Hogville

RB Sports Discussion => Monday Morning Quarterback => Topic started by: What's Shakin' Macon on September 16, 2017, 01:08:01 am

Title: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: What's Shakin' Macon on September 16, 2017, 01:08:01 am
Bad evals? Bad coaching? Bad luck? All 3?

Boiler plate BB blaming will accomplish nothing in this thread, I'm truly wondering what has led to these problems.

Pittman leaving may have contributed, and perhaps Anderson needs to go. Also, bad luck in that a guy like Brian Wallace can't crack this starting lineup, despite being an army all american?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: b501 on September 16, 2017, 01:27:39 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: radar on September 16, 2017, 02:18:49 am
When I hear our coaches say that the defensive front was doing something they hadn't seen before, and were unable to adjust to, makes it pretty clear where the problem is.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: presidenthog on September 16, 2017, 02:24:37 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

It's a mixture of this and poor recruiting.

He cares more about guys being 5 min early to meetings and thier GPA than he does talent.

He is HDN, but instead of his favorites being the most talented guys, it's the guys who have his favorite personality and highest GPA.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Qadi999 on September 16, 2017, 05:19:22 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Dominicanhog on September 16, 2017, 06:57:25 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.

I agree about offensive philosophy changing... from Road graders to more mobility,,, wouldn't doubt before this year is over, we change again due to lack of production... lets hope not
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: doc53 on September 18, 2017, 12:42:32 am
less talent and a lack of coaching ability.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: ShadowHawg on September 18, 2017, 06:44:24 am
It is CBB and his love of underdogs.

We can let Froholdt and Clary get whipped without threat of losing starter status because they need to learn the position but we won't do that for any of the three four star rated linemen on the bench.

That's why the line play is bad.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: The_Iceman on September 18, 2017, 06:49:40 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Been10Hog on September 18, 2017, 06:58:52 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
I really think the coaches do not have an agenda to play favorites. They are playing the players who win the job in practice. I hate it that we signed players ranked as high as Merrick and Wallace and then they don't pan out! But, we are going to play the best. I was a walkon in 80s for coach Hatfield. We signed the #1 center in country out of Texas. He mauled his high school opponents. When he got on campus he was big, but weak. I could bench press more than him as a 170# DB. You don't always get what is advertised by 5* and 4* rankings. I wish Wallace and Merrick would get a fire in their belly and take a position away!!
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Rudy Baylor on September 18, 2017, 09:43:49 am
I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Junkyard Hog on September 18, 2017, 10:03:56 am
I can't believe we're having as many OL issues as we do.

When Petrino was here, I never worried about qbs.

I thought when Beliema got here I'd never have to worry about the OL.  I was wrong.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GoHogs1091 on September 18, 2017, 10:15:31 am
Several things.

Bielema has yet to get the Left Tackle position figured out since he has been here.  Surprising since Bielema is regarded as being an OL "guru."

The Left Guard, Froholdt, is just in his 2nd season of playing the position.  While he has become better, he is still relatively inexperienced playing the position.  Experience matters for an Offensive Lineman.

Gibson, is being played out of position.  He is a Guard, not a Tackle.  Playing Gibson at Right Guard should be a basic fundamental decision by the Head Coach, but I presume it is a decision that is too difficult for Bielema to get correct.

Kurt Anderson is regarded as a technician teacher.  Anderson probably has saturated them with technique principles to the point that they are simply thinking too much in order to try to get technique correct.  Pittman just taught them to be physical, and to push the defensive players down the field.  Physicality a lot of times is more important than technique.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hoglady on September 18, 2017, 10:16:10 am
I can't imagine they wouldn't play the best players.
I also can't imagine the 4* OL recruits sitting the bench aren't better than a freshman walkon.
It's just a strange situation.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Razorback de Nosferatu on September 18, 2017, 10:16:30 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.

I'm appreciative of Enos coming in here and improving both Brandon Allen and the passing game generally. 

But it's true that Arkansas has lost that tough, physical mentality they had during the Pittman/Chaney years.  It's fine to be a pass-first team when you've got the tools for that--Hatcher and Morgan bailed them out of a lot of tough situations last year.

Now, though, they're gone, and the majority of our offensive talent seems to be in the running game.

I was really hoping we could Lubbock (verb) TCU, and moving forward, get back to a run-first mentality that plays to the team's strength.  But the offense just has no identity right now.  Arkansas became a pass-first operation last year.  And with huge turnover in the receiving corp., now what?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Piggfoot on September 18, 2017, 10:27:12 am
Recruiting.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: KlubhouseKonnected on September 18, 2017, 10:32:15 am
Who was it that quoted a retired college coach as Atari g our offensive line tries to do too much "NFL crap" that the majority of college players are not going to be able to do.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: ThisTeetsTaken on September 18, 2017, 10:33:22 am
Pittman left.   Hasn't been replaced. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Atlhogfan1 on September 18, 2017, 10:35:25 am
Numbers in recruiting.  Development. 

Oline is probably the hardest position to evaluate in recruiting.  When you try and have a sophisticated blocking scheme which requires both firing off the ball in run blocking and then finesse backing up pass blocking it takes time to develop those players. Limited practice time in college hinders it too. Said the same thing back when Petrino was here.   Tough to do in college.  Takes numbers, athletic talent, player intellect and time to develop.

Should have recruited more OL earlier but we did have an entire program to overhaul. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Atlhogfan1 on September 18, 2017, 10:36:43 am
Who was it that quoted a retired college coach as Atari g our offensive line tries to do too much "NFL crap" that the majority of college players are not going to be able to do.

And coaches have far less time to teach.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Little Lady Back on September 18, 2017, 10:43:25 am
I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it

Skipper caught some flack on here during his time on the hill, but I liked his mean play and what he brought to the team. He did however make some knucklehead mistakes sometimes, but we could use that grit and meanness he had on the line now.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: DeltaBoy on September 18, 2017, 11:06:30 am
Recruiting Failures and lack of fire .
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: OneTuskOverTheLine™ on September 18, 2017, 11:10:29 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

 If you mean position coach, I believe you may be right. Some kids may be buying in more than others...
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GunnerHawg70 on September 18, 2017, 11:15:27 am
I miss Big Dan the bar room brawler

he played nasty and I liked it
Yup...Big Skip brought a level of tenancious and nastiness that seems to be lacking with current OL...sure he got penalized and some were costly but you gotta love big guys that are just mean and ornery...
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: DoctorSusscrofa on September 18, 2017, 11:25:47 am
I can't imagine they wouldn't play the best players.
I also can't imagine the 4* OL recruits sitting the bench aren't better than a freshman walkon.
It's just a strange situation.

Coaches are probably not imagining.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on September 18, 2017, 11:25:51 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.

It's not the coaching, something is wrong with Merrick and Wallace but you can't seem to figure that out.

Wallace and Merrick were recruited as Road graders for CBB's run first offense he ran in 2014 but now that Enos wants O-linemen that are quicker and can pull for the passing game, they are like ducks out of water.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: 12247 on September 18, 2017, 11:45:55 am
If you know whats wrong with Merrick and Wallace, why don't you tell us.  And if you are in the know, why not tell us whats wrong with the 5th year senior QB, the huge bunch of WRs and nary a one that can do his job, the special teams that are pitiful at best, the D linemen that can be pushed around by TCU and some by FAM.  If its not coaching is the entire team smoking Mary Jane by the ton.  So far as I know our team and staff has the same NCAA rules as to practice time that all the other teams do, or maybe the NCAA has handicapped us on allotted time to practice and I am the only one who didn't get the message.  Hep us out here if you know.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: jgphillips3 on September 18, 2017, 11:50:23 am
It's not the coaching, something is wrong with Merrick and Wallace but you can't seem to figure that out.

Wallace and Merrick were recruited as Road graders for CBB's run first offense he ran in 2014 but now that Enos wants O-linemen that are quicker and can pull for the passing game, they are like ducks out of water.

That would be the simplistic, coach approved view.  It may even be the correct view.  However, we have an all-American center and the rest of the line continues to be either poor or average.  Is that talent (or lack thereof), talented players with the wrong skill set, players who aren't intelligent enough or coachable enough, bad work ethic, bad coaches, bad coaching by good coaches, bad system...who knows.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 11:54:07 am
Im wondering if some of it may be that some of the studs that Pittman recruited aren't buying in to Anderson's system or coaching.  Maybe they're still not happy about Pittman's departure. Could be a number of things.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 11:58:20 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
You may be on to something here.i hate to think it's true.but some of the decisions on who plays on this OL is Mindboggling.we have 5 or four star OL who can't get on the field. and we have a converted DL,a walk on,and a Blue shirt starting on this team.something is very wrong here.i can not explain it.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: jgphillips3 on September 18, 2017, 12:12:27 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

To be fair, HDN did just that so we do have recent history to suggest it.  If they have been playing favorites with less talented players, the heat currently on the staff will result in those more talented players hitting the field, sooner, rather than later.  If we lose to A&M looking anemic again, I suspect we will see several bench players at least get game time.  If the "more talented" players really just aren't that good, this lineup will stay the whole year.  So, either way, the playing favorites theory will either be confirmed or refuted soon enough.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 12:15:00 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.
It's called being stubborn. he feels he can win with the guys who do good in practice.but what if those guys are not getting it done under game pressure? the games are what counts.the nobody tells me who to play stuff is fine if that's what you want to say.but don't be shocked if being stubborn gets you fired. and do not act like a coach has never played favorites.it happens.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:15:22 pm
To be fair, HDN did just that so we do have recent history to suggest it.  If they have been playing favorites with less talented players, the heat currently on the staff will result in those more talented players hitting the field, sooner, rather than later.  If we lose to A&M looking anemic again, I suspect we will see several bench players at least get game time.  If the "more talented" players really just aren't that good, this lineup will stay the whole year.  So, either way, the playing favorites theory will either be confirmed or refuted soon enough.

So you're saying all these folks are suffering from battered women's syndrome?  Just because a moron like HDN would do that 20 years ago doesn't mean it's happening now. Peoplenlove using this excuse but it's almost always an idiotic claim to make.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on September 18, 2017, 12:19:48 pm
That would be the simplistic, coach approved view.  It may even be the correct view.  However, we have an all-American center and the rest of the line continues to be either poor or average.  Is that talent (or lack thereof), talented players with the wrong skill set, players who aren't intelligent enough or coachable enough, bad work ethic, bad coaches, bad coaching by good coaches, bad system...who knows.

It's the correct view. The Oline actually graded out well against TCU. 3 of the O-Linemen grade out at 90+.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 12:21:25 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Kevin on September 18, 2017, 12:21:30 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

I don't know about playing favorites, but froholdt played almost every meaningful snap last year, and he was awful at times.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on September 18, 2017, 12:24:27 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

I believe all of those had some playing time against TCU but they didn't start.

By the way, the starting O-Line is made up of 4 scholarship players and a Blue Shirt.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:33:09 pm
I don't know about playing favorites, but froholdt played almost every meaningful snap last year, and he was awful at times.

But still evidently better than the option behind him.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Kevin on September 18, 2017, 12:34:53 pm
But still evidently better than the option behind him.

I believe it was more of : we are going to play him no matter what, to get him experience, because they have gone all in on how good he could be.

Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 12:37:12 pm
I believe all of those had some playing time against TCU but they didn't start.

By the way, the starting O-Line is made up of 4 scholarship players and a Blue Shirt.

No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 12:47:03 pm
No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.

I believe there's a distinction that a blue shirt is guaranteed a scholarship and a walk on is not. I could be wrong about that.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 12:48:42 pm
I believe there's a distinction that a blue shirt is guaranteed a scholarship and a walk on is not. I could be wrong about that.

It's a distinction when discussing scholarship numbers and recruiting.  But during the season, if you're playing without a scholarship, you are a walk-on.  There's just not any wiggle room there.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 12:57:45 pm
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
+1000. we often disagree. but not on this.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Been10Hog on September 18, 2017, 01:03:19 pm
No such thing as a "blue shirt" except in recruiting discussion.  If you're on the team and not on scholarship, you are a walk-on.  When you get a scholarship, you're no longer a walk-on.  It's pretty simple.
When you are the said walkon who was promised a scholarship and don't get one it is called the BULL-shirt
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Kevin on September 18, 2017, 01:04:00 pm
When you are the said walkon who was promised a scholarship and don't get one it is called the BULL-shirt

or you have been sabaned
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: woodrow hog call on September 18, 2017, 01:05:53 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

AWESOME, now get this list to the equipment guy so he can have the stars put on the back of their practice uniforms. That has to be where the problem is, the coaches can't tell the star ratings when they are watching them practice.

Once you get this done I'm sure they will get the depth chart corrected.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRyan on September 18, 2017, 01:09:22 pm
It's hilarious and sad that so many of you think these coaches would put their livelihoods on the line to "play favorites". They put the guys out there who do the best in practice. If you have an issue with that talk to Merrick and Wallace and see if they will improve their performance in practice. That's the only way they're going to see the field.

Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 01:13:36 pm
Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one. 

Actually, I have to agree with you on this one.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 01:17:15 pm
Cole Hedlund vs Adam McFain explain that one.

Hedlund was the better practice kicker.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 01:18:00 pm
Hedlund was the better practice kicker.

Not according to a lot of reports. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 01:26:11 pm
Not according to a lot of reports.

Which ones?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: redleg on September 18, 2017, 01:28:26 pm
Sam Pittman left.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 01:29:23 pm
Which ones?

Biddy and West both thought McFain looked better.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if CBB gave the scholarship player the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Bebop on September 18, 2017, 01:34:17 pm
AWESOME, now get this list to the equipment guy so he can have the stars put on the back of their practice uniforms. That has to be where the problem is, the coaches can't tell the star ratings when they are watching them practice.

Once you get this done I'm sure they will get the depth chart corrected.

Don't act like they weren't evaluated prior to being offered a scholarship. Sure, ratings can be off, but recruits  are  rated with certain indicators in mind, especially when coaches from other schools are evaluating  them.

It is one thing to overrate a recruit in a particular position and it is quite another to have several highly ranked recruits being outplayed by a walk-on. Either they weren't as good as we and other schools thought or something else is going on.

Either way, it goes back to coaching.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 01:34:36 pm
Biddy and West both thought McFain looked better.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if CBB gave the scholarship player the benefit of the doubt.
Lord knows a walk on over a scholarship player is unpopular these days! I don't put much faith in biddy or West. The way I remember it there wasn't any separation between them and Hedlund seemed to have the better ceiling. That and McFain ended up being the kick off guy, right?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogfanboy2 on September 18, 2017, 01:35:53 pm
It is the blocking scheme the CBB brought in.    I see so many times the OL first do a hand block or brush off block (finesse block) and then go after their primary blocking assignment, and too many times the brush block is the one making the tackle.  I think their view is you just need to give that first guy a little nudge and the RB will be past him by then and thus cannot make the tackle.  So they are asking the OL to do more than they should.   I’m sitting firmly in the armchair on this one, but it looks like to me in the zone read offenses  they have the OL  go after you primary assignment none of this finesse blocking and let the QB and RB  make the read. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 18, 2017, 01:36:56 pm
AWESOME, now get this list to the equipment guy so he can have the stars put on the back of their practice uniforms. That has to be where the problem is, the coaches can't tell the star ratings when they are watching them practice.

Once you get this done I'm sure they will get the depth chart corrected.
Stars matter no matter if we want to believe it or not. that OL they put out there against TCU was one of the worst i have seen at Arkansas.sorry but it was.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Kevin on September 18, 2017, 01:39:13 pm
Stars matter no matter if we want to believe it or not. that OL they put out there against TCU was one of the worst i have seen at Arkansas.sorry but it was.

preach
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: swinemaster on September 18, 2017, 01:43:35 pm
It's not the coaching, something is wrong with Merrick and Wallace but you can't seem to figure that out.

Wallace and Merrick were recruited as Road graders for CBB's run first offense he ran in 2014 but now that Enos wants O-linemen that are quicker and can pull for the passing game, they are like ducks out of water.

Wrong again Guv.  Wallace and Merrick were evaluated and recruited by about 30+ different programs.  They could have gone anywhere.  And most places would probably have them succeeding.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 01:48:24 pm
Lord knows a walk on over a scholarship player is unpopular these days! I don't put much faith in biddy or West. The way I remember it there wasn't any separation between them and Hedlund seemed to have the better ceiling. That and McFain ended up being the kick off guy, right?

I think that's right.  I really don't even care that much.  I just remember reading reports throughout camp that McFain looked better.  He got a lot more air under his kicks, whereas Cole hit those line drives.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Been10Hog on September 18, 2017, 01:52:38 pm
Rankings don't matter unless the high ranked high school guy can beat out everyone else at the position. The coaches will play the best players. Hatfield recruited the #1 center in the country out of Texas, Dwayne Spann. When he got to campus I could bench press more than him as a 170# walkon DB. See Otis Kirk comment on that

http://nep.247sports.com/Gallery/Arkansas-Razorback-Recruiting-Luke-Jones-Noah-Gatlin-Will-Burges-53075076/Replies
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRyan on September 18, 2017, 02:43:55 pm
Lord knows a walk on over a scholarship player is unpopular these days! I don't put much faith in biddy or West. The way I remember it there wasn't any separation between them and Hedlund seemed to have the better ceiling. That and McFain ended up being the kick off guy, right?

No, McFain beat him out two different times and they still went back to Hedlund and then McFain beat him out for a 3rd time.  From all reports McFain was always better than Hedlund in practice and scrimmages.  Hedlund made one FG in his career at Arkansas over 30 yards.  McFain made 11 of 30+.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 03:14:37 pm
No, McFain beat him out two different times and they still went back to Hedlund and then McFain beat him out for a 3rd time.  From all reports McFain was always better than Hedlund in practice and scrimmages.  Hedlund made one FG in his career at Arkansas over 30 yards.  McFain made 11 of 30+.

