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RB Sports Discussion => SEC Sports => Topic started by: twistitup on May 08, 2017, 01:22:02 pm

Title: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 08, 2017, 01:22:02 pm
RW3's situation, brain damage being reported by most retired NFL guys, and my personal health situation has me thinking a lot lately....

I don't think I will let my boy play football....it's just not worth it. I still have lingering issues from my playing days and I don't want this for my kid - I'm 39 and feel waaaayyyy older than that because of knee, ankle, shoulder and head injuries. We have information now that wasn't available when I played and I just don't think it is worth the risk.
Title: Re: Would you let you kid play football?
Post by: Next1_04 on May 08, 2017, 01:29:42 pm
When I was 15 years old, I was in off season basketball practice and slammed head first into the concrete wall underneath the goal (before there were protections pads). Long story short I had a brain bleed and was sent to ICU at Children's Hospital in Little Rock. The bleed finally stopped and I ended up alright. It was a complete freak accident but they do happen in all sports. I continued playing basketball all the way through my senior year knowing the risk of it happening again and causing more damage and it never did. Moral of the story accidents happen no matter the sport, it's just taking a risk. I will let me boys play if they want to, but, will make them aware of the possibilities of getting hurt.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: jgphillips3 on May 08, 2017, 01:29:54 pm
I would let them play, but I would not push them to play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 08, 2017, 01:32:29 pm
i would if he wanted to, but seems he prefers baseball.  I am torn about my experience playing football.  On some days i regret it when i think about what i gave up to play (could have stuck with Trumpet, couldn't take AP classes because it interfered with morning weights etc.) , but man i did enjoy playing so much.

I know the feels i am about your age OP, and i feel older then i should lol...

Also i just played up through High school.  College players, NFL etc. on a whole nother level of impact and abuse.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HoginMemphis on May 08, 2017, 01:33:12 pm
I played as a 9 and 10 yr old in LR YMCA league. Skipped 6th grade football season, played in 7th grade. Skipped 8th and 9th, and played 10th thru 12th at Catholic. Directly related to football injuries resulted in a bone chip off my right knee cap that had to be removed, sprained ankles more than I can count, and worst of all, a neck injury my senior year that resulted in fusion of C5-C6 18 years later. Not to mention being knocked out at least twice that probably was not good for my brain.

Was it worth it? No. Would I play if I had it to do all over again? No. Do I like to watch football? Yes. But I like to watch boxing and daredevil stuff too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 08, 2017, 01:36:49 pm
I understand letting them but not pushing them...and maybe  I will be open to it when he is old enough. The concussion issue is hard for me - we only have one brain and there is no operation to fix brain damage. I had 8 or 9 concussions in my playing days and I have few regrets - but don't want the same for my son. We now know the long term damage concussions have on the brain - knowledge is power.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: DeltaBoy on May 08, 2017, 01:37:05 pm
Yes but I had a girl and she broke her arm cheer leading and had several sprained ankles over 6 years of Jr High and Varsity Cheer. And I known 2 who quit due to concussions before their 19th birthday. 

I walk with a cane sometimes due to a right leg injury from HS football and in 2007 a Car wreck did it in real good. 
I would still play football and let my daughter cheer.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: micali on May 08, 2017, 01:50:36 pm
I told my boy he could be a place kicker or field goal kicker. That's it. Thankfully he doesn't want too. He supposed to be a big kid per the docs. I'd like for him to give baseball a try but I won't push him.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigE_23 on May 08, 2017, 02:17:04 pm
I absolutely will not let my son play football. There's too much data on the longterm effects for me to ignore as a parent. I played basketball in college, and I hope that my boy loves the game too. I've also taken an interest in lacrosse as a FB alternative to offer my son. There are far less head injuries with just as much intensity.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941)
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hawginbigd1 on May 08, 2017, 02:38:39 pm
Wouldn't change my decision, mine are past their playing days, but you can only put so much bubble wrap around them before you suffocate them. The rules changes have made the game much safer than when I played. But to each their own....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: theFlyingHog on May 08, 2017, 02:40:00 pm
Yes but would strongly encourage them to play other sports instead
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogbud on May 08, 2017, 02:42:20 pm
Based on amount of kids (youth tournaments) I see at boat ramps plus number of youth in woods hunting I think they are starting earlier to do what men as adults enjoy and look forward to. I have mixed feelings but know team sports and several coaches greatly influenced my life.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Seebs on May 08, 2017, 02:42:45 pm
I live in Cabot. I will not allow my son to play until Jr High School (the Manning model) after the abomination of how little league football is handled in Cabot.  They had seven year olds moved up to play with 10 year olds in order to have the numbers necessary.  No thanks.

Each story is different, but my son will play football once proper coaching is more available. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 08, 2017, 02:43:47 pm
All of you that have, or will later in this thread, point out accidents in basketball and cheer leading, and baseball and tiddly winks, those are accidents. Most basketball games see no one need to be helped off the court. It is rare for a football game in 7th grade or higher to not have at least one injury bad enough during play to require the player to be helped off the field. My kid played in a baseball tourney over the weekend, and not one player was injured in 13 games in his age group.

Football injuries are not usually freak accidents, they a a direct result of the fact that football is a collision sport. The post above about hitting their head on the concrete wall under the goal in a basketball game was a freak injury. I played 6 yrs in jrhs/hs and then 4 more in intramurals in college, and 3 after that in a competitive weekly rec league and never once was injured and only saw two broken bones in all that time, saw a broken collar bone from 2 guys colliding going for a loose ball, and a kid stepped on a foot and broke his ankle.

Last year I reffed about 40 football games from 6th grade through sr hs. Saw 3 kids have to be taken to the hospital immediately from the game, one with a head injury, one with a broken arm and another with a broken leg. I called over 100 basketball games, not one injury that even required the coach or trainer to come on the court. I've done about 50 baseball games so far this year, not one injury.

To the OP, would I let my kid play football, yes, if they wanted to. My oldest, about to graduate, played as a 7th grader. He played a lot ( ol and lb ) coaches were impressed with him, but he did not play in 8th grade because he didn't want to play again. My youngest is 14, 6'2 160 and has no desire to play football, and I am fine with that too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 08, 2017, 02:45:05 pm
I live in Cabot. I will not allow my son to play until Jr High School (the Manning model) after the abomination of how little league football is handled in Cabot.  They had seven year olds moved up to play with 10 year olds in order to have the numbers necessary.  No thanks.

Each story is different, but my son will play football once proper coaching is more available. 


Pee wee football is a joke.

What if your son does not want to play?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: jkstock04 on May 08, 2017, 02:45:52 pm
The possible long term effects aren't surprising. It's a physical sport with lots of impacts/collisions in the shoulder/head area. Always has been, so really not much has changed in that aspect.

Are players more prone to injury now days because everyone is getting bigger, stronger, and faster? Essentially is the game more dangerous today than it was 30 years ago? Does it continue to get more and more dangerous as the years pass? I'm not sure. But if the answer to that is yes, then as a parent for sure something to consider.

In the end though, logical sense says duh...of course there are going to be short term and long term risks involved with football. That's a no brainer...I'm not sure exactly why this is all of the sudden an issue or a revelation of sorts like people make it out to be.

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: razorbackfaninar on May 08, 2017, 02:47:39 pm
I played football for a total of 6 years. Now granted that was just Jr. High and High-school. I'm in my mid 40's and I have my share of aches and pains. I had my share of injuries too. Yes football was rough, but my life outside of football was pretty rough as well. Riding motorcycles, horses, water skiing, canoeing etc. not to mention I played baseball and, although I was bad at it, basketball.  In my mid 40's I guess you could say that I no longer intentionally court danger, but when I was young my friends and I looked for dangerous stuff to do because it was fun. 

I played football because it was fun.  Yes sometimes my knees are a little stiff, and my back aches, but that comes with age.  For me if I just look at the cost benefit analysis I wouldn't trade one practice, one game that I spent with my friends for my minor aches and pains. But that's me. I have the luxury of having only minor aches and pains.  If I had to decide between playing football and possibly not walking again like RWIII, well that choice would be easy.  Having said that, I am not delusional enough to believe that if I prohibit my sons from playing football that they would lead danger free or injury free lives.  That is not the nature of youth or the nature of young men, and it shouldn't be our goal for our sons and daughters. Life is full of uncertainties and while you may get injured playing football, you may just as easily get injured doing any other of a hundred activities from swimming to driving a car.

Children should enjoy the wild recklessness of youth while they have it. I tell my oldest son to play football as long as it is fun and he enjoys it.  I'll tell my youngest son the same. I'll hope and pray that they stay injury free while they play, and the same goes for when they ride a motorcycle, get in a plane, drive a car, play other sports, go hunting, or any of the other dangerous possibly life threatening activities that people engage in on a regular basis.           
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 08, 2017, 02:50:50 pm
I live in Cabot. I will not allow my son to play until Jr High School (the Manning model) after the abomination of how little league football is handled in Cabot.  They had seven year olds moved up to play with 10 year olds in order to have the numbers necessary.  No thanks.

Each story is different, but my son will play football once proper coaching is more available. 


My dad did this to us. There we 2 boys in my family, no POP WARNER football allowed - 7th grade was the first time to suit up for FB. Before football my parents wanted us to try other sports...we played soccer, baseball, and golf before football began dominating our lives.

