" mentality of college football fans, what coach in his right mind would take a rebuild type job without some kind of security?  And if a school has a job opening, it's usually because the previous coach was fired and there is going to be at least a minor rebuild in progress.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: onebadrubi on October 04, 2017, 10:42:21 am
Does anyone still use a Rolodex to fix their contacts?
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 04, 2017, 10:45:21 am
Does anyone still use a Rolodex to fix their contacts?

Nope, I just look to see what time it is on my Rolex......
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: GolfnHog on October 04, 2017, 10:46:08 am
Hmmm, the playing field in contract negotiations is already level. There are attorney's, BOT's, and others that sign off on the final contract agreement. We the fans may not like a contract of a coach a couple of years into it but no one left a conference room not knowing what was written and the terms therein.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 04, 2017, 10:47:17 am
Hmmm, the playing field in contract negotiations is already level. There are attorney's, BOT's, and others that sign off on the final contract agreement. We the fans may not like a contract of a coach a couple of years into it but no one left a conference room not knowing what was written and the terms therein.

Can't be correct, I'm pretty sure those things are wrote on a napkin at the bar.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: LRHawg on October 04, 2017, 11:04:45 am
Coach O isn't getting fired this year. They are already paying Miles 133k or something like that A WEEK. They can't afford to pay two coaches buyouts at once. He'll get at least one more year.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 11:11:59 am
And for everyone on the fire Bret and his contract is horrible....



The next guy is going to get paid the same or more and have the same or more buyout to fire him........
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 11:14:34 am
OP,
Your grasp of the situation after the fact is brilliant and easily on par with the other "fire the coach, fire the ad, fire someone" crowd here. Its relatively easy to come to the conclusion that someone has no value after they fail to deliver. It's a little tougher on the front end.



So you are saying that a guy like orgeron, who has never even been a coordinator, had a market value of over 3.5 million a year last November when he was hired? I do not agree
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 11:16:35 am

So you are saying that a guy like orgeron, who has never even been a coordinator, had a market value of over 3.5 million a year last November when he was hired? I do not agree


I mean that's what he got paid.....which is about a million less than the next coasch in the West


And that's what LSU paid him so by definition that's his marker value.



And they may finish last in the West so in a sense they are getting what they paid for 


Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Jek Tono Porkins on October 04, 2017, 11:32:04 am

So you are saying that a guy like orgeron, who has never even been a coordinator, had a market value of over 3.5 million a year last November when he was hired? I do not agree
He was a head coach for 3.75 seasons.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: HF#1 on October 04, 2017, 11:33:04 am
Probably use disposable contacts.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 11:34:48 am

I mean that's what he got paid.....which is about a million less than the next coasch in the West


And that's what LSU paid him so by definition that's his marker value.



And they may finish last in the West so in a sense they are getting what they paid for

Thanks for making my point that an inept AD can completely overcompensate a coach by making his market value millions higher than anyone else is willing to spend.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 11:39:05 am
Thanks for making my point that an inept AD can completely overcompensate a coach by making his market value millions higher than anyone else is willing to spend.


So what should they have paid him? He was their third choice and is the least paid coach in the sec wes


I did not make any point for you. I just pointed out you have no clue what you're talking about.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 11:39:10 am
He was a head coach for 3.75 seasons.

He is I believe the worst coach in SEC history by winning percentage. He was 3-21 at ole miss. Don't get me wrong I'm absolutely giddy that LSu hired him.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: KlubhouseKonnected on October 04, 2017, 11:56:46 am
Probably have to contact an optometrist
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: HogPharmer on October 04, 2017, 12:04:13 pm
I came in here expecting a thread on the coaches "not seeing" what our team problems are... Talk about a disappointment...
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:16:17 pm

So what should they have paid him? He was their third choice and is the least paid coach in the sec wes


I did not make any point for you. I just pointed out you have no clue what you're talking about.

Based on conference records ,which is hard to find as bad as Orgeron's, I would put Orgeron's market value at 1.7-2.2 mil a year. This is based from two similar coaches in power 5 conferences with similar conference records
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: phadedhawg on October 04, 2017, 12:16:46 pm
Orgeron restored order to USC when they were spiraling out of control.  Lots of people on the West coast thought he'd earned the job as head coach.  His stock was fairly high  when LSU fired Les Miles.  He seemed like a natural fit and wasn't as expensive as other coaches would have been. 

It seemed like a smart hire, it's just not working out. 

Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 12:23:45 pm
Thanks for making my point that an inept AD can completely overcompensate a coach by making his market value millions higher than anyone else is willing to spend.

Do you think LSu was going to get someone for 1 or 2mil when the rest of the coaches in the division are all getting 4+?
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: 311Hog on October 04, 2017, 12:24:21 pm
red finch boyz !
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 12:25:00 pm
Based on conference records ,which is hard to find as bad as Orgeron's, I would put Orgeron's market value at 1.7-2.2 mil a year. This is based from two similar coaches in power 5 conferences with similar conference records


He is in the SEC. What is the going rate for an SEC coach?

Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 12:25:17 pm
Do you think LSu was going to get someone for 1 or 2mil when the rest of the coaches in the division are all getting 4+?

Exactly.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:26:34 pm
My question is why are incentive clauses only built into contracts to benefit coaches?  Coaches get bonuses for winning conference and national championships, graduation rates and GPA's of players, bowl games, etc...