All reports huh? Except the ones that matter evidently.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: oldhog63 on September 18, 2017, 03:59:43 pm
I think the main issue is that we don't have a well defined philosophy and system. It changes with coordinators and position coaches. Thus, you see inconsistent play. And, since the line has to work as a unit, inconsistency is more amplified.

If we had a well defined system, then you could recruit and develop to that system. In year five we should have for the most part a stocked pipeline and starting upperclassmen who are comfortable with what they are doing. Instead we see constant changing of players and positions and the predictable results of that.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 04:01:57 pm
I think the main issue is that we don't have a well defined philosophy and system. It changes with coordinators and position coaches. Thus, you see inconsistent play. And, since the line has to work as a unit, inconsistency is more amplified.

If we had a well defined system, then you could recruit and develop to that system. In year five we should have for the most part a stocked pipeline and starting upperclassmen who are comfortable with what they are doing. Instead we see constant changing of players and positions and the predictable results of that.

Hard to disagree with that.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: rickfahr on September 18, 2017, 04:06:21 pm
Numbers in recruiting.  Development. 

Oline is probably the hardest position to evaluate in recruiting.  When you try and have a sophisticated blocking scheme which requires both firing off the ball in run blocking and then finesse backing up pass blocking it takes time to develop those players. Limited practice time in college hinders it too. Said the same thing back when Petrino was here.   Tough to do in college.  Takes numbers, athletic talent, player intellect and time to develop.

Should have recruited more OL earlier but we did have an entire program to overhaul.

As for shrinking practice time ... other people seem to have figured it out.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: zebradynasty on September 18, 2017, 04:13:53 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.

Someone need to explain this. I know stars don't mean much to some...but how did we miss on 5 players? Especially since we OL is suppose to our strongest focus.
Title: OL
Post by: hawgfan4life on September 18, 2017, 05:46:39 pm
I might be a conspiracy theorist with this question, but how many of Pittman's recruits are getting two deep versus walk-on and Anderson's recruits? Pretty suspicious that highly rated recruits can't beat out walk-on players.  I watched our RG get blown up too many plays to believe he was our best option.  OL stunk last year, has been unimpressive this year and Pittman's recruits are riding the pine.
Title: Re: OL
Post by: onebadrubi on September 18, 2017, 05:47:27 pm
It would take you less than 5 minutes to do your own research and answer your question that has probably 5 topics on this posted on the front page of MMQB. 
Title: Re: OL
Post by: Bacons Rebellion on September 18, 2017, 05:59:26 pm
I feel one thing we can all agree on is that the best way to evaluate college football upperclassmen is based on their performance in their junior year of high school, as judge by journalists at recruiting services. What they do on the field and in practice is really irrelevant. Their bodies don't really change enough to make a difference in a few years, and they all have the same drive and motivation level. All of them can understand concepts that are a lot more advanced than in high school. The only thing that keeps a highly rated recruit on the bench is favoritism from a coach. It's well proven and obvious.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: 247Hog on September 18, 2017, 06:08:24 pm
You guys are crazy....OL play is CBB strength remember?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 18, 2017, 06:11:08 pm
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result


This mostly.


I predict the team quits and you see a massive influx of underclassmen playing by mid season.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 18, 2017, 06:12:55 pm

Remember 4 starters returned from this OL.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: lakecityhog on September 18, 2017, 07:24:45 pm
So we "missed" on 5 different 4* players and got "lucky" with 2 walk-ons???

I keep hearing that the reason a couple of these 4* guys cannot see the field is that we recruited "road graders" and now the OC wants to change the system, right? Yet, when we get a first-and-goal situation we call plays that require those same "road grader" blockers, please explain that for me?

Who sets the recruiting parameters for the O'Line? Who calls the plays? Shouldn't those 2 guys talk a little and maybe work something out???

Guys, you can blame the players all you want to, but if the questions above don't make you go "hmmm" then I don't know what to tell you.

One last question--- Why do SO MANY of you always seem to preach that stars do matter except when it comes to our own O'Line?????
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hawgfan4life on September 18, 2017, 07:47:56 pm
It would take you less than 5 minutes to do your own research and answer your question that has probably 5 topics on this posted on the front page of MMQB. 
Rhetorical question, but it would take less than five minutes for 10 experts on here to post the answer.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: onebadrubi on September 18, 2017, 07:55:52 pm
Rhetorical question, but it would take less than five minutes for 10 experts on here to post the answer.

I think it's funny that you are the only one that has seen the RG get blown up. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Nosboar Accubond on September 18, 2017, 08:14:14 pm
The O line graded out pretty well against TCU... you should look directly to the QB and WRs for the reason we got drilled... and Enos bone headed coaching.

TCU stacked the box and dared us to beat them in the air. We couldn't beat 1-1 coverage, and they stuffed the run.

But please, keep worrying about the OL and Hedlund, which should be about numbers 4 & 5 of the "why this season will suck" list.

I'm done with CBB
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Big Daddy on September 18, 2017, 08:34:31 pm
Here are the list of 4 stars who can't get on the field for Arkansas.
Brian Wallace
Jalen Merrick
Zack Rodgers
Jake Heinrich
Jake Raulerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All beat out by blue shirts and Walk on's.
This is all you need to know. It's not a mystery. Can't evaluate, can't recruit, can't develop. Bad combination.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hawgfan4life on September 18, 2017, 09:09:29 pm
I think it's funny that you are the only one that has seen the RG get blown up. 

May be my interpretation of blown up.  Go to the red zone plays.  I can't tell you which one because I already deleted the game.  It was one of the times inside the five yard line.  We ran the ball and Clary got driven backward.  He stayed in the way of his man and his man didn't make the play.  However, it was a perfect indicator of his inability to physically push his man and move the LOS which we needed to do inside the five.  Instead, he was moved backward.  Go watch those series and you will see.  There were other plays he was getting physically beat, but he stayed in the way of his man and managed to not let his guy make the tackle or the sack.  That is awesome that he has that kind of heart and knows what to do.  However, that won't win the LOS battle and other DC's will see this and start bull rushing him.  His many might not make the sack, but Clary's backside getting driven deep into the pocket is going to impact stepping up into the pocket and what the QB does.  It will also impact the short yardage plays and goalline offense.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 09:30:54 pm
May be my interpretation of blown up.  Go to the red zone plays.  I can't tell you which one because I already deleted the game.  It was one of the times inside the five yard line.  We ran the ball and Clary got driven backward.  He stayed in the way of his man and his man didn't make the play.  However, it was a perfect indicator of his inability to physically push his man and move the LOS which we needed to do inside the five.  Instead, he was moved backward.  Go watch those series and you will see.  There were other plays he was getting physically beat, but he stayed in the way of his man and managed to not let his guy make the tackle or the sack.  That is awesome that he has that kind of heart and knows what to do.  However, that won't win the LOS battle and other DC's will see this and start bull rushing him.  His many might not make the sack, but Clary's backside getting driven deep into the pocket is going to impact stepping up into the pocket and what the QB does.  It will also impact the short yardage plays and goalline offense.
The games on YouTube. Condensed into a few minutes. Find us the plays.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Dominicanhog on September 18, 2017, 09:44:44 pm

Remember 4 starters returned from this OL.

Boy that was fun to watch.. AA looked a lot better there..that's for sure..
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: onebadrubi on September 18, 2017, 09:48:31 pm
Someone need to explain this. I know stars don't mean much to some...but how did we miss on 5 players? Especially since we OL is suppose to our strongest focus.

Rogers is playing behind what is considered to be one of if not the best center in college, so there is that.  Now you coudl question why does he not play guard, but I think that is playing with fire since he is your definite back up center shoudl an injury occur. 

Heinrich is MIA, no clue where he is.  I've asked on here and got nothing by goofy SA answers.  He was redshirted last year because of injury so who knows.

We saw Raulerson get blown up last year as a transfer. 

So you that leaves Wallace and Merrick, which all of this board would love to know what is going on, but as this point all we know is two less rated guys are playing over them. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 18, 2017, 09:48:54 pm
The games on YouTube. Condensed into a few minutes. Find us the plays.

You seriously offer nothing to an argument do you?

The same senseless banter of replies.

Guys give comprehensive arguments about the offensive line and kicker and your responses are, "Reports don't matter." and "Show me video."

You're borderline trolling with this non stop apologist crap.

Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: zebradynasty on September 18, 2017, 10:05:26 pm
The O line graded out pretty well against TCU... you should look directly to the QB and WRs for the reason we got drilled... and Enos bone headed coaching.

TCU stacked the box and dared us to beat them in the air. We couldn't beat 1-1 coverage, and they stuffed the run.

But please, keep worrying about the OL and Hedlund, which should be about numbers 4 & 5 of the "why this season will suck" list.

I'm done with CBB

I find that hard to believe. After the first series, we pretty much didn't get squat on the ground. When we did pass they put pressure on Allen. Maybe he held the ball a little longer than he should but TCU DL was beating our OL pretty easy.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on September 18, 2017, 10:17:46 pm
The O-line has been a cluster since Pittman left.
I was willing to attribute poor play last year to turnover of personnel, but now in Year 2 I'm looking at the coaching.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 10:32:59 pm
You seriously offer nothing to an argument do you?

The same senseless banter of replies.

Guys give comprehensive arguments about the offensive line and kicker and your responses are, "Reports don't matter." and "Show me video."

You're borderline trolling with this non stop apologist crap.

It's true. It's unfair of me to ask people to back up thwir claims with actual examples from the game. It's easy to say anything. I'm interested to see if Clary was blown off the ball as people claim. I've watched the game twice and didn't see it. I don't ask anyone to do anything I wouldn't. FCJ asked me to prove him wrong with video in the last few days. Guess what I did. Showed him the video and he admitted he was wrong.  That's how this works.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: RedRazorHog on September 19, 2017, 12:05:19 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result

I agree.   He doesn't play the best players, nor the best athletes.   There are some physically-easy-to-see differences in what our o-line guys look like and what you see when you look at Alabama, LSU, MSU, Georgia and Florida's lines and ours.... take a look, it's really easy to spot.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: factchecker on September 19, 2017, 04:00:02 am
I find that hard to believe. After the first series, we pretty much didn't get squat on the ground. When we did pass they put pressure on Allen. Maybe he held the ball a little longer than he should but TCU DL was beating our OL pretty easy.

You realize that we ran for 3 yards in the first series.  We ran better in the second series and also at the end of the 3rd quarter.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: factchecker on September 19, 2017, 04:03:04 am
Here is a gif I found of Clary blocking in the 3rd qtr.

Toss right to David Williams.

Clary chips the one technique (or shade - it's hard to tell from the angle) and works to the linebacker.

Cantrell and Clary get pancakes.

(https://j.gifs.com/g51xjj.gif)
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: buldozer on September 19, 2017, 04:46:27 am
It is hard to go out of state and get big time recruits. And when you do, you need them to pan out. Think about the effort it took to get Merrick and Wallace. There is no reason Ty Clary should be playing over them, or even the 3 freshmen that came in the Spring. Something is wrong with the coaching.
Ding Ding Ding! ^^^We have a winner!^^^
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: buldozer on September 19, 2017, 04:52:27 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
This is exactly correct. Many of the best players never see the field during games due to favoritism of others regardless of ability to play. This is why Keon Hatcher had to get injured before Drew Morgan ever got a chance to play.... if the hatcher injury never occurred, Drew Morgan would have sat on the bench right through his senior year never getting a chance to play. I have heard exactly the same is going on currently in the case of Will Gragg. He is not on the coach's favorites list and has rarely seen the field. In the last game I only seen him come in a couple times and made a good play when he got the chance.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: onebadrubi on September 19, 2017, 07:04:03 am
This is exactly correct. Many of the best players never see the field during games due to favoritism of others regardless of ability to play. This is why Keon Hatcher had to get injured before Drew Morgan ever got a chance to play.... if the hatcher injury never occurred, Drew Morgan would have sat on the bench right through his senior year never getting a chance to play. I have heard exactly the same is going on currently in the case of Will Gragg. He is not on the coach's favorites list and has rarely seen the field. In the last game I only seen him come in a couple times and made a good play when he got the chance.

Thank you for proving you don't know anything.  Gragg had a non football related injury and has not practiced up until the tcu game.  He's supposedly back full 100% after tcu game and fighting for reps. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 19, 2017, 07:39:14 am
This is exactly correct. Many of the best players never see the field during games due to favoritism of others regardless of ability to play. This is why Keon Hatcher had to get injured before Drew Morgan ever got a chance to play.... if the hatcher injury never occurred, Drew Morgan would have sat on the bench right through his senior year never getting a chance to play. I have heard exactly the same is going on currently in the case of Will Gragg. He is not on the coach's favorites list and has rarely seen the field. In the last game I only seen him come in a couple times and made a good play when he got the chance.
Yeah, Gragg has been hurt so....
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HoginMemphis on September 19, 2017, 07:55:48 am
Bad evals? Bad coaching? Bad luck? All 3?

Boiler plate BB blaming will accomplish nothing in this thread, I'm truly wondering what has led to these problems.

Pittman leaving may have contributed, and perhaps Anderson needs to go. Also, bad luck in that a guy like Brian Wallace can't crack this starting lineup, despite being an army all american?
Mostly a fall off in successfully recruiting (which means getting them to sign a scholie and attend) of O linemen over the last 2 or 3 recruiting classes. Bielema did better with signing 4 star O linemen his first two recruiting classes. Fans either do not understand or do not want to understand the high correlation between signing 4 and 5 star O linemen and having a great O line and signing 3 star and below O-linemen and having many problems in run blocking and pass protection.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: zebradynasty on September 19, 2017, 08:48:59 am
You realize that we ran for 3 yards in the first series.  We ran better in the second series and also at the end of the 3rd quarter.

Thank you for correcting me about the first series but my point is that I don't see how an OL graded out 80%+ with only 250 total yards of offense!
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 19, 2017, 08:51:07 am
Mostly a fall off in successfully recruiting (which means getting them to sign a scholia and attend) of O linemen over the last 2 or 3 recruiting classes. Bielema did better with signing 4 star O linemen his first two recruiting classes. Fans either do not understand or do not want to understand the high correlation between signing 4 and 5 star O linemen and having a great O line and signing 3 star and below O-linemen and having many problems in run blocking and pass protection.


Yes and no.


You need those type players for a NC quality line....you can have a decent line with less.


BB took a functioning line and moved it around to play new undersized players.....again.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 19, 2017, 08:53:23 am
Thank you for correcting me about the first series but my point is that I don't see how an OL graded out 80%+ with only 250 total yards of offense!
All grading means is a player hit his assignment....not a reflection of an OL as a unit.


You can have a play blown up in the back field and 5/6 linemen do their jobs.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 09:13:26 am
Not according to a lot of reports.
There's an entire thread talking about the worries over the kicking game---last summer.
Two people in the whole thread expressed concern about the kicker. TWO. The others trotted out the usual excuses 'he's been doing great in practice...yada yada'

Me, I had already moved on from Hedlund in 2015. I had seen enough game action to make me highly doubt he would ever be a good kicker in game action.
I have no doubts that he kicked well in practice, but he had a poor 2015 season. It's one thing to give a guy another shot in 2016, that's fair. But NOT again in 2017.
These guys are either stubborn or just dumb.

I'm going to find that thread again...
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: woodrow hog call on September 19, 2017, 09:41:44 am
All grading means is a player hit his assignment....not a reflection of an OL as a unit.


You can have a play blown up in the back field and 5/6 linemen do their jobs.


This is one of the things most don't get, or if they seven and all we have are the five O linemen with no back or TE, we don't get it blocked.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 19, 2017, 11:01:59 am
You hear guys like Trey Biddy.........who evaluates recruits and covers the Hogs for a living and gets inside looks at the team, questioning the roster decisions at multiple positions. Asking questions of why certain players are given every chance possible and then some and why other players seem to have a much shorter leash. Heck, Biddy called McFain the better kicker way before the start of the season and Hedlund was still trotted out there only to lose the job.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 12:18:17 pm
You hear guys like Trey Biddy.........who evaluates recruits and covers the Hogs for a living and gets inside looks at the team, questioning the roster decisions at multiple positions. Asking questions of why certain players are given every chance possible and then some and why other players seem to have a much shorter leash. Heck, Biddy called McFain the better kicker way before the start of the season and Hedlund was still trotted out there only to lose the job.
Yea, you read things in the paper from scrimmages like 'Hedlund was 5-5 in the scrimmage, from 48 yards, 43 yards, 36, etc etc'
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that information. I'm sure it's true.
I just know from watching real live game action that it's just not there, and lost confidence in him in 2015. The kicks have always been too low, and then you factor 'game lights', heavy rush, pressure, etc. It's just not there.
At some point the coaches' knowledge of what happens in games has to be weighed against what happens in practice, and one side will win. In this case, as I said, I don't blame the coach for giving him another chance as the 'starter' in 2016...but to trot out the same player in 2017 was an epic fail.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 19, 2017, 12:20:17 pm
Yea, you read things in the paper from scrimmages like 'Hedlund was 5-5 in the scrimmage, from 48 yards, 43 yards, 36, etc etc'
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that information. I'm sure it's true.
I just know from watching real live game action that it's just not there, and lost confidence in him in 2015. The kicks have always been too low, and then you factor 'game lights', heavy rush, pressure, etc. It's just not there.
At some point the coaches' knowledge of what happens in games has to be weighed against what happens in practice, and one side will win. In this case, as I said, I don't blame the coach for giving him another chance as the 'starter' in 2016...but to trot out the same player in 2017 was an epic fail.

Bingo
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 12:22:38 pm

This is one of the things most don't get, or if they seven and all we have are the five O linemen with no back or TE, we don't get it blocked.
One of those classic, technically true, but totally misleading things.
As said, if most of the line does their job on a play, but one guy whiffs, so the play breaks down. Yet most of the O-line would have graded perfectly on the play.

Or, a guy drowning in a river whose 'average' depth was three feet. We've all heard that one before.