Some of the top little league football players in my area were burned out by 8th grade because they weren't the superstars in school ball that they were in little league. IMHO kids don't need to be taking blows to the head that young...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 08, 2017, 02:56:02 pm

Children should enjoy the wild recklessness of youth while they have it. I tell my oldest son to play football as long as it is fun and he enjoys it.  I'll tell my youngest son the same. I'll hope and pray that they stay injury free while they play, and the same goes for when they ride a motorcycle, get in a plane, drive a car, play other sports, go hunting, or any of the other dangerous possibly life threatening activities that people engage in on a regular basis. 
         

I had a very wise couple tell me right after our 1st was born: " tell them yes every time you can, so when you have to say no, they realize it must be something very important or dangerous ".  Which is why we let the oldest, and would let the youngest if he wanted to, play football despite our trepidation about injuries.

My issue, and I have seen this alot, are dads that still make their kids play football because it will make them tough, or manly, especially before school ball starts in 7th grade ( at least its 7th in AR ). And who ride their kids about not acting like a wuss when they get popped or are genuinely hurt. I hear it all the time when I am working a game. Kids goes down, and if he does not get right up some jackwagon is yelling " git up, you aint hurt none ".
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: lstewart on May 08, 2017, 02:58:38 pm
My younger son was recruited by the junior high coaches after they seeing him throwing passes as a 7th grader at recess. He started at QB the next year as an 8th grader, got wracked up in practice the last week of the season, but made it through the last game that week. Finally found out once we got to a neuro that he had a fractured vertebrae and a torn disc. He spent the next 3 months is a full body brace, missing basketball season. Talked him into giving up football to focus on basketball and tennis. He ended up being one of the top high school tennis players in the state and got a D-2 scholarship. Injuries are going to happen in all sports, but football is probably the most risky. I love it as a fan, but would encourage kids now to find other sports to focus on.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: PorkRinds on May 08, 2017, 02:59:56 pm
I have girls so I won't likely have to make the decision.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hogsenburg on May 08, 2017, 03:06:06 pm
I'm only 30 and a lot of days feel much older.....but I wouldn't trade the memories for the world and I would do it all over again. If I ever have a son I will absolutely want him to play football. It has been a huge part of my life since I was 11 or 12
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hogsenburg on May 08, 2017, 03:06:28 pm
I have girls so I won't likely have to make the decision.

same here.....only girls for me so far
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 08, 2017, 03:16:01 pm
I had a very wise couple tell me right after our 1st was born: " tell them yes every time you can, so when you have to say no, they realize it must be something very important or dangerous ".  Which is why we let the oldest, and would let the youngest if he wanted to, play football despite our trepidation about injuries.

My issue, and I have seen this alot, are dads that still make their kids play football because it will make them tough, or manly, especially before school ball starts in 7th grade ( at least its 7th in AR ). And who ride their kids about not acting like a wuss when they get popped or are genuinely hurt. I hear it all the time when I am working a game. Kids goes down, and if he does not get right up some jackwagon is yelling " git up, you aint hurt none ".

Omg this last paragraph i cannot stress enough.

I witnessed (growing up) my best friend get road so hard by his dad (who sponsored his pop warner team and coached) that it was abusive i will never forget it and it is some 33 years later.  I also recently starting reffing boys and girls club football and basketball leagues.  The sheer volume of jack wagons on the sidelines makes you weep for humanity and for the kids.  Never seen people live so vicariously through their children in a sport so pointless as tiny kids "playing" football.  They are suppose to be doing it for fun and to learn the game, but don't tell these parents that, they believe it to be marines bootcamp where the last surviving kid wins a guaranteed try out with the Cowboys...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 08, 2017, 03:21:28 pm
Guys, freak accidents happen walking across the street, that doesn't mean you should play chicken with incoming traffic just because you're wearing a helmet and your buddy is cheering you on.

Football is statistically harder on the body than any other popular American sport. Add the head trauma conversation and it's only logical that parents would think twice about letting their kids play football.

I played football through high school, never had one injury. I blew out my knee playing high school soccer and now I walk with a limp some days from the arthritis. Still debate if I will let my kids play football, but I wouldn't bat an eye if they wanted to play soccer.

A potential bum knee is a lot different than head trauma.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pigsfeat on May 08, 2017, 03:49:15 pm
My son was the starting QB for his HS team the last two years of his high school career. He endured a sublux in his throwing shoulder, lacerated kidney where he passed blood in his Miss for a couple days, many ankle injuries and bumps and bruises. I loved watching him and worried about him every game but allowed him to make his on choice. He went on to play baseball in college and is now coaching baseball and football at the school he teaches at.
The only big complaint I had was that in Mississippi HS ball they called intentional grounding if you threw the ball out of bounds to avoid a sack. If college and NFL allow QBs to throw it out of bounds for player safety then why not in HS? I couldn't believe it!
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on May 08, 2017, 03:50:24 pm
Let them play yes.  Encourage it no.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 08, 2017, 03:51:35 pm
My son was the starting QB for his HS team the last two years of his high school career. He endured a sublux in his throwing shoulder, lacerated kidney where he passed blood in his Miss for a couple days, many ankle injuries and bumps and bruises. I loved watching him and worried about him every game but allowed him to make his on choice. He went on to play baseball in college and is now coaching baseball and football at the school he teaches at.
The only big complaint I had was that in Mississippi HS ball they called intentional grounding if you threw the ball out of bounds to avoid a sack. If college and NFL allow QBs to throw it out of bounds for player safety then why not in HS? I couldn't believe it!

Lots of rules are different in HS, in all sports, than in college or pros. HS still has the 5 yard face mask. HS Baseball a balk is a dead ball.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pigsfeat on May 08, 2017, 03:53:40 pm
Lots of rules are different in HS, in all sports, than in college or pros. HS still has the 5 yard face mask. HS Baseball a balk is a dead ball.
That was what the officials told my son after flagging him. I just don't understand why we wouldn't try to protect kids in HS the way they do in college and pros. It seems like something that could be changed, although it wouldn't help my son now.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 08, 2017, 03:59:29 pm
That was what the officials told my son after flagging him. I just don't understand why we wouldn't try to protect kids in HS the way they do in college and pros. It seems like something that could be changed, although it wouldn't help my son now.


I agree, not sure why it is that way. 1st flag I threw for facemask the white hat asked me if it was 5 or 15, I just stared at him, no one told me they still used the 5 yard "inadvertent" call.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pigsfeat on May 08, 2017, 04:09:09 pm
I agree, not sure why it is that way. 1st flag I threw for facemask the white hat asked me if it was 5 or 15, I just stared at him, no one told me they still used the 5 yard "inadvertent" call.
Sometimes I wish they still had the inadvertent facemask call in college and NFL but I know it is easier on the officials to not have to determine that.
My son figured a way around the out of bounds throw by throwing it into the ground at the receiver's feet closest to him. The receivers started complaining about him hitting them in the feet, though. ;) 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: golf2day on May 08, 2017, 04:26:13 pm
They might be able to talk me into it if they tried hard enough, but I damn sure won't give in without a fight.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Poker_hog on May 08, 2017, 04:39:34 pm
same here.....only girls for me so far

I'm fellow X-shooter as well.  So it won't be an issue.

But I strongly believe that the benefits of playing team sports outweighs the risks.  August football practices are a grind.  Many things worth doing are a similar grind.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: longpig on May 08, 2017, 04:39:38 pm
I would if he was already kind of simple.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Karma on May 08, 2017, 04:44:36 pm
I would not, and it makes me feel a little guilty about how much I enjoy watching other peoples kids play football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: daprospecta on May 08, 2017, 04:45:26 pm
It was a dream of mine to play for the Razorbacks(dream achieved) but I started playing football at 7.  I hung up the cleats at 22 and I don't have any lasting effects at the moment. With that being said, no, I would not allow my son to play football.  I played D-line and the collisions were minimal but still.  Baseball is the sport I'd prefer.  Easier entry if you are good enough,  can play for 15+ with minimal wear and tear.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 08, 2017, 04:52:46 pm
If ever I have them, sure. I would caution them about the dangers and risks. However, I wouldn't push any sport on them though I would push them to be active. If anything, they'd wind up taking up rock climbing.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HogShat on May 08, 2017, 05:03:50 pm
My son is 15 and entering into his 8th year playing football. Well, he missed his 8th grade year due to a broken arm on the first day of fall practice. He was moving his 4 wheeler out of the way of his mom's truck and the throttle stuck in reverse slinging him to the ground and snapping it. Needless to say he didn't make it to practice. He's a good sized kid already, 6'0'' 250ish. Never played anywhere but OL. He played mostly center last couple years, some guard as well. Stats show, longsnapper and center have the lowest concussion rates, followed by the rest of the OL and DL with the rates steady climbing the farther away from the ball you get. Do I worry? Sure, what parent doesn't. I worry more that he will be 16 in a few months and be turned loose behind the wheel of a vehicle. Scares the bejesus out of me. But like someone earlier said, there is only so much bubble wrap you can put on them...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 08, 2017, 05:25:58 pm
I think it depends on the kid.  My son pestered me to play tackle football when he was 5.  My wife and I said no.  Not no, period, just not now.  We let him play soccer and t-ball.  This went on every year until we said yes at 8.  That's when I started playing YMCA football in Little Rock. 

