Hogville

RB Sports Discussion => Jump Ball => Topic started by: PLHawg on September 28, 2017, 10:49:37 am

Title: Paying Players
Post by: PLHawg on September 28, 2017, 10:49:37 am
All the talking heads are saying the issues we have with the black market for players will never be fixed until we start paying players.  How in the world could the NCAA ever regulate payments to players?  Wouldn't it still be an arms race to see who could offer players the most $, and even if it was regulated wouldn't there still be under the table "bonuses" for top players?  No way paying players could ever work in my opinion.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 28, 2017, 10:53:03 am
All the talking heads are saying the issues we have with the black market for players will never be fixed until we start paying players.  How in the world could the NCAA ever regulate payments to players?  Wouldn't it still be an arms race to see who could offer players the most $, and even if it was regulated wouldn't there still be under the table "bonuses" for top players?  No way paying players could ever work in my opinion.

then how about the NCAA doesn't make any money off the players?  just cut out all the millions of hard cash and just play the game for nothing or at cost.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: PLHawg on September 28, 2017, 10:59:17 am
then how about the NCAA doesn't make any money off the players?  just cut out all the millions of hard cash and just play the game for nothing or at cost.


I'm not against paying them per se, I think there should be some way to do it, I just don't see how it could ever be done without the same schools coming out on top year after year.  Seems like it would come down to who has the most $ in their war chest.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 28, 2017, 11:04:19 am

I'm not against paying them per se, I think there should be some way to do it, I just don't see how it could ever be done without the same schools coming out on top year after year.  Seems like it would come down to who has the most $ in their war chest.

how is that different from how it is now?

The only difference i see is the players are not getting their due cut.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 11:05:44 am
All the talking heads are saying the issues we have with the black market for players will never be fixed until we start paying players.  How in the world could the NCAA ever regulate payments to players?  Wouldn't it still be an arms race to see who could offer players the most $, and even if it was regulated wouldn't there still be under the table "bonuses" for top players?  No way paying players could ever work in my opinion.

You must of read the same article I just read. 

This is a great article by Jay Bilas that just came out this morning, you should definitely give it a read if you have not yet done so.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20841877/until-ncaa-solves-money-problem-pays-athletes-problems-continue
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 11:07:43 am
how is that different from how it is now?

The only difference i see is the players are not getting their due cut.

Exactly, I think the parity argument everyone brings up is lame, the parity could not possibly be any greater than it already is.

"Chris Spatola, a former college coach, Army veteran and point guard at West Point, has smartly analogized the current system of amateurism to Prohibition. Prohibition did not stop people from drinking; it just drove it underground and created a black-market economy. That is exactly what the NCAA is doing with players. These players are worth a ton of money, to schools, to agents and to shoe companies. And these players are worth far more than a scholarship. In fact, a scholarship is the LEAST they are worth. Schools do not have to offer scholarships, but do. They do not have to offer stipends, but do. If they didn't, they would be hurt in the marketplace, even though there is a unilaterally imposed wage cap on athletes."
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: LRHawg on September 28, 2017, 11:07:57 am
how is that different from how it is now?

The only difference i see is the players are not getting their due cut.

Exactly, it would just be another theatre of war in the college football arms race with facilities, coaching, etc.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 11:27:31 am
then how about the NCAA doesn't make any money off the players?  just cut out all the millions of hard cash and just play the game for nothing or at cost.

They are paid:

- Free tuition, boarding, meals, apparel, coaching, facilities, training, advertising, travel, medical care, tickets, potential back up plan to pro basketball etc. & etc.

If they prefer they can skip school, get a job, and train/practice on their own time until the NBA comes calling, and if not they already have a job in their future career.

Sorry quoted the wrong post.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 28, 2017, 11:33:52 am
They are paid:

- Free tuition, boarding, meals, apparel, coaching, facilities, training, advertising, travel, medical care, tickets, potential back up plan to pro basketball etc. & etc.

If they prefer they can skip school, get a job, and train/practice on their own time until the NBA comes calling, and if not they already have a job in their future career.

Sorry quoted the wrong post.

I think it is pretty much universally accepted that while players do get all you mentioned and more it is no where near their actual value. 

If it were than this black market for players would not exist.  People know that millions and millions of dollars are being made and that none of this would be possible without the players.  So being the big man on campus is pretty awesome, it is not nearly as awesome as being a millionaire at 20.  I mean entire sports are being subsidized by the profits generated by a handful.

I mean schools could totally suspend the tuition etc. portion pay them as employees and move on.

A choice will have to be made or has been made and not eveyone knows/agrees with it.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on September 28, 2017, 11:47:34 am
They are paid:

- Free tuition, boarding, meals, apparel, coaching, facilities, training, advertising, travel, medical care, tickets, potential back up plan to pro basketball etc. & etc.

If they prefer they can skip school, get a job, and train/practice on their own time until the NBA comes calling, and if not they already have a job in their future career.

Sorry quoted the wrong post.
.

Lol

They are limited in training/practice, facilities, can do more advertising in high school, travel?, what back up plan?

A bachelors degree is as close to worthless as a high school diploma these days. Being a former player is not worth what so many blowhards claim either. The majority of our championship team work low level jobs.

It is harder to excel academically being a player in one of the money sports because of demands on time.

Whether anyone thinks these guys should be paid or not is debatable. Claiming that they actually are is laughable.


Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Kevin on September 28, 2017, 12:29:18 pm
Paying them does not stop what has happened

For example, let's say all power 5 conference teams gave full scholarships plus $5000 a year to players.  That is not going to stop somebody paying the player $100,000 to go to a certain school
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 12:33:44 pm
Paying them does not stop what has happened

For example, let's say all power 5 conference teams gave full scholarships plus $5000 a year to players.  That is not going to stop somebody paying the player $100,000 to go to a certain school

Well then pay them what they are actually worth, $5,000 is not enough.  It may not completely solve the issue, but I definitely think it will help. 

Read this from Jay Bilas, it really made sense to me:

"When have you ever heard of a coach being steered to an agent? When have you ever heard of bribes to get a coach to accept a job? When have you ever heard of a bribe to get an athletic director to switch schools? You don't hear such things because those people are allowed to be paid in a free market. It is an aboveboard business, and it works in an orderly fashion. There are contracts with contract remedies. That pesky free market works incredibly well and efficiently for everyone else; it is foolish to assert that it would not work just as well for college athletes. After all, these schools know exactly whom to recruit and whom to play the most minutes in the games. They know whom to pay and how much."
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Cubbie08 on September 28, 2017, 12:45:57 pm
So you start paying athletes. Most of them now become state employees. Think about everything that will go along with that.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: STLhawg on September 28, 2017, 12:49:11 pm
I think it is pretty much universally accepted that while players do get all you mentioned and more it is no where near their actual value. 

If it were than this black market for players would not exist.
I say hogwash!  Some players are going to always want more.

If the player doesn't like the deal the NCCA/school is offering (meaning free tuition, boarding, meals, coaching, medical, etc.) then they are completely FREE to do something else.  What NEEDS to happen is that players need to be allowed to go straight from HS to the NBA if they so choose, and if they decide to go the college route then they need to commit to a minimum of two years -- so no more of this one-and-done BS!!
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 12:53:42 pm
You must of read the same article I just read. 