Just to say you can use statistics to prove anything yet totally miss the point.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 19, 2017, 12:23:07 pm
Yea, you read things in the paper from scrimmages like 'Hedlund was 5-5 in the scrimmage, from 48 yards, 43 yards, 36, etc etc'
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that information. I'm sure it's true.
I just know from watching real live game action that it's just not there, and lost confidence in him in 2015. The kicks have always been too low, and then you factor 'game lights', heavy rush, pressure, etc. It's just not there.
At some point the coaches' knowledge of what happens in games has to be weighed against what happens in practice, and one side will win. In this case, as I said, I don't blame the coach for giving him another chance as the 'starter' in 2016...but to trot out the same player in 2017 was an epic fail.

He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: factchecker on September 19, 2017, 03:58:26 pm
Heck, Biddy called McFain the better kicker way before the start of the season and Hedlund was still trotted out there only to lose the job.

Biddy thought McFain was the better kicker this season?

That's weird because McFain isn't on the team.  He graduated last year.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: MemphisBossHog on September 19, 2017, 07:10:49 pm
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.
very interesting.  Had not heard this before.  It does make perfect sense.  Pittman's OLinemen were absolutely huge.  Under him, we had the largest OLine in ALL of football including the NFL, but time and time again we watched smaller, quicker defensive linemen and LBs simply go around them and meeting the ball carrier in the backfield in short yardage situations. 

It certainly makes sense that Enos's more balanced offensive system would need a different kind of lineman.  Now couple that with BB most likely vetoing some of the things Enos wants to do and still trying to be a smashmouth run it down the other guy's throat team and you probably get what we are getting now. 

Enos wants to be balanced, creative, maybe some dink and dunk passing plays that can loosen up the defense, but then BB hears it on the headset and just cant help himself and says no.  (we have seen evidence of this when BB was still at Wisky and his OC Matt Canada confronted him about meddling in the offensive game plan instead of letting him do his job)  So maybe we end of with the wrong kind of linemen for the system we want to run.  But then again what is the system we want to run?  If we are going to be a smashmouth team, then why hire Enos?  If he wants to take advantage of Enos's system, then get the right kind of OLinemen that can move laterally.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Nashville Fan on September 19, 2017, 07:23:30 pm
Good theory but I don't see a lot of road grading. I see a two man stunt to the outside left with the first defensive guy drawing a double team and the second guy curling back to the inside and thumping the QB. Over and over and over.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hawgfan4life on September 19, 2017, 07:24:20 pm
The games on YouTube. Condensed into a few minutes. Find us the plays.

Okay.  I don't know how to copy a single play, but go to the 2nd quarter at the 6:48 mark.  This is an example of him simply staying in the way and getting stood up.  Go to the 2nd quarter at the 3:48 mark and watch the play live and keep watching the slow motion isolation with commentary of him getting blown-up.  Go to the 1st and goal at the 3 with 56 sec remaining in the 3rd and watch the next two plays.  The first he is stood up and shoved inside and the second the DL slants inside and he doesn't wash him back an inch.  He goes inside with him and he gets buckled on a pile where the ball was going.

I have no problem with the kid.  He did far better than a true freshman should ever be expected to do, but it is bullcrap that he is being needed to play when we have older, stronger, more experienced players that have been in the system multiple years sitting on the bench.  That is not a reflection on the young player but a reflection on the coach that didn't get the stronger, experienced players ready to play or at least have a substitute package to get them in when it was needed to move the LOS.

Kid is good.  Did an admirable job!  SHOULDN'T be in the game when he isn't physically ready five years into a system, which he isn't physically ready the way he gets manhandled on some plays.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 11:05:42 pm
He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?
How many were over 30 yards?

Tell me a meaningful kick that he made from 2015-17. Either won a game...sealed a game...or was from any meaningful distance. Any of the above.

He lost me by having kicks blocked that would have potentially won the Ole Miss game and the 29-yarder from the Miss St game that year. Forget somebody not being blocked, the fact remains his kicks have always been too low. All of that was obvious in 2015.

I'm glad you had confidence in him, because I sure didn't. I think anyone would look at Arkansas's kicking situation and see some real limitations there. At least McFain last year, he wasn't deadly accurate, but I had confidence that it was NOT going to be blocked. And I had reasonable confidence he would make it. I never had any of that with Hedlund.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: factchecker on September 19, 2017, 11:15:41 pm
How many were over 30 yards?

He made a 38 yard field goal vs. TCU and Virginia Tech last season.

Hedlund made a 45 yard field goal vs. Ole Miss in 2015 - in hindsight that was pretty darn important.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 20, 2017, 12:23:27 am
How many were over 30 yards?

Tell me a meaningful kick that he made from 2015-17. Either won a game...sealed a game...or was from any meaningful distance. Any of the above.

He lost me by having kicks blocked that would have potentially won the Ole Miss game and the 29-yarder from the Miss St game that year. Forget somebody not being blocked, the fact remains his kicks have always been too low. All of that was obvious in 2015.

I'm glad you had confidence in him, because I sure didn't. I think anyone would look at Arkansas's kicking situation and see some real limitations there. At least McFain last year, he wasn't deadly accurate, but I had confidence that it was NOT going to be blocked. And I had reasonable confidence he would make it. I never had any of that with Hedlund.

He missed two kicks last season and was 95% in camp. I'm just wondering what you thought would be the reason for him losing his job. Just a gut feeling or what? Because it wasn't his performance evidently.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on September 20, 2017, 07:52:49 am
What has caused the OL issues?  Personnel management.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 09:59:39 am
Biddy thought McFain was the better kicker this season?

That's weird because McFain isn't on the team.  He graduated last year.

You know good and well I was talking about last season. Stop trolling.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 10:01:45 am
He missed two kicks last season and was 95% in camp. I'm just wondering what you thought would be the reason for him losing his job. Just a gut feeling or what? Because it wasn't his performance evidently.

I’m sure you will fire back, but I seriously wonder if Hedlund’s struggles are tied to the apparent lack of special teams emphasis under CBB.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRinds on September 20, 2017, 10:02:26 am
I’m sure you will fire back, but I seriously wonder if Hedlund’s struggles are tied to the apparent lack of special teams emphasis under CBB.

I feel like he's a head case.  Any high school field goal kicker could have made at least one of those kicks last game.

*edit
To be clear I don't mean personally, I mean kicking wise.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Dominicanhog on September 20, 2017, 10:04:51 am
I feel like he's a head case.  Any high school field goal kicker could have made at least one of those kicks last game.

*edit
To be clear I don't mean personally, I mean kicking wise.

how many PAT's has he missed.. almost amazing to see.. sad also...
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GunnerHawg70 on September 20, 2017, 10:10:04 am
What has caused the OL issues?  This is an easy one: No Sam Pittman, mediocre OL execution. Pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 10:16:49 am
I feel like he's a head case.  Any high school field goal kicker could have made at least one of those kicks last game.

*edit
To be clear I don't mean personally, I mean kicking wise.

Just so weird. Kickers seem to have that though.

They either have it come game time or they don’t.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRyan on September 20, 2017, 10:28:26 am
He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?

You do realize that he did lose the job in 2016, right?  After he missed a 25 yarder and then a 40 yarder that he kicked into the line.   
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PorkRyan on September 20, 2017, 10:31:53 am
He made a 38 yard field goal vs. TCU and Virginia Tech last season.

Hedlund made a 45 yard field goal vs. Ole Miss in 2015 - in hindsight that was pretty darn important.

He also missed a 27 yarder against TCU.  That 45 yarder was the only kick from 40+ that he made in his career at Arkansas. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 20, 2017, 10:35:34 am
I think that's right.  I really don't even care that much.  I just remember reading reports throughout camp that McFain looked better.  He got a lot more air under his kicks, whereas Cole hit those line drives.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: justmakeit2thebcs on September 20, 2017, 10:38:51 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
Yeah he doesn't care about winning or putting the best player on the field, he plays the guys that kiss his ass.  He should be playing the guys were rated four stars that don't don't put forth the effort required to be great.  If only we had Georgia's running game.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: forrest city joe on September 20, 2017, 11:31:59 am
Yeah he doesn't care about winning or putting the best player on the field, he plays the guys that kiss his ass.  He should be playing the guys were rated four stars that don't don't put forth the effort required to be great.  If only we had Georgia's running game.
How do you know those 4 stars are not putting in the effort? all 5 are not good enough or putting in the effort and the walk on are. i will put it this way. the OL of walk-on and Defensive Linemen,is not working. they look bad these first 2 games.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 11:46:41 am
Yeah he doesn't care about winning or putting the best player on the field, he plays the guys that kiss his ass.  He should be playing the guys were rated four stars that don't don't put forth the effort required to be great.  If only we had Georgia's running game.

You’re assuming the 4* guys aren’t putting forth the effort based on your belief the coach is playing the guys that work the hardest and look the best in practice. Many fans have lost that faith in CBB. My take is deeper on the roster decisions and I’ve already posted it multiple times.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HoginMemphis on September 20, 2017, 12:55:37 pm
I just watched the 9 min video of highlights of the 2010 LSU vs Arkansas in LR game. LSU was #5 and Ark was #12.

That Ark team's defense swarmed LSU. LSU couldn't run against the Hogs that game. Their QB was constantly harassed. Many sacks and hurries of LSU QB.

Mallet had years to throw. Great protection. Knile Davis had holes a truck could have driven through. WR's got separation from LSU defenders, and not just a little.

All in all, the current Razorback team looks like a FCS team on both sides of ball compared to the 2010 team. How has this program fallen so far in only a few years?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on September 20, 2017, 12:57:13 pm
Instead of being called RBU or TEU we should be labeled WOOLU.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on September 20, 2017, 01:08:15 pm
He missed two kicks last season and was 95% in camp. I'm just wondering what you thought would be the reason for him losing his job. Just a gut feeling or what? Because it wasn't his performance evidently.

Bielema is really feeling the pressure so he has a quicker hook than usual this season and Cole's removal from the Kickers depth chart is evidence of that.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: justmakeit2thebcs on September 20, 2017, 02:06:16 pm
You’re assuming the 4* guys aren’t putting forth the effort based on your belief the coach is playing the guys that work the hardest and look the best in practice. Many fans have lost that faith in CBB. My take is deeper on the roster decisions and I’ve already posted it multiple times.
You are assuming that I am assuming? LOL.  You have no way of knowing who my contacts are and what I know and don't know.  And I could care less about the "many fans that have lost faith in CBB".  We and every other fan base have many, many idiots.  You quoted Trey Biddy about roster decisions?  Laughable.  Hitch your wagon to Brian Wallace and Biddy if you want.  Why people would rather gripe than support is beyond me.   Do you really think you can start a grass roots movement to get CBB removed?  Carry on.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: justmakeit2thebcs on September 20, 2017, 02:11:26 pm
How do you know those 4 stars are not putting in the effort? all 5 are not good enough or putting in the effort and the walk on are. i will put it this way. the OL of walk-on and Defensive Linemen,is not working. they look bad these first 2 games.
You need to look at the tape.  Those two have not been the main issue.  Where do you get "they look bad" ?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 20, 2017, 02:39:49 pm
You need to look at the tape.  Those two have not been the main issue.  Where do you get "they look bad" ?


So who looks bad then?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on September 20, 2017, 02:43:21 pm

So who looks bad then?

When there are 8 defensive players coming after the QB but only 5 linemen their to block them, the whole play looks bad.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: IronHog on September 20, 2017, 05:20:26 pm
When there are 8 defensive players coming after the QB but only 5 linemen their to block them, the whole play looks bad.


He's saying the two chosen ones aren't they problem.....

Guess it's the All American and the "other two"
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: BoynamedWooPigSooie on September 20, 2017, 07:28:59 pm
Well Pittman not signing one legit OT is a good start.  Choosing a 4* Hawaiian that never played a down in 4 years over Stockton Mallett who has become an All-American at UCA also points to the staff not being as astute in talent evals as we were led to believe they are.

Another issue is the Strength & Conditioning program may the biggest fraud that Bielema has committed against the citizens of Arkansas and their tax dollars.  Look up Jared Cornelius' 247 profile, look at his face from his Sr. year to his Jr. year here photos. He has put on 40 lbs.  That's not what you want w/ your skill players. Herb fattens up the players like they're cattle at a finishing lot. He's making them bulky and slow. There are way too many players with double chins, fat faces and smooth arms.  Look at rosters around the league, our opponents rosters are full of big guys that look how elite athletes should look. It's a reasonable explanation why we always gas out and wilt away in the 2nd half.

There's also not enough nastiness and desire to win/be the best.  Too much hero worship for just being a Razorback and not enough that are out there willing to put in the extra work to earn it.  They simply do not work hard enough and if you want some great technical analysis research Geoff Schwartz and read up on some of his articles. There are issues w/ the stances and first steps out of the stance with our OL and everything snowballs badly from there.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: JaketheSnake on September 20, 2017, 07:38:46 pm
http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=375102.msg5636026#msg5636026

Been OL issues for a long time. 
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HamSammich on September 20, 2017, 07:53:30 pm
Bad evals? Bad coaching? Bad luck? All 3?

Boiler plate BB blaming will accomplish nothing in this thread, I'm truly wondering what has led to these problems.

Pittman leaving may have contributed, and perhaps Anderson needs to go. Also, bad luck in that a guy like Brian Wallace can't crack this starting lineup, despite being an army all american?


Bad coaching bad recruiting..:: hogville hated Pittman at the end. Well reap it
Title: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Arazorbackguy1 on October 01, 2017, 08:53:53 am
As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: b501 on October 01, 2017, 08:55:05 am
free kurt anderson
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hogs run wild on October 01, 2017, 08:55:52 am
i'm sure Benny will be in quickly to defend the Oline.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hoggish1 on October 01, 2017, 09:01:06 am
As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 

Passing: 19 for 26 / 264 yrds = 13.9 yrds per pass
Rushing: 228 yrds on 51 carries = 4.5 yrds per rush
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 01, 2017, 09:02:29 am
Passing: 19 for 26 / 264 yrds = 13.9 yrds per pass
Rushing: 228 yrds on 51 carries = 4.5 yrds per rush

That, I’m sure you realize, doesn’t tell the whole story.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 09:02:46 am
I’ll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there’s a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: IronMountainHog on October 01, 2017, 09:05:16 am
I’ll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there’s a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Feel free to also include all the holding penalties and yards we lost because of them.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: JaketheSnake on October 01, 2017, 09:06:15 am
Probably food poisoning. They had a bad breakfast buffet Saturday am.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jkstock04 on October 01, 2017, 09:12:31 am
I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 09:15:38 am
Feel free to also include all the holding penalties and yards we lost because of them.
Two.  For a total of 20yds. Three penalties in the game for a total of 35yds. Hold on Ragnow. Hold on Ramirez.  Roughing passer on Greenlaw. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hoggish1 on October 01, 2017, 09:17:35 am
That, I’m sure you realize, doesn’t tell the whole story.

Neither does it tell a lie.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:24:21 am
O-lines are puzzling this year. There's lots of griping on here about a couple of 4 stars on the bench. Watching F.S.U yesterday, their o-line is awful! Against Wake forest. I would think that 4 and 5 stars make up most of their line . Their recruiting is close to Bama.
   Last night, L.S.U against Troy, L.S.U was getting pushed around by TROY!! Troy was putting pressure on the L.S.U  Qb. L.S.U recruits similar to bama.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hoggish1 on October 01, 2017, 09:25:19 am
I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.

I'm curious; is this a wish or a fear? 

Likes...? As for Alabama/Auburn are you saying there others like them on our schedule?  Because if that's what you mean by likes, I can assure you there are none like them among Miss, MSU, USCe, LSU and UM.

I have observed you like the worse case scenario about Arkansas.  My question is:  Why are you are "fan?"
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 01, 2017, 09:27:45 am
Neither does it tell a lie.

It tells the NMSU-Arkansas story.

Back to conference play next weekend. That will change.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: elviscat on October 01, 2017, 09:41:31 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: IronHog on October 01, 2017, 09:43:43 am
O-lines are puzzling this year. There's lots of griping on here about a couple of 4 stars on the bench. Watching F.S.U yesterday, their o-line is awful! Against Wake forest. I would think that 4 and 5 stars make up most of their line . Their recruiting is close to Bama.
   Last night, L.S.U against Troy, L.S.U was getting pushed around by TROY!! Troy was putting pressure on the L.S.U  Qb. L.S.U recruits similar to bama.


LSU and FSU are far behind Bama in overall line talent......
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Al Boarland on October 01, 2017, 09:44:02 am
Can wait for FOTH to come back with the grades after the OL faces some legit DL’s.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: IronHog on October 01, 2017, 09:45:15 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.


It's both.....slow plays, bad OL play.


Allen isn't the best at dealing with pressure either. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: JaketheSnake on October 01, 2017, 09:45:36 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.
We saw a little more shotgun yesterday.  Hopefully that means we are planning more of that.  I understand being under center to really sell a handoff, but in obvious passion downs, why waste time faking the handoff?  We are not running a draw on 3rd and 12. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:49:04 am

LSU and FSU are far behind Bama in overall line talent......

Obviously they are,but they had similar recruiting. We just assume L.S.U and F.S.U missed on their kids ?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: IronHog on October 01, 2017, 09:49:47 am
Obviously they are,but they had similar recruiting. We just assume L.S.U and F.S.U missed on their kids ?


The recruiting isn't similar
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: bigpigpimpin on October 01, 2017, 09:51:52 am
Lack of talent
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:53:08 am

The recruiting isn't similar

You don't think those 2 programs get top 5 talent every year, seriously?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 09:53:15 am
I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.

3-1/2 seconds. Need to get rid of the ball. But Allen is trying to allow the younger receivers to get open so he stands and holds the ball beyond that time limit and takes a lot of hits and Sacks he shouldn't be taking. About half the time there are pass pro issues among the OL, TE's and RB's, but the other half of the time it is on Allen and the WR's. If the WR's can't break open on time he has to learn to just throw it away. Being a competitor I am sure that is difficult for him which is why he is taking too many hits.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Cambridge Hog on October 01, 2017, 09:53:57 am
Line looked better, though it was not vs A&M level talent.