I think the age at which a boy should start football depends on the program and coaching available, too.  Youth football was well organized, well coached, and very popular in Little Rock in the early to mid-70s. Friendships that began and developed there have lasted many of us a lifetime.  I went turkey hunting with two of those friends recently.  The three of us scattered as adults, but one thing we've discovered the older we get - you can't make old friends.  There's something about the bond football teammates build.  We played basketball, baseball and ran track together, too, but football was special. 

When I was considering when to allow my son to play, I researched the program itself and talked to other parents.  I learned that there was an organization called Tennessee Youth Football Association with programs in many communities in middle Tennessee.  Weight restrictions for backs made me feel better about injuries, and three levels of competition within each age group did as well.  The biggest players generally wind up in AAA, the next in AA, and the rest are divided into A teams.  The Brentwood Blaze, where my son played, usually had about 140 players in each age group, enough for 5 or 6 teams.  Coaches were often fathers with college football experience or better.  Teams were drafted after a two week assessment period where a lot of coaching took place.  The season kicked off every year with a jamboree that included fireworks. Every team had cheerleaders, and most games came complete with a PA announcer.  Leagues and playoffs involved competition between communities.  All in all it was a wonderful experience for everyone involved.  My son played for 5 years and my daughter cheered every year.  My son wiil be high school senior and wants to play in college.  My daughter was a varsity cheerleader as a freshman and wants to cheer in college.  Friday nights are big in our house these days.

Having said this, I just got home from a doctor's appointment with my daughter.  Cheer is a year-round sport, especially where competition is concerned.  She may have a stress fracture from all the high impact tumbling on hard surfaces.  Cheerleaders also don't like dairy, so they seem to have abnormally high instances of stress fractures.  Again, part of the demands of the sport.  My son tore a meniscus in January playing goalie for Brentwood's hockey team.  He's never had a serious injury from football, but he played tailback and cornerback last year, and if you can't stand to see your child swollen and bruised, don't let him play or don't look after a game. 

Another consideration is the kid himself.  Would he rather be the bug or the windshield?  Bugs get hurt more in football, especially youth football.  If your child is timid, football isn't likely to toughen him up, but it may get him hurt and damage his confidence. 

Some of the best days of my life were spent on a football field, practices included.  My best friends were my teammates.  Some still are.  My son would tell you the same.  He has waked up at 5:00 am most days since he was a freshman to work out.  That's for football.  He hates track but runs because it complements football.  He has logged more than 100 hours of community service because his coach encourages it.  He coaches 7-8 year old flag football.  My daughter competes year round as a cheerleader.  She is an explosive athlete.  Neither my son nor I would ever think of trying to do the things she does.  Both kids have learned discipline and built confidence while competing in the sports they love.  They've both been hurt.  Ice packs and Advil are staples in our house.  They do it because  they love to compete.  Their mom and I believe the risk is worth the reward.  Will we if one of them sustains a life altering injury?  I don't know.  We'll just support them and hope for the best the way we did when we gave our son the keys to his car.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HamSammich on May 08, 2017, 05:34:30 pm
Rugby- yes
Baseball- yes
Basketball- yes
Judo- yes
Boxing- hell no
Football- hell no

I've been hit so hard in football and in boxing my teeth and little toes hurt... I know it scrambled the eggs in my head. All the other sports I played not once.



Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 10thPlanet on May 08, 2017, 05:36:29 pm
Mine played until 10th grade. Then he needed to focus on basketball which is HIS favorite sport. Had I know the future he never would've played football, he would've just been putting shots up in the gym. Not going to lie, it hurt me when he made his decision. I thought he was going to be a better QB/RB/WR(he played all of those in Jr high(4A now at a 7A) than a basketball guard. Truth is he most likely doesn't have a future in collegiate sports. Lot's of character building though.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HogBreath on May 08, 2017, 06:08:27 pm
Great sport for sure, we all love it.....BUT.... parents, don't let your kids play football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 08, 2017, 06:16:02 pm
My nephew is a good sized 10th grader....about 6'0" 200lbs.....but mama said NO. He's never been interested anyway. He wants to be a musician (uh oh).
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HognitiveDissonance on May 08, 2017, 06:20:50 pm
The thread in this forum titled 'RWIII' that is now locked has much discussion on same topic of the safety of football, starting a few pages in.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: theFlyingHog on May 08, 2017, 06:31:53 pm
They might be able to talk me into it if they tried hard enough, but I damn sure won't give in without a fight.
You got one that's too sadistic for football. I see the waterboy with an evil smile on his face
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: golf2day on May 08, 2017, 06:38:21 pm
You got one that's too sadistic for football. I see the waterboy with an evil smile on his face
The waterboy had a kind heart. That one smiles while he watches you bleed.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: SooiecidetillNuttgone on May 08, 2017, 07:31:12 pm
Will you let him drive?
There's a much larger chance of an accident and much higher chance of serious injury/death.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: SA Hog Fan on May 08, 2017, 07:37:14 pm
Will discourage it
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 08, 2017, 07:49:16 pm
Will you let him drive?
There's a much larger chance of an accident and much higher chance of serious injury/death.

Football is like multiple car accidents every Saturday during the season

Long term brain damage is undeniable

Yes, I will let him drive....this is not a conversation about me sheltering my children - it's more about responsible decision making. I'm not anti-football in the least- just looking after my boy.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 08, 2017, 08:50:02 pm
Sure did, and I'd let them play all over again.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: tophawg19 on May 08, 2017, 08:52:46 pm
So y'all love football as long as it's somebody else's kid . who cares if they get hurt. yes i played sports and had both shoulders dislocated in football , hyperextended a knee and broke my nose in baseball , broke fingers and messed up an ankle playing basketball as well as broke nose again. got hurt multiple times on motorcycles and 4 wheelers . yes i've been down but it taught me to get back up and be tough . And how to fight through adversity . This sounds like the gladiators where everyone sits in the stands to watch the few brave souls who dare to be champions . If it were possible I'd go back and do it again
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 08, 2017, 09:00:27 pm
Football is like multiple car accidents every Saturday during the season

Long term brain damage is undeniable

Yes, I will let him drive....this is not a conversation about me sheltering my children - it's more about responsible decision making. I'm not anti-football in the least- just looking after my boy.

According to a recent study published by Stanford Student Health, baseball has the highest fatality rate for children aged 5-14, with 3-4 deaths occurring annually.  I've known three high school baseball players the last two years who had Tommy John surgery.  The only concussion I ever suffered was a serious concussion playing basketball.  I have painful arthtritus in my right elbow from pitching and had a laminectomy at 43 to repair a disk that ruptured after years of hitting thousands of golf balls.

This is not an indictment of other sports or sports in general.  Most team sports have some element of risk.  They also produce benefits.  Football is the funnest game I ever played, and nothing else was close.  Why deprive a kid who wants to play and loves the game of that experience? 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on May 08, 2017, 09:02:19 pm
I have two sons.  Neither played football until the 8th grade.  One is going to be a sophomore at Fayetteville High this fall, the other will be a red shirt Sophomore at the University of Arkansas.  I never told either of them to play.  I told them to be make good grades.  Neither of them had a killer instinct or liked contact until their 9th grade years.  Do I worry about them? Yes.  I also worry when the older one drives across town or when  the younger rides his mountain bike like a maniac down a bluff.  I pray that neither of them get hurt.  But when it comes down to it, I'm very happy that they play football.  The life lessons that you learn as a player last the rest of your life.  Today's kids have grown up in a narcissistic society that focuses on little but what attention you can gain for yourself.  Football is not like that.  Especially with both of them being offensive lineman.  It teaches you what the real world is like.  Most of us get up every day and go to our jobs.  We work, do everything we should, and don't mess anything up.  Do we get anything extra for that? No.  But what if you do your job right 99% of the time, but that one time you screw up, everyone sees it and it's all that they talk about.  That's the life of an offensive lineman.  Football also teaches that if you don't do your job, everything falls apart.  It's about more than just you.  It's about what WE can do when WE are all accountable.  That's the way everyone should approach everything and football has helped both of my son's learn that.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Birminghog on May 08, 2017, 09:23:31 pm
My kid is a girl, but if she had been a boy, it would have been her choice after being made aware of the issues. Would not have let her play prior to middle school. I introduced her to a variety of activities and let her find her way. She would have been a good golfer or tennis player, but for a sport, she chose basketball after being introduced to it in Upward - eventually played on an undefeated middle school team but chose not to play high school ball. Did ballet, piano, and violin early on, but eventually chose violin and oboe. Went to college as a double major in music performance and business and is gravitating toward finance and not sure what other segment of business.

My dad played football in the 1920's & early 1930's. Tore up his knees, preventing his acceptance when he volunteered for World War II. He did not want his son, who was fast but little and stick thin, to play football. Joined band instead, and nearly 50 years later, have enjoyed a career in music education.

Present them with opportunities, make them aware of the challenges, then support their choices. They will eventually find their way.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 1highhog on May 08, 2017, 10:27:21 pm
In a New York minute, if he wanted to play.  I would not encourage him to play, and if he wanted to, I would make him aware of all the lingering issues that former plays have had and the brain damage and the possibility of being paralyzed, after all that and he still wants to play, he can play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hobhog on May 08, 2017, 10:34:46 pm
Never pushed mine to play. He loved it and was a good player until high school but was too small to play AAAAA football and played baseball instead. I am glad he got to experience football but understood his decision.