This is a great article by Jay Bilas that just came out this morning, you should definitely give it a read if you have not yet done so.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20841877/until-ncaa-solves-money-problem-pays-athletes-problems-continue
Not sure I'd say great. So many holes in his argument and he's just trying to use this scandal to push his narrative that he wants players to be paid or be able to use their own likeness. Not saying any of that is wrong, however, the bribery and paying to get a player to said campus is what the issue at hand is today. (The other part is really coaches to agents so paying players doesn't solve that.) You are still going to have people that want to influence players where to go. Now once they get there and you are paying them or they are allowed to make money off their likeness then great. But players and parents will still accept the bribe, and people are still going to make offers to get a certain player where they want him to go.

Jay is naive and wrong if he thinks paying players changes any of  that.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 12:56:12 pm
I think it is pretty much universally accepted that while players do get all you mentioned and more it is no where near their actual value. 

If it were than this black market for players would not exist.  People know that millions and millions of dollars are being made and that none of this would be possible without the players.  So being the big man on campus is pretty awesome, it is not nearly as awesome as being a millionaire at 20.  I mean entire sports are being subsidized by the profits generated by a handful.

The black market today is getting the player on campus. Not once he's there. Again, paying a player or letting him make money on his own likeness is all great. But most of these "payments" were while the athlete was still in high school. Coaches/agents/etc. are still going to try and push a recruit to a certain school....how are they going to do that $$$
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: STLhawg on September 28, 2017, 12:58:39 pm
Well then pay them what they are actually worth, $5,000 is not enough.  It may not completely solve the issue, but I definitely think it will help. 
That really won't help at all.  You really think the same players aren't going to take offers of $100k to go play for school X just because they get that?

Read this from Jay Bilas, it really made sense to me:

"When have you ever heard of a coach being steered to an agent? When have you ever heard of bribes to get a coach to accept a job? When have you ever heard of a bribe to get an athletic director to switch schools? You don't hear such things because those people are allowed to be paid in a free market. It is an aboveboard business, and it works in an orderly fashion. There are contracts with contract remedies. That pesky free market works incredibly well and efficiently for everyone else; it is foolish to assert that it would not work just as well for college athletes. After all, these schools know exactly whom to recruit and whom to play the most minutes in the games. They know whom to pay and how much."
Bilas is an idiot.  If all coaches were getting paid the same -- say $500k/year -- because that was the max allowable limit, then you better believe there would be under-the-table payments.  Coaches aren't all paid the same because they are PROFESSIONALS.  If a high school player doesn't want to live by the AMATEUR rules then let him go PRO instead!  That, along with better rule enforcement, is what is needed to clean up the college game!  If the NCAA really wants to clean things up they should have plenty of money to do that -- maybe this scandal is enough to "scare them straight".


Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 12:58:48 pm
Well then pay them what they are actually worth, $5,000 is not enough.  It may not completely solve the issue, but I definitely think it will help. 

Read this from Jay Bilas, it really made sense to me:

"When have you ever heard of a coach being steered to an agent? When have you ever heard of bribes to get a coach to accept a job? When have you ever heard of a bribe to get an athletic director to switch schools? You don't hear such things because those people are allowed to be paid in a free market. It is an aboveboard business, and it works in an orderly fashion. There are contracts with contract remedies. That pesky free market works incredibly well and efficiently for everyone else; it is foolish to assert that it would not work just as well for college athletes. After all, these schools know exactly whom to recruit and whom to play the most minutes in the games. They know whom to pay and how much."
You don't have bribes to get Coach X, because there aren't 100 schools after Coach X. Every year EVERY university has scholarships to give. Every year every college isn't looking for a head coach......The market for players and coaches are not even close to the same. Again like I said Jay Bilas completely missed the mark and was trying to push his "players should be paid" agenda.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: King Kong on September 28, 2017, 01:04:42 pm
It's a simple fix IMO. Allow players to make money off their likeness. However, the schools don't pay them anymore than what they are currently.

So if Arkansas can get a kid because a car dealership will offer him $75,000 to do a commercial so be it. Or if Nike wants to pay 100,000 for a 5 star to go to a Nike school so be it.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 01:10:38 pm
Not sure I'd say great. So many holes in his argument and he's just trying to use this scandal to push his narrative that he wants players to be paid or be able to use their own likeness. Not saying any of that is wrong, however, the bribery and paying to get a player to said campus is what the issue at hand is today. (The other part is really coaches to agents so paying players doesn't solve that.) You are still going to have people that want to influence players where to go. Now once they get there and you are paying them or they are allowed to make money off their likeness then great. But players and parents will still accept the bribe, and people are still going to make offers to get a certain player where they want him to go.

Jay is naive and wrong if he thinks paying players changes any of  that.

Well if the players start getting paid what they are worth in college, then the people will not have nearly the influence they have on these kids today because they will not be able to dazzle some $100 bills in their face to influence them.  Players will also want to stay in college instead of shooting to the NBA after 1 year because they do not need the money as bad, so they would be more likely to stay in school longer and get their degree.

I mainly do not like it now because when you really look at this system, it is completely unfair.  The NCAA is corrupt and only cares about the bottom line just like any other business.  You know if they were truly all about the students and the education, I would think differently, but their decisions are based on what will make them the most money. 

I think if the NCAA does not seriously start thinking about the players and putting them before their own self-interest, you will start seeing a huge trend of players going straight over seas out of highschool to make money for 1 year and then come back to the NBA.

Also, I completely agree that there holes in the paying players argument; but there are also a ton of holes in the current, currupt system and I honestly believe they have to make some major changes! I respect your opinion though.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Kevin on September 28, 2017, 01:14:17 pm
first I gave it as an example. plus, with title IX there is no way to pay a player.
if players believe that they are that good, then go to the nba.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 01:36:20 pm
.

Lol

They are limited in training/practice, facilities, can do more advertising in high school, travel?, what back up plan?

A bachelors degree is as close to worthless as a high school diploma these days. Being a former player is not worth what so many blowhards claim either. The majority of our championship team work low level jobs.

It is harder to excel academically being a player in one of the money sports because of demands on time.

Whether anyone thinks these guys should be paid or not is debatable. Claiming that they actually are is laughable.



- No more limited than they would be if they had a job and did it on their own. Advertising, as in on TV against other similarly skilled athletes. Free travel to games. College degree, better than High School diploma when it comes to getting a job outside of professional sports; name one professional possession that does not require a degree at the minimum (teacher/COACH, accountant, dr., nurse, engineer, lawyer, etc.).

- I guess by your own statement a college degree is worth more than you say, otherwise the non-degreed players from the '94 team would be working in something other than low level employment. There were also some players on that team that took advantage of their educational opportunities.

- Thanks, I missed this one, they get free tutors. Athletes do spend a lot of time training regardless of sport (money generating or not).

They can always choose not to play college, being a hardship and all. Sometimes you make some sacrifices today to reap the benefits tomorrow.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 01:40:47 pm
I think if the NCAA does not seriously start thinking about the players and putting them before their own self-interest, you will start seeing a huge trend of players going straight over seas out of highschool to make money for 1 year and then come back to the NBA.

Personally, I think this would make the game better. The game would be more about team work than individual play.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: HamIAm on September 28, 2017, 01:56:23 pm
apparently assistant coaches don't get paid or they wouldn't have taken the money
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: LRHawg on September 28, 2017, 01:56:32 pm
Personally, I think this would make the game better. The game would be more about team work than individual play.

if it starts happening with a lot of the elite prospects, then you know the money's dried up here...
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on September 28, 2017, 02:17:18 pm
- No more limited than they would be if they had a job and did it on their own. Advertising, as in on TV against other similarly skilled athletes. Free travel to games. College degree, better than High School diploma when it comes to getting a job outside of professional sports; name one professional possession that does not require a degree at the minimum (teacher/COACH, accountant, dr., nurse, engineer, lawyer, etc.).