Why don't universities get incentive clauses to make sure that the coach retains his current market value when the contract is signed? We paid 4 mil a year to BB based off of his impressive accomplishments at Wisconsin, which was a fair market value. We are still paying that market value 6 years later even though his current market value is much less based on his performance here at Arkansas. There needs to be a long term type incentive clause for the university such as in year 5 and 6 of the contract the coach must have a .500 record in conference play for those 2 years or the 15.4 million dollar buyout is reduced to fairer number like 5-8 million.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 12:27:26 pm
Based on conference records ,which is hard to find as bad as Orgeron's, I would put Orgeron's market value at 1.7-2.2 mil a year. This is based from two similar coaches in power 5 conferences with similar conference records

that is not how it works. What is everyone else in the secw making? That is the market. It does not matter what some middle of the road guy is making in the ACC or big12.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 12:28:21 pm
My question is why are incentive clauses only built into contracts to benefit coaches?  Coaches get bonuses for winning conference and national championships, graduation rates and GPA's of players, bowl games, etc...

Why don't universities get incentive clauses to make sure that the coach retains his current market value when the contract is signed? We paid 4 mil a year to BB based off of his impressive accomplishments at Wisconsin, which was a fair market value. We are still paying that market value 6 years later even though his current market value is much less based on his performance here at Arkansas. There needs to be a long term type incentive clause for the university such as in year 5 and 6 of the contract the coach must have a .500 record in conference play for those 2 years or the 15.4 million dollar buyout is reduced to fairer number like 5-8 million.

You are new to the business world, aren't you.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:29:07 pm

He is in the SEC. What is the going rate for an SEC coach?

Orgeron's market value should be right below Barry Odom at Mizzou who makes 2.3 million based on the two coaches conference records
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 12:29:44 pm
My question is why are incentive clauses only built into contracts to benefit coaches?  Coaches get bonuses for winning conference and national championships, graduation rates and GPA's of players, bowl games, etc...

Why don't universities get incentive clauses to make sure that the coach retains his current market value when the contract is signed? We paid 4 mil a year to BB based off of his impressive accomplishments at Wisconsin, which was a fair market value. We are still paying that market value 6 years later even though his current market value is much less based on his performance here at Arkansas. There needs to be a long term type incentive clause for the university such as in year 5 and 6 of the contract the coach must have a .500 record in conference play for those 2 years or the 15.4 million dollar buyout is reduced to fairer number like 5-8 million.


For one of was 5 years ago

For two the whole reason for a termination buyout goes against what you're saying it should be

It's just not the way it works.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: 311Hog on October 04, 2017, 12:29:50 pm
Orgeron's market value should be right below Barry Odom at Mizzou who makes 2.3 million based on the two coaches conference records

you fail to understand or comprehend the power of the rosy finch. pardon the error
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:31:10 pm
Do you think LSu was going to get someone for 1 or 2mil when the rest of the coaches in the division are all getting 4+?

Exactly! thanks for making my point. They hired a 1 to 2 million dollar coach for 4. Which goes back to the AD making a horrible business decision
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 12:31:34 pm
Orgeron's market value should be right below Barry Odom at Mizzou who makes 2.3 million based on the two coaches conference records

Odom isn't in the West he also hasn't been around as long as Ed



It's moot anyway. People on message boards don't give "market value " for coaches. The schools who pay them do.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 12:32:10 pm
Exactly! thanks for making my point. They hired a 1 to 2 million dollar coach for 4. Which goes back to the AD making a horrible business decision


Stop trying to say that is your point when it wasn't lol
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 12:33:49 pm
Exactly! thanks for making my point. They hired a 1 to 2 million dollar coach for 4. Which goes back to the AD making a horrible business decision

No, they hired a coach for 3.5 mil because that is what it costs to hire a coach in the secw. Just because you have assigned some # you think he is worth does not make it so. IF BB leaves today, how much do you think the Hogs are going to have to pay to get someone in here? It would cost at least 3mil to get a current HC from a low fbs or high fcs program.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:36:23 pm

Stop trying to say that is your point when it wasn't lol

My point all along is that these AD's are in over their heads when it comes to these contracts, and you proved it for me by saying that LSU isn't going to pay 1 mil for a coach when everyone else is paying 4. Which is why when Tom Herman balked when LSU offered because of the upcoming Texas opening, Alleva crapped his pants and paid 4 million for a 1-2 million coach in Orgeron
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: phadedhawg on October 04, 2017, 12:38:49 pm
My point all along is that these AD's are in over their heads when it comes to these contracts, and you proved it for me by saying that LSU isn't going to pay 1 mil for a coach when everyone else is paying 4. Which is why when Tom Herman balked when LSU offered because of the upcoming Texas opening, Alleva crapped his pants and paid 4 million for a 1-2 million coach in Orgeron

So every athletic director is incorrect but if they had a guy like you around, everything could be resolved?  The ADs just don't realize how simple it all is bc they are so stupid?

right on
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:44:21 pm
No, they hired a coach for 3.5 mil because that is what it costs to hire a coach in the secw. Just because you have assigned some # you think he is worth does not make it so. IF BB leaves today, how much do you think the Hogs are going to have to pay to get someone in here? It would cost at least 3mil to get a current HC from a low fbs or high fcs program.