I played 8th grade thru 12th with no serious injury. Would do it again. It's a great sport and injuries are the exception not the rule. Hope it's around a long time.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: OneTuskOverTheLine™ on May 08, 2017, 10:36:24 pm
mine is playing right now. Senior year coming up.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on May 08, 2017, 10:40:32 pm
Yes, playing now. It is his decision. I don't push him to play and check w/ him regularly, asking if he is still enjoying it and if he wants to continue.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigSexyHog on May 08, 2017, 10:56:55 pm
Yes I would.   I wouldn't even think twice about it.  Injuries in sports do not scare me but it would be his choice.  Mine is a junior in high school.  Played sports as a kid but never took to it.  I didn't push him and let him make his own decision.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 08, 2017, 11:20:00 pm
Will you let him drive?
There's a much larger chance of an accident and much higher chance of serious injury/death.

You don't play football to get to work every morning on time. A car is a need.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: PORKULATOR on May 08, 2017, 11:36:28 pm
Live life. Teach your kids to live life too.
My daughter is about to start kayaking the Ocoee River with me and STILL the most dangerous thing I let her do is pitch in FPSoftball. Some chick could take her head off.
She likes /wants to compete so I. Behind it.
Oldest boy, I've had upside down in kayaks and on climbing walls since he was 13, WOULD HAVE LOVED FOR HIM TO PLAY FOOTBALL. Tall, lean... Healthy....
Transgender

Well, I love her, but yeah... I'd have let either one of them play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigE_23 on May 08, 2017, 11:37:37 pm
According to a recent study published by Stanford Student Health, baseball has the highest fatality rate for children aged 5-14, with 3-4 deaths occurring annually.  I've known three high school baseball players the last two years who had Tommy John surgery.  The only concussion I ever suffered was a serious concussion playing basketball.  I have painful arthtritus in my right elbow from pitching and had a laminectomy at 43 to repair a disk that ruptured after years of hitting thousands of golf balls.

This is not an indictment of other sports or sports in general.  Most team sports have some element of risk.  They also produce benefits.  Football is the funnest game I ever played, and nothing else was close.  Why deprive a kid who wants to play and loves the game of that experience?

We're not just talking fatality rate...we're talking long term injuries.

How many people get paralyzed from baseball? Concussions happen but rarely...football is brutal contact for 60 minutes in which the head and neck are thrown towards someone running at you in a dead sprint. To try and compare baseball to football based on higher fatality rates is nothing short of a stretch.

There's a concussion on 76 out of every 100,000 athletic exposures in football. Compare that to 5 out of 100K for baseball. There's literally no comparison.

http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: PORKULATOR on May 08, 2017, 11:44:43 pm
The equipment most of us played with compared to what is offered now is night and day.  Some of us will be unlucky, but most, and that's in the 90%range, will have kids who learn a lot about  "things" FROM sports and then go ON with their lives.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on May 09, 2017, 05:57:31 am
Yes, playing now. It is his decision. I don't push him to play and check w/ him regularly, asking if he is still enjoying it and if he wants to continue.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Seebs on May 09, 2017, 07:26:21 am
Pee wee football is a joke.

What if your son does not want to play?

I am the Great Santini.

Your question is idiotic and hardly worth a reply, but I felt obligated to point out the sheer stupidity of your question.

It is I that is making him wait until 7th grade - he wants to play now.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Razorbackers on May 09, 2017, 08:18:31 am
Will you let him drive?
There's a much larger chance of an accident and much higher chance of serious injury/death.

Do you like eggs?
There's a much larger chance of a heart attack or heart disease.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: jusgtohogs on May 09, 2017, 08:27:49 am
I would let them play, but I would not push them to play.

this^^^^^^^  I have 5 Grandsons.  If they decide to play football, I will watch them every chance I get.  They won't be pressured to play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Razorbackers on May 09, 2017, 08:28:33 am
So y'all love football as long as it's somebody else's kid . who cares if they get hurt. yes i played sports and had both shoulders dislocated in football , hyperextended a knee and broke my nose in baseball , broke fingers and messed up an ankle playing basketball as well as broke nose again. got hurt multiple times on motorcycles and 4 wheelers . yes i've been down but it taught me to get back up and be tough . And how to fight through adversity . This sounds like the gladiators where everyone sits in the stands to watch the few brave souls who dare to be champions . If it were possible I'd go back and do it again

Well a few things here.

1) I would be pretty conflicted about letting my son play football. I loved playing it, and it got both my uncles, my dad, a cousin, and myself into college to some degree. I also see the toll it took on all of us as we age. It probably wasn't worth it for me, I went D2, got injured quickly, and quit. Now my shoulder, knee, and ankles hurt and I'm only 30. I'll definitely give pause if my son wants to play Football.

2) Football can teach a lot of things, as can sports. But they aren't the only way to learn how to fight through adversity or to be tough.

3) The gladiator comparison is already accurate. Are your kids playing in the NFL or NCAA? We're already watching a group of people slowly kill themselves for our entertainment. Of course, they're paid well to do it if they can get to the NFL or go to Auburn or Ole Miss. But trends show less and less middle class and higher kids playing football, largely due to risk. What percentage of the Razorbacks are kids from lower income homes and neighborhoods? That percentage will most likely rise in the coming years, as affluent children play basketball, baseball, and soccer.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Piglet Dispersion Syndrome on May 09, 2017, 08:53:37 am
I played in high school, all conference AAA pulling guard at the time, so I was average. Hurt my right knee in 9th grade, still have issues with swelling on it. Everything I learned about mental toughness came from football, and that has helped me in my post graduate education and career. My 10 y/o played last year for first time with my encouragement. He was decent but I don't think he loves it. I helped coach him, so knew what he was doing every day. I am honestly having major second thoughts about the risks, and I would not be torn up if he didn't play this year. On the other hand, I want him to do something athletically in the fall and not be an xbox couch potato, because that has long term risks as well. He does like baseball, so I will go all in to support that and maybe we'll see what the fall holds there. Still conflicted to be honest.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: PLHawg on May 09, 2017, 09:13:06 am
Well a few things here.

1) I would be pretty conflicted about letting my son play football. I loved playing it, and it got both my uncles, my dad, a cousin, and myself into college to some degree. I also see the toll it took on all of us as we age. It probably wasn't worth it for me, I went D2, got injured quickly, and quit. Now my shoulder, knee, and ankles hurt and I'm only 30. I'll definitely give pause if my son wants to play Football.

2) Football can teach a lot of things, as can sports. But they aren't the only way to learn how to fight through adversity or to be tough.

3) The gladiator comparison is already accurate. Are your kids playing in the NFL or NCAA? We're already watching a group of people slowly kill themselves for our entertainment. Of course, they're paid well to do it if they can get to the NFL or go to Auburn or Ole Miss. But trends show less and less middle class and higher kids playing football, largely due to risk. What percentage of the Razorbacks are kids from lower income homes and neighborhoods? That percentage will most likely rise in the coming years, as affluent children play basketball, baseball, and soccer.


I played football myself from third grade up until my sophomore year of high school, I was fortunate never suffered any significant injuries - but consider myself lucky.  My son started playing soccer when he was like five years old, and when he hit third grade I encouraged him to go out for football because he seemed to have some athletic talent.  He broke his arm the second game he played, so I took that as somewhat of an omen.  I didn't discourage him to play more football he just decided on his own that it wasn't for him.  He went on to play basketball, soccer, ran track and cross country - and was successful in all.  I don't even slightly regret him not playing football, as much as I love watching it.
One thing that cannot be denied is as much progress and innovation there is in the development of protective equipment, it isn't keeping pace with the development of the players - size, strength, speed.  I believe ten years from now you're going to see a drastic decrease in the number of kids that are not only not going out for little league football, but also jr. high and high school.  I think it will be especially apparent in upper social-economic school districts.  Today's parents are not only armed with a lot more knowledge of the risks involved, but they're generally more involved with their kids, somewhat to the point of being smothering.  As opposed to seeing, say a hundred kids going out for the high school football team, I believe you're going to see sixty, seventy, maybe eighty depending on the winning tradition of the program itself. 
 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 09:21:23 am

I played football myself from third grade up until my sophomore year of high school, I was fortunate never suffered any significant injuries - but consider myself lucky.  My son started playing soccer when he was like five years old, and when he hit third grade I encouraged him to go out for football because he seemed to have some athletic talent.  He broke his arm the second game he played, so I took that as somewhat of an omen.  I didn't discourage him to play more football he just decided on his own that it wasn't for him.  He went on to play basketball, soccer, ran track and cross country - and was successful in all.  I don't even slightly regret him not playing football, as much as I love watching it.
One thing that cannot be denied is as much progress and innovation there is in the development of protective equipment, it isn't keeping pace with the development of the players - size, strength, speed.  I believe ten years from now you're going to see a drastic decrease in the number of kids that are not only not going out for little league football, but also jr. high and high school.  I think it will be especially apparent in upper social-economic school districts.  Today's parents are not only armed with a lot more knowledge of the risks involved, but they're generally more involved with their kids, somewhat to the point of being smothering.  As opposed to seeing, say a hundred kids going out for the high school football team, I believe you're going to see sixty, seventy, maybe eighty depending on the winning tradition of the program itself. 
 

Football is going to continue to be the "proving grounds" for a kids toughness - even though that is utterly stupid - for at least another generation.

Football IS NOT the only sport where kids can learn teamwork, mental toughness, etc. My youngest plays baseball, he is a catcher, it takes plenty of both physical and mental toughness to play that position. It takes a mentally tough kid to play PG in basketball with all the presing an trapping now.