- I guess by your own statement a college degree is worth more than you say, otherwise the non-degreed players from the '94 team would be working in something other than low level employment. There were also some players on that team that took advantage of their educational opportunities.

- Thanks, I missed this one, they get free tutors. Athletes do spend a lot of time training regardless of sport (money generating or not).

They can always choose not to play college, being a hardship and all. Sometimes you make some sacrifices today to reap the benefits tomorrow.

Pffft. You sound bitter.

Scotty Thurman made more money before he completed his degree than most of the guys that got their degrees on that team.

You forgot the best perk though. Athletes get to keep your girl company while you were working at McDonalds because you had no talent to get a scholly with. I'll hang up and listen.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 28, 2017, 02:39:17 pm
The black market today is getting the player on campus. Not once he's there. Again, paying a player or letting him make money on his own likeness is all great. But most of these "payments" were while the athlete was still in high school. Coaches/agents/etc. are still going to try and push a recruit to a certain school....how are they going to do that $$$

the defenses for this are pathetic at best.

You all clearly know that NBAish level basketball players are a RARE commodity all evidence points to this being a fact.  Rare things cost alot of money generally.

THere is no way in the world all of these people would risk JAIL TIME if it were not worth 100s of thousands of dollars to them, one of the reasons it is so lucrative is because the player themselves is not able to simply take what they are worth "yet".

So all these hands that are out are only getting fed because the player has no recourse in any other job it would not be the case.

I mean look at CEOs supposedly these people are the best of the best worth billions and companies engage in bidding wars for them all the time and no one bats an eye, but then you have a kid that could make money playing a sport because there is clearly money to be made, and they are forbade from doing so because everyone else has to get their cut first.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 02:52:41 pm
Well if the players start getting paid what they are worth in college, then the people will not have nearly the influence they have on these kids today because they will not be able to dazzle some $100 bills in their face to influence them.  Players will also want to stay in college instead of shooting to the NBA after 1 year because they do not need the money as bad, so they would be more likely to stay in school longer and get their degree.

I mainly do not like it now because when you really look at this system, it is completely unfair.  The NCAA is corrupt and only cares about the bottom line just like any other business.  You know if they were truly all about the students and the education, I would think differently, but their decisions are based on what will make them the most money. 

I think if the NCAA does not seriously start thinking about the players and putting them before their own self-interest, you will start seeing a huge trend of players going straight over seas out of highschool to make money for 1 year and then come back to the NBA.

Also, I completely agree that there holes in the paying players argument; but there are also a ton of holes in the current, currupt system and I honestly believe they have to make some major changes! I respect your opinion though.
Again, your argument is once they are in college. A lot of money trades hands before athletes even get into college. Heck half the coaches arrested, were arrested due to activities with 2018 recruits. Those guys aren't even there yet.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 02:55:27 pm
the defenses for this are pathetic at best.

You all clearly know that NBAish level basketball players are a RARE commodity all evidence points to this being a fact.  Rare things cost alot of money generally.

THere is no way in the world all of these people would risk JAIL TIME if it were not worth 100s of thousands of dollars to them, one of the reasons it is so lucrative is because the player themselves is not able to simply take what they are worth "yet".

So all these hands that are out are only getting fed because the player has no recourse in any other job it would not be the case.

I mean look at CEOs supposedly these people are the best of the best worth billions and companies engage in bidding wars for them all the time and no one bats an eye, but then you have a kid that could make money playing a sport because there is clearly money to be made, and they are forbade from doing so because everyone else has to get their cut first.
In your own example....even CEO's can't say no to money. Pay these kids and they will still take bribes and cash from other people. They can never have enough.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: eddiejones40 on September 28, 2017, 02:57:45 pm
People talk about how the school makes millions off these kids it's no different from any other job nobody gets paid what there worth. A corporation can make millions of dollars do you think the average worker gets paid what there worth I say no.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Kevin on September 28, 2017, 02:59:58 pm
amazing all the holier than thou people , have no problem throwing the value of a college degree right under the bus, to justify their position.

Since getting my degree, I have not had one job that did not require it.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 03:12:39 pm
Pffft. You sound bitter.

Scotty Thurman made more money before he completed his degree than most of the guys that got their degrees on that team.

You forgot the best perk though. Athletes get to keep your girl company while you were working at McDonalds because you had no talent to get a scholly with. I'll hang up and listen.

Bitter don't think so, and definitely not do to the reasons you insinuate; for one I didn't work a single day while in college (5 years), secondly I had an academic scholarship.
Good for ST, I'm happy for him. Now, let's talk about the guys that wasted their opportunity vs. the ones that took advantage of it. Which by the way is exactly what would of happened with any cash that they would have been paid if allowable (wasted it).
Noticeably missing from your response though, was any argument against what I had stated.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: farfromgroovins on September 28, 2017, 03:13:06 pm
Let them put their names in for the NBA draft and if they get selected, they gone. Then have a late late late signing period after the draft where schools can sign the ones that just missed out (they would have been recruiting them most likely anyway.) The schools have to demonstrate they have a scholly available for them. Risk is on the coaches to gamble and leave a scholly for some of those 3 stars that think they might get drafted. Didn't the Hogs lose out to Al Jefferson back in the day? That's part of the game. You want to recruit only 4-5 stars, you may end up with no stars.

There are only 2 rounds (60 picks) anyway so the amount of talent going out of HS will not dilute the college game. Being only 2 rounds, there won't be an abundance or rush of HS kids entering the draft because they know only the top recruits will get drafted. It removes the top recruits (the shoe contracts) from the picture. What shoe company wants to pay $100k for a HS kid that just missed out on the draft?
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 03:57:27 pm
Again, your argument is once they are in college. A lot of money trades hands before athletes even get into college. Heck half the coaches arrested, were arrested due to activities with 2018 recruits. Those guys aren't even there yet.

I realize that, but my thoughts are that I do not think the players will think it is worth the risk/reward to break the rules by accepting money before they get there when they know they are about to be set up with a nice payday once they are in college.  The risk being much higher to accept that money because if they set up the rules correctly, and have it to where they would have to forfeit their chance to play for money in college if they are caught taking bribes before they get there. 

Understand that there is never going to be a perfect way to handle this when you are talking about dealing with extremely valuable assets making decisions at a young age that affect the equity and value of where they go.  There are always going to be shady people around trying make their cut when this type of equity is changing hands, but all they can do is try to set it up where they do their best to eliminate as much of this as possible.  The current system is basically set up to where that kind of shady activity thrives.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 04:03:08 pm
I realize that, but my thoughts are that I do not think the players will think it is worth the risk/reward to break the rules by accepting money before they get there when they know they are about to be set up with a nice payday once they are in college.  The risk being much higher to accept that money because if they set up the rules correctly, and have it to where they would have to forfeit their chance to play for money in college if they are caught taking bribes before they get there. 

Understand that there is never going to be a perfect way to handle this when you are talking about dealing with extremely valuable assets making decisions at a young age that affect the equity and value of where they go.  There are always going to be shady people around trying make their cut when this type of equity is changing hands, but all they can do it try to set it up where they do their best to eliminate as much of this as possible.  The current system is basically set up to where that kind of shady activity thrives.