What combinations of lines did they experiment with? Any work better than others?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:55:17 am
Yeah F.S.U is gonna have to recruit better. Lol
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GalaHawg on October 01, 2017, 09:56:56 am
We just need to find one more consistent guy on the right side - guard or tackle. Maybe Zach Rogers will work at right guard and they will keep Gibson at RT this week. Someone has to step up to the plate and show consistency. WRs are starting show some light --- Nance and Jones are emerging as mid-range and deep threats... Stewart and Hammonds are showing spark in the short game... CJ is emerging as a reliable target. Offense will get better as the season progresses but we need that one guy to step up to consistent SEC level on the right side to give an extra second or two to AA.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jkstock04 on October 01, 2017, 10:05:33 am
I'm curious; is this a wish or a fear? 

Likes...? As for Alabama/Auburn are you saying there others like them on our schedule?  Because if that's what you mean by likes, I can assure you there are none like them among Miss, MSU, USCe, LSU and UM.

I have observed you like the worse case scenario about Arkansas.  My question is:  Why are you are "fan?"
Ya that's it, you got me. I am wishing for Austin Allen to be critically injured..good call. Are you really this dense?

I'm a fan because I've always been. Hogs are the only college team I've ever cheered for. Just because I'm not a a mindless homer guaranteeing minimum 9-10 wins this year like yourself doesn't make me less of a fan.

I don't miss home games. And I'll be getting on a plane early Friday morning heading to Columbia to cheer the Hogs. How about you Mr. Homer?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Arazorbackguy1 on October 01, 2017, 10:06:06 am
I supposed I am talking about the line that still allowed Allen to get destroyed several times yesterday, including on one of the last drives of the game.  The guy is going to be a walking CTE patient by the time he's done at Arkansas.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 10:08:56 am
I supposed I am talking about the line that still allowed Allen to get destroyed several times yesterday, including on one of the last drives of the game.  The guy is going to be a walking CTE patient by the time he's done at Arkansas.

3-1/2 seconds. Need to get rid of the ball. But Allen is trying to allow the younger receivers to get open so he stands and holds the ball beyond that time limit and takes a lot of hits and Sacks he shouldn't be taking. About half the time there are pass pro issues among the OL, TE's and RB's, but the other half of the time it is on Allen and the WR's. If the WR's can't break open on time he has to learn to just throw it away. Being a competitor I am sure that is difficult for him which is why he is taking too many hits.

We've allowed 11 sacks through 5 games. Half of those are not on the OL.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: PorkRinds on October 01, 2017, 10:09:47 am
We are an OT away from having a decent OL.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: parallaxpig on October 01, 2017, 10:27:46 am
Passing: 19 for 26 / 264 yrds = 13.9 yrds per pass
Rushing: 228 yrds on 51 carries = 4.5 yrds per rush

Probably could be the Sunbelt Champions.....
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 10:34:35 am
We are an OT away from having a decent OL.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Gibson stays at RT and Rogers gets time at RG.  Rogers was solid when in yesterday.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: piggie 316 on October 01, 2017, 10:45:29 am
Wouldn’t surprise me if Gibson stays at RT and Rogers gets time at RG.  Rogers was solid when in yesterday.
I would like to see more of this also.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 10:47:54 am
Can wait for FOTH to come back with the grades after the OL faces some legit DL’s.
I always do.  Rather have the coaching staffs grades who know he assignments than the experts on the message boards.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Ward on October 01, 2017, 10:54:32 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.


oh, so 120 years of under center snaps have been lying to us

I see, I see..
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Ward on October 01, 2017, 10:58:38 am
3-1/2 seconds. Need to get rid of the ball. But Allen is trying to allow the younger receivers to get open so he stands and holds the ball beyond that time limit and takes a lot of hits and Sacks he shouldn't be taking. About half the time there are pass pro issues among the OL, TE's and RB's, but the other half of the time it is on Allen and the WR's. If the WR's can't break open on time he has to learn to just throw it away. Being a competitor I am sure that is difficult for him which is why he is taking too many hits.

if a QB is holding the ball too long, he's not reading his progressions

Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Ward on October 01, 2017, 10:59:40 am
Wouldn’t surprise me if Gibson stays at RT and Rogers gets time at RG.  Rogers was solid when in yesterday.


good news! He needs a chance to help
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: lakecityhog on October 01, 2017, 11:08:34 am
I thought that Rogers got in the game yesterday. Did Wallace ever get any snaps?
Saw in the participation chart that Merrick and Raulerson played were they on special teams or what?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 11:09:22 am
if a QB is holding the ball too long, he's not reading his progressions



Or he is waiting for someone to come open. I don't care which it is, if the ball isn't leaving his hand in 3-1/2 to 4 seconds (max) he is taking a chance that he is either going to get sacked or get drilled at the release.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 01, 2017, 11:10:39 am
I thought that Rogers got in the game yesterday. Did Wallace ever get any snaps?
Saw in the participation chart that Merrick and Raulerson played were they on special teams or what?

Rogers worked in at right guard toward the end of the game I believe.

Not sure about Wallace.

Did they ever say what Ramirez left the game with..... it looked like a shoulder injury from the stands but I never got word.  He came back in so it wasn't too bad.

I think Merrick and Raulerson play on field goal/extra point protection.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: HenduHog on October 01, 2017, 11:10:55 am
I think it is a number of things.

1. We build our lines for power (300lbs+ except for Clary). Power doesn't always translate well to pass blocking that requires agility, uper body strength, and quickness.

2. Some of it is pure talent. Not that they don't work hard, but if the guy across from is quicker, stronger, and more agile, he wins most of the time. As some have said, we don't recruit like Bama.

3. Strength . I've been complaining for years that our linemen (O and D) are simply not as strong as the guys they compete against. How many times do we see our Oline pushed back into the backfield? How many times have you seen our Dline blown off the ball?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Con el Cerdos on October 01, 2017, 11:22:42 am
I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.

You're absolutely right, IMO.  Not sure he will survive the Bama and/or Auburn games injury free.  D for each is brutal.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: WilsonHog on October 01, 2017, 11:30:19 am
I respect the hell out of Austin Allen. It is amazing to me that Austin Allen gets criticized for holding the ball too long when he is doing it to try to make a play. Do you people not realize that he KNOWS he is about to get the piss knocked out of him?

Guarantee if he was throwing it out of bounds to avoid the hit, the Hogville narrative would be, "The kid is gutless."

The truth is, our offense is pretty complex. Has a lot of moving parts. I'm convinced that's why we tend to start every season slowly.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jkstock04 on October 01, 2017, 11:36:43 am
Or he is waiting for someone to come open. I don't care which it is, if the ball isn't leaving his hand in 3-1/2 to 4 seconds (max) he is taking a chance that he is either going to get sacked or get drilled at the release.
I don't doubt this is part of the equation as well. From the first game I saw problems with receivers getting open...thus him holding on to ball too long. You are right on 4 seconds. Realistically you can't expect blocking to hold up longer than that.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: IronMountainHog on October 01, 2017, 11:42:43 am
Two.  For a total of 20yds. Three penalties in the game for a total of 35yds. Hold on Ragnow. Hold on Ramirez.  Roughing passer on Greenlaw. 
How about the yards we lost besides the penalties? I was at the game. In the first quarter we had about a 25 yard gain off a pass to the visitors side. That was wiped out, and we also lost 10 yards on the penalty. That's 35 lost, not just 10.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: DoubleReedHawgCaller on October 01, 2017, 11:48:39 am
I’ll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there’s a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Don't leave out AA's missing teeth, busted chin, and the marathon he ran trying to keep from getting his brains beat in thru the first 4 games of the season too.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 11:49:20 am
I respect the hell out of Austin Allen. It is amazing to me that Austin Allen gets criticized for holding the ball too long when he is doing it to try to make a play. Do you people not realize that he KNOWS he is about to get the piss knocked out of him?

Guarantee if he was throwing it out of bounds to avoid the hit, the Hogville narrative would be, "The kid is gutless."

The truth is, our offense is pretty complex. Has a lot of moving parts. I'm convinced that's why we tend to start every season slowly.
The same people complaining about Austin holding the ball too long were complaining that Brandon left the pocket and threw the ball away too much.  What do you do when the answer to what your complaining about is what you’ve already complained about? Maybe we should just let Enos coordinate the offense.   I will say that the play action backside throwback to the TE has been shown so much in film that most teams are on to it.  The intentionally unblocked DE gives Austin a shot every time it’s called.  That’s the play where I worry about Austin getting nailed.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: DoubleReedHawgCaller on October 01, 2017, 11:50:38 am
We are an OT away from having a decent OL.
WTH!!! Good lord man you're just delusional.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: LRHawg on October 01, 2017, 12:07:39 pm
Wouldn’t surprise me if Gibson stays at RT and Rogers gets time at RG.  Rogers was solid when in yesterday.

Yes! I think this should be the starting right side going forward.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Captain Morgan on October 01, 2017, 12:10:37 pm
It started w Samantha Pittman and ended with Kurt Anderson
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jm on October 01, 2017, 12:10:44 pm
All of the above plus kids don't learn any fundamentals in high school.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: The_Iceman on October 01, 2017, 12:15:28 pm
Merrick and Wallace not stepping up and being the players they should be. Investing so much time recruiting those two guys and for them to not pan out is crippling. Shouldn't have two 4-star all Americans sitting on the bench.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jkstock04 on October 01, 2017, 12:16:08 pm
The same people complaining about Austin holding the ball too long were complaining that Brandon left the pocket and threw the ball away too much.  What do you do when the answer to what your complaining about is what you’ve already complained about? Maybe we should just let Enos coordinate the offense.   I will say that the play action backside throwback to the TE has been shown so much in film that most teams are on to it.  The intentionally unblocked DE gives Austin a shot every time it’s called.  That’s the play where I worry about Austin getting nailed.
Let Enos coordinate the offense? Weren't you the guy who put him and his play calling as the main reason why we lost to TCU?

I don't recall people complaining about Brandon Allen throwing the ball away too much. Like someone else said above...so far this year we have seen Austin Allen under constant pressure and taking a hell of a beating. I'm open minded that it's not all on the O-line. Coverage sacks and blown RB assignments. Not to mention he probably needs to recognize when they are bringing the house and audible out of it. Whatever combination it is hopefully it gets better quick.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 12:16:26 pm
The same people complaining about Austin holding the ball too long were complaining that Brandon left the pocket and threw the ball away too much.  What do you do when the answer to what your complaining about is what you’ve already complained about? Maybe we should just let Enos coordinate the offense.   I will say that the play action backside throwback to the TE has been shown so much in film that most teams are on to it.  The intentionally unblocked DE gives Austin a shot every time it’s called.  That’s the play where I worry about Austin getting nailed.

Did you see the film of Del Rio from Florida landing on the point of his shoulder yesterday? Broken collarbone...gone for the season.

I know that Austin is a competitor and wants to complete every single pass. I applaud him, his courage and tenacity for that. But this is where Enos has to drill it into his head (as long as we have WR's still developing and other teams catching on to our TE releases/patterns) that when you get to 3-1/2 to 4  seconds on that clock ticking in your head, whether anyone is open or not, get rid of the ball. Better to do that and try again on another play instead of taking the chance of getting hurt, being gone for good and us having to take a negative play. If fans don't like it, who cares? It is the smart play.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: incHOGnito on October 01, 2017, 12:20:54 pm

LSU and FSU are far behind Bama in overall line talent......

LSU is not far behind. Look at the last ten NFL drafts and tell me who sends more prayers to the pros than any other university. Bama may have a better coached team, but is not more talented.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 12:25:54 pm
Let Enos coordinate the offense? Weren't you the guy who put him and his play calling as the main reason why we lost to TCU?

I don't recall people complaining about Brandon Allen throwing the ball away too much. Like someone else said above...so far this year we have seen Austin Allen under constant pressure and taking a hell of a beating. I'm open minded that it's not all on the O-line. Coverage sacks and blown RB assignments. Not to mention he probably needs to recognize when they are bringing the house and audible out of it. Whatever combination it is hopefully it gets better quick.
I’ve always like the Enos playbook.  My hope is that we continue to see more of it.  Against TCU, And anyone else for that matter, I wish they would spread things out rather than compress the line of scrimmage in the red zone. They aren’t 340 across the board anymore and can’t just go straight downhill against 8 man fronts.  4 for 4 in the red zone yesterday is a huge step in the right direction.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: JaketheSnake on October 01, 2017, 01:10:01 pm
Merrick and Wallace not stepping up and being the players they should be. Investing so much time recruiting those two guys and for them to not pan out is crippling. Shouldn't have two 4-star all Americans sitting on the bench.
Merrick is a Sophomore.  Give him time.  Wallace... hope he can be a contributor next year. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: hogginbama on October 01, 2017, 01:12:23 pm
Two.  For a total of 20yds. Three penalties in the game for a total of 35yds. Hold on Ragnow. Hold on Ramirez.  Roughing passer on Greenlaw. 

FOTH, you know you can't bring stats and truth to these guys. They are all upset that the team won and actually showed improvement in some areas. Most of them were predicting a 7-5/8-4 season during the summer and now act as if we should be in top 10. I truly feel sorry for most of them as it seems they wake up everyday lokking for something to gripe and complain about. Thankfully Hogville exists so they can vent here instead of taking their frustrations out on their families.

Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 01, 2017, 01:19:19 pm
Two.  For a total of 20yds. Three penalties in the game for a total of 35yds. Hold on Ragnow. Hold on Ramirez.  Roughing passer on Greenlaw.

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/facts.gif)
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Con el Cerdos on October 01, 2017, 02:41:47 pm
I’ve always like the Enos playbook.  My hope is that we continue to see more of it.  Against TCU, And anyone else for that matter, I wish they would spread things out rather than compress the line of scrimmage in the red zone. They aren’t 340 across the board anymore and can’t just go straight downhill against 8 man fronts.  4 for 4 in the red zone yesterday is a huge step in the right direction.

If there is an answer to getting substantially better your comment is it, IMO.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: pigskenG on October 01, 2017, 02:49:59 pm
just wondering. are we putting more emphasis on OL that can slide left to right for better pass blocking vs the road grader power blockers that we started with when Bielema got here ( like Wisconsin ) ?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 02:54:43 pm
FOTH, you know you can't bring stats and truth to these guys. They are all upset that the team won and actually showed improvement in some areas. Most of them were predicting a 7-5/8-4 season during the summer and now act as if we should be in top 10. I truly feel sorry for most of them as it seems they wake up everyday lokking for something to gripe and complain about. Thankfully Hogville exists so they can vent here instead of taking their frustrations out on their families.


You might find this amusing.  HOGVILLE is a much bigger deal than any of us know.  We sat in the front row yesterday behind the bench.  Ragnow got called for holding.  All-American, future first round draft pick, Frank Ragnow.  Some guy a few row behind us started screaming, “Get 72 out of there!” “He sucks!” “”Can’t play worth a #%*#”
I heard a player on the sideline shout “King of HOGVILLE is in the house!” and a handful of players laugh.  That pretty much sums up how important any of us are.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: WaltonCollege on October 01, 2017, 03:24:45 pm
Our tackle aren't long and flexible enough, poor reach. Our guards struggle with stunts, clary was blown up 4 straight plays by that DT Lopez. I know not every recruit is going to be a home run but Merrick, Heinrich, Wallace, Rogers all were 4 stars or higher. Someone's gotta start man come on that's just crazy.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: lakecityhog on October 01, 2017, 03:26:03 pm
Wouldn’t surprise me if Gibson stays at RT and Rogers gets time at RG.  Rogers was solid when in yesterday.

Hate that it took 4 games to figure this out!
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jgphillips3 on October 01, 2017, 03:30:27 pm
You might find this amusing.  HOGVILLE is a much bigger deal than any of us know.  We sat in the front row yesterday behind the bench.  Ragnow got called for holding.  All-American, future first round draft pick, Frank Ragnow.  Some guy a few row behind us started screaming, “Get 72 out of there!” “He sucks!” “”Can’t play worth a #%*#”
I heard a player on the sideline shout “King of HOGVILLE is in the house!” and a handful of players laugh.  That pretty much sums up how important any of us are.

See, they really need to work on player education.  If that guy didn’t know who Ragnow was, he clearly doesn’t post on HOGVILLE.  :)
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Cure on October 01, 2017, 03:35:49 pm
Sean Kugler is now available.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 01, 2017, 03:36:48 pm
Sean Kugler is now available.

UTEP fired Stone Cold Sean Kugler?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 03:40:12 pm
You might find this amusing.  HOGVILLE is a much bigger deal than any of us know.  We sat in the front row yesterday behind the bench.  Ragnow got called for holding.  All-American, future first round draft pick, Frank Ragnow.  Some guy a few row behind us started screaming, “Get 72 out of there!” “He sucks!” “”Can’t play worth a #%*#”
I heard a player on the sideline shout “King of HOGVILLE is in the house!” and a handful of players laugh.  That pretty much sums up how important any of us are.

By the same token, I am sure that much of that which is posted here and makes it's way to the team, doesn't seem informed, accurate or supportive to the team, which is why they get a big belly laugh. That fan, whomever he was, should be ashamed and drink less. Stupid is as stupid does.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 01, 2017, 03:40:19 pm
Yep, Kugler "stepped down".

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/10/1/16352378/sean-kugler-fired-utep-coach.

Please..... hire him as a consultant and move him into the offensive line position soon.

Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: rhames on October 01, 2017, 03:43:50 pm
My thing is why not change the play at the line in the red zone when you see 10 people in the box.