Those bringing up socio-economic points may or may not be right. I know in FS, Southside is the more affluent HS, and they have over 100 out for football, meanwhile Northside has seen number dip into the 50's just 3 or 4 years ago, and they are a 7a school.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Razorbackers on May 09, 2017, 09:35:51 am

I played football myself from third grade up until my sophomore year of high school, I was fortunate never suffered any significant injuries - but consider myself lucky.  My son started playing soccer when he was like five years old, and when he hit third grade I encouraged him to go out for football because he seemed to have some athletic talent.  He broke his arm the second game he played, so I took that as somewhat of an omen.  I didn't discourage him to play more football he just decided on his own that it wasn't for him.  He went on to play basketball, soccer, ran track and cross country - and was successful in all.  I don't even slightly regret him not playing football, as much as I love watching it.
One thing that cannot be denied is as much progress and innovation there is in the development of protective equipment, it isn't keeping pace with the development of the players - size, strength, speed.  I believe ten years from now you're going to see a drastic decrease in the number of kids that are not only not going out for little league football, but also jr. high and high school.  I think it will be especially apparent in upper social-economic school districts.  Today's parents are not only armed with a lot more knowledge of the risks involved, but they're generally more involved with their kids, somewhat to the point of being smothering.  As opposed to seeing, say a hundred kids going out for the high school football team, I believe you're going to see sixty, seventy, maybe eighty depending on the winning tradition of the program itself.

I think what you're going to see is the philosophy of "why play football and risk injury" from a lot of parents in the more well-off financial areas. Little Timmy is going to college regardless, so let him focus on other sports. Meanwhile, places with less opportunity will see football remain as a popular sport, at least as long as the college scholarships and the NFL are around.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on May 09, 2017, 09:42:58 am
I think what you're going to see is the philosophy of "why play football and risk injury" from a lot of parents in the more well-off financial areas. Little Timmy is going to college regardless, so let him focus on other sports. Meanwhile, places with less opportunity will see football remain as a popular sport, at least as long as the college scholarships and the NFL are around.

Definitely seeing this in our city.  The kids in the "better off" schools have seen fairly significant football numbers decline and other sports increase, while urban schools have also seen numbers decline in football participation but at a much smaller scale.

I admit I'm conflicted about my son playing.  I love watching him play and the teamwork mentality he's developed from it, but I wonder at times if I'm making the right decision to let him play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 09:44:41 am
Meanwhile, places with less opportunity will see football remain as a popular sport, at least as long as the college scholarships and the NFL are around.


Do most people in those areas truly think their kid has the talent to get a football scholarship? Most Ar HS football stadiums are filled on Friday nights, over 200 schools have varsity football, but even counting every level of college football, how many get athletic scholarships each year? And that is in a small state like Arkansas.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HoginMemphis on May 09, 2017, 10:00:14 am
Some thorough responses here, especially by bphillips. For me, I probably would not play again if I had it to do over. As for letting my child play, it would be up to him and the circumstances. As it turned out, my son was not interested in it. My thought at the time was, "just as well."
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 10:00:16 am
Do most people in those areas truly think their kid has the talent to get a football scholarship? Most Ar HS football stadiums are filled on Friday nights, over 200 schools have varsity football, but even counting every level of college football, how many get athletic scholarships each year? And that is in a small state like Arkansas.

it is a peculiar delusion to be sure.  Lots of people operate under. 

1. Football is only way to demonstrate or learn toughness.
2. Football is only way "out of a bad life circumstance"
3. Equipment is "so much better these days", when it is impossible to wear a helmet for your brain.  The helmet while better then it use to be cannot stop the micro collisions of your brain hitting the inside of your skull.
4. Or the best one, "well life is tough, and other things can get you hurt to".

Football is an institution that is deeply ingrained in our society it will not go away quickly nor quietly (probably not ever in our life time).  Because people don't want it to, they fear it's absence.   Btw i love football and i played.  But i cannot deny the brain banging into the skull over time consequence, and i doubt people will accept 7 on 7 to eliminate that result.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 10:12:23 am

Football is an institution that is deeply ingrained in our society it will not go away quickly nor quietly (probably not ever in our life time).  Because people don't want it to, they fear it's absence.   Btw i love football and i played.  But i cannot deny the brain banging into the skull over time consequence, and i doubt people will accept 7 on 7 to eliminate that result.


I do not want it to go away. I would like to see the attitudes toward it change. I would like to see tackle football go away below jrhs level.

Funny you mention the micro collisions. The one season my son did play, the only time he got his bell rung was when he was playing guard and did a simple block. Not one issue on all the tackles he made at LB, or the pulling blocks he made, just on a simple straight ahead block that looked as routine as any you'd ever see. 


4. Or the best one, "well life is tough, and other things can get you hurt to".


And we learn to avoid or limit exposure to as many of those things as we can, but for some reason we are supposed to ignore the risks of football.

And please no one get me wrong. I love watching college football. I love officiating football. Some very good people have made a lot of money playing football and done alot of good with it, and I am sure football has kept some kids off the streets and alive long enough to make something of themselves. But, football is not the great savior of the male gender that many portray it to be.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 10:20:48 am
I do not want it to go away. I would like to see the attitudes toward it change. I would like to see tackle football go away below jrhs level.

Funny you mention the micro collisions. The one season my son did play, the only time he got his bell rung was when he was playing guard and did a simple block. Not one issue on all the tackles he made at LB, or the pulling blocks he made, just on a simple straight ahead block that looked as routine as any you'd ever see. 

And we learn to avoid or limit exposure to as many of those things as we can, but for some reason we are supposed to ignore the risks of football.

And please no one get me wrong. I love watching college football. I love officiating football. Some very good people have made a lot of money playing football and done alot of good with it, and I am sure football has kept some kids off the streets and alive long enough to make something of themselves. But, football is not the great savior of the male gender that many portray it to be.

Yes i played OL as well.  Two things i always believed the line or linemen have it worst because of the constant banging.  It is similar to boxing vs MMA.  Boxing IMHO is worse for you because of the constant beating of your head with pillows for 12 rounds as oppose to being knocked out in a flash.  IE big hit in Football is damaging but not as damaging as banging your head into a wall repeatedly for 2 and half hours.

It is modern day gladiatorial activity.  Gladiators were never, are never meant to survive.  Can dress it up as glory all people want, but the fact is at it's base it is a blood sport, where if there is no blood a large subsection of the fan base is not interested because they are there to see someone get hurt.
Title: Re: Would you let you kid play football?
Post by: jbigs77 on May 09, 2017, 10:36:29 am
When I was 15 years old, I was in off season basketball practice and slammed head first into the concrete wall underneath the goal (before there were protections pads). Long story short I had a brain bleed and was sent to ICU at Children's Hospital in Little Rock. The bleed finally stopped and I ended up alright. It was a complete freak accident but they do happen in all sports. I continued playing basketball all the way through my senior year knowing the risk of it happening again and causing more damage and it never did. Moral of the story accidents happen no matter the sport, it's just taking a risk. I will let me boys play if they want to, but, will make them aware of the possibilities of getting hurt.

This is so true. You can get hurt doing anything. I played all sports, and got hurt to some degree playing them. But I will say this, football is a rough game, and severe injuries are more likely. With the strength of todays players, the impacts are much more severe. I played football at a small NWA school back in the 70s. Against the competition in this area I played, it wasn't bad. But we played a team from Little Rock, I was playing defensive nose guard and was chasing the QB going for a sack. I got hit by a pulling OG (blindsided) he hit me so hard, I flew in the air, landed on my A$$, skidded for 3 yards, them rolled for 3 more. My helmet came off and he also knocked off my shoes. I didn't know the day or year when asked. It would be a highlight film for ESPN if on tape. It occurred to me at that time, football wasn't my game. I played more baseball after that.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HogShat on May 09, 2017, 12:01:14 pm
Yes i played OL as well.  Two things i always believed the line or linemen have it worst because of the constant banging.  It is similar to boxing vs MMA.  Boxing IMHO is worse for you because of the constant beating of your head with pillows for 12 rounds as oppose to being knocked out in a flash.  IE big hit in Football is damaging but not as damaging as banging your head into a wall repeatedly for 2 and half hours.


Statistical data proves just the opposite, as far as OL and DL are concerned...

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/


I did read somewhere else that linemen may also be less likely to report concussion symptoms so who really knows...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 12:19:31 pm
Statistical data proves just the opposite, as far as OL and DL are concerned...

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/


I did read somewhere else that linemen may also be less likely to report concussion symptoms so who really knows...


Micro collisions that could or IMHO would make getting CTE more likely don't always come from a full blown concussion. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: code red on May 09, 2017, 12:42:52 pm
There is nothing I wouldn't do to run through another banner at Greenbrier High School just one more time.  Football...means more to a community than just a  game.  Friday nights in Arkansas are an institution.  I wouldn't ever tell my kid he couldn't play football if he/she wanted to.  The friendships built are what it is all about.  Love that game.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HawgHeadCheese on May 09, 2017, 12:46:00 pm
I would absolutely let my kid play football. I played football since the age of 6 years old all the way through college. I played OL/DL in HS and OL in college. I never had a serious injury. The worst injury I ever had was bruised ribs and turf toe. Now that I'm 29 and I'm done with the game I do have terrible tendonitis in my knees and shoulder. When youre a kid you dont care about being safe or when you love something you don't care about it hurting you in the long run. I currently live in Dallas and before I started teaching and coaching here I worked for Baylor Orthopedics and our doctors saw hs, college, and professionally athletes as well as regular people. I will just say that 98 percent of our patients weren't football players. Its a dangerous world we live in and anything can cause a injury. I wont treat my child like the boy in the bubble.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 01:09:59 pm
Football is going to continue to be the "proving grounds" for a kids toughness - even though that is utterly stupid - for at least another generation.