You realize that the players are taking the money now, knowing/hoping that they will hit the NBA lottery in a year or two w/o considering or caring about the consequences of getting caught. Paying them in college in excess of what they're already receiving, within the rules, won't stop "people" from breaking the rules to give/get a little extra on the side.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 04:06:48 pm
I realize that, but my thoughts are that I do not think the players will think it is worth the risk/reward to break the rules by accepting money before they get there when they know they are about to be set up with a nice payday once they are in college.
Problem solved because someone "thinks" it will work. Let's just disregard the fact that people continuously break rules no matter how much money they make. Heck even professional athletes can't stop from trying to break rules to gain more success and money.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 04:06:55 pm
You realize that the players are taking the money now, knowing/hoping that they will hit the NBA lottery in a year or two w/o considering or caring about the consequences of getting caught. Paying them in college in excess of what they're already receiving, within the rules, won't stop "people" from breaking the rules to give/get a little extra on the side.

Yes I obviously know that.  Then set it up to where they have to stay in college for 3-4 years, they will have to sign a contract if they accept money in college, so just make it a 3-4 year contract.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 04:12:52 pm
Problem solved because someone "thinks" it will work. Let's just disregard the fact that people continuously break rules no matter how much money they make. Heck even professional athletes can't stop from trying to break rules to gain more success and money.

That is not a very strong argument for you bud.  Yes people will always break rules no matter what, but are you honestly saying that the current system cannot be made better to where it makes a whole lot less sense to break the rules?

So I am curious, who do you think deserves all the 100s of millions of dollars made by the college athletes every year?  The school because they are all about giving back and going to put it in education and make it better?  Then where are all of our 100s of thousands of dollars for a kids tuition going to? They are stacking a kid up with debt till they are 40+ and now it is to the point where everyone and their mother has a degree (I do have one as well and am still paying off debt) so the actual value of getting said degree is not worth nearly as much. 
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 28, 2017, 04:17:26 pm
You realize that the players are taking the money now, knowing/hoping that they will hit the NBA lottery in a year or two w/o considering or caring about the consequences of getting caught. Paying them in college in excess of what they're already receiving, within the rules, won't stop "people" from breaking the rules to give/get a little extra on the side.

i don't think you understand what the big deal is with regards to the FBI investigation.

I will try and sum it up.

Asst. Coach types and others are in bed with Financial managers/business men, who are connected up with shoe company executive types.

The player is not the one starting this, but they are the ones being "bought".  Basically these people are looking for the patronage of a "can't miss" NBA prospect.  So that 5 star PG, ADIDAS wants him to sign with them after his 1 year in "college" is up so they float some cash to his Great Uncle through a manager of some kind communicating with an Assistant coach because they are watched "less" than a Head coach and paid less thus subject to being paid off themselves.

So 5 star PG gets 100 grand on the spot through channels set up to funnel it to him.  Goes to the college he was steared to that is affliated with the shoe company that had a part in getting him 100k richer are you following it now?

Basically these guys have set up a system of pay offs and kick backs to do nothing more than hire a basketball player to endorse their freaking product.

Why ? because there is money in it lots of it.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: BannerMountainMan on September 28, 2017, 04:19:56 pm
Stupidest idea ever for college players to get paid. THEY ARE GETTING EVERYTHING PAID FOR AND A CHANCE AT GETTING A GREAT JOB AFTER COLLEGE FOR FREE! Are u kidding me guys
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 04:26:35 pm
Personally, I think this would make the game better. The game would be more about team work than individual play.

Yah you're probably right.  I can agree with that.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: PLHawg on September 28, 2017, 04:35:27 pm
Oh yeah, how would paying college athletes mesh with Title IX?  Answer:  it wouldn't.  If the NCAA sets up a system to start paying big-time college athletes in the revenue sports (FB, Ball), it would be in direct violation of Title IX, and the resulting lawsuits would bog down the whole system for years.  Making college athletes officially professional athletes is a pipe dream.  Not gonna happen.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: HawgnCorona on September 28, 2017, 04:40:41 pm
then how about the NCAA doesn't make any money off the players?  just cut out all the millions of hard cash and just play the game for nothing or at cost.

That speaks to its business structure, right? As a not for profit the money  from the tournaments, etc supposedly is redistributed to Universities, other organizations. However, DONATIONS ( word play) are gladly accepted.

But the old saying goes,  "non speak louder than the guilty." Pitino is toast now and Emmert could next...

Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 04:48:28 pm
That is not a very strong argument for you bud.  Yes people will always break rules no matter what, but are you honestly saying that the current system cannot be made better to where it makes a whole lot less sense to break the rules?

So I am curious, who do you think deserves all the 100s of millions of dollars made by the college athletes every year?  The school because they are all about giving back and going to put it in education and make it better?  Then where are all of our 100s of thousands of dollars for a kids tuition going to? They are stacking a kid up with debt till they are 40+ and now it is to the point where everyone and their mother has a degree (I do have one as well and am still paying off debt) so the actual value of getting said degree is not worth nearly as much.
I personally think the money being shelled out is way too high. Will eventually collapse. But school deserves a lot of it. Like I said if you want to pay the kids, then pay them but don't give out scholarships. Let them pay to attend the school, room and board, food, and all of that. Also, have them pay income tax on that money that they have made.

The issue with the wage is you have to keep that flat and fair for all schools. So that's going to be the hard part.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 04:51:04 pm
I personally think the money being shelled out is way too high. Will eventually collapse. But school deserves a lot of it. Like I said if you want to pay the kids, then pay them but don't give out scholarships. Let them pay to attend the school, room and board, food, and all of that. Also, have them pay income tax on that money that they have made.

The issue with the wage is you have to keep that flat and fair for all schools. So that's going to be the hard part.

I agree with this, thanks for the debate.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 1highhog on September 28, 2017, 04:53:13 pm
All the talking heads are saying the issues we have with the black market for players will never be fixed until we start paying players.  How in the world could the NCAA ever regulate payments to players?  Wouldn't it still be an arms race to see who could offer players the most $, and even if it was regulated wouldn't there still be under the table "bonuses" for top players?  No way paying players could ever work in my opinion.

No, there will still be all types of corruption as you brought out because of the world we live in, there's going to be those that are going to break the rules and try to pay extra for the top players.  Nothing is going to work as long as there is greed.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: azhog10 on September 28, 2017, 04:53:19 pm
I agree with this, thanks for the debate.
Not to mention you cant pay men and not women. So you are having to pay all athletes. If you think the universities are making a lot of money now they won't be making enough to build new facilities for their athletes. It will get expensive real quick when you have to pay all athletes and there's no way around not paying all athletes the second you decide to start paying some. The courts have made that extremely clear with Title IX
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Hogs49ers on September 28, 2017, 04:55:13 pm
Not to mention you cant pay men and not women. So you are having to pay all athletes. If you think the universities are making a lot of money now they won't be making enough to build new facilities for their athletes. It will get expensive real quick when you have to pay all athletes and there's no way around not paying all athletes the second you decide to start paying some. The courts have made that extremely clear with Title IX

I agree, it would definitely be an issue and would be a difficult situation to navigate.  I for one respect Title IX, but would it not be fair to pay them all, but just based on how much revenue they bring in by sport?  I am not suggesting going down to the player level and say a QB is more valuable than a FB so the QB should get this much more.  This would not be easy and would most likely cause some problems, but they are paid in WNBA based on the value and revenue they bring in which is much less than a player would get in the NBA based on the value and equity they bring in.  Do not think this would be something that could not be worked around.

Been fun guys, but I actually should do a little bit of work while I am at work. ;)
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on September 28, 2017, 06:23:29 pm
amazing all the holier than thou people , have no problem throwing the value of a college degree right under the bus, to justify their position.

Since getting my degree, I have not had one job that did not require it.