You don't understand. You have to be objective on WHO each school is paying to be their coach, not just how much. The going rate of 3.5 mil is based off of coaches leaving previous schools with high market values. Sumlin, Bielema, Gus, Freeze all came to the West fresh off great seasons at their previous stops. This is certainly not the case with Orgeron.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 12:46:08 pm
So every athletic director is incorrect but if they had a guy like you around, everything could be resolved?  The ADs just don't realize how simple it all is bc they are so stupid?

right on


An AD is only as smart as his last hire. Pretty sure the Alabama, Clemson, Washington AD's are riding high right now. Look how many people are calling for Long, and Alleva's heads based off of the bad contracts they signed their coaches to
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 01:01:16 pm
My point all along is that these AD's are in over their heads when it comes to these contracts, and you proved it for me by saying that LSU isn't going to pay 1 mil for a coach when everyone else is paying 4. Which is why when Tom Herman balked when LSU offered because of the upcoming Texas opening, Alleva crapped his pants and paid 4 million for a 1-2 million coach in Orgeron



No. Orgeron was a bad hire for LSU. No one's arguing that

You initial argument was about large buyouts. Probably because Bret's is so high but whatever


Now you're  changing your argument to a "LSU is paying orgeron too much " argument cause you were clueless on your first assumption.

All the long trying to save face. Go on.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 01:02:18 pm

An AD is only as smart as his last hire. Pretty sure the Alabama, Clemson, Washington AD's are riding high right now. Look how many people are calling for Long, and Alleva's heads based off of the bad contracts they signed their coaches to


As this might come as a sad punch to hogville,  no one worth a damn is calling for longs head.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contacts get fixed?
Post by: ArkansasI on October 04, 2017, 01:07:44 pm
So if you look at the 3 coaches in the SEC with the hottest seats they are currently (and this seems to change weekly) Bielema, Orgeron, and Butch Jones.

These three men have complied a combined SEC record of 31-67. (BB 10-23, EO 7-24, BJ 14-20)
Compared to a combined buyout of 36.6 million dollars. (BB 15.4M, EO 12M, BJ 9.2M)

How did these three schools get to this place? Are these AD's really that incompetent?

My question is how does the actual negotiating process work? Do these AD's get any 'help' from university lawyers, or any other outside influences? I ask this because it most certainly seems as though these AD's are way in over their collective heads when dealing with these coaches agents. These agents eat, sleep and breathe contracts. They stand to benefit greatly personally by creating the best most airtight contract possible. AD's on the other hand probably spend 99% percent of their time doing duties other than contract negotiations. Does anyone feel that Arkansas is going to get a fair contract when it's representative spends more time at fidget spinner night at volleyball matches than negotiating contracts? I invite you to research Neil Cornrich who is BB's agent. After you do imagine how hard he was laughing after getting BB's contract signed.


How does the playing field get leveled? Is it possible to have the SEC hire a sports agent that would work with each school's AD to negotiate the fine details of each contract? This seems like a good investment considering how many SEC AD's seem to be utterly in over their head when dealing with high profile agents.
I'm with you...  Coaching contracts are out of control.  It's a significant part of what drives fans' unreasonable expectations.  There's too much at stake in college athletics.

     -  Proven head coaches don't leave a secure job without a secure compensation package.

     -  Once successful at a particular school, the coach "earns" a ridiculous compensation package because the university fears he will jump ship - which, for a variety of reasons, is more likely an issue at some universities than others.

Beyond athletics, executives everywhere have managed to contractually protect themselves.  This is why I laugh at the idea that any particular school will struggle to find a head coach.  These are premium jobs - no matter how difficult.

Personally, I'm waiting for an AD to get some balls by paying a guy what he's truly worth - maybe $1M to start.  College fans are helplessly devoted to their institutions, not the men coaching them.  There are unique exceptions, but we mostly will pay stupid money because we want our university to be successful - we're not interested in making coaches rich.

Many will correctly argue that the two are inseparable.  And while true, the better question is what is the greater influence upon success - coach or university?  The Michigan job is worth $$$$ simply because it is Michigan.  The man at Wyoming is worth $ simply because it is Wyoming.

Time to turn the table on these guys.  I'd find a guy who shows great promise and pay him a fair wage.  If successful, then reward him accordingly.

Starting at a huge figure at Arkansas is not a formula for success.  The last two hires at Oklahoma have been assistant coaches.  Stoops earned a fortune.  We'll see how well the current guy does.

People may be mad at Jeff for giving Bret a golden parachute.  Based upon where Bret came from, what he inherited and the apparent direction of the program at the time of the deal was restructured, that's what Jeff thought was necessary to protect the program.  Having a huge buyout tells recruits the program is in good hands and that the guy recruiting him is going to be there a while.

It's easy to point fingers in year 5 when things don't look as many hoped.  I'm of the opinion that you can't buy success at Arkansas - it must be earned.

Good conversation OP.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 01:23:04 pm
I'm with you...  Coaching contracts are out of control.  It's a significant part of what drives fans' unreasonable expectations.  There's too much at stake in college athletics.

     -  Proven head coaches don't leave a secure job without a secure compensation package.

     -  Once successful at a particular school, the coach "earns" a ridiculous compensation package because the university fears he will jump ship - which, for a variety of reasons, is more likely an issue at some universities than others.

Beyond athletics, executives everywhere have managed to contractually protect themselves.  This is why I laugh at the idea that any particular school will struggle to find a head coach.  These are premium jobs - no matter how difficult.

Personally, I'm waiting for an AD to get some balls by paying a guy what he's truly worth - maybe $1M to start.  College fans are helplessly devoted to their institutions, not the men coaching them.  There are unique exceptions, but we mostly will pay stupid money because we want our university to be successful - we're not interested in making coaches rich.

Many will correctly argue that the two are inseparable.  And while true, the better question is what is the greater influence upon success - coach or university?  The Michigan job is worth $$$$ simply because it is Michigan.  The man at Wyoming is worth $ simply because it is Wyoming.

Time to turn the table on these guys.  I'd find a guy who shows great promise and pay him a fair wage.  If successful, then reward him accordingly.