Football IS NOT the only sport where kids can learn teamwork, mental toughness, etc. My youngest plays baseball, he is a catcher, it takes plenty of both physical and mental toughness to play that position. It takes a mentally tough kid to play PG in basketball with all the presing an trapping now.

Those bringing up socio-economic points may or may not be right. I know in FS, Southside is the more affluent HS, and they have over 100 out for football, meanwhile Northside has seen number dip into the 50's just 3 or 4 years ago, and they are a 7a school.

I would bet that regional bias plays a bigger role in participation than socio-economic status.  Football is king in the South, Midwest, and Texas.  Not sure about the Northeast, West and Moutain states. 

Williamson County, Tennessee has the seventh highest per capita income in the U.S., but all of its high schools have thriving football programs.  Football is by far the most popular sport.  Brentwood High School has over 100 players from grades 10, 11 and 12.  They are wrapping up Spring practice now.  Rising freshmen from Brentwood and Lipscomb middle schools will don a BHS jersey for the first time at halftime of the Blue Gold game Thursday.  We expect about 50 of them.  They'll begin offseason workouts with the rest of the team in a couple of weeks.

Thirty-five seniors will dress out with the BHS varsity this Fall.  Most of them have not played a down of varsity football yet.  But they have worked year-round for the privilege of wearing the uniform for the last three years.  And they all show the physical results.  Many will play little even as seniors, but some of those will add the Bruin Excellence Award to their resumes for maintaining a 3.5 cummulative GPA and earning 100 hours of community service. 

Yes - there are some parents in this community who steer their sons to sports other than football.  Lacrosse seems to be the trendy alternative.  Baseball is a great game.  I loved it myself.  But both games have the potential for catastrophic injury.  And no sport is worse, in an affluent community, in my opinion, from a political, parent meddling, parent pressuring the player standpoint, than baseball.  Hockey certainly has its share of injuries, understandably so.  Hockey parents are an interesting group.  They share a passion for the game that may exceed the rest, even football.  But they are less political.  Hockey, Lacross and baseball are expensive, much more than football if your child travels, and that is now the norm in those sports. 

I don't see people suggesting football as the only way to supplement academics to produce well rounded men.  Kids should follow their passion and enjoy doing it.  My daughter gets the same benefits from cheerleading that my son gets from football.  They both watch their nutrition and stay in top condition. Probably no group at Brentwood High School works harder than the band.  You can't go anywhere near the school at 5:00 in the afternoon without hearing the CLICK CLICK CLICK of the metronome. 

Like someone said above, life is meant to be lived.  It is not without risks.  Football is one of the riskier sports, but it also the most high profile, funnest things to do on the planet for some people. Right or wrong, it carries an element of community pride in many areas of the country.  It provides a chance for glory.  It offers many benefits. Very few players suffer long-term, life-altering injuries from concussions.  Most people I know my age (55) and older who played for years somehow still manage to remember what we had for breakfast this morning.  I don't know if I want my son playing MLB in the NFL, but if he earns a college scholarship or wants to walk on somewhere, I'll be happy for him.  That doesn't mean his mom and I won't worry about him, but he'll be doing what he loves to do with our blessing.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 01:10:53 pm
I would absolutely let my kid play football. I played football since the age of 6 years old all the way through college. I played OL/DL in HS and OL in college. I never had a serious injury. The worst injury I ever had was bruised ribs and turf toe. Now that I'm 29 and I'm done with the game I do have terrible tendonitis in my knees and shoulder. When youre a kid you dont care about being safe or when you love something you don't care about it hurting you in the long run. I currently live in Dallas and before I started teaching and coaching here I worked for Baylor Orthopedics and our doctors saw hs, college, and professionally athletes as well as regular people. I will just say that 98 percent of our patients weren't football players. Its a dangerous world we live in and anything can cause a injury. I wont treat my child like the boy in the bubble.

No one is saying all football players end up with severe injuries. But, football does have more major injuries than any other sport. It also has more, and longer lasting effect from, head trauma. Much of which is just now being brought to light. I never played a down of football, and at 47 I have a torn up left shoulder from golf, a bad knee and bad ankle from HS basketball, and a bad elbow from throwing bp to my kids baseball teams for the last 12 years.

To me, the op's question is about weighing all the factors the adults in a kids life know about things against the kids desire to play. If the kid really wants to play the game, let them play. If they just want to be part of the team, be with their friends, but they are not really into the game itself, then no, they should not play ( for reasons other than just potential injury ). And they should never be forced to play, however the part of the post below plays into many kids being made to play:

  Football...means more to a community than just a  game.  Friday nights in Arkansas are an institution. 


When town pride is tied to the efforts of 15-18 yr old kids, we have a much larger issue.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 01:21:35 pm
They should never be forced to play, however the part of the post below plays into many kids being made to play:

When town pride is tied to the efforts of 15-18 yr old kids, we have a much larger issue.

Of course kids should never be forced to play, but that wasn't the OP's question.  It is whether you will force your son NOT to play.

If community pride is based upon football results, or any other sports results, then we have larger issues as a society, if you cling to that belief.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 01:24:18 pm
Of course kids should never be forced to play, but that wasn't the OP's question.  It is whether you will force your son NOT to play.

If community pride is based upon football results, or any other sports results, then we have larger issues as a society, if you cling to that belief.

i do not have issues with community pride, i do when the success of the high school football team is elevated above all else.  IE refusal to consolidate, or to expand and create a 2nd school .....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 01:26:51 pm
i do not have issues with community pride, i do when the success of the high school football team is elevated above all else.  IE refusal to consolidate, or to expand and create a 2nd school .....

I'm not aware of football driving those decisions but agree with you it certainly shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 01:28:45 pm
Of course kids should never be forced to play, but that wasn't the OP's question.  It is whether you will force your son NOT to play.

If community pride is based upon football results, or any other sports results, then we have larger issues as a society, if you cling to that belief.

It is a fine line though, and as I said I did it with my older son and baseball. I never ordered him to play, But I would say things like, " Oh right now you don't want to play, but once the season starts you'll be sad if you don't " or a dozen other ways I tried to make him think he wanted to play.

Trust me, there are many towns where the football teams means EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pigsfeat on May 09, 2017, 01:32:44 pm

Trust me, there are many towns where the football teams means EVERYTHING.
And states!
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 01:41:36 pm
And states!


And cities!  Been that way for thousands of years.  When humans lose their competitive nature that will change.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pigsfeat on May 09, 2017, 01:46:34 pm
And cities!  Been that way for thousands of years.  When humans lose their competitive nature that will change.
I agree! I wear my Razorback gear as well as the local HS gear where my kids played.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 01:50:12 pm
I'm not aware of football driving those decisions but agree with you it certainly shouldn't.

why do you think Bentonville only has one high school ? while Rogers, Springdale, Fayetteville have all expanded to additional schools and/or campus's
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Razorbackers on May 09, 2017, 02:10:13 pm
Do most people in those areas truly think their kid has the talent to get a football scholarship? Most Ar HS football stadiums are filled on Friday nights, over 200 schools have varsity football, but even counting every level of college football, how many get athletic scholarships each year? And that is in a small state like Arkansas.

In places like that, sports are seen as one of a very small number of ways to get out, especially when it comes to colleges.

An average student in a good, affluent area has way more opportunities in front of them than an average student from a poor area.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 02:11:13 pm
why do you think Bentonville only has one high school ? while Rogers, Springdale, Fayetteville have all expanded to additional schools and/or campus's

I don't know. I live in Nashville, Tennessee. If football is the driving force blocking decisions that benefit education, that is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 03:07:43 pm
I don't know. I live in Nashville, Tennessee. If football is the driving force blocking decisions that benefit education, that is a bad thing.

Well, it is in many cities in Ar. Last year in Fort Smith a plan for a 3rd HS was announced. The 1st public complaints all had to do with what it would do to the athletics at the two existing schools.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 09, 2017, 03:10:44 pm
why do you think Bentonville only has one high school ? while Rogers, Springdale, Fayetteville have all expanded to additional schools and/or campus's

Bentonville has two high schools, Bentonville and Bentonville West.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 03:18:58 pm
Bentonville has two high schools, Bentonville and Bentonville West.

Oh this school was built last year?  i knew they couldn't keep from adding at least another campus for to much longer they were bulging at the seams with kids
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 03:28:55 pm
Well, it is in many cities in Ar. Last year in Fort Smith a plan for a 3rd HS was announced. The 1st public complaints all had to do with what it would do to the athletics at the two existing schools.

I've heard that concern expressed here when new schools are built or rezoning takes place.  Nashville is exploding.  At least 3 new high schools have been built in our district in the last 10 years, but football is as competive as ever on a statewide basis.  I have a hard time believing football is the end all for administrators and commissioners in most cases.

I have read here many times that the number one problem with Arkansas high school football is too many school districts that are perpetuated by administrators protecting their turf. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 09, 2017, 03:39:39 pm
I've heard that concern expressed here when new schools are built or rezoning takes place.  Nashville is exploding.  At least 3 new high schools have been built in our district in the last 10 years, but football is as competive as ever on a statewide basis.  I have a hard time believing football is the end all for administrators and commissioners in most cases.