Yes you have. Nearly all jobs accept in field experience in place of degrees. I know multiple people right now who are engineers at the companies they work for who do not have even an associates.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Sow Lancelot on September 28, 2017, 06:47:39 pm
Well then pay them what they are actually worth, $5,000 is not enough.  It may not completely solve the issue, but I definitely think it will help. 
Turning the NCAA schools into NBA-Lite. I'm pretty sure the NBA already seeks to pay a player what he is worth. Just get rid of the one-year rule.

So what if the talent of college basketball falls a bit?
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: sickboy on September 28, 2017, 07:27:30 pm
Lotta folks who don't understand basic business and economics up in here. Lordy.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 28, 2017, 09:45:45 pm
i don't think you understand what the big deal is with regards to the FBI investigation.

I will try and sum it up.

Asst. Coach types and others are in bed with Financial managers/business men, who are connected up with shoe company executive types.

The player is not the one starting this, but they are the ones being "bought".  Basically these people are looking for the patronage of a "can't miss" NBA prospect.  So that 5 star PG, ADIDAS wants him to sign with them after his 1 year in "college" is up so they float some cash to his Great Uncle through a manager of some kind communicating with an Assistant coach because they are watched "less" than a Head coach and paid less thus subject to being paid off themselves.

So 5 star PG gets 100 grand on the spot through channels set up to funnel it to him.  Goes to the college he was steared to that is affliated with the shoe company that had a part in getting him 100k richer are you following it now?

Basically these guys have set up a system of pay offs and kick backs to do nothing more than hire a basketball player to endorse their freaking product.

Why ? because there is money in it lots of it.

I'm not sure you understand, or possibly even read what I posted.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: husker71 on September 28, 2017, 10:17:26 pm
You guys act like this is something new. This argument has been going on for years.  The media and social outlets have changed as has the amount of money but the basic fact about players getting money has not changed.  Shoe companies have upped the ante to extreme levels.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: rzrbackramsfan on September 28, 2017, 10:54:12 pm
You guys act like this is something new. This argument has been going on for years.  The media and social outlets have changed as has the amount of money but the basic fact about players getting money has not changed.  Shoe companies have upped the ante to extreme levels.

I, and I think a lot of fans, suspected it to be true, but am just psyched that the perpetrators are finally being punished.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 08:57:33 am
I'm not sure you understand, or possibly even read what I posted.

i am pretty sure i do and did.
You are one of those people that still believes the 5 star prospect should be bowing down and kissing the feet of any school willing to give his poor self free college tuition.  And believe that the experience of being a big time college athlete is sooooooo fun and good that they should just shut up and let people make money off of them.

Fact is these systems to pay and lure players came first, 5 star athlete didn't say give me 100 grand someone approached them offering cash to sway him because they know 100k is a drop in the bucket of what that 5 star kid will bring to an institution or a shoe company.

My point is if they are not willing to give the kid a cut, stop charging to go see the games, stop paying coaches millions of dollars, shut the NCAA down and the 100's of millionaire "administrators" that inhabit that building.

All of them are siphoning money from the fact their "talent/labor" pool is drastically underpaid.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: LRHawg on September 29, 2017, 09:27:01 am
  The current system is basically set up to where that kind of shady activity thrives.

The NCAA are well aware of what they're doing and business is (was?) good.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 09:51:20 am
i am pretty sure i do and did.
You are one of those people that still believes the 5 star prospect should be bowing down and kissing the feet of any school willing to give his poor self free college tuition.  And believe that the experience of being a big time college athlete is sooooooo fun and good that they should just shut up and let people make money off of them.

Fact is these systems to pay and lure players came first, 5 star athlete didn't say give me 100 grand someone approached them offering cash to sway him because they know 100k is a drop in the bucket of what that 5 star kid will bring to an institution or a shoe company.

My point is if they are not willing to give the kid a cut, stop charging to go see the games, stop paying coaches millions of dollars, shut the NCAA down and the 100's of millionaire "administrators" that inhabit that building.

All of them are siphoning money from the fact their "talent/labor" pool is drastically underpaid.

No, actually, you didn't understand. What I said was, regardless of whether they are paid (in excess of what they already are) or not, there will always be those that up the anti (cheat) to get the better players. I made no reference what so ever as to whether the chicken or the egg came first.

I could care less as to whether a 5* bows down to a university or not, but I do wish that the universities would stop bowing down to them. I personally think that all students attending a university should be able to meet that schools academic entrance requirements; being the same requirements for athletes and non-athletes. If an athlete can't meet the basic ACT/SAT/GPA entrance requirements to XYZ University/College that the average student must, then the athlete can not gain admittance into XYZ University/College. There should be an alternative route (what ever that may be) for the athletes that have no business or interest in being on a university/college campus.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 10:00:17 am
No, actually, you didn't understand. What I said was, regardless of whether they are paid (in excess of what they already are) or not, there will always be those that up the anti (cheat) to get the better players. I made no reference what so ever as to whether the chicken or the egg came first.

I could care less as to whether a 5* bows down to a university or not, but I do wish that the universities would stop bowing down to them. I personally think that all students attending a university should be able to meet that schools academic entrance requirements; being the same requirements for athletes and non-athletes. If an athlete can't meet the basic ACT/SAT/GPA entrance requirements to XYZ University/College that the average student must, then the athlete can not gain admittance into XYZ University/College. There should be an alternative route (what ever that may be) for the athletes that have no business or interest in being on a university/college campus.


yes you are.  You are saying "why bother trying to pay these star athletes what they are worth? schools/people just going to cheat anyway".

It is a cop out.

You know we all know that people are making money hand over fist on the backs of people whom are the entire sport, with out basketball players there are no jersey's there are no games, there is no attendance etc. etc.  and they are tossed the bone of go to classes ? huh what  and don't forget all the mandatory work outs, practice, autograph signings, public appearances etc.

Then you come with the next "preach" moment basically saying that no star athlete can make the grades so the standards are lowered for them.  Of course they are for some of them because they are basketball players that is what they are, the schools are bending over backwards because they want that long green and they want that cheap as hell labor for the machine.

it is dishonesty all around, but only a few are benefiting from it sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 10:29:39 am
yes you are.  You are saying "why bother trying to pay these star athletes what they are worth? schools/people just going to cheat anyway".

It is a cop out.

You know we all know that people are making money hand over fist on the backs of people whom are the entire sport, with out basketball players there are no jersey's there are no games, there is no attendance etc. etc.  and they are tossed the bone of go to classes ? huh what  and don't forget all the mandatory work outs, practice, autograph signings, public appearances etc.

Then you come with the next "preach" moment basically saying that no star athlete can make the grades so the standards are lowered for them.  Of course they are for some of them because they are basketball players that is what they are, the schools are bending over backwards because they want that long green and they want that cheap as hell labor for the machine.

it is dishonesty all around, but only a few are benefiting from it sounds familiar.

No dishonesty at all, I'd just assume that the entire NCAA go the Div III route, no schollies for athletics. Like I said; for the athletes not interested in getting a college degree, they can take a different route to the pros. And,  I don't for a second assume that all 5*'s can't/don't qualify academically to gain entrance into a university, I'm just saying that if they don't that there should not be exceptions made for them; 5,4,3,2,1*'s all included regardless of sport or talent (band/music, etc.).