Starting at a huge figure at Arkansas is not a formula for success.  The last two hires at Oklahoma have been assistant coaches.  Stoops earned a fortune.  We'll see how well the current guy does.

People may be mad at Jeff for giving Bret a golden parachute.  Based upon where Bret came from, what he inherited and the apparent direction of the program at the time of the deal was restructured, that's what Jeff thought was necessary to protect the program.  Having a huge buyout tells recruits the program is in good hands and that the guy recruiting him is going to be there a while.

It's easy to point fingers in year 5 when things don't look as many hoped.  I'm of the opinion that you can't buy success at Arkansas - it must be earned.

Good conversation OP.

But you are just setting a number based on what YOU think a guy is worth. Right now the market in the secw is at least 3.5mil, so anyone taking one of those jobs is going to expect such. You are not going to bring a guy into a secw job and get him for 1mil. As with most topics here, this one is not grounded in reality. 
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 01:29:12 pm


No. Orgeron was a bad hire for LSU. No one's arguing that

You initial argument was about large buyouts. Probably because Bret's is so high but whatever


Now you're  changing your argument to a "LSU is paying orgeron too much " argument cause you were clueless on your first assumption.

All the long trying to save face. Go on.

Just trying to make the point that these AD's are in over their heads with these buyouts and something needs to change to allow universities some Lee way when accessing coaches down the road. LSU can't fire O because they are still paying miles, and Johnnie jones.

I get that you're ok with Bielema's contract. It's just that I'm not, I think the contracts need to be tweaked some to incorporate more incentive for wins from a university standpoint. I'd be willing to bet no up and coming coach would have a problem with a reduced buyout in year 5 and 6 of his contract if he was below .500 in the league those two years.

Does it not bother you that bielema has zero negative financial consequences if he never wins another football game at arkansas? He could sleep late everyday, put next to zero effort recruiting, and get blown out by 50 points and the university is still obligated to pay him his full buyout? Because short of pulling a pitino or petrino he's guaranteed his money.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: radar on October 04, 2017, 01:44:06 pm
There are a lot of young assistant coaches, and head coaches at smaller schools who are anxious to prove themselves at the higher level. I am sure many of them would be willing to take on the challenge of the sec without the crazy contracts and buyouts we are seeing now.
The sad thing for us and the other schools is that these young hungry coaches would probably do a better job than the high dollar retreads.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 01:51:25 pm
Just trying to make the point that these AD's are in over their heads with these buyouts and something needs to change to allow universities some Lee way when accessing coaches down the road. LSU can't fire O because they are still paying miles, and Johnnie jones.

I get that you're ok with Bielema's contract. It's just that I'm not, I think the contracts need to be tweaked some to incorporate more incentive for wins from a university standpoint. I'd be willing to bet no up and coming coach would have a problem with a reduced buyout in year 5 and 6 of his contract if he was below .500 in the league those two years.

Does it not bother you that bielema has zero negative financial consequences if he never wins another football game at arkansas? He could sleep late everyday, put next to zero effort recruiting, and get blown out by 50 points and the university is still obligated to pay him his full buyout? Because short of pulling a pitino or petrino he's guaranteed his money.


Good for him. As are most coaches that are coaching at that level. He also doesn't want to get fired so I'm sure that is a motivating factor in him trying to get the job done.


Like I said, the next guy is going to have the same deal with the same buyout. As salaries go up so do buyouts. If the bubble gets too big it will deflate. There is nothing you or I can do about it. It's just the business.

I mean I'm not going to have to write a check to make him go away, are you?


You're mad that Bielema isn't winning enough and you're taking it out on the contract which is kind of funny because if he doesn't get to 6 wins he will probably be paid 15MM to go away.


Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 01:51:28 pm
There are a lot of young assistant coaches, and head coaches at smaller schools who are anxious to prove themselves at the higher level. I am sure many of them would be willing to take on the challenge of the sec without the crazy contracts and buyouts we are seeing now.
The sad thing for us and the other schools is that these young hungry coaches would probably do a better job than the high dollar retreads.

That is quite possible. The only thing there is which school is going to bite the bullet and hire someone no one has ever heard of to some in and try to compete with Saban? Imagine for a moment that BB is gone after this year and the Hogs hire the HC from, lets say, Marshall. Or the OC from San Diego St. Can you imagine the uproar. The " Is this truly the best we could get " type of stuff?
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 01:53:58 pm
There are a lot of young assistant coaches, and head coaches at smaller schools who are anxious to prove themselves at the higher level. I am sure many of them would be willing to take on the challenge of the sec without the crazy contracts and buyouts we are seeing now.
The sad thing for us and the other schools is that these young hungry coaches would probably do a better job than the high dollar retreads.


This board is going to go insane if Bielema is fired and we get one of those coaches......


And guess what? They will most likely demand a 4MM salary with a buyout that will pay the remainder of their contract if they are terminated early.

Your logic is flawed.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: GolfnHog on October 04, 2017, 01:54:53 pm


Does it not bother you that bielema has zero negative financial consequences if he never wins another football game at arkansas? He could sleep late everyday, put next to zero effort recruiting, and get blown out by 50 points and the university is still obligated to pay him his full buyout? Because short of pulling a pitino or petrino he's guaranteed his money.