I have read here many times that the number one problem with Arkansas high school football is too many school districts that are perpetuated by administrators protecting their turf. 

Arkansas is just different then other places.  Each city is largely represented by one school (or at least was) and it was as you said very "nationalist/territorial".  When these towns grew the residents did what they could to prohibit the building of a 2nd school (or the opposite town shrinks because industry leaves or what not or they were just tiny to begin with and do not want to bus kids to some other place) because it almost always meant a down turn in the athletic performance of both schools, divide the fan base, player base etc. etc. 

Arkansas follows this behavior right up into the fandom for the Hogs.  They do not want another school competing for the very limited resources.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 09, 2017, 03:46:31 pm
Oh this school was built last year?  i knew they couldn't keep from adding at least another campus for to much longer they were bulging at the seams with kids

And B-ville west is horrible at every sport because they let the jrs and srs stay at b-ville high, BUT in another year or two we are likely to see what happened in springdale when they built har-ber. After the 1st couple of years, har-ber dominates and s-dale high is horrible in just about every sport.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Carl Lazlo on May 09, 2017, 04:56:22 pm
I'd tell him if he wants to play do it with a reckless abandon. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sevenof400 on May 09, 2017, 06:06:13 pm
I have girls so I won't likely have to make the decision.

Futbol has many of these same concerns and especially for girls with respect to head injuries and ACL's. 
Are your daughters old enough to play yet?   
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Jackrabbit Hog on May 09, 2017, 06:23:24 pm
When I was a young buck, I always said any son of mine would play football, no doubt about it.  When I had a son and he got old enough to play, I got lucky because he went to a small school that didn't have football.  I say lucky because I began having second thoughts as I watched him grow up.  I guess it boils down to this.....what is more significant to you, watching your son score the winning touchdown or watching him get carted off the field?  The older I got, the more my belief shifted to the latter.

He did become a heck of a baseball player though.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 09, 2017, 06:36:13 pm
When I was a young buck, I always said any son of mine would play football, no doubt about it.  When I had a son and he got old enough to play, I got lucky because he went to a small school that didn't have football.  I say lucky because I began having second thoughts as I watched him grow up.  I guess it boils down to this.....what is more significant to you, watching your son score the winning touchdown or watching him get carted off the field?  The older I got, the more my belief shifted to the latter.

He did become a heck of a baseball player though.

I guess I don't understand the hesitation on allowing them to play, but to each his own. My oldest played from the 5th grade on, although baseball was his better sport, and the only injury he had in high school was a sore back from baseball. My youngest when he was little dreamed every day of playing for the Hogs. When he was 9, it was discovered through some limping that the growth plate was dead above his left ankle. We've had to break his ankle a couple of times to do some work, and last year had to take out the growth plate in his good leg to slow it's growth down. He played baseball from 9yr old to 8th grade ball, and football in the 7th, but he's realized he's not going to be 6'3" like his older brother or me, and has become a scratch golfer. He still talks about football, but realizes at 5'9", and 130lbs, he won't be too good as a 10th grader in 6A football. So, you never know, what will or won't sideline you, or cause an injury.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Jackrabbit Hog on May 09, 2017, 06:42:31 pm
I guess I don't understand the hesitation on allowing them to play, but to each his own. My oldest played from the 5th grade on, although baseball was his better sport, and the only injury he had in high school was a sore back from baseball. My youngest when he was little dreamed every day of playing for the Hogs. When he was 9, it was discovered through some limping that the growth plate was dead above his left ankle. We've had to break his ankle a couple of times to do some work, and last year had to take out the growth plate in his good leg to slow it's growth down. He played baseball from 9yr old to 8th grade ball, and football in the 7th, but he's realized he's not going to be 6'3" like his older brother or me, and has become a scratch golfer. He still talks about football, but realizes at 5'9", and 130lbs, he won't be too good as a 10th grader in 6A football. So, you never know, what will or won't sideline you, or cause an injury.

Don't get me wrong, had he gone to a school with football (would have been Sylvan Hills) I would have supported him and been his biggest cheerleader.  But I think there would have always been just that little bit of concern about injury and since he was so into baseball, it all worked out fine.  I think he would have been a good football player, but he had a one-track baseball mind.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: oldhawg on May 09, 2017, 06:57:51 pm
In our case, it's all been said and done already.  And frankly, I am glad that our son started playing soccer at the age of five and played through college and beyond.  Soccer is not without its risks, but nothing compared to football. 

Oh, and I did play football myself through high school, and was lucky to have experienced only sprains, a deep hip-pointer, and a dislocated shoulder. (ouch). 

Also, my wife and I became knowledgeable, avid soccer fans. Even now we pick our favorites and watch World Cup, European Cup, and America Cup (Copa America) competition enthusiastically.  My son (now in his mid-thirties) and I are planning a trip to the next World Cup in Russia.  Doesn't matter what games we attend, the competition will be intense, and being there will be enjoyable.

Sorry, kinda got off track. I will step down off my soccer stand now, since so many turn there nose up at the sport.

However, if I ever have a grandson, I don't think I would want him to play football.  Although if he did, I would be right there cheering him on.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: luke hawg on May 09, 2017, 09:38:18 pm
I'd let my kid play for Bret Bielema
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 09:40:35 pm
I guess I don't understand the hesitation on allowing them to play, but to each his own. My oldest played from the 5th grade on, although baseball was his better sport, and the only injury he had in high school was a sore back from baseball. My youngest when he was little dreamed every day of playing for the Hogs. When he was 9, it was discovered through some limping that the growth plate was dead above his left ankle. We've had to break his ankle a couple of times to do some work, and last year had to take out the growth plate in his good leg to slow it's growth down. He played baseball from 9yr old to 8th grade ball, and football in the 7th, but he's realized he's not going to be 6'3" like his older brother or me, and has become a scratch golfer. He still talks about football, but realizes at 5'9", and 130lbs, he won't be too good as a 10th grader in 6A football. So, you never know, what will or won't sideline you, or cause an injury.

5'9" 130 is the perfect size for golf.  And he can play til he's 80.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 09, 2017, 09:44:03 pm
I'd tell him if he wants to play do it with a reckless abandon. 


^^^^^
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: dsgreen on May 09, 2017, 11:28:57 pm
I would be fine with just about any sport, but I would definitely try to discourage from playing football. It's definitely the most dangerous in terms of long term impact and CTE.  Even if you're not getting visibly injured or medically diagnosed concussions, there is a lot of damage happening, especially on the offensive line, which is where a son of mine would likely play.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 06:44:13 am
5'9" 130 is the perfect size for golf.  And he can play til he's 80.

Well, hopefully he's still growing some. When the surgeon removed his good growth plate last October after the state golf tournament, he said he had another 2"-3" of growing left. And shoot, why quit at 80, my Dad played until he was 92.
Title: Re: Would you let you kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on May 10, 2017, 06:48:49 am
When I was 15 years old, I was in off season basketball practice and slammed head first into the concrete wall underneath the goal (before there were protections pads). Long story short I had a brain bleed and was sent to ICU at Children's Hospital in Little Rock. The bleed finally stopped and I ended up alright. It was a complete freak accident but they do happen in all sports. I continued playing basketball all the way through my senior year knowing the risk of it happening again and causing more damage and it never did. Moral of the story accidents happen no matter the sport, it's just taking a risk. I will let me boys play if they want to, but, will make them aware of the possibilities of getting hurt.

I do not believe children can grasp the long term effects of the damage created. My 8 year old wants to play so badly but the risks are too great. Just not worth it. There are other sports where the risk aren't nearly as great.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: riccoar on May 10, 2017, 06:49:51 am
5'9" 130 is the perfect size for golf.  And he can play til he's 80.
If he stays away from porn stars when he becomes great, yes.  All kidding aside, let your children be themselves and experience life.  Don't push them to it, but never hold them back from it.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on May 10, 2017, 06:52:15 am
I live in Cabot. I will not allow my son to play until Jr High School (the Manning model) after the abomination of how little league football is handled in Cabot.  They had seven year olds moved up to play with 10 year olds in order to have the numbers necessary.  No thanks.

Each story is different, but my son will play football once proper coaching is more available.

Cabot resident as well. Yea, Cabot youth football is bad for kids.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on May 10, 2017, 06:54:42 am
All of you that have, or will later in this thread, point out accidents in basketball and cheer leading, and baseball and tiddly winks, those are accidents. Most basketball games see no one need to be helped off the court. It is rare for a football game in 7th grade or higher to not have at least one injury bad enough during play to require the player to be helped off the field. My kid played in a baseball tourney over the weekend, and not one player was injured in 13 games in his age group.

Football injuries are not usually freak accidents, they a a direct result of the fact that football is a collision sport. The post above about hitting their head on the concrete wall under the goal in a basketball game was a freak injury. I played 6 yrs in jrhs/hs and then 4 more in intramurals in college, and 3 after that in a competitive weekly rec league and never once was injured and only saw two broken bones in all that time, saw a broken collar bone from 2 guys colliding going for a loose ball, and a kid stepped on a foot and broke his ankle.

Last year I reffed about 40 football games from 6th grade through sr hs. Saw 3 kids have to be taken to the hospital immediately from the game, one with a head injury, one with a broken arm and another with a broken leg. I called over 100 basketball games, not one injury that even required the coach or trainer to come on the court. I've done about 50 baseball games so far this year, not one injury.