No where have I said or insinuated that athletes should bow to the universities offering them an opportunity. If they don't like the system, don't participate in it.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: PLHawg on September 29, 2017, 10:32:12 am
How are most schools going to afford paying ALL their athletes, in addition to providing them scholarships? Most schools athletic departments already operate in the red, without having to add 20 million in players salaries to the mix.   In addition, would we have to institute a salary cap like in pro sports?  I can see Kentucky, Kansas, etc paying their bball players like $3 mil per year - hell, rookies in the NBA would be taking a paycut!  Don't think the huge disparity in pay for men athletes in football and basketball compared to women athletes isn't going to violate Title IX in the most egregious manner possible?  We can all moan and whine about how college ball players are so mistreated because they're not being paid what they're worth, but I can guarantee you I will lose not one wink of sleep feeling sorry for them.  How dare they only be provided a full ride scholarship, room & board, meals, clothes, monthly stipend, etc.  Paying players would truly open up Pandora's box and would be the absolute most mind-boggling cluster#&%@ imaginable.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 10:53:19 am
No dishonesty at all, I'd just assume that the entire NCAA go the Div III route, no schollies for athletics. Like I said; for the athletes not interested in getting a college degree, they can take a different route to the pros. And,  I don't for a second assume that all 5*'s can't/don't qualify academically to gain entrance into a university, I'm just saying that if they don't that there should not be exceptions made for them; 5,4,3,2,1*'s all included regardless of sport or talent (band/music, etc.).

No where have I said or insinuated that athletes should bow to the universities offering them an opportunity. If they don't like the system, don't participate in it.


I just can't understand how people can only focus on this as if they are speaking from the athlete's point of view.

"if they dont like the system don't participate"

What part of Universities, bag men, shoe guys, AAU hawks beating down their doors with offers do you not understand?

THEY are the valuable resource, THEY are the oil well, the diamond, the bag of gold not the other way around.

The system likes them, it is the system that is broken.

The athlete has very little choice given how strong their position is in any "normal" supply and demand free market economy.

And the only choice they do have is where to go to school, what clothes to wear and there are 100 guys lining up to try and influence those choices for their benefit.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 10:54:52 am
How are most schools going to afford paying ALL their athletes, in addition to providing them scholarships? Most schools athletic departments already operate in the red, without having to add 20 million in players salaries to the mix.   In addition, would we have to institute a salary cap like in pro sports?  I can see Kentucky, Kansas, etc paying their bball players like $3 mil per year - hell, rookies in the NBA would be taking a paycut!  Don't think the huge disparity in pay for men athletes in football and basketball compared to women athletes isn't going to violate Title IX in the most egregious manner possible?  We can all moan and whine about how college ball players are so mistreated because they're not being paid what they're worth, but I can guarantee you I will lose not one wink of sleep feeling sorry for them.  How dare they only be provided a full ride scholarship, room & board, meals, clothes, monthly stipend, etc.  Paying players would truly open up Pandora's box and would be the absolute most mind-boggling cluster#&%@ imaginable.

so you like this welfare type set up right?

how do you feel about universal health care?
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 10:57:15 am
How are most schools going to afford paying ALL their athletes, in addition to providing them scholarships? Most schools athletic departments already operate in the red, without having to add 20 million in players salaries to the mix.   In addition, would we have to institute a salary cap like in pro sports?  I can see Kentucky, Kansas, etc paying their bball players like $3 mil per year - hell, rookies in the NBA would be taking a paycut!  Don't think the huge disparity in pay for men athletes in football and basketball compared to women athletes isn't going to violate Title IX in the most egregious manner possible?  We can all moan and whine about how college ball players are so mistreated because they're not being paid what they're worth, but I can guarantee you I will lose not one wink of sleep feeling sorry for them.  How dare they only be provided a full ride scholarship, room & board, meals, clothes, monthly stipend, etc.  Paying players would truly open up Pandora's box and would be the absolute most mind-boggling cluster#&%@ imaginable.

I think each school is allocated the same % of NCAA gross revenues (including all NCAA licensed apparel), with which they can allocate to each athlete how they see fit, but ALL athletes must receive some sort of minimum. There would be no maximum "payroll", as long as each athlete received the minimum and as long as the "payroll" does not exceed the allocation. Athletes in return pay for tuition/room/food/tutors/taxes/etc out of their cut. They can use any other academic scholarships/grants/etc to offset their out of pocket costs like any other non-athlete student. University revenues from ticket sales and donations would be used for coaches salaries and facilities upkeep.
Obviously it wouldn't be this simple, but some sort of plan with this basic setup.
Things that would have to be ironed out for example, would be how to set the minimum or uniform academic requirements for scholarships/grants/etc.

Either way, status quo or a new plan, the system would still be ripe for corruption.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 10:59:28 am
so you like this welfare type set up right?

how do you feel about universal health care?

So you're saying welfare is inadequate, that somehow the recipients of welfare are not being paid what they are worth?
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 11:21:05 am
So you're saying welfare is inadequate, that somehow the recipients of welfare are not being paid what they are worth?

I am saying that it is welfare to take the millions that are earned based in large part due to star player X, and distribute them to pay for other sports that cannot sustain themselves on their own.

So it is ok for Player X that everyone knows is a star to toil in class making nothing for how ever many years while the school and everyone else rakes in the dollars and pays for all manner of things that have nothing to do with Player X, because eventually Player X will be able to reap some of that monetary benefit himself "once he is old enough".

It is ridiculous
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Inhogswetrust on September 29, 2017, 11:36:00 am
When you start paying players Moreso than what they get now then that will not stop unscrupulous boosters from still giving them more and especially won't atop from giving them money while recruiting them before they sign and start playing.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 11:37:20 am
I am saying that it is welfare to take the millions that are earned based in large part due to star player X, and distribute them to pay for other sports that cannot sustain themselves on their own.

So it is ok for Player X that everyone knows is a star to toil in class making nothing for how ever many years while the school and everyone else rakes in the dollars and pays for all manner of things that have nothing to do with Player X, because eventually Player X will be able to reap some of that monetary benefit himself "once he is old enough".

It is ridiculous

For some reason you're not acknowledging that it is a CHOICE that player X is free to make or not make. It's the same choice that every other college student makes; is college worth the sacrifice in order to POTENTIALLY increase my future earnings. In your opinion the college is using player x for financial gains, BUT player x is also using the college for exposure/training/etc in hopes of future financial gains.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 11:53:48 am
For some reason you're not acknowledging that it is a CHOICE that player X is free to make or not make. It's the same choice that every other college student makes; is college worth the sacrifice in order to POTENTIALLY increase my future earnings. In your opinion the college is using player x for financial gains, BUT player x is also using the college for exposure/training/etc in hopes of future financial gains.

These players got $100,000 before they even stepped foot on a campus and they need the college for what again?

Everyone of these players could make millions overseas but they don't want to, they want to stay here and be allowed to do what is "normally" done.  The only difference is the game has changed and the absurd amounts of cash that is being generated from them without them having any say or stake in it is at insanity levels.

At some point watch the thing crumble inequality of this measure cannot go on forever.

Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on September 29, 2017, 12:10:42 pm
These players got $100,000 before they even stepped foot on a campus and they need the college for what again?

Everyone of these players could make millions overseas but they don't want to, they want to stay here and be allowed to do what is "normally" done.  The only difference is the game has changed and the absurd amounts of cash that is being generated from them without them having any say or stake in it is at insanity levels.

At some point watch the thing crumble inequality of this measure cannot go on forever.