Based on your suppositions in the example above I believe that somewhere in the contract a case could be made for "dereliction of duty" and a show cause could be effected to void the buyout. All that being said, I seriously doubt the haters and supporters of Bielema will have this scenario as talking points. Next?
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: DoctorSusscrofa on October 04, 2017, 01:56:15 pm
If you want to learn how to negotiate with a coach and his agent, lawyer, and accountant, I suggest you get some experience by hiring a coach.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 02:04:53 pm
[quote author=rhames link=topic=638925.msg11004144#msg11004144 date=1507143085

You're mad that Bielema isn't winning enough and you're taking it out on the contract which is kind of funny because if he doesn't get to 6 wins he will probably be paid 15MM to go away.
[/quote]


Yes! You get it! i am mad at the 15 million he'll get to drastically under perform
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 02:05:46 pm
[quote author=rhames link=topic=638925.msg11004144#msg11004144 date=1507143085

You're mad that Bielema isn't winning enough and you're taking it out on the contract which is kind of funny because if he doesn't get to 6 wins he will probably be paid 15MM to go away.



Yes! You get it! i am mad at the 15 million he'll get to drastically under perform

If this was not the norm for P% coaches, I would agree with you, but they all have buyouts I find absurd.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 04, 2017, 02:06:25 pm

I mean that's what he got paid.....which is about a million less than the next coasch in the West


And that's what LSU paid him so by definition that's his marker value.



And they may finish last in the West so in a sense they are getting what they paid for 




I think LSU hired him on the cheap, at least $2m less than Herman, due to Miles buyout.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:07:24 pm
[quote author=rhames link=topic=638925.msg11004144#msg11004144 date=1507143085

You're mad that Bielema isn't winning enough and you're taking it out on the contract which is kind of funny because if he doesn't get to 6 wins he will probably be paid 15MM to go away.



Yes! You get it! i am mad at the 15 million he'll get to drastically under perform



Are you paying the buyout? Why would you be mad? What difference does it make to you? He will be getting he 15MM to go away so how could he under perform then?


Seems like maybe you could put your effort into caring about other things. Things you have control over. Might enjoy life a little more!
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:08:16 pm
I think LSU hired him on the cheap, at least $2m less than Herman, due to Miles buyout.


I agree.
 
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 02:11:50 pm


Are you paying the buyout? Why would you be mad? What difference does it make to you? He will be getting he 15MM to go away so how could he under perform then?


Seems like maybe you could put your effort into caring about other things. Things you have control over. Might enjoy life a little more!

Careful, for some Hog football apparently is all they have.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:13:15 pm
Careful, for some Hog football apparently is all they have.


Hey I'm someone who has been critical of the coaches, although in a reasonable way. This is just a silly thing to be upset about.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hogsanity on October 04, 2017, 02:17:12 pm

Hey I'm someone who has been critical of the coaches, although in a reasonable way. This is just a silly thing to be upset about.

I agree. I just think some people, not saying you, are too wrapped up in the outcome of a game played by 18-22 yr olds.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 02:19:27 pm
I think LSU hired him on the cheap, at least $2m less than Herman, due to Miles buyout.

Haha! Comparing Herman to Orgeron! Might as well say they saved 7 million on not hiring Saban back
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:19:37 pm
I agree. I just think some people, not saying you, are too wrapped up in the outcome of a game played by 18-22 yr olds.

Indeed
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:20:30 pm
Haha! Comparing Herman to Orgeron! Might as well say they saved 7 million on not hiring Saban back


He wasn't comparing........
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 02:24:26 pm

He wasn't comparing........

He was comparing Orgerons market value to Hermans market value
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:31:50 pm
He was comparing Orgerons market value to Hermans market value


No he said they saved money by hiring orgeron and missing out on Herman


If I say I saved money by going to McDonald's by not going to Ruth's Chris doesn't mean I'm comparing them because they aren't compareble. Two totally different options.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 02:52:39 pm


Are you paying the buyout? Why would you be mad? What difference does it make to you? He will be getting he 15MM to go away so how could he under perform then?


Well I have been a season ticket holder and contributor to the razorback foundation for the past 11 years, so yes my money would go toward the buyout. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the U of A only pays a small portion of his salary with the majority being paid from the foundation. I also believe that any buyout comes from the razorback foundation.

However if Uncle Jerry wants to swoop in and pay the buyout then I won't say a word, and I'll be fine with it.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 02:57:51 pm
Well I have been a season ticket holder and contributor to the razorback foundation for the past 11 years, so yes my money would go toward the buyout. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the U of A only pays a small portion of his salary with the majority being paid from the foundation. I also believe that any buyout comes from the razorback foundation.

However if Uncle Jerry wants to swoop in and pay the buyout then I won't say a word, and I'll be fine with it.


Cool so let's do some math. How much do you pay a year? Let's compare that percentage wise to the buyout and that is the number, percentage wise, of how much you're allowed to be mad


The buyout would  be payed out of the revenue stream that includes SEC network money, along with donations.


You also have a choice to not donate.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: GoHogs1091 on October 04, 2017, 04:07:48 pm
Their contracts won't get fixed.

At some point all 3 schools (Arkansas, LSU, and Tennessee) will have to pay the excessive undeserved buyout.

Then, at 2 of the schools the A.D. will probably be shown the door.  Those 2 being LSU and Tennessee.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 04, 2017, 04:25:15 pm

Cool so let's do some math. How much do you pay a year? Let's compare that percentage wise to the buyout and that is the number, percentage wise, of how much you're allowed to be mad


The buyout would  be payed out of the revenue stream that includes SEC network money, along with donations.


You also have a choice to not donate.

Actually, the Foundation is the third party guarantee of the buyout.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 04:27:57 pm

Cool so let's do some math. How much do you pay a year? Let's compare that percentage wise to the buyout and that is the number, percentage wise, of how much you're allowed to be mad


The buyout would  be payed out of the revenue stream that includes SEC network money, along with donations.


You also have a choice to not donate.