Other than that I've been happy with the progress of the offense the last month.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: WilsonHog on October 01, 2017, 03:51:14 pm
By the same token, I am sure that much of that which is posted here and makes it's way to the team, doesn't seem informed, accurate or supportive to the team, which is why they get a big belly laugh. That fan, whomever he was, should be ashamed and drink less. Stupid is as stupid does.

Ah, but of course we have the best fans around.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 03:52:27 pm
My thing is why not change the play at the line in the red zone when you see 10 people in the box.


Other than that I've been happy with the progress of the offense the last month.

I don't disagree, I'm not sure that we do enough of that with a Sr. QB at any place on the field, if he is truly capable of reading defenses and their sets and recognizing their tendencies based on down and distance in any field position due to film study of the opponent. The staff should certainly be prepared to send in changes based on this information even if AA isn't capable of doing so on his own.

But, I will say that I have seen our RB's run to the wrong hole at times in the RZ when the hole was clearly provided by the O-Line for the RB to gash.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: rhames on October 01, 2017, 03:53:34 pm
I don't disagree, I'm not sure that we do enough of that with a Sr. QB at any place on the field, if he is truly capable of reading defenses and their sets and recognizing their tendencies based on down and distance in any field position due to film study of the opponent. The staff should certainly be prepared to send in changes based on this information even if AA isn't capable of doing so on his own.

But, I will say that I have seen our RB's run to the wrong hole at times in the RZ when the hole was clearly provided by the O-Line for the RB to gash.



Oh yeah. There have RBs make mistakes as well.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: lakecityhog on October 01, 2017, 03:55:06 pm
Would take him TODAY! O'Line Coach
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 04:06:51 pm
Ah, but of course we have the best fans around.

I have no comment, even though I commented. ;)
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: PorkRinds on October 01, 2017, 04:24:43 pm
WTH!!! Good lord man you're just delusional.

If we had ragnow at center, Gibson and froholdt at guard, Jackson st RT and a good option at LT we'd be pretty decent. That's just the truth.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hogs-n-Roses on October 01, 2017, 04:35:11 pm
I respect the hell out of Austin Allen. It is amazing to me that Austin Allen gets criticized for holding the ball too long when he is doing it to try to make a play. Do you people not realize that he KNOWS he is about to get the piss knocked out of him?

Guarantee if he was throwing it out of bounds to avoid the hit, the Hogville narrative would be, "The kid is gutless."

The truth is, our offense is pretty complex. Has a lot of moving parts. I'm convinced that's why we tend to start every season slowly.
This. I saw 4 or 5 other SEC teams yesterday, Tennessee,South Carolina, Ole Miss, especially LSU struggle with the same OL issue. It gave me hope as each of those teams has recruited better at the OL than we have cept maybe SC. The Austin A. part of your post is accurate. NO one would want to take THOSE HITS. He may miss from time to time in looking for receivers but mostly he's out of sinc for other reasons.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: HardCore on October 01, 2017, 04:39:13 pm
As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 

It is big ole boys that are just big....not agile
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 01, 2017, 04:45:44 pm
Line isn't any good.  QB isn't any good.  Receivers aren't very good.  All there is to it. Defense is pretty weak. Bama can hang 70 on us. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: HardCore on October 01, 2017, 04:47:46 pm
Line isn't any good.  QB isn't any good.  Receivers aren't very good.  All there is to it. Defense is pretty weak. Bama can hang 70 on us. 

If they choose to..yes
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GoHogs1091 on October 01, 2017, 04:58:06 pm
A combination of 3 things.

Both of the Tackle positions have not been figured out.  Gibson is being played out of position to try to compensate at the Right Tackle position, but that has led to the Right Guard position not being solid.  Simply put, 3 out of 5 OL positions not being what they need to be will lead to sieve OL play.  If Gibson would get moved back to Right Guard, then it would then become just a 2 position (Tackles) problem.  I presume moving Gibson back to Right Guard is too complicated of a basic fundamental decision for the Head Coach to make.

Kurt Anderson has probably oversaturated them with technique concepts.  That is probably making them think too much.  In a lot of instances, just being more physical can be more important than garbage NFL type technique.

Dan Enos' MAC conference offense has too many long developing plays.  The plays need to be more quickly developing against competent defenses.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 05:00:12 pm
Line isn't any good.  QB isn't any good.  Receivers aren't very good.  All there is to it. Defense is pretty weak. Bama can hang 70 on us. 

You are so far out in left field. Maybe you need to start writing a column for Saturday Down South.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 01, 2017, 05:02:27 pm
You are so far out in left field. Maybe you need to start writing a column for Saturday Down South.

What I get wrong?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 05:03:26 pm
What I get wrong?

2-1/2 out of 3.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GuvHog on October 01, 2017, 05:04:40 pm
You are so far out in left field. Maybe you need to start writing a column for Saturday Down South.

Agreed. AA wasn't sacked at all yesterday and the offensive line opened up gaping holes for the running game allowing the offense to amass over 400 yards total offense and 43 points.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 05:06:01 pm
Agreed. AA wasn't sacked at all yesterday and the offensive line opened up gaping holes for the running game allowing the offense to amass over 400 yards total offense and 43 points.

I wasn't just speaking to yesterdays game.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 01, 2017, 05:06:42 pm
2-1/2 out of 3.

Okey Dokey.  Enjoy your fantasy world, where everyone drinks free bubalub and Austin Allen is a pro prospect.  lol
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jcbville on October 01, 2017, 05:07:33 pm
Kurt Anderson
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 05:09:42 pm
I’m still trying to get past “NFL type garbage technique” mentioned in a post above.  Technique tips the scale in your favor when your aren’t phyiscally dominant.  When you are physically dominant, it makes you more so.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Dwight_K_Shrute on October 01, 2017, 05:15:00 pm
Yep, Kugler "stepped down".

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/10/1/16352378/sean-kugler-fired-utep-coach.

Please..... hire him as a consultant and move him into the offensive line position soon.



I actually tweeted this when I saw the news.  You have a chance to upgrade, take it.  Let him be the guy but let Anderson keep the title until the end of the year and then when the coaching carousel goes into effect Anderson should be able to find a job. Kugler is too good not to pick up.  Besides Anderson is used to being the assistant to the assistant.  Bet Kugler's experience at UTEP would also be beneficial in recruiting Texas, no he was recruiting 4 and 5 * kids but I'm sure he has a decent knowledge of the Texas HS scene and contacts and relationships.  Would be an upgrade in position coaching and recruiting.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 05:18:13 pm
Okey Dokey.  Enjoy your fantasy world, where everyone drinks free bubalub and Austin Allen is a pro prospect.  lol

That's a typically childish comment when you have nothing better to add than just a negative comment. Pile on by all means, it is easy, stylish and in vogue. Incorrect, but you will be, "one of the guys".
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GoHogs1091 on October 01, 2017, 05:27:12 pm
I’m still trying to get past “NFL type garbage technique” mentioned in a post above.  Technique tips the scale in your favor when your aren’t phyiscally dominant.  When you are physically dominant, it makes you more so.

Sam Pittman taught them to be physical and to push defenders down the field.

Kurt Anderson is infatuated with NFL technique.  That has come at the expense of physicality.  There isn't enough time at the NCAA level (hours limitation per week) to be trying to teach and get fancy with NFL technique.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 01, 2017, 05:28:38 pm
That's a typically childish comment when you have nothing better to add than just a negative comment. Pile on by all means, it is easy, stylish and in vogue. Incorrect, but you will be, "one of the guys".

How drunk are you? 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 01, 2017, 05:31:22 pm
Are you drunk enough that you think the Hogs have such a good team that I am the nut for thinking they aren't very good?   Or are you just insane?   
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GuvHog on October 01, 2017, 05:34:07 pm
I wasn't just speaking to yesterdays game.

They did pretty well against A&M too.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on October 01, 2017, 05:35:00 pm
Everyone is understandably hyper sensitive about the oline right now and picking it apart. As a unit the subpar play has earned the scrutiny, but we also need to recognize we may be a bit over-conscious of it too.

I'd tend to compare yesterday with what we saw against FL A&M. A lesser opponent than NMS that had a lot more success pressuring Allen. They got a sack and were consistently harassing him. NMS wasn't nearly as effective. I'd assess that as improvement, granted we still need to see improvement vs an SEC opponent, but improvement nonetheless.  We'll see how things go vs SC.

Im a bit more optimistic about our chances for this season after watching yesterdays games. We still have our problems but certainly no worse than a few others in west. Lots of winnable games still to play.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 05:36:54 pm
Sam Pittman taught them to be physical and to push defenders down the field.

Kurt Anderson is infatuated with NFL technique.  That has come at the expense of physicality.  There isn't enough time at the NCAA level (hours limitation per week) to be trying to get teach and get fancy with NFL technique.

Pittman recruited to that style and when he was told that the offense was going in another direction (mobility) for Enos’ offense, he left.  They don’t get the 6’6”, 350 guys anymore.  Pittman left and they scrambled to get Heinrich out of HS and Rauelrson as a Grad transfer, and Malone and Ramirez from a Juco.  When Anderson went out an got a class signed, it was Clary, Adcock, Clenin, and Wagner.  That’s 6’5”, 6’5”, 6’6”, and 6’9” all between 285 and 315.  This is what the OC wants.  Mobility with good technique.  Clones of Ragnow.  Clenin will be a beast. 

I’m excited that they seem to have lined up the playbook.  They haven’t scratched the surface of what Enos did at Central Michigan.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 06:12:22 pm
How drunk are you? 

You wish.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Dominicanhog on October 01, 2017, 06:20:56 pm
My biggest concern is they (coaches) seem so unsettled about who to play and where.. it  makes me wonder if they learned anything from last year or during Spring and Fall camp... that said, I don't think it's been the OL's fault.. they've probably been the most consistent unit.. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Bubba's Bruisers on October 01, 2017, 06:25:12 pm
A combination of 3 things.

Both of the Tackle positions have not been figured out.  Gibson is being played out of position to try to compensate at the Right Tackle position, but that has led to the Right Guard position not being solid.  Simply put, 3 out of 5 OL positions not being what they need to be will lead to sieve OL play.  If Gibson would get moved back to Right Guard, then it would then become just a 2 position (Tackles) problem.  I presume moving Gibson back to Right Guard is too complicated of a basic fundamental decision for the Head Coach to make.

Kurt Anderson has probably oversaturated them with technique concepts.  That is probably making them think too much.  In a lot of instances, just being more physical can be more important than garbage NFL type technique.

Dan Enos' MAC conference offense has too many long developing plays.  The plays need to be more quickly developing against competent defenses.

In summary, not sure we have any SEC caliber OT's. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GoHogs1091 on October 01, 2017, 06:28:32 pm
It started w Samantha Pittman and ended with Kurt Anderson

Samantha Pittman??

Keep in mind that Sam Pittman recruited and landed Frank Ragnow.

Doubtful Kurt Anderson will land another Ragnow type of an Offensive Lineman.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 06:30:25 pm
Are you drunk enough that you think the Hogs have such a good team that I am the nut for thinking they aren't very good?   Or are you just insane?   

No, I think that a lot of you feed off of each other and hyper-react. Nothing is as bad as some of you want to make it seem, it also isn't as good as some others might want to believe. We have work to do on the O-Line, but no one would be judging them so harshly if we had more experienced receivers who knew how to execute patterns and get open earlier. Then AA wouldn't be standing there waiting for them to break free because he wants to complete every throw.

In all but one game we have exceeded 200 yards rushing and after 4 games we are averaging 4.8 Yds/rush. That's not bad especially given the fact that Whaley is a young Soph. and still learning and Chase Hayden has very few snaps under his belt. Glad we have David. He's been an asset.

Still, we aren't perfect on the O-Line in pass pro, but as I have said before, half the Sacks that we have can't be attributed to the O-Line. RB's and TE's have missed on their pass pro and then AA is trying to wait until the last second to try to give the younger receivers a chance to get open. That leads to more hits on the QB. That's just how it is.

The defense is improved in many ways. They are more aggressive than last year but still not as consistently aggressive as we might like to see. I understand that, but they are 4 games into a new defensive scheme and still matriculating. You aren't going to see a refined product 4 games into a new scheme. In fact everyone on this board was discussing that every thing before the season started, yet here we are 4 games in and it has turned to, "woe is me, we suck".

And AA is a good QB but he is just doing the same thing that he did at the last part of last season, trying to put the whole team on his back and taking shots that he doesn't need to take. He's one of the best in the SEC if he can just learn to throw it away and live to play another play. Of course the receivers as a whole (not just 1, 2 or the occasional 3) need to get their act together and help out. That will open up the TE passing game and the run game even more.

So yeah, it's just my opinion but I think you are way off the mark along with anyone who thinks that way. We aren't that far from being a far better and more consistent team and if the defense can be just average, they will give us an opportunity to win 8 or 9 this year. But I will say that from a scheming standpoint on offense, we have to stop playing so conservative in the second half of games and continue to put the foot on the gas.

That's my two cents.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: ballz2thewall on October 01, 2017, 06:35:23 pm
I’ve always like the Enos playbook.  My hope is that we continue to see more of it.  Against TCU, And anyone else for that matter, I wish they would spread things out rather than compress the line of scrimmage in the red zone. They aren’t 340 across the board anymore and can’t just go straight downhill against 8 man fronts.  4 for 4 in the red zone yesterday is a huge step in the right direction.

completely agree on spreading things out. let the backs do some of the work. hell, throw in some zone read.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: ShadowHawg on October 01, 2017, 06:37:35 pm
Our line lacks athletes.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Dominicanhog on October 01, 2017, 06:38:25 pm
No, I think that a lot of you feed off of each other and hyper-react. Nothing is as bad as some of you want to make it seem, it also isn't as good as some others might want to believe. We have work to do on the O-Line, but no one would be judging them so harshly if we had more experienced receivers who knew how to execute patterns and get open earlier. Then AA wouldn't be standing there waiting for them to break free because he wants to complete every throw.

In all but one game we have exceeded 200 yards rushing and after 4 games we are averaging 4.8 Yds/rush. That's not bad especially given the fact that Whaley is a young Soph. and still learning and Chase Hayden has very few snaps under his belt. Glad we have David. He's been an asset.

Still, we aren't perfect on the O-Line in pass pro, but as I have said before, half the Sacks that we have can't be attributed to the O-Line. RB's and TE's have missed on their pass pro and then AA is trying to wait until the last second to try to give the younger receivers a chance to get open. That leads to more hits on the QB. That's just how it is.

The defense is improved in many ways. They are more aggressive than last year but still not as consistently aggressive as we might like to see. I understand that, but they are 4 games into a new defensive scheme and still matriculating. You aren't going to see a refined product 4 games into a new scheme. In fact everyone on this board was discussing that every thing before the season started, yet here we are 4 games in and it has turned to, "woe is me, we suck".

And AA is a good QB but he is just doing the same thing that he did at the last part of last season, trying to put the whole team on his back and taking shots that he doesn't need to take. He's one of the best in the SEC if he can just learn to throw it away and live to play another play. Of course the receivers as a whole (not just 1, 2 or the occasional 3) need to get their act together and help out. That will open up the TE passing game and the run game even more.

So yeah, it's just my opinion but I think you are way off the mark along with anyone who thinks that way. We aren't that far from being a far better and more consistent team and if the defense can be just average, they will give us an opportunity to win 8 or 9 this year. But I will say that from a scheming standpoint on offense, we have to stop playing so conservative in the second half of games and continue to put the foot on the gas.

That's my two cents.

You sure get a lot for your money...
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 01, 2017, 06:39:33 pm
You sure get a lot for your money...

I try to, especially when some folks just want to make a blanket statement that everything on the team is bad.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: ballz2thewall on October 01, 2017, 06:40:16 pm
My thing is why not change the play at the line in the red zone when you see 10 people in the box.


Other than that I've been happy with the progress of the offense the last month.

good point.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: prattville pig on October 01, 2017, 06:44:10 pm
I watched a lot of games yesterday, and I saw a lot of not very good offensive lines.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Letsroll1200 on October 01, 2017, 06:49:23 pm
Yes! I think this should be the starting right side going forward.

Gibson is a guard. Put B. Wallace in the game.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Dominicanhog on October 01, 2017, 06:51:01 pm
I try to, especially when some folks just want to make a blanket statement that everything on the team is bad.

I understand and have been guilty myself of voicing frustration.. but this story is yet to be written, though we all think we know how it ends... We'll know a lot more about "how good we are" over the next month.. you can bet one thing for sure, some will be on here saying. I told you so..
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Hogvillage Idiot on October 01, 2017, 06:52:00 pm
We saw a little more shotgun yesterday.  Hopefully that means we are planning more of that.  I understand being under center to really sell a handoff, but in obvious passion downs, why waste time faking the handoff?  We are not running a draw on 3rd and 12.
;D
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: ballz2thewall on October 01, 2017, 06:53:58 pm
one thing i've noticed.

our tackles allow the DE or whomever is on the end, a free pass when the play is to the other side.

you can tell that it's by design.

on many such times, that free running defender ends up affecting the play.

and if you follow our tackles, they aren't off to more important blocks elsewhere. i saw it against tcu and atm.

this might somehow be acceptable offensive philosophy. if that's the case, then it needs to be changed.

i'm not talking whiffs. i'm talking about a free pass. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on October 01, 2017, 07:33:00 pm

It's both.....slow plays, bad OL play.


Allen isn't the best at dealing with pressure either. 

Why do you care since the game was in NWA.
Title: Would you say th o-line, as a unit, is...
Post by: Al Boarland on October 02, 2017, 05:31:52 am
Better, worse or the same as last season?
Title: Re: Would you say th o-line, as a unit, is...
Post by: nchogg on October 02, 2017, 05:36:18 am
The same.
Title: Re: Would you say th o-line, as a unit, is...
Post by: 31to6 on October 02, 2017, 06:08:59 am
Better, worse or the same as last season?
Skipper is missed.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Jimbob111 on October 02, 2017, 07:07:07 am
No, I think that a lot of you feed off of each other and hyper-react. Nothing is as bad as some of you want to make it seem, it also isn't as good as some others might want to believe. We have work to do on the O-Line, but no one would be judging them so harshly if we had more experienced receivers who knew how to execute patterns and get open earlier. Then AA wouldn't be standing there waiting for them to break free because he wants to complete every throw.