If they don't need the college, then why are they going?
Everybody makes choices; can I make more money in a different city than where I currently live (yes), do I want to move in order to do that (no). See how that works? According to you, because I am smart (hypothetically) and want to be a doctor, I should already be paid like I am a doctor since I'll obviously be one someday (again hypothetically).
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: 311Hog on September 29, 2017, 01:00:11 pm
If they don't need the college, then why are they going?
Everybody makes choices; can I make more money in a different city than where I currently live (yes), do I want to move in order to do that (no). See how that works? According to you, because I am smart (hypothetically) and want to be a doctor, I should already be paid like I am a doctor since I'll obviously be one someday (again hypothetically).

Umm because what else are they going to do?  you said these kids NEEDED colleges to give them exposure and to teach them how to play etc. etc.  Fact is they don't High school kids are on TV playing ball.  The powers that be know who kids are years before they even get to college.  Do kids make a name for themselves in college ? absolutely but it isn't as necessary as it once was.

they can't go to the NBA where their talent belongs
they could go overseas, but as we all know this is becoming more common but still weird thing for a kid to do especially if they have never left home
or do the college thing and hope you do not get hurt
or as is obvious by this conversation take some of that $$ under/around the table and make choices that might come back to bite you.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: STLhawg on September 29, 2017, 01:17:03 pm
Paying players still means they all get the same $ or there will be some kind of limits -- so that will NOT stop someone from offering additional $ to attend a certain school.  Not sure why some people cannot fathom that!  What needs to change is kids need to be allowed to go directly to the NBA.  If that change is made and a kid decides to go to college to play basketball then he should be ineligible for the NBA draft for two years from the time he signs his LOI.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: hogfan10 on October 01, 2017, 05:44:40 pm
Umm because what else are they going to do?  you said these kids NEEDED colleges to give them exposure and to teach them how to play etc. etc.  Fact is they don't High school kids are on TV playing ball.  The powers that be know who kids are years before they even get to college.  Do kids make a name for themselves in college ? absolutely but it isn't as necessary as it once was.

they can't go to the NBA where their talent belongs
they could go overseas, but as we all know this is becoming more common but still weird thing for a kid to do especially if they have never left home
or do the college thing and hope you do not get hurt
or as is obvious by this conversation take some of that $$ under/around the table and make choices that might come back to bite you.

Your argument is with the NBA. It's their rule to require an age limit/waiting period. That rule only affects a handful of athletes, and most years not even that.
If they don't want to go to college and "suffer", they can chose something else. What that is, I don't know; nor do I care.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: GuvHog on October 01, 2017, 09:18:42 pm
Well then pay them what they are actually worth, $5,000 is not enough.  It may not completely solve the issue, but I definitely think it will help. 

Read this from Jay Bilas, it really made sense to me:

"When have you ever heard of a coach being steered to an agent? When have you ever heard of bribes to get a coach to accept a job? When have you ever heard of a bribe to get an athletic director to switch schools? You don't hear such things because those people are allowed to be paid in a free market. It is an aboveboard business, and it works in an orderly fashion. There are contracts with contract remedies. That pesky free market works incredibly well and efficiently for everyone else; it is foolish to assert that it would not work just as well for college athletes. After all, these schools know exactly whom to recruit and whom to play the most minutes in the games. They know whom to pay and how much."

Jay is wrong. No matter how much the colleges pay the players, the bribes will still continue. Paying the players won't slow it down the least bit.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on October 01, 2017, 10:04:41 pm
Scholarships aren't free. There is a literal exchange of money to pay for each scholarship. That money is brought in by football and basketball only.

Basically, football and basketball players earn the money that is then used to pay for their educations. The rest of the athletes at the school are the people being given a freebie.

I don't see anything wrong with an athletic scholarship being worth more than the the cost of room/board, books and tuition. Schools already give scholarships exactly like that to other students right now. Those can be used for transportation, health care, travel, etc

Most of these guys also qualify for government grants so these athletes can keep that as spending money.

I also don't understand why athletics can't be considered a form of work study. Again there are students being paid by schools right now in cash payments that may be spent on anything they choose. They are paid by the hour at varying rates above minimum wage. Why not athletes as well?
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: k.c.hawg on October 02, 2017, 08:13:33 am
Please let the NBA expand the G league and take on all of the guys that don't think college pays enough for their talent. Let them go to Sioux Falls and ride a bus to go play in front of 400. It can be just like the minor leagues in baseball....the really talented can get several million to sign and have a quick ascent to the NBA, players that think they will be superstars can make $25 to $30k for how many ever years they can take the grind. They can stay at Motel 6, eat Church's Chicken and be professional ball players.

No more nightly exposure on national tv, no more playing in front of packed houses, no more charter jets, no more Hyatt Regency's, no more 5 star dining, no more $40m training facility, no more "grind" of being an abused student athlete. Please let college basketball get back to being guys that feel they are having the greatest time of their life playing college basketball, getting a free education, traveling first class, living a life of luxury. The truth is 90% of college basketball players at power 5 schools will never live, travel, eat as well as they do while in college playing basketball, at any other point in their life. Just give me the guys that are willing to take that deal and let the pros go be pros like they do in low A ball. If the actual game with these players can support such "enormous profits" without having the schools names, the schools facilities, the schools boosters.........let the G league fill up the television contracts, let the G league pack the arenas, let the G league be March Madness.

I'm sick of all the prima dona ####, sick of guys that don't value the education, the college experience, that don't understand they are auditioning in the very best situation they could ever be in whether it be for a basketball career or a job. The game sucks compared to 25 years ago and keeps getting worse. Give me 12 guys that love wearing a jersey that has Razorbacks on it and I will adjust to the talent level and enjoy watching good team basketball no matter what the level.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Kevin on October 02, 2017, 09:22:22 am
Please let the NBA expand the G league and take on all of the guys that don't think college pays enough for their talent. Let them go to Sioux Falls and ride a bus to go play in front of 400. It can be just like the minor leagues in baseball....the really talented can get several million to sign and have a quick ascent to the NBA, players that think they will be superstars can make $25 to $30k for how many ever years they can take the grind. They can stay at Motel 6, eat Church's Chicken and be professional ball players.

No more nightly exposure on national tv, no more playing in front of packed houses, no more charter jets, no more Hyatt Regency's, no more 5 star dining, no more $40m training facility, no more "grind" of being an abused student athlete. Please let college basketball get back to being guys that feel they are having the greatest time of their life playing college basketball, getting a free education, traveling first class, living a life of luxury. The truth is 90% of college basketball players at power 5 schools will never live, travel, eat as well as they do while in college playing basketball at any other point in their life. Just give me the guys that are willing to take that deal and let the pros go be pros like they do in low A ball. If the actual game with these players can support such "enormous profits" without having the schools names, the schools facilities, the schools boosters.........let the G league fill up the television contracts, let the G league pack the arenas, let the G league be March Madness.

I'm sick of all the prima dona ####, sick of guys that don't value the education, the college experience, that don't understand they are auditioning in the very best situation they could ever be in whether it be for a basketball career or a job. The game sucks compared to 25 years ago and keeps getting worse. Give me 12 guys that love wearing a jersey that has Razorbacks on it and I will adjust to the talent level and enjoy watching good team basketball no matter what the level.

great post
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on October 02, 2017, 11:39:18 am
Please let the NBA expand the G league and take on all of the guys that don't think college pays enough for their talent. Let them go to Sioux Falls and ride a bus to go play in front of 400. It can be just like the minor leagues in baseball....the really talented can get several million to sign and have a quick ascent to the NBA, players that think they will be superstars can make $25 to $30k for how many ever years they can take the grind. They can stay at Motel 6, eat Church's Chicken and be professional ball players.