I just went back and re-read your posts from this thread. In all honesty do you have a personal connection to Jeff long? His wife, or daughter perhaps? If so I totally get the blind loyalty.

You may be the first person I've heard that thinks these coaches contracts are totally fair and that there is no need or possibility of a need to rethink the way they are structured. You and I are just destined to disagree about it.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: HogPharmer on October 04, 2017, 04:32:22 pm
I just went back and re-read your posts from this thread. In all honesty do you have a personal connection to Jeff long? His wife, or daughter perhaps? If so I totally get the blind loyalty.

You may be the first person I've heard that thinks these coaches contracts are totally fair and that there is no need or possibility of a need to rethink the way they are structured. You and I are just destined to disagree about it.

I don't think he's saying it's "fair." He's stating that the contracts just are the way they are. It's not like the UofA is the only school with coaching contracts like BB's.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 04:34:42 pm
Actually, the Foundation is the third party guarantee of the buyout.

Good to know
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 04, 2017, 04:35:56 pm
I just went back and re-read your posts from this thread. In all honesty do you have a personal connection to Jeff long? His wife, or daughter perhaps? If so I totally get the blind loyalty.

You may be the first person I've heard that thinks these coaches contracts are totally fair and that there is no need or possibility of a need to rethink the way they are structured. You and I are just destined to disagree about it.



I'm his best friend's cousin's neighbor



All I'm pointing out is that his contract is pretty normal compared to other coaches at this level




Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 04:36:32 pm
I don't think he's saying it's "fair." He's stating that the contracts just are the way they are. It's not like the UofA is the only school with coaching contracts like BB's.

Hence me starting a thread with intentions of discussing ways of fixing these bad contracts. Instead all he is saying is that this is the way it is, no way to change it which is total bs. All it will take is for one forward thinking ad to add a few university based incentives for the contracts to start to be tweaked
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: jcbville on October 04, 2017, 04:40:43 pm
I just went back and re-read your posts from this thread. In all honesty do you have a personal connection to Jeff long? His wife, or daughter perhaps? If so I totally get the blind loyalty.

You may be the first person I've heard that thinks these coaches contracts are totally fair and that there is no need or possibility of a need to rethink the way they are structured. You and I are just destined to disagree about it.

If I may be so bold. He didnt say they were fair. Fair is a relative term. What he said is they represent where the market is at currently, regardless of whether or not you think the contracts are fair, they are in fact reality. They are reality because they are the current market standard. And I'll shock your neurons a little more and tell you they are the current market standard in large part due to insanely fickle fan bases (Especially in the SEC). Contracts asked for by coaches and their agents and given by the schools to insulate the coach and the athletic dept. So that the ADs wont become scared politicians swaying to the every whim of the mob when they don't feel like they're getting their way. Its a check against emotion and the mob mentality.

A promise to the coach of a certain timeline of protection.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 04, 2017, 04:44:47 pm
Hence me starting a thread with intentions of discussing ways of fixing these bad contracts. Instead all he is saying is that this is the way it is, no way to change it which is total bs. All it will take is for one forward thinking ad to add a few university based incentives for the contracts to start to be tweaked

Good luck on your next hire if school "A" is offering a full 6 year guarantee.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: HogPharmer on October 04, 2017, 05:45:28 pm
Good luck on your next hire if school "A" is offering a full 6 year guarantee.

Exactly... If ONE school with the "forward thinking AD" comes out and does what is being suggested, they will lose whatever top notch coach they are going after. If you could somehow get all the schools on board at the same time (which is literally impossible) to change the way these contracts are written, it may be possible. You're (not you rp) basically asking for a lemon law on coaches.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: 12247 on October 04, 2017, 07:11:36 pm
I guess the answer to the op is just pay the fiddler.  It hurts, but pay.

Real Question is how did this happen:  I think it was one of the principals, maybe Peter, i can't remember.

Anyway, these coaches have risen to their level of incompetence.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Drop the Mike on October 04, 2017, 07:49:30 pm
Good luck on your next hire if school "A" is offering a full 6 year guarantee.

This is where I disagree. Coaches, especially ones like we have in question here, have never failed in implementing their system and producing wins. Sumlin at Houston, BB at Wisconsin, jones at cincy all left those schools to jump into the cage fight known as the sec. Not for one second did any of them doubt that they would be successful. Cue the BB press conference were he says that he came to win the sec.

This is why it's not far fetched to believe that an AD could write in the contract that he is offering 4-5 years guaranteed and on the 5th and 6th seasons the coach needs at least a .500 record in conference to retain the full guaranteed money. I can't believe that would be an obstacle for a coach dying to be in the sec and has never had a .500 record before.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: Arkansas Traveler on October 04, 2017, 07:51:56 pm
Now is as good a place as any to ask what incentive an established coach has to come to a middle of the pack program in the SEC. I canít think of one. That might even be more of an issue if Bielema canít make it work here.


Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ArkansasI on October 04, 2017, 10:16:47 pm
Now is as good a place as any to ask what incentive an established coach has to come to a middle of the pack program in the SEC. I canít think of one. That might even be more of an issue if Bielema canít make it work here.
Exactly.  I think the OP makes an interesting point about setting the tone for future contracts.  Seems a lot of us are stuck on what is rather than what could (even should) be.

There are no guarantees in the business of college football.

My gosh, we turn pretty hard against these guys when things aren't going extremely well.  I wonder if a coach came in at a reasonable number... would Razorback fans better support the coach when things aren't going well?  A poor fellow getting paid just $1M against all these guys earning 3x's as much... Would we root for him as an underdog or would we think we'd win more if we'd just paid more?