In all but one game we have exceeded 200 yards rushing and after 4 games we are averaging 4.8 Yds/rush. That's not bad especially given the fact that Whaley is a young Soph. and still learning and Chase Hayden has very few snaps under his belt. Glad we have David. He's been an asset.

Still, we aren't perfect on the O-Line in pass pro, but as I have said before, half the Sacks that we have can't be attributed to the O-Line. RB's and TE's have missed on their pass pro and then AA is trying to wait until the last second to try to give the younger receivers a chance to get open. That leads to more hits on the QB. That's just how it is.

The defense is improved in many ways. They are more aggressive than last year but still not as consistently aggressive as we might like to see. I understand that, but they are 4 games into a new defensive scheme and still matriculating. You aren't going to see a refined product 4 games into a new scheme. In fact everyone on this board was discussing that every thing before the season started, yet here we are 4 games in and it has turned to, "woe is me, we suck".

And AA is a good QB but he is just doing the same thing that he did at the last part of last season, trying to put the whole team on his back and taking shots that he doesn't need to take. He's one of the best in the SEC if he can just learn to throw it away and live to play another play. Of course the receivers as a whole (not just 1, 2 or the occasional 3) need to get their act together and help out. That will open up the TE passing game and the run game even more.

So yeah, it's just my opinion but I think you are way off the mark along with anyone who thinks that way. We aren't that far from being a far better and more consistent team and if the defense can be just average, they will give us an opportunity to win 8 or 9 this year. But I will say that from a scheming standpoint on offense, we have to stop playing so conservative in the second half of games and continue to put the foot on the gas.

That's my two cents.

This is a great post. Let me ask you this, though. To my untrained eye, the offensive and defensive line as well as the receivers all seem to lack any SEC talent or speed with the past two recruiting classes aside from Agim and Ragnow. Nance went JUCO because no coach wanted him to play receiver and he looks most promising on this squad.   Do you see this improving under this staff? Recruiting and development, that is.

Either there is talent there and it's not being developed or the talent is not there to develop. If both talent and development were there, we wouldn't have this thread.

On game day, this does not appear to be a Razorbacks team and does not appear to be an SEC team. They fail the eye test, both on the sideline and in the game, to me.

While your post was spot-on, it applies to all teams at all levels on any given season without taking into account this specific team and this specific coaching staff compared to previous seasons. Do you feel like recruiting and development are going to improve under this staff based on what we've seen in the past four and a half years?

I'll hang up and listen.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 02, 2017, 07:16:13 am
Gibson is a guard. Put B. Wallace in the game.
Wallace doesn’t make the call adjustments and as a result isn’t in the field.  Gibson is a known  for playing guard from the Florida game forward last year,  but actually backed up Kirkland at LT in 2015.  He can play both spots on both sides. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 02, 2017, 07:20:16 am
one thing i've noticed.

our tackles allow the DE or whomever is on the end, a free pass when the play is to the other side.

you can tell that it's by design.

on many such times, that free running defender ends up affecting the play.

and if you follow our tackles, they aren't off to more important blocks elsewhere. i saw it against tcu and atm.

this might somehow be acceptable offensive philosophy. if that's the case, then it needs to be changed.

i'm not talking whiffs. i'm talking about a free pass. 
Zone running plays that leave the end free are something in their scheme.  That’s the situation where the RB needs to stay with the flow and get the shirt gain rather than try to bust a big play.  A perfect example was Hayden in the TCU game on his second carry. Had 4yds on the right side but cut back to the left into the pursuit trying to make a big play.  2yd loss and he was pulled for the day.  I don’t agree he shouldn’t have gone back in, but he should have been coached up and reminded to run the play as called. Cut back at the second level, not before you reach the designed hole.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on October 02, 2017, 07:22:43 am
Samantha Pittman??

Keep in mind that Sam Pittman recruited and landed Frank Ragnow.

Doubtful Kurt Anderson will land another Ragnow type of an Offensive Lineman.
Clenin will be that type of player.  The difference is Clenin is redshirting like every Olineman should be in an ideal situation. 
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 02, 2017, 08:14:16 am
What is wrong with the OL? The answer to that question is elementary my dear. Brian Wallace isn't playing right tackle.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 02, 2017, 06:16:22 pm
This is a great post. Let me ask you this, though. To my untrained eye, the offensive and defensive line as well as the receivers all seem to lack any SEC talent or speed with the past two recruiting classes aside from Agim and Ragnow. Nance went JUCO because no coach wanted him to play receiver and he looks most promising on this squad.   Do you see this improving under this staff? Recruiting and development, that is.


I wish I were in a position to have a better opinion on this. There is so much that many of us voice as being "truth" but not being able to be there in practice every day and seeing what these kids are doing and what they are being taught, it is difficult to make any informed judgement. Many get ticked when we say, "have to trust the staff", but who else are we going to trust? They either get it done or they don't. If they do, they'll be around a while longer. If they don't (for whatever reason), they won't. I know, it is a helpless feeling when you want to see these kids perform and for a variety of reasons that are unknown to us, they don't perform at as high of a level as we might hope. I do feel confident that it has nothing to do with desire. Every single one of these kids want to execute at the highest level possible.

On game day, this does not appear to be a Razorbacks team and does not appear to be an SEC team. They fail the eye test, both on the sideline and in the game, to me.



We say that, but this team isn't finished. I have confidence that the defense will get better most every game. Will they be "out-talented" in games against the likes of Alabama, Auburn and LSU? Sure, but obviously talent level isn't everything or else A&M would have blown our doors off and LSU wouldn't be looking the way that they are right now. That alone should be evident truth to all of us that it requires more than an enormous collection of talent. Even Ole Miss, who has had some great recruiting classes, was embarrassed by Alabama last weekend. It isn't just talent, it is the status of that equally important 6 inches between the ears and the amount of heart that a team possesses.

While your post was spot-on, it applies to all teams at all levels on any given season without taking into account this specific team and this specific coaching staff compared to previous seasons. Do you feel like recruiting and development are going to improve under this staff based on what we've seen in the past four and a half years?

I have no idea what is going to occur. Wish I did. If I could predict such things I would be royalty in Las Vegas. I know this, recruiting improves with wins. We have a built-in disadvantage in terms of recruiting which is why we have to go more "national" in recruiting. But this is the circumstance where wins are even more important to recruiting development. But again, it isn't all about talent. The "state of mind", the self imposed dedication and self discipline is a culture that is developed by the emphasis of the coaching staff, which is what we are getting from these players as influenced by this staff. But youth makes a player a little less disciplined until they learn the truth that the staff and the Sr. leadership is attempting to teach them. Often times they have to learn the hard way and the bigger the star in HS, sometimes the more difficult it is to teach at the college level. Instincts are important, but what they are accustomed to being able to do in HS, isn't going to always be as successful in the SEC. There is a learning curve, even for a kid who is a phenomenal athlete. The sooner they listen and learn, the sooner that they eclipse the "young player" mode.

Now are there also errors in coaching and schemes/game planning? Perhaps. We would have to be in staff meetings to understand the game plan and why they planned as they did and then what we actually see in games. Without having an opportunity to view and experience both on a first hand basis, it is far easier to look like a moron posting an opinion on a message board. And yes, like everyone else I have an opinion, but it isn't informed enough to be accurate since I am not privy to any of these meetings.

JMO
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GuvHog on October 02, 2017, 06:34:25 pm
What is wrong with the OL? The answer to that question is elementary my dear. Brian Wallace isn't playing right tackle.

Because he keeps getting the signals messed up and isn't getting it done in practice.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 02, 2017, 09:08:38 pm
No, I think that a lot of you feed off of each other and hyper-react. Nothing is as bad as some of you want to make it seem, it also isn't as good as some others might want to believe. We have work to do on the O-Line, but no one would be judging them so harshly if we had more experienced receivers who knew how to execute patterns and get open earlier. Then AA wouldn't be standing there waiting for them to break free because he wants to complete every throw.

In all but one game we have exceeded 200 yards rushing and after 4 games we are averaging 4.8 Yds/rush. That's not bad especially given the fact that Whaley is a young Soph. and still learning and Chase Hayden has very few snaps under his belt. Glad we have David. He's been an asset.

Still, we aren't perfect on the O-Line in pass pro, but as I have said before, half the Sacks that we have can't be attributed to the O-Line. RB's and TE's have missed on their pass pro and then AA is trying to wait until the last second to try to give the younger receivers a chance to get open. That leads to more hits on the QB. That's just how it is.

The defense is improved in many ways. They are more aggressive than last year but still not as consistently aggressive as we might like to see. I understand that, but they are 4 games into a new defensive scheme and still matriculating. You aren't going to see a refined product 4 games into a new scheme. In fact everyone on this board was discussing that every thing before the season started, yet here we are 4 games in and it has turned to, "woe is me, we suck".

And AA is a good QB but he is just doing the same thing that he did at the last part of last season, trying to put the whole team on his back and taking shots that he doesn't need to take. He's one of the best in the SEC if he can just learn to throw it away and live to play another play. Of course the receivers as a whole (not just 1, 2 or the occasional 3) need to get their act together and help out. That will open up the TE passing game and the run game even more.

So yeah, it's just my opinion but I think you are way off the mark along with anyone who thinks that way. We aren't that far from being a far better and more consistent team and if the defense can be just average, they will give us an opportunity to win 8 or 9 this year. But I will say that from a scheming standpoint on offense, we have to stop playing so conservative in the second half of games and continue to put the foot on the gas.

That's my two cents.

That's a good two cents!  Very good stuff.  Thank you for that.  Believe it or not, I hope you're right, and I'll bet that you ARE right.  I don't know as much as you, but I'll try to give you the best response I can from my perspective.  First and foremost, I don't know enough to have any suggestions of how to fix things.  I just know what I see.  If I am wrong about any of it, it won't surprise me, or hurt my feelings to be corrected.  Anyway, here's what I see:   

Offense:  I see an offensive line that routinely gets dominated on both ends and sometimes up the middle when pass blocking.  The line seems pretty good run blocking when it is not obvious that we are going to run the ball, but has GREAT difficulty gaining any yardage in obvious, or 'power rushing' attempts, and seems downright horrible at pass blocking.  Do I know how to fix those problems?  No.  No idea.  But I see the problems - and I'm pretty sure I'm right, because I saw it in game one, and it hasn't changed yet - not even Saturday against NMST.  Does that mean I disagree with your belief that it can be easily fixed? No.  I see no reason it can't change.  Receivers: I see receivers that are talented but don't seem to be running correct routes at times.  I don't know why that is, or even that I am certain that is the case.  I've just seen several balls thrown to spots where the receiver was NOT, and Allen clearly had expected a receiver to go there. QB:   I see a QB that seems VERY frustrated and is having a hard time dealing with the horrible protection and the incorrect route running, and who has a clear problem with forcing passes and throwing INT's.  It looks to me like the difficulties with the receivers and with pass blocking came as a TOTAL surprise to him, and he has been completely unprepared for it.   Was it unfair for me to simply say, "He's not a very good QB?"  Absolutely.   That's just a simple way to say something that is much more complex than that.  I think he would be an excellent college QB if he had good protection and a 'go to' receiver like he had last year.  But MOST QB's are great in those conditions.  A truly great QB can deal with adversity and perform much better than he is.  I also believe that the coaches somehow missed the problems we were going to have in the passing game and completely failed to prepare him for it.  I see them calling more and more screen passes and quicker routes, and believe they are doing what they can to fix that problem.  But, for whatever reason, I see a QB who is not playing well.  When I say he's not a good QB, that's what I mean.  Also, favoritism has been a problem for as long as I can remember at Arkansas.  I don't know that it still goes on, but I do suspect it.  Loved Brandon.  Think he was a great QB.  Am I being unfair to Austin?  Maybe.  But its what I see.  Do I hope he proves me wrong?  ABSOLUTELY.

Defense:  Our D last year was horrible.  Simply horrible.  It has been addressed by BB and I like the changes.  But we are new to the 3-4 and problems are to be expected.  I see an improved defense.  No question.  But we are thin in some key positions, and... I just don't know.  I expect continued improvement throughout the season, but I don't expect to have a very good defense at any time this year.  I don't really hold that against BB.  Actually, I credit him for addressing it and I believe it is being fixed, and that it WILL be fixed.

Special teams:  All I know is what I see.  All my life, the coaches who value special teams equally to offense and defense ... win.  Jimmy Johnson is primary example.  Coaches who do not emphasize special teams ..lose.  It seems to me that BB does not place importance on special teams and it has bitten him, HARD.  With decent special teams we could have had a magical season two years ago (my memory stinks, but I think 2015 - and even last year could have been really good).   Maybe BB has just had some rotten luck...maybe, but I don't think so.  I haven't noticed us ever having a real threat as a returner.  I see poor kickoffs and sometimes poor coverage.  Placekicking has been a nightmare.  Punting has been really good, but that's it.  How do you fix it?  All I can suggest is to realize that ST are just as important as offense and actually emphasize excelling at ST's.  Other than that, I have no idea.  I'm no coach.  Its just what I see.

I like BB very much.  I am proud to have him as our coach, and VERY MUCH want him to succeed.  But all I know is what I see, and I see him failing on the field.  I don't know why, or how to fix things, but I DO believe he can fix it, and that he will.  What drives me nuts is people pretending these problems don't exist.  They do.  If I can see it, anyone can.  I don't really expect much.  All I want is a respectable coach who does things right, and who fields a competitive, well coached team.  Kenny Hatfield could be my coach forever.  So can BB, if he just fixes the problems and becomes truly competitive.

Hope you like my response, MHF.  I put a little effort into it for once, just for you.  But like I said, I don't know as much as you, and its just what I see and what I think.  You are a great poster and good guy, and deserve better responses than what I've given.  The rest of em, the nitwits, can sit and spin for all I care.   Sorry I twisted off on you the other day.  Was just frustrated.   
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 02, 2017, 09:25:16 pm
But all I know is what I see, and I see him failing on the field.

The opinion on whether or not he can fix the "complete product" is the question in debate. People on both sides of that fence right now.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 02, 2017, 09:44:59 pm
The opinion on whether or not he can fix the "complete product" is the question in debate. People on both sides of that fence right now.

Right.  As for me, I guess I'm on that fence.  I didn't expect these problems, and don't understand how they can be so glaring and yet so ... unaddressed.
Part of me says, "It is what it is, and he's created it, so why expect that he can fix it.?"   But there's something nagging at me, telling me that he CAN fix it, and will.  I don't know what it is, or why.  Maybe its just that I like him so much, or maybe its something that I've seen over and over in life - that those people who are determined to succeed and never give up, in time, usually do.  I've also learned to stop and listen to my gut feelings (wish I had learned that much earlier in life), and my gut says that BB is going to succeed. Despite all my B'ing and moaning, and everything I see, I guess I just believe in the guy.  Hope I'm wrong about what I see and think, and right about what I feel.  We'll see, because there's no way Long will ever fire him before the end of next season.  He can't.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 02, 2017, 09:50:28 pm
Right.  As for me, I guess I'm on that fence.  I didn't expect these problems, and don't understand how they can be so glaring and yet so ... unaddressed.
Part of me says, "It is what it is, and he's created it, so why expect that he can fix it.?"   But there's something nagging at me, telling me that he CAN fix it, and will.  I don't know what it is, or why.  Maybe its just that I like him so much, or maybe its something that I've seen over and over in life - that those people who are determined to succeed and never give up, in time, usually do.  I've also learned to stop and listen to my gut feelings (wish I had learned that much earlier in life), and my gut says that BB is going to succeed. Despite all my B'ing and moaning, and everything I see, I guess I just believe in the guy.  Hope I'm wrong about what I see and think, and right about what I feel.  We'll see, because there's no way Long will ever fire him before the end of next season.  He can't.

It seems that his preparation isn't sufficient for the speed and physicality of his upcoming schedule and that he requires a few games in order to get all the pieces together. The slow start problems we have is primarily the reason I'm kinda falling into the "won't be sad to see him go" side-of the fence and the reason I don't think he'll ever win the west during his time here (record against Alabama notwithstanding). 

Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: 31to6 on October 02, 2017, 09:58:39 pm
The slow start problems we have is primarily the reason I'm kinda falling into the "won't be sad to see him go" side-of the fence and the reason I don't think he'll ever win the west during his time here (record against Alabama notwithstanding). 
The slow starts have been a thing at Arkansas for a long time. That is because, unlike much of our SEC brethren, we can't roll a ball out on the field in week one and count on superior athleticism to save the day.

The NCAA reduction in practice time hurts a program like ours much, MUCH, more than a 'bama or an Auburn, who have 5 stars backing up 5 stars.

The recipe to solve that is *supposed to be* stability, development, a solid redshirt program, leveraging walkons, great evaluation, and so on. But it is still a disadvantage.

That being said, we don't have to have a team that goes 5-0 to win the SEC. If we can build a team that can sneak up on Alabama by week 6 we can win the SEC-W with a little help. Honestly, if we drop aTm in week 3 but then run the table, what are the odds that the Aggies can hold their water in November?

Exactly.

So the slow starts are why I am not screaming for us to play an elite team weak one. That has never worked well. It is who we are. We need a little time.

But we have to get the real big problems fixed. In year 5 we should be starting RS-JR's who eat 280 lb defensive ends for breakfast at on the OL. Instead, we have a true frosh walk on. Our misses in recruiting and development have broken the formula.

Maybe CBB needs to crawl across a field of broken glass and ask his mentor, Barry, to help him build an SEC team?