No more nightly exposure on national tv, no more playing in front of packed houses, no more charter jets, no more Hyatt Regency's, no more 5 star dining, no more $40m training facility, no more "grind" of being an abused student athlete. Please let college basketball get back to being guys that feel they are having the greatest time of their life playing college basketball, getting a free education, traveling first class, living a life of luxury. The truth is 90% of college basketball players at power 5 schools will never live, travel, eat as well as they do while in college playing basketball, at any other point in their life. Just give me the guys that are willing to take that deal and let the pros go be pros like they do in low A ball. If the actual game with these players can support such "enormous profits" without having the schools names, the schools facilities, the schools boosters.........let the G league fill up the television contracts, let the G league pack the arenas, let the G league be March Madness.

I'm sick of all the prima dona ####, sick of guys that don't value the education, the college experience, that don't understand they are auditioning in the very best situation they could ever be in whether it be for a basketball career or a job. The game sucks compared to 25 years ago and keeps getting worse. Give me 12 guys that love wearing a jersey that has Razorbacks on it and I will adjust to the talent level and enjoy watching good team basketball no matter what the level.

Lol

Jealousy is a terrible thing. For you to be correct in your diatribe there would have to be no demand for the product these guys talents deliver. Just because you don't have that talent and never will doesn't justify you being so bitter and caling for the mistreatment of those who do.

The very fact that you care enough to come here and follow them while raving like a lunatic says there is some sort of demand for their talents or tens of millions in profits couldn't be raised around them. I don't care if they get paid or not but at least try to bring some rational thought to the discussion instead of hysterical emotion please.

Most of you just sound like ugly girls who are jealous of the pretty girls.

Truth is that NCAA basketball can be argued to be the second best league in the world in terms of talent and competition but you ugly girls try to equate it to Developmental A ball minor league baseball.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: PLHawg on October 02, 2017, 12:26:26 pm
Please let the NBA expand the G league and take on all of the guys that don't think college pays enough for their talent. Let them go to Sioux Falls and ride a bus to go play in front of 400. It can be just like the minor leagues in baseball....the really talented can get several million to sign and have a quick ascent to the NBA, players that think they will be superstars can make $25 to $30k for how many ever years they can take the grind. They can stay at Motel 6, eat Church's Chicken and be professional ball players.

No more nightly exposure on national tv, no more playing in front of packed houses, no more charter jets, no more Hyatt Regency's, no more 5 star dining, no more $40m training facility, no more "grind" of being an abused student athlete. Please let college basketball get back to being guys that feel they are having the greatest time of their life playing college basketball, getting a free education, traveling first class, living a life of luxury. The truth is 90% of college basketball players at power 5 schools will never live, travel, eat as well as they do while in college playing basketball, at any other point in their life. Just give me the guys that are willing to take that deal and let the pros go be pros like they do in low A ball. If the actual game with these players can support such "enormous profits" without having the schools names, the schools facilities, the schools boosters.........let the G league fill up the television contracts, let the G league pack the arenas, let the G league be March Madness.

I'm sick of all the prima dona ####, sick of guys that don't value the education, the college experience, that don't understand they are auditioning in the very best situation they could ever be in whether it be for a basketball career or a job. The game sucks compared to 25 years ago and keeps getting worse. Give me 12 guys that love wearing a jersey that has Razorbacks on it and I will adjust to the talent level and enjoy watching good team basketball no matter what the level.


In a nutshell, couldn't have said it better.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: k.c.hawg on October 02, 2017, 12:41:40 pm
Lol

Jealousy is a terrible thing. For you to be correct in your diatribe there would have to be no demand for the product these guys talents deliver. Just because you don't have that talent and never will doesn't justify you being so bitter and caling for the mistreatment of those who do.

The very fact that you care enough to come here and follow them while raving like a lunatic says there is some sort of demand for their talents or tens of millions in profits couldn't be raised around them. I don't care if they get paid or not but at least try to bring some rational thought to the discussion instead of hysterical emotion please.

Most of you just sound like ugly girls who are jealous of the pretty girls.

Truth is that NCAA basketball can be argued to be the second best league in the world in terms of talent and competition but you ugly girls try to equate it to Developmental A ball minor league baseball.

WTH are you talking about. If their talents drove the economics of the sport the f'ng NBA would have 3 layers of G league making the money. No one turns out to see G league teams that could kick any NCAA finalist ass.....because there is no passion by the fans!! Certainly the CBA would be a league rivaling the NBA to hear you tell it. School loyalty is what drives the economics. You see 10,000 people packed in an arena to see a #63 seed get announced for the tournament and you think the talent drives this game. You hope your college team is good but I have since listened and watched since 1972.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: k.c.hawg on October 02, 2017, 12:56:07 pm
And just so you know, I've been a 23 year NFL season ticket holder, attend 40 + MLB games per year. Very happy those guys make the money they make. It is called professional sports. College sports are considered amature sports. If the players don't like the deal in college go play in China. Hopefully the NBA stops using the NCAA and does away with one and done.....if you want to be pissed off about the economics of sports, backlash NBA owners for refusing to pay guys that are good enough to play in the league.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: Inhogswetrust on October 02, 2017, 01:06:00 pm
Stupidest idea ever for college players to get paid. THEY ARE GETTING EVERYTHING PAID FOR AND A CHANCE AT GETTING A GREAT JOB AFTER COLLEGE FOR FREE! Are u kidding me guys

Not exactly free since they work/train/practice/watch film/sit in meetings, etc. long hours for playing a sport.
Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: ShadowHawg on October 02, 2017, 01:44:19 pm
WTH are you talking about. If their talents drove the economics of the sport the f'ng NBA would have 3 layers of G league making the money. No one turns out to see G league teams that could kick any NCAA finalist ass.....because there is no passion by the fans!! Certainly the CBA would be a league rivaling the NBA to hear you tell it. School loyalty is what drives the economics. You see 10,000 people packed in an arena to see a #63 seed get announced for the tournament and you think the talent drives this game. You hope your college team is good but I have since listened and watched since 1972.

The highest number of future NBA players will be playing NCAA Div 1 this season. That's what I am talking about.

What are you talking about? School loyalty? I haven't noticed school loyalty at play in women's sports, track and field, golf, etc. If school loyalty were as valuable as you say it would be self evident in these other sports but these sports actually lose money much less profit the school tens of millions. School loyalty is not looking too valuable.

G league teams aren't very good either. You ever watch a game? The quality of play sucks because it's about player development above actual team level development in terms of winning. Again the NCAA will have more future pros than the G league. Your talent claim is bogus. Kentucky and Kansas combined have more high end NBA talent on their rosters than the entire g league combined. Your talent claim just isn't holding up.

There are now tons of pro leagues around the world paying decent money for ex NCAA players.

Also, since you believe NCAA basketball is an ameteur sport in the classic sense today same as 1972, please name the other amateur sports organizations not named college football whose members profit tens of millions of dollars each season.

Title: Re: Paying Players
Post by: discombobulationist on October 02, 2017, 07:01:31 pm
Please let the NBA expand the G league and take on all of the guys that don't think college pays enough for their talent. Let them go to Sioux Falls and ride a bus to go play in front of 400. It can be just like the minor leagues in baseball.....

I'm sick of all the prima dona ####, sick of guys that don't value the education, the college experience, that don't understand they are auditioning in the very best situation they could ever be in whether it be for a basketball career or a job. The game sucks compared to 25 years ago and keeps getting worse. Give me 12 guys that love wearing a jersey that has Razorbacks on it and I will adjust to the talent level and enjoy watching good team basketball no matter what the level.

Nailed it. The "pros" need to go pro. Everybody wins.