Troy doesn't spend near the resources LSU does on facilities and coaches.  Yet, the Trojans beat the Tigers in Death Valley last weekend.  The Hogs have lost games to Toledo, and others I prefer not to recall.  It doesn't happen frequently, but it happens enough to let us know that there is more parity among coaching talent than we care to admit. 

Or maybe the Hogs should throw $3M at the Troy coach.

I think it is fair to wonder if we might rekindle the Razorback fight in all of us if coaching salaries weren't so disproportionate to our own.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 05, 2017, 06:25:37 am
This is where I disagree. Coaches, especially ones like we have in question here, have never failed in implementing their system and producing wins. Sumlin at Houston, BB at Wisconsin, jones at cincy all left those schools to jump into the cage fight known as the sec. Not for one second did any of them doubt that they would be successful. Cue the BB press conference were he says that he came to win the sec.

This is why it's not far fetched to believe that an AD could write in the contract that he is offering 4-5 years guaranteed and on the 5th and 6th seasons the coach needs at least a .500 record in conference to retain the full guaranteed money. I can't believe that would be an obstacle for a coach dying to be in the sec and has never had a .500 record before.

That's what the above had, and after a couple of years, they got extensions with bigger salaries and buyouts. In case you haven't noticex, the price to pay poker has gone up tremendously in the past 5-6 years. I'm guess all 128 FBS AD's are  as dum as a box of rocks. While your idea might be good in theory, good luck in getting it practiced.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: ricepig on October 05, 2017, 06:30:01 am
Exactly.  I think the OP makes an interesting point about setting the tone for future contracts.  Seems a lot of us are stuck on what is rather than what could (even should) be.

There are no guarantees in the business of college football.

My gosh, we turn pretty hard against these guys when things aren't going extremely well.  I wonder if a coach came in at a reasonable number... would Razorback fans better support the coach when things aren't going well?  A poor fellow getting paid just $1M against all these guys earning 3x's as much... Would we root for him as an underdog or would we think we'd win more if we'd just paid more?

Troy doesn't spend near the resources LSU does on facilities and coaches.  Yet, the Trojans beat the Tigers in Death Valley last weekend.  The Hogs have lost games to Toledo, and others I prefer not to recall.  It doesn't happen frequently, but it happens enough to let us know that there is more parity among coaching talent than we care to admit. 

Or maybe the Hogs should throw $3M at the Troy coach.

I think it is fair to wonder if we might rekindle the Razorback fight in all of us if coaching salaries weren't so disproportionate to our own.

Have you quit going to the movies, quit watching any sports, quit shopping at "XYZ"? If one is going to let the salaries of someone else effect their enjoyment of something, then you should never leave the house.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hawganatic on October 05, 2017, 07:25:05 am

This is why it's not far fetched to believe that an AD could write in the contract that he is offering 4-5 years guaranteed and on the 5th and 6th seasons the coach needs at least a .500 record in conference to retain the full guaranteed money. I can't believe that would be an obstacle for a coach dying to be in the sec and has never had a .500 record before.

Coaches aren't dying to be in the SEC.  They are coming here BECAUSE of the guaranteed money they are being offered.

Do you think a coach is going to go to a school like Vanderbilt or Kentucky if the only criteria they are going to be judged on is a .500+ conference record?  The SEC is the most visible, most competitive, most grimding conference to win in.  No coach that has other options is going to step into that unless it is one of the elites (Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, FL) without having some kind of parachute for if things don't go as planned.

You're talking about uprooting their family, essentially putting their career on the line (BB is no where near as hot a name as he used to be), and uprooting his assistant's lives/families.  They aren't going to do to do that unless they have some kind of guarantee that the school isn't going to have a knee jerk reaction to a game like LSU had last weekend.

As far as coaches having low to no buyouts on their end, they are the employee, not the employer.  The employer always carries the heavier burden.  Do you have any financial consequences if you leave your job for a better gig?  The company you work for sure does.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hawganatic on October 05, 2017, 07:29:01 am
My gosh, we turn pretty hard against these guys when things aren't going extremely well.  I wonder if a coach came in at a reasonable number... would Razorback fans better support the coach when things aren't going well? 

You just described why the contracts have to have these huge buyouts.  Because the fanbase does turn so hard against them. 

And if a coach came in at a mill, the general attitude would be "we need to open up the check book and get one of these 4 mill a year guys," or "what kind of coach with any confidence comes in that low.  He doesn't even know his own value, how can he run a program?"
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 05, 2017, 07:29:04 am
Coaches aren't dying to be in the SEC.  They are coming here BECAUSE of the guaranteed money they are being offered.

Do you think a coach is going to go to a school like Vanderbilt or Kentucky if the only criteria they are going to be judged on is a .500+ conference record?  The SEC is the most visible, most competitive, most grimding conference to win in.  No coach that has other options is going to step into that unless it is one of the elites (Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, FL) without having some kind of parachute for if things don't go as planned.

You're talking about uprooting their family, essentially putting their career on the line (BB is no where near as hot a name as he used to be), and uprooting his assistant's lives/families.  They aren't going to do to do that unless they have some kind of guarantee that the school isn't going to have a knee jerk reaction to a game like LSU had last weekend.

As far as coaches having low to no buyouts on their end, they are the employee, not the employer.  The employer always carries the heavier burden.  Do you have any financial consequences if you leave your job for a better gig?  The company you work for sure does.



I'm sure chili's would be able to replace him pretty quickly
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: hawganatic on October 05, 2017, 08:29:45 am


I'm sure chili's would be able to replace him pretty quickly

Right, but then the Chili's management has to take time out of their day to interview, do some kind of background check, and then take other resources to teach his replacement how to clear and wipe down the tables, replace the urinal cakes, and mop when the restaurant is closed.  It's not a hard job, but it is still a resource drain...