IDK.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 02, 2017, 10:01:00 pm
It seems that his preparation isn't sufficient for the speed and physicality of his upcoming schedule and that he requires a few games in order to get all the pieces together. The slow start problems we have is primarily the reason I'm kinda falling into the "won't be sad to see him go" side-of the fence and the reason I don't think he'll ever win the west during his time here (record against Alabama notwithstanding). 



Do you think there is an ego issue at play here?  I could understand that.  Great success at Wisconsin, getting a little bit of the big head, plus underestimating the task at hand at Arkansas = Failing to recognize some of his own shortcomings?   Probably wishful thinking on my part, but maybe, getting slapped around a little, and feeling the heat from the fans, might get him on the right track?   
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 02, 2017, 10:07:56 pm
The slow starts have been a thing at Arkansas for a long time. That is because, unlike much of our SEC brethren, we can't roll a ball out on the field in week one and count on superior athleticism to save the day.

The NCAA reduction in practice time hurts a program like ours much, MUCH, more than a 'bama or an Auburn, who have 5 stars backing up 5 stars.


The recipe to solve that is *supposed to be* stability, development, a solid redshirt program, leveraging walkons, great evaluation, and so on. But it is still a disadvantage.

That being said, we don't have to have a team that goes 5-0 to win the SEC. If we can build a team that can sneak up on Alabama by week 6 we can win the SEC-W with a little help. Honestly, if we drop aTm in week 3 but then run the table, what are the odds that the Aggies can hold their water in November?

Exactly.

So the slow starts are why I am not screaming for us to play an elite team weak one. That has never worked well. It is who we are. We need a little time.

But we have to get the real big problems fixed. In year 5 we should be starting RS-JR's who eat 280 lb defensive ends for breakfast at on the OL. Instead, we have a true frosh walk on. Our misses in recruiting and development have broken the formula.

Maybe CBB needs to crawl across a field of broken glass and ask his mentor, Barry, to help him build an SEC team?

IDK.

Great points.  Forget Kenny.  31to6 for AD.  Has a nice ring to it.  Somehow makes me think of ... Roland Sales.  hmmm
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: secfan30 on October 02, 2017, 10:10:20 pm
You might find this amusing.  HOGVILLE is a much bigger deal than any of us know.  We sat in the front row yesterday behind the bench.  Ragnow got called for holding.  All-American, future first round draft pick, Frank Ragnow.  Some guy a few row behind us started screaming, “Get 72 out of there!” “He sucks!” “”Can’t play worth a #%*#”
I heard a player on the sideline shout “King of HOGVILLE is in the house!” and a handful of players laugh.  That pretty much sums up how important any of us are.

Sounds like Hogville is more of a joke than a "big deal".
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: 31to6 on October 02, 2017, 10:12:32 pm
Do you think there is an ego issue at play here?  I could understand that.  Great success at Wisconsin, getting a little bit of the big head, plus underestimating the task at hand at Arkansas = Failing to recognize some of his own shortcomings?   Probably wishful thinking on my part, but maybe, getting slapped around a little, and feeling the heat from the fans, might get him on the right track?   
Positive spin:

Instead of not recognizing our shortcomings, is it a problem of not seeing our strengths? Is this a case of the staff not recognizing Arkansas' strengths???

Should we stop trying to be as big as 'bama and start letting players play at their natural size/speed?

Should the staff balance recruiting toward athleticism and away from GPA? I like the focus on character, but, on some level, a kid barely passing and with a bordeline ACT from SE arkansas might be as smart as a 3.0 GPA guy from Texas--he just has none of the academic support at his school that a texas athlete gets at a some Dallas metro magnet school that recruited him for football. Is that a character problem or an resource we are not tapping?

We could win with:

1) underrated, but fast, aggressive, chip-on-the-shoulder talent on defense and special teams
2) whoever Warren spits out at WR.
3) a high risk offense

??
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 02, 2017, 10:16:05 pm
Sounds like Hogville is more of a joke than a "big deal".

That's what Houston Nutt thought!  :)


Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 02, 2017, 10:17:36 pm
The slow starts have been a thing at Arkansas for a long time. That is because, unlike much of our SEC brethren, we can't roll a ball out on the field in week one and count on superior athleticism to save the day.

The NCAA reduction in practice time hurts a program like ours much, MUCH, more than a 'bama or an Auburn, who have 5 stars backing up 5 stars.

The recipe to solve that is *supposed to be* stability, development, a solid redshirt program, leveraging walkons, great evaluation, and so on. But it is still a disadvantage.

That being said, we don't have to have a team that goes 5-0 to win the SEC. If we can build a team that can sneak up on Alabama by week 6 we can win the SEC-W with a little help. Honestly, if we drop aTm in week 3 but then run the table, what are the odds that the Aggies can hold their water in November?

Exactly.

So the slow starts are why I am not screaming for us to play an elite team week one. That has never worked well. It is who we are. We need a little time.

But we have to get the real big problems fixed. In year 5 we should be starting RS-JR's who eat 280 lb defensive ends for breakfast at on the OL. Instead, we have a true frosh walk on. Our misses in recruiting and development have broken the formula.

Maybe CBB needs to crawl across a field of broken glass and ask his mentor, Barry, to help him build an SEC team?

IDK.
We have definitely wiffed on some OL recruits, which should put the coaching staff on EMERGENCY MODE. Our lack of production at Tackle is disgusting. Non performers seem to stay on the team for four years. It builds depth with upperclassmen on the 2-deep but they aren't really playing any meaningful snaps against conference opponents.

Let me ask this though, and I'm serious as a heart attack. Are our spring and fall camp deficiencies and slow starts somehow and our inability of getting these highly rated recruits ready to contribute at the top of the depth roster somehow the results of the same problem? If they are slow at getting the team ready to play their schedule, why wouldn't they be slow at coaching and developing talent.

I think there may be some truth to the Alvarez thing, maybe not on it's face, but certainly Bret would have to explain how they were fixing glaring problems during the season.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: What's Shakin' Macon on October 03, 2017, 02:11:13 am
This is the first time I've looked back at the thread, but just wanted to say there were some great responses.

I don't think there's any way BB is playing his personal favorites, but it's certainly a confounding situation. If BB is choosing guys like Clary b/c they do the right things off the field, then the difference between him and the 4 stars on the field must be pretty negligible to begin with. 
Sounds like Pittman and poor evals are a big part of it.

I'm not sure why it's so incredibly difficult for us to find a reliable kicker and I'm not sure what's wrong with Hedlund, but I don't want to see him kick for us ever again.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 03, 2017, 05:28:52 am
That's a good two cents!  Very good stuff.  Thank you for that.  Believe it or not, I hope you're right, and I'll bet that you ARE right.  I don't know as much as you, but I'll try to give you the best response I can from my perspective.  First and foremost, I don't know enough to have any suggestions of how to fix things.  I just know what I see.  If I am wrong about any of it, it won't surprise me, or hurt my feelings to be corrected.  Anyway, here's what I see:   

Offense:  I see an offensive line that routinely gets dominated on both ends and sometimes up the middle when pass blocking.  The line seems pretty good run blocking when it is not obvious that we are going to run the ball, but has GREAT difficulty gaining any yardage in obvious, or 'power rushing' attempts, and seems downright horrible at pass blocking.  Do I know how to fix those problems?  No.  No idea.  But I see the problems - and I'm pretty sure I'm right, because I saw it in game one, and it hasn't changed yet - not even Saturday against NMST.  Does that mean I disagree with your belief that it can be easily fixed? No.  I see no reason it can't change.  Receivers: I see receivers that are talented but don't seem to be running correct routes at times.  I don't know why that is, or even that I am certain that is the case.  I've just seen several balls thrown to spots where the receiver was NOT, and Allen clearly had expected a receiver to go there. QB:   I see a QB that seems VERY frustrated and is having a hard time dealing with the horrible protection and the incorrect route running, and who has a clear problem with forcing passes and throwing INT's.  It looks to me like the difficulties with the receivers and with pass blocking came as a TOTAL surprise to him, and he has been completely unprepared for it.   Was it unfair for me to simply say, "He's not a very good QB?"  Absolutely.   That's just a simple way to say something that is much more complex than that.  I think he would be an excellent college QB if he had good protection and a 'go to' receiver like he had last year.  But MOST QB's are great in those conditions.  A truly great QB can deal with adversity and perform much better than he is.  I also believe that the coaches somehow missed the problems we were going to have in the passing game and completely failed to prepare him for it.  I see them calling more and more screen passes and quicker routes, and believe they are doing what they can to fix that problem.  But, for whatever reason, I see a QB who is not playing well.  When I say he's not a good QB, that's what I mean.  Also, favoritism has been a problem for as long as I can remember at Arkansas.  I don't know that it still goes on, but I do suspect it.  Loved Brandon.  Think he was a great QB.  Am I being unfair to Austin?  Maybe.  But its what I see.  Do I hope he proves me wrong?  ABSOLUTELY.

Defense:  Our D last year was horrible.  Simply horrible.  It has been addressed by BB and I like the changes.  But we are new to the 3-4 and problems are to be expected.  I see an improved defense.  No question.  But we are thin in some key positions, and... I just don't know.  I expect continued improvement throughout the season, but I don't expect to have a very good defense at any time this year.  I don't really hold that against BB.  Actually, I credit him for addressing it and I believe it is being fixed, and that it WILL be fixed.

Special teams:  All I know is what I see.  All my life, the coaches who value special teams equally to offense and defense ... win.  Jimmy Johnson is primary example.  Coaches who do not emphasize special teams ..lose.  It seems to me that BB does not place importance on special teams and it has bitten him, HARD.  With decent special teams we could have had a magical season two years ago (my memory stinks, but I think 2015 - and even last year could have been really good).   Maybe BB has just had some rotten luck...maybe, but I don't think so.  I haven't noticed us ever having a real threat as a returner.  I see poor kickoffs and sometimes poor coverage.  Placekicking has been a nightmare.  Punting has been really good, but that's it.  How do you fix it?  All I can suggest is to realize that ST are just as important as offense and actually emphasize excelling at ST's.  Other than that, I have no idea.  I'm no coach.  Its just what I see.

I like BB very much.  I am proud to have him as our coach, and VERY MUCH want him to succeed.  But all I know is what I see, and I see him failing on the field.  I don't know why, or how to fix things, but I DO believe he can fix it, and that he will.  What drives me nuts is people pretending these problems don't exist.  They do.  If I can see it, anyone can.  I don't really expect much.  All I want is a respectable coach who does things right, and who fields a competitive, well coached team.  Kenny Hatfield could be my coach forever.  So can BB, if he just fixes the problems and becomes truly competitive.

Hope you like my response, MHF.  I put a little effort into it for once, just for you.  But like I said, I don't know as much as you, and its just what I see and what I think.  You are a great poster and good guy, and deserve better responses than what I've given.  The rest of em, the nitwits, can sit and spin for all I care.   Sorry I twisted off on you the other day.  Was just frustrated.   

Thanks for the well thought out response. I wish we could all have more civil discussions like this on here even if we do disagree at times.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Jonbo on October 03, 2017, 06:02:36 am
Thanks for the well thought out response. I wish we could all have more civil discussions like this on here even if we do disagree at times.
I agree. MSG's posts in this thread have been the most measured and mature while providing good analysis that I've seen on this site since the season began.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on October 03, 2017, 06:37:19 am
As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 

Wow another OL thread started. What will they think of next?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Piggfoot on October 03, 2017, 08:34:54 am
Well Pittman not signing one legit OT is a good start.  Choosing a 4* Hawaiian that never played a down in 4 years over Stockton Mallett who has become an All-American at UCA also points to the staff not being as astute in talent evals as we were led to believe they are.

Another issue is the Strength & Conditioning program may the biggest fraud that Bielema has committed against the citizens of Arkansas and their tax dollars.  Look up Jared Cornelius' 247 profile, look at his face from his Sr. year to his Jr. year here photos. He has put on 40 lbs.  That's not what you want w/ your skill players. Herb fattens up the players like they're cattle at a finishing lot. He's making them bulky and slow. There are way too many players with double chins, fat faces and smooth arms.  Look at rosters around the league, our opponents rosters are full of big guys that look how elite athletes should look. It's a reasonable explanation why we always gas out and wilt away in the 2nd half.

There's also not enough nastiness and desire to win/be the best.  Too much hero worship for just being a Razorback and not enough that are out there willing to put in the extra work to earn it.  They simply do not work hard enough and if you want some great technical analysis research Geoff Schwartz and read up on some of his articles. There are issues w/ the stances and first steps out of the stance with our OL and everything snowballs badly from there.
I think this is a good assessment. I'm not throwing all the blame on Anderson for now. Players taught one thing or too poor or unable to play as taught is one thing.
If you learn something wrong and try to change, it takes time to get out of bad habits.
I do know our Tackles are not quick enough to get in the way of rushing ends.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 03, 2017, 06:56:16 pm
As far as recruiting and the OT's go, here are the most current (that I could find) rankings of college LT's according to Walter Football for the 2018 NFL Draft. I can't speak for their accuracy or anything else, but this gives you an idea of where they came from, their ranking as a player according to 247 Sports and their size when signed. Is there a difference in what we are recruiting? Not on the surface anyway.

Trey Adams*, LT, Washington Height: 6-7. Weight: 302. Projected 40 Time: 5.32.
Projected Round (2018): 1. (Home: Wenatchee, WA- 4 star 6-7. 270)

Connor Williams*, LT, Texas Height: 6-6. Weight: 290. Projected 40 Time: 5.10.
Projected Round (2018): 1. (Home: Coppell, TX-3 star 6-5, 275)

Mike McGlinchey, LT, Notre Dame Height: 6-7. Weight: 310. Projected 40 Time: 5.30.
Projected Round (2018): 1. (Home: Philadelphia, PA-4 star 6-9, 275)

Martinas Rankin, LT, Mississippi State Height: 6-5. Weight: 307. Projected 40 Time: 5.20.
Projected Round (2018): 1-2. (Home: Miss Gulf Coast CC-4 star, 6-5, 300)

Martez Ivey*, LT, Florida Height: 6-5. Weight: 305. Projected 40 Time: 5.15.
Projected Round (2018): 2-3.  (Home: Apopka, FL-5 star, 6-5, 275)

Jamarco Jones, LT, Ohio State Height: 6-5. Weight: 310. Projected 40 Time: 5.20.
Projected Round (2018): 2-3. (Home: Chicago, IL-4 star, 6-5, 290)

Mitch Hyatt*, LT, Clemson Height: 6-5. Weight: 295. Projected 40 Time: 5.12.
Projected Round (2018): 2-4. (Home: Sewanee, GA-5 star, 6-5, 272)

Orlando Brown*, LT, Oklahoma Height: 6-8. Weight: 360. Projected 40 Time: 5.45.
Projected Round (2018): 2-4. (Home: Sewanee, GA-3 star, 6-8, 338)

Tyrell Crosby, LT, Oregon Height: 6-5. Weight: 310. Projected 40 Time: 5.28.
Projected Round (2018): 3-4. (Home: Henderson, NV-3 star, 6-5, 290)

Timon Parris, LT, Stony Brook Height: 6-5. Weight: 310. Projected 40 Time: 5.10.
Projected Round (2018): 3-5. (Home: Floral Park, NY-NR, 6-5, 320)

Bentley Spain, LT, North Carolina Height: 6-6. Weight: 300. Projected 40 Time: 5.09.
Projected Round (2018): 3-5. (Home: Charlotte, NC-4 star, 6-6, 275)

Geron Christian*, LT, Louisville Height: 6-6. Weight: 314. Projected 40 Time: 5.40.
Projected Round (2018): 4-6. (Home: Ocala, FL-3 star, 6-4, 305)

K.C. McDermott, LT, Miami Height: 6-6. Weight: 310. Projected 40 Time: 5.29.
Projected Round (2018): 5-7. (Home: Palm Beach, FL-4 star, 6-6, 300)

https://walterfootball.com/draft2018OT.php
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 03, 2017, 08:44:41 pm
So it's fair to say that it is kinda rare that a walk-on or unranked player will make the draft board. More likely that a 5-4-3 star linemen will be drafted high.

If it were all that common, then there would be a Brandon Burlsworth every two or three years.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 03, 2017, 08:55:12 pm
So it's fair to say that it is kinda rare that a walk-on or unranked player will make the draft board. More likely that a 5-4-3 star linemen will be drafted high.

If it were all that common, then there would be a Brandon Burlsworth every two or three years.

Check out Timon Parris of Stoney Brook above. A nobody from nowhere, yet a projected draft choice at LT. But yes, though it happens, it is probably more rare than not.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 03, 2017, 09:10:27 pm
Check out Timon Parris of Stoney Brook above. A nobody from nowhere, yet a projected draft choice at LT. But yes, though it happens, it is probably more rare than not.

But to think that we have somehow broken the code with respect to identifying walk-on talent that has been completely overlooked by everyone in Division 1 football gives way to much credit to the staff thus far. Arguably his most productive walk-on in his Arkansas tenure is Randy Ramsey (walk-on the second time he came here), then I'd go with Johnny Gibson.

Lots a good players come from small schools. Jerry Rice from MVSU, Scottie Pippen from UCA etc etc... They had the skills but became physically matured while attending a small college to become 1st round picks. It's so rare that it's virtually impossible to identify those types of people.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 03, 2017, 09:41:53 pm
Arguably his most productive walk-on in his Arkansas tenure is Randy Ramsey (walk-on the second time he came here), then I'd go with Johnny Gibson.

AJ Derby is the most productive walk-on Bielema has had.  Derby was a 4 star out of high school but he went JUCO after failing at Iowa then walked on here.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 03, 2017, 09:43:58 pm
AJ Derby is the most productive walk-on Bielema has had.  Derby was a 4 star out of high school but he went JUCO after failing at Iowa then walked on here.

forgot about Derby. He was a serviceable TE his senior year.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: factchecker on October 03, 2017, 09:46:16 pm
forgot about Derby. He was a serviceable TE his senior year.

"Serviceable" is a laughable statement.  Derby was legit.


The only reason his numbers weren't higher was because he was competing for reps with a Mackey award winner.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on October 03, 2017, 09:51:03 pm
"Serviceable" is a laughable statement.  Derby was legit.


The only reason his numbers weren't higher was because he was competing for reps with a Mackey award winner.

He was our blocking TE. Similar to Sprinkle the next year. Playing across from a Mackey Award winner.

Absolutely. He was serviceable. Had potential to be more than he was, but he wasn't.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 04, 2017, 05:31:19 am
But to think that we have somehow broken the code with respect to identifying walk-on talent that has been completely overlooked by everyone in Division 1 football gives way to much credit to the staff thus far. Arguably his most productive walk-on in his Arkansas tenure is Randy Ramsey (walk-on the second time he came here), then I'd go with Johnny Gibson.

Lots a good players come from small schools. Jerry Rice from MVSU, Scottie Pippen from UCA etc etc... They had the skills but became physically matured while attending a small college to become 1st round picks. It's so rare that it's virtually impossible to identify those types of people.

Ramsey isn't really a true walk-on, so I can't count him. Clary was/is a scholarship player, his scholarship was just set back for a time for our convenience. Gibson would be a true walk on.

And no, I don't think that we have broken any code with regard to finding overlooked talent, though I do think that some programs are more open to a good walk on program than others and frankly, we are one of those programs that should be.

So what do we have in that list above? 2-5 stars, 6-4 stars, 4-3stars and 1 unrated player coming out of high school. Of course we have to assume that list isn't all-inclusive. I'm sure there are other LT's out there that may be every bit as good as these guys, but that is at least, an example.

In 2015 247 Sports had 340 OT's ranked in that class. Colton Jackson was #65 on that list. In 2014 they had 297 OT's ranked. #8 on that list was Brian Wallace. #25 on that list was Frank Ragnow. #30 was Jovan Pruitt. It appears that in 2014 they were targeting more highly ranked talent. Pruitt never made it to campus, that hurt the numbers game. Ragnow has turned out to be a great player for us and as talented as he is, we are still waiting for Wallace to take the RT position.

https://247sports.com/Season/2014-Football/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&Position=OT
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 04, 2017, 08:23:55 am

Remember 4 starters returned from this OL.
Wallace looked damn good on that video. He did get beat on the spin move once though ;D.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 04, 2017, 08:26:46 am
Here is a gif I found of Clary blocking in the 3rd qtr.

Toss right to David Williams.

Clary chips the one technique (or shade - it's hard to tell from the angle) and works to the linebacker.

Cantrell and Clary get pancakes.

(https://j.gifs.com/g51xjj.gif)
Not hard to pancake a linebacker if you're 80 pounds heavier than them. That's what you're supposed to and should do. Not knocking the kid, just saying.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 04, 2017, 08:34:30 am
Because he keeps getting the signals messed up and isn't getting it done in practice.
Was he getting the signals messed up last year? Then maybe we should dumb the system down a bit to get the most talented players on the field? And I'm guessing Ramirez and Clary are doing everything perfect ???.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: DeltaBoy on October 04, 2017, 08:37:24 am
They need to get it FIXED .
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: azhog10 on October 04, 2017, 08:42:35 am
It's a distinction when discussing scholarship numbers and recruiting.  But during the season, if you're playing without a scholarship, you are a walk-on.  There's just not any wiggle room there.  It is what it is.
Not to mention Gibson is a former walkon. So one walkon, one former walkon, and one converted Dlineman.....yep over half our OLine are guys that either weren't recruited heavily at all, or weren't recruited to be an OLineman......yet all that talent on our bench.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: GuvHog on October 04, 2017, 08:56:22 am
Not to mention Gibson is a former walkon. So one walkon, one former walkon, and one converted Dlineman.....yep over half our OLine are guys that either weren't recruited heavily at all, or weren't recruited to be an OLineman......yet all that talent on our bench.

If the talent on the bench was getting the job done, they wouldn't BE on the bench.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: GuvHog on October 04, 2017, 09:02:39 am
Was he getting the signals messed up last year? Then maybe we should dumb the system down a bit to get the most talented players on the field? And I'm guessing Ramirez and Clary are doing everything perfect ???.

There was a reason they had to have a speaker placed in Wallace's helmet during preseason practice. He was getting the signals mixed up. That's why he isn't starting. the problem isn't the system, it's Wallace. I'm sure he's trying hard but he just can't get the signals right.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PLHawg on October 04, 2017, 10:51:10 am
Has anyone given consideration to the possibility that maybe our offensive scheme is too complicated for some of our OL to get a handle on?  How many of our offensive linemen played in a pro style scheme in HS?  I would venture to guess not many, most played in a spread. Just as having to train a spread QB to run our offense, it takes OL two to three years to get this thing figured out. We've got third year 4* linemen that can't figure it out, but have true freshmen in there?  I call this the definition of absolute madness.  CBB is hell-bent-for-leather on running a pro style offense, but he never really has the recruits to run it effectively.  Seriously, who in college still has the QB do the five step drop back, besides us that is?  The only way this will get fixed is to overhaul the offensive scheme, and the only way that's gonna happen is when CBB is no longer here.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: HF#1 on October 04, 2017, 11:09:47 am
The Hoganese isn't working.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: KennyForAD on October 04, 2017, 11:35:15 am
Wow another OL thread started. What will they think of next?

If there was one thing that everyone expected to have under BB, it was a powerful OL.  But somehow, the unit that everyone who follows college football expected to be the cornerstone of our team has turned out to be our biggest weakness.  Not only is it the weakest unit on our team, it is, without question, among the worst OL's in college football. It is no stretch at all to say that our OL is THE worst in major college football.   In 'goal line' situations, we are dead last in average yards gained rushing the football, in the entire P5.  Think about that. Every single doormat you can name in the P5 (Kansas, Vandy, Iowa Freaking State) is BETTER at punching it in from the one yard line than the Hogs. 

That would be hard to swallow, even if the OL were great at pass protection, but it isn't.  Pass protection is horrific.  In obvious passing downs, we typically allow a 'jailbreak' pass rush.  We make every defensive end we face look like Charles Haley - and we haven't exactly been playing the likes of Bama or Clemson.  TAMU played 18 true freshmen and DOMINATED our OL on pass plays. 

If you can't understand why the puzzling disaster of the Razorback OL is such a hot topic on a Razorback message board, then what can I say?  Do you stand in the rain and wonder why you're wet?  Do you go to horse barns and yell at the horses because you smell manure?  No.  You understand exactly why the OL is the hot topic.  I'll bet that you just don't like it because you see it as the 'coach haters' making a good point, and there is no way that you can defend BB's Oline disaster against the haters.   I get that.  Its understandable.  The 'coach haters' are a freaking nuisance, and it will really suck if they turn out to be right.  But you 'worshipers' don't realize that you are every bit as annoying, if not worse.  Friendly suggestion:  Drop the agenda and just be real.  Those of us who already are real and don't share in EITHER of your agendas would really appreciate it.

Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: jkstock04 on October 04, 2017, 11:41:59 am
If there was one thing that everyone expected to have under BB, it was a powerful OL.  But somehow, the unit that everyone who follows college football expected to be the cornerstone of our team has turned out to be our biggest weakness.  Not only is it the weakest unit on our team, it is, without question, among the worst OL's in college football. It is no stretch at all to say that our OL is THE worst in major college football.   In 'goal line' situations, we are dead last in average yards gained rushing the football, in the entire P5.  Think about that. Every single doormat you can name in the P5 (Kansas, Vandy, Iowa Freaking State) is BETTER at punching it in from the one yard line than the Hogs. 

That would be hard to swallow, even if the OL was great at pass protection, but it isn't.  Pass protection is horrific.  In obvious passing downs, we typically allow a 'jailbreak' pass rush.  We make every defensive end we face look like Charles Haley - and we haven't exactly been playing the likes of Bama or Clemson.  TAMU played 18 true freshmen and DOMINATED our OL on pass plays. 

If you can't understand why the puzzling disaster of the Razorback OL is such a hot topic on a Razorback message board, then what can I say?  Do you stand in the rain and wonder why you're wet?  Do you go to horse barns and yell at the horses because you smell manure?  No.  You understand exactly why the OL is the hot topic.  I'll bet that you just don't like it because the 'coach haters' are making a good point, and there is no way that you can defend BB's Oline disaster.   I get that.  Its understandable.  The 'coach haters' are a freaking nuisance, and it will really suck if they turn out to be right.  But you 'worshipers' don't realize that you are every bit as annoying, if not worse.  Friendly suggestion:  Drop the agenda and just be real.


O-line has been the biggest disappointment of the Bielema era. For him to be successful here similar to what he did at Wisconsin...he has to have dominant O-line play. Not just good but absolutely wreck shop nasty and dominant. We haven't sniffed that, and it's disappointing. You will hear spin about how great they are "grading out" but I don't buy it. I believe what my eyes tell me.

+1 on the Charles Haley reference...one of my all time favorite NFL players.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 04, 2017, 03:56:48 pm
There was a reason they had to have a speaker placed in Wallace's helmet during preseason practice. He was getting the signals mixed up. That's why he isn't starting. the problem isn't the system, it's Wallace. I'm sure he's trying hard but he just can't get the signals right.
Ok, well answer this then. Why was he smart enough to start last year but not this year? Did he get dumber over night?
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Letsroll1200 on October 04, 2017, 04:07:15 pm
Ok, well answer this then. Why was he smart enough to start last year but not this year? Did he get dumber over night?

I'm waiting for this one!
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: PorkSoda on October 04, 2017, 04:08:35 pm
Ok, well answer this then. Why was he smart enough to start last year but not this year? Did he get dumber over night?
I'm not an insider, but if I was to speculate, someone involved in personnel decisions does like him for some reason.  thus playing less talented players and not letting him on the field.  nit picking Wallace, while giving other players the benefit of the doubt. 

I think KA's comments basically demonstrate that.

Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 04, 2017, 05:36:20 pm
Ok, well answer this then. Why was he smart enough to start last year but not this year? Did he get dumber over night?

None of us have inside information here aside from FOTH and he isn't likely to comment on this...too much class. It seems that some don't understand that some players evolve and develop at a higher rate than others. It's quite possible that the explanation is as simple as Wallace performed better last year than he is this year, but then that would spur all kinds of conspiracy theories that are likely, unfounded. How could that possibly happen? It just happens. It shouldn't, but it does nonetheless. Some players PRO-gress while others RE-gress. It happens.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: lakecityhog on October 04, 2017, 07:11:22 pm
Muskee, I could maybe agree with you IF Wallace was seeing the field AT ALL. He went from a 10 game starter to at best #8??? Think about this, he isn't even on the punt or XP team!!

Are you seriously going to try to tell me that he has "regressed" to the point of not even making the XP line? There simply has to be something going on behind the curtain to explain that level of drop.

And the real truth is that the easiest fix for our O'Line problems don't even have to involve Wallace!!! Move Ragnow to RT, Gibson back to his natural position of RG and Rogers becomes the center. Rogers was the #32 center coming out of HS, oh wait! Don't tell me, we missed on him too, right???

Our O'Line problems are just like our Kickoff problems and our defense problems, all can be summed up with 1 word STUBBORNESS!!!!!  BB is too stubborn to admit that his decisions might be wrong and therefore he refuses to give Wallace a fair chance, actually try to kick the ball into the endzone and take more chances on defense by being more aggressive!!!
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Letsroll1200 on October 04, 2017, 09:17:35 pm
None of us have inside information here aside from FOTH and he isn't likely to comment on this...too much class. It seems that some don't understand that some players evolve and develop at a higher rate than others. It's quite possible that the explanation is as simple as Wallace performed better last year than he is this year, but then that would spur all kinds of conspiracy theories that are likely, unfounded. How could that possibly happen? It just happens. It shouldn't, but it does nonetheless. Some players PRO-gress while others RE-gress. It happens.

Some lineman get the opportunity to play through their shortcomings (Froholdt, Clary and Ramirez) and others dont. Just happens. Uncommon
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: What's Shakin' Macon on October 04, 2017, 11:24:23 pm
I’ll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there’s a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
It was NMSU and in your hurry to post stats, you didn't notice this thread was created a month ago. So yes, you exhibited a great deal of brilliance there as well.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 05, 2017, 05:26:49 am
Muskee, I could maybe agree with you IF Wallace was seeing the field AT ALL. He went from a 10 game starter to at best #8??? Think about this, he isn't even on the punt or XP team!!

Are you seriously going to try to tell me that he has "regressed" to the point of not even making the XP line? There simply has to be something going on behind the curtain to explain that level of drop.

And the real truth is that the easiest fix for our O'Line problems don't even have to involve Wallace!!! Move Ragnow to RT, Gibson back to his natural position of RG and Rogers becomes the center. Rogers was the #32 center coming out of HS, oh wait! Don't tell me, we missed on him too, right???

Our O'Line problems are just like our Kickoff problems and our defense problems, all can be summed up with 1 word STUBBORNESS!!!!!  BB is too stubborn to admit that his decisions might be wrong and therefore he refuses to give Wallace a fair chance, actually try to kick the ball into the endzone and take more chances on defense by being more aggressive!!!

Well again, everything is just speculation and assumption unless you and I are given unlimited access to practice and staff and position meetings where we could see what is and isn't being accomplished.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 05, 2017, 10:02:02 am
I’ll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there’s a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Even though there we 0 sacks Austin still got blasted 8 times and knocked on his ass numerous other times. It all adds up my friend.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 05, 2017, 10:02:48 am
Well again, everything is just speculation and assumption unless you and I are given unlimited access to practice and staff and position meetings where we could see what is and isn't being accomplished.
Maybe we need to hire an inside man ;)?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: PolishPigPower on October 05, 2017, 10:10:36 am
I'm not an O-line expert and never played the position, but what stands out to me are the tight splits in the line.  HDN and MikeyMarkuson had gotten their O-line splits exceptionally tight toward the end of their time here.  Should lend a hand to the run game, but typically causes pass blocking to be more difficult.  The similarities are starting to show.

I think the issues start with coaching, and that we can't understate how problems on the O-line ripple thru the rest of the team.  It's amazing how an average QB can become an All-American when he has a day and a half to throw, and how an average RB becomes a Heisman candidate when holes get routinely blown open for him.  This will be the big off-season change, IMHO, which will help save CBB (at least for a year).
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: JaketheSnake on October 05, 2017, 10:33:42 am
I'm not an O-line expert and never played the position, but what stands out to me are the tight splits in the line.  HDN and MikeyMarkuson had gotten their O-line splits exceptionally tight toward the end of their time here.  Should lend a hand to the run game, but typically causes pass blocking to be more difficult.  The similarities are starting to show.

I think the issues start with coaching, and that we can't understate how problems on the O-line ripple thru the rest of the team.  It's amazing how an average QB can become an All-American when he has a day and a half to throw, and how an average RB becomes a Heisman candidate when holes get routinely blown open for him.  This will be the big off-season change, IMHO, which will help save CBB (at least for a year).
Tighter splits can actually help fornoaas pro bc the ol will have more help and the DL has less land to make moves without running into someone else.  Run blocking has a more difficult time with real right splits bc holes don't open as wide and did a shorter amount of time.

Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: twistitup on October 05, 2017, 10:36:49 am
Not retaining coaches is why we have the issues we have -
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: zebradynasty on October 05, 2017, 10:41:25 am
I'm not buying that Wallace can't understand or is too confused about the signals to play. OL are normally some of your smarter players on the team, at least that's been the case for Arkansas. Also, the OL is getting beat in more ways than just missed assignments. There is not much difference in getting beat by not knowing your assignments and getting beat with a speed rush every passing play.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: MuskogeeHogFan on October 05, 2017, 06:00:59 pm
Maybe we need to hire an inside man ;)?

FOTH is the closest we are going to get to that. I am pretty sure he hears about a lot of things from inside the team that he wisely chooses to not share on Hogville.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: JaketheSnake on October 05, 2017, 06:35:51 pm
FOTH is the closest we are going to get to that. I am pretty sure he hears about a lot of things from inside the team that he wisely chooses to not share on Hogville.
Sadly, when he does choose to share it doesn't take very long for people to think they know more than him.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: twistitup on October 06, 2017, 07:25:53 am
We should look in the direction of strength, conditioning, and nutrition

We may find more than just the solution for the Oline, but for the TEAM
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: What's Shakin' Macon on October 08, 2017, 01:26:41 am
I always do.  Rather have the coaching staffs grades who know he assignments than the experts on the message boards.
Haven't seen them posted just yet.
Title: Re: What is wrong with the OL?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 08, 2017, 08:20:03 am
I always do.  Rather have the coaching staffs grades who know he assignments than the experts on the message boards.
A player can do the right assignment all he wants but it doesn’t matter if he’s getting destroyed, getting pushed 10 yards in the backfield, or his fundamentals are horrible. Do the grades take that into account?
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on October 08, 2017, 08:23:49 am
FOTH is the closest we are going to get to that. I am pretty sure he hears about a lot of things from inside the team that he wisely chooses to not share on Hogville.
We need an inside man like Trey Biddy that doesn’t always bow down to the coaches. You know, one that doesn’t mind keeping it real and thinking for himself.

With that being said this offensive line will not be as good as it can be or reach its full potential until they put Brian Wallace back at Right Tackle. Period.
Title: Re: What has caused the OL issues?
Post by: What's Shakin' Macon on October 09, 2017, 01:02:07 am
We need an inside man like Trey Biddy that doesn’t always bow down to the coaches. You know, one that doesn’t mind keeping it real and thinking for himself.

With that being said this offensive line will not be as good as it can be or reach its full potential until they put Brian Wallace back at Right Tackle. Period.
Yep, FOTH is too biased. He thought all our OL problems were fixed b/c we didn't take a sack in the NMSU game.

That being said, while there is a lack of overall insight on the board, I think there are quite a few posters who know football really well here. Now basketball, on the hand... lol