All the while he's living the good life down the street at McDonald's making that fat $$$ working the deep fryer.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 05, 2017, 08:37:08 am
Right, but then the Chili's management has to take time out of their day to interview, do some kind of background check, and then take other resources to teach his replacement how to clear and wipe down the tables, replace the urinal cakes, and mop when the restaurant is closed.  It's not a hard job, but it is still a resource drain...

All the while he's living the good life down the street at McDonald's making that fat $$$ working the deep fryer.

+1
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: DoctorSusscrofa on October 05, 2017, 10:55:01 am
Let's say for argument's sake that BB's agent wanted the big buyout clause and suggested that without it BB could entertain other offers from teams that might be willing to agree to such a buyout.  At the time it happened we all still had some optimism that BB might go from 7-6 in year two to 8-5 in year three, and maybe 9-4 or 10-3 in year four. NOW,  of course, we don't have that optimism any more and big buyouts seem ugly.  But what if Long had said no to a contract extension and a buyout clause and after year three BB had bolted to some other team that was willing to take him off our hands and pay whatever he wanted or needed in order to leave?  Would we have loved starting over?  Would we have said good riddance at that time?  ADs have to negotiate and they have to make guesses about what a coach can do.  And most of BBs worst failings have been things nobody expected.  No one seriously worried (before it happened) that we'd lose to Toledo. (Sure, we knew Toledo was one of the better small schools, but nobody was really terrified that they'd beat us.)  And after the Miss St game last year, not many were thinking, "Oh, my God we have to play Missouri. Run for your lives!"  And I don't think many of us were thinking during halftime against VT that we'll get outscored 30+ to zip in the second half.  We may have worried about whether we could hold on to win, but most of us weren't thinking that we'd do another total 100% meltdown.  I figured we'd score 7 or 10 and VT would score enough to either barely beat us or barely lose, but I thought we'd at least have a decent showing after having done well in the first half.
I just believe that the buyout was a gamble on a coach that seemed to be moving in the right direction at the time.  We wanted to keep a coach for more than 4 years, and we gambled it was him.  And then he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So we're P O'd because we gambled and it blew up on us.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 05, 2017, 11:13:42 am
Let's say for argument's sake that BB's agent wanted the big buyout clause and suggested that without it BB could entertain other offers from teams that might be willing to agree to such a buyout.  At the time it happened we all still had some optimism that BB might go from 7-6 in year two to 8-5 in year three, and maybe 9-4 or 10-3 in year four. NOW,  of course, we don't have that optimism any more and big buyouts seem ugly.  But what if Long had said no to a contract extension and a buyout clause and after year three BB had bolted to some other team that was willing to take him off our hands and pay whatever he wanted or needed in order to leave?  Would we have loved starting over?  Would we have said good riddance at that time?  ADs have to negotiate and they have to make guesses about what a coach can do.  And most of BBs worst failings have been things nobody expected.  No one seriously worried (before it happened) that we'd lose to Toledo. (Sure, we knew Toledo was one of the better small schools, but nobody was really terrified that they'd beat us.)  And after the Miss St game last year, not many were thinking, "Oh, my God we have to play Missouri. Run for your lives!"  And I don't think many of us were thinking during halftime against VT that we'll get outscored 30+ to zip in the second half.  We may have worried about whether we could hold on to win, but most of us weren't thinking that we'd do another total 100% meltdown.  I figured we'd score 7 or 10 and VT would score enough to either barely beat us or barely lose, but I thought we'd at least have a decent showing after having done well in the first half.
I just believe that the buyout was a gamble on a coach that seemed to be moving in the right direction at the time.  We wanted to keep a coach for more than 4 years, and we gambled it was him.  And then he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So we're P O'd because we gambled and it blew up on us.


Except the buyout for him to leave for another job isn't 15MM.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: DoctorSusscrofa on October 05, 2017, 11:45:24 am

Except the buyout for him to leave for another job isn't 15MM.

That doesn't change the fact that a coach might be more likely to leave if the school doesn't agree to a big buyout and he might be less inclined to leave if they agree to give him a big buyout clause.  The big buyout clause gives him cover while he's trying to build his program.  If an AD refuses to grant such a buyout, he might be inclined to entertain other schools offers after an 8 win season rather than risk another season at a school where building the program is difficult.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: rhames on October 05, 2017, 11:47:29 am
That doesn't change the fact that a coach might be more likely to leave if the school doesn't agree to a big buyout and he might be less inclined to leave if they agree to give him a big buyout clause.  The big buyout clause gives him cover while he's trying to build his program.  If an AD refuses to grant such a buyout, he might be inclined to entertain other schools offers after an 8 win season rather than risk another season at a school where building the program is difficult.


True 
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: DoctorSusscrofa on October 05, 2017, 11:54:29 am
In our case it backfired. BB still managed to regress in year 4, lose to a team he really couldn't afford to lose to (Toledo), and lose two games this year to teams we fans have historical reasons for believing we should always beat more than they beat us.  He got the buyout and won the Unpopular Coach trifecta.
Title: Re: How do these coaches contracts get fixed?
Post by: HotlantaHog on October 05, 2017, 03:21:33 pm
Have no idea if CBB will survive this year or next.

Whoever is next, I hope Arkansas doesn't set up a big buyout in the future... if they want to leave, let them... if we want to fire him, let us... if that is a problem hiring a coach, hire an up and comer -- which is what we are likely to get anyway.