To the OP, would I let my kid play football, yes, if they wanted to. My oldest, about to graduate, played as a 7th grader. He played a lot ( ol and lb ) coaches were impressed with him, but he did not play in 8th grade because he didn't want to play again. My youngest is 14, 6'2 160 and has no desire to play football, and I am fine with that too.

Tommy?

If you know the risk and have seen it firsthand, why in the world would you allow your child to participate?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 07:02:28 am
  All kidding aside, let your children be themselves and experience life.  Don't push them to it, but never hold them back from it.

This^^^^^  100%    As to push them to it, taking them to Razorback games from an early age seems borderline "pushing" them, haha.

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: DeltaBoy on May 10, 2017, 08:24:20 am
I have girls so I won't likely have to make the decision.

Watch out for Girls sports and Cheer-leading they get things broken , bruised , tweaked and concussions.  We had a girl in Cheer that had to quit due to hitting her head once on the track during Jr High. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: factchecker on May 10, 2017, 08:31:04 am
Watch out for Girls sports and Cheer-leading they get things broken , bruised , tweaked and concussions.  We had a girl in Cheer that had to quit due to hitting her head once on the track during Jr High.

You are correct:

(http://infographicsmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Cheerleaders-Fly-High-And-So-Do-Their-Risks-Infographic-infographicsmania.jpg)

http://infographicsmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Cheerleaders-Fly-High-And-So-Do-Their-Risks-Infographic-infographicsmania.jpg
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 08:36:43 am
Tommy?

If you know the risk and have seen it firsthand, why in the world would you allow your child to participate?

I've seen baseball players tear up elbows, and basketball players tear up ankles, and as I said earlier my left shoulder is junk from playing golf. My point about football is those who claim it is no more dangerous than anything else are just wrong. It is easy for me to say I would let my kids play because my oldest is graduating hs, and my youngest shows no interest in playing football ( which drives the coaches at school crazy due to his size ) so i do not have to face that decision. IF my 14 yr old came to us and said he wanted to play football next year, my stance might very well change.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigE_23 on May 10, 2017, 11:04:33 am
Here's what I can't comprehend from the arguments contained throughout this thread from those in favor of letting your child participate in football...everyone keeps talking about ankles, elbows, shoulders, knees, etc. from other sports injuries and trying to compare the risks with football.

We're talking about your child's BRAIN. There is literally no comparison to any other sport.

We're not talking about injuries that cause you to wake up with soreness on a cold day. We're talking about potentially not being able to walk, talk, think, or learn. We're talking about stuff that could potentially impact your child's quality of life FOREVER.

I'm not willing to allow my son to take that gamble. I'm not implying that this somehow makes me a better parent than someone who let's their child play football...but I do think it makes me a more informed one.

I don't think my son's life will be less enjoyable IF he doesn't play football, but there is a risk that his life could be severely hindered BECAUSE he played football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 12:10:55 pm
Here's what I can't comprehend from the arguments contained throughout this thread from those in favor of letting your child participate in football...everyone keeps talking about ankles, elbows, shoulders, knees, etc. from other sports injuries and trying to compare the risks with football.

We're talking about your child's BRAIN. There is literally no comparison to any other sport.

We're not talking about injuries that cause you to wake up with soreness on a cold day. We're talking about potentially not being able to walk, talk, think, or learn. We're talking about stuff that could potentially impact your child's quality of life FOREVER.

I'm not willing to allow my son to take that gamble. I'm not implying that this somehow makes me a better parent than someone who let's their child play football...but I do think it makes me a more informed one.

I don't think my son's life will be less enjoyable IF he doesn't play football, but there is a risk that his life could be severely hindered BECAUSE he played football.

Anyone who does not see the head trauma on a different level than the other injuries just does not want to deal with it. There is no comparison. I have umpired literally a thousand games and never seen one head injury. The 2nd football game I ever called had 2 kids take head shots so hard they could not stand up, and a 3rd got up and went to the wrong bench.

But even the other injuries are worse and far more numerous in football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 12:21:54 pm
Here's what I can't comprehend from the arguments contained throughout this thread from those in favor of letting your child participate in football...everyone keeps talking about ankles, elbows, shoulders, knees, etc. from other sports injuries and trying to compare the risks with football.

We're talking about your child's BRAIN. There is literally no comparison to any other sport.

We're not talking about injuries that cause you to wake up with soreness on a cold day. We're talking about potentially not being able to walk, talk, think, or learn. We're talking about stuff that could potentially impact your child's quality of life FOREVER.

I'm not willing to allow my son to take that gamble. I'm not implying that this somehow makes me a better parent than someone who let's their child play football...but I do think it makes me a more informed one.

I don't think my son's life will be less enjoyable IF he doesn't play football, but there is a risk that his life could be severely hindered BECAUSE he played football.

Do you believe everything you read or do you form your opinions based upon your observations and common sense?

If I knew anyone who I thought was any less intelligent for having played football, I wouldn't have let my son play.  But I don't.

I had dinner last night with 7 men after we painted the field for a Spring football game.  One played football at Brown and is CEO for United Healthcare.  One is the brother of Arkansas All-American Jim Mabry.  He played at MTSU and is in pharmaceutical sales.  His son is committed to Notre Dame.  Another was Jim Bob Harris.  Jim Bob played free safety at Alabama and is now an executive with 3M.  Some of you might remember his interception near the end of Alabama's 24-9 victory over Arkansas in the 1980 Sugar Bowl.  The restt of us played for many years and have successful careers.  We're all in our fifties or older.  Another guy's son got an offer from Army yesterday.  While I was typing this my son texted me and said he has two letters today from Cornell.  He can add those to the letters from Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Brown.  He'll be at their camps in June.

Frank Broyles played football in a leather helmet with no facemask.  So did my grandfather who was an engineer.  Chuck Dicus, Jim Lindsey, Jerry Jones, Quinn Grovey - how many examples of successful, brilliant men do you need to see before you realize that there is not a great risk of life altering brain damage from playing football?  Aches and pains in old age, maybe.  You're gonna have 'em anyway.  Best way to avoid them is to stay active. 

Jim Bob Harris told me last year that most of the executives he has seen hired over the years at 3M have one of two things on their resume - college athletics or military experience.  I respect parents who won't let their kids play football out of fear of brain damage, but I think they're alarmists who ignore the clear evidence that football's benefits far outweigh the risks of that happening.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 10, 2017, 12:36:49 pm
Do you believe everything you read or do you form your opinions based upon your observations and common sense?

If I knew anyone who I thought was any less intelligent for having played football, I wouldn't have let my son play.  But I don't.

I had dinner last night with 7 men after we painted the field for a Spring football game.  One played football at Brown and is CEO for United Healthcare.  One is the brother of Arkansas All-American Jim Mabry.  He played at MTSU and is in pharmaceutical sales.  His son is committed to Notre Dame.  Another was Jim Bob Harris.  Jim Bob played free safety at Alabama and is now an executive with 3M.  Some of you might remember his interception near the end of Alabama's 24-9 victory over Arkansas in the 1980 Sugar Bowl.  The restt of us played for many years and have successful careers.  We're all in our fifties or older.  Another guy's son got an offer from Army yesterday.  While I was typing this my son texted me and said he has two letters today from Cornell.  He can add those to the letters from Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Brown.  He'll be at their camps in June.

Frank Broyles played football in a leather helmet with no facemask.  So did my grandfather who was an engineer.  Chuck Dicus, Jim Lindsey, Jerry Jones, Quinn Grovey - how many examples of successful, brilliant men do you need to see before you realize that there is not a great risk of life altering brain damage from playing football?  Aches and pains in old age, maybe.  You're gonna have 'em anyway.  Best way to avoid them is to stay active. 

Jim Bob Harris told me last year that most of the executives he has seen hired over the years at 3M have one of two things on their resume - college athletics or military experience.  I respect parents who won't let their kids play football out of fear of brain damage, but I think they're alarmists who ignore the clear evidence that football's benefits far outweigh the risks of that happening.

I base my opinions on more than just a few business success stories coming from ex football players.....there are far more examples of those crippled from the sport.

I love football, but let's not put our head in the sand
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hogs-n-Roses on May 10, 2017, 12:40:01 pm
Yes but then Al Bundy is my example. It will improve your sons sex life 67%. JK
real answer is I don't know as I have all girls. One of which has had to quit cheer cuz of knee and back injuries. Also had to quit competitive dance for the same reasons. Nearly all of her cheer friends have injuries they obtained during cheer n dance. Most of her friends injuries started out minor but ended much more serious as the reinjuries kept happening. Lots ended in knee/ankle surgeries. Some just chronic pain,all the time. The ones still in it stay cuz of peer/ego problems. They can't let go of their social status. Parents get caught up in that also.IE Some poor parenting is going on in the dance/cheer worlds. I have made mine get out of it and it was a major fight. She has since had back surgery and prolly shud have knee surgery. I made lots of parents/coaches/instructors/teachers so mad they have taken me out of their circles of which I was apart for 12 years. Oh well!
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 12:40:18 pm
Do you believe everything you read or do you form your opinions based upon your observations and common sense?

If I knew anyone who I thought was any less intelligent for having played football, I wouldn't have let my son play.  But I don't.

I had dinner last night with 7 men after we painted the field for a Spring football game.  One played football at Brown and is CEO for United Healthcare.  One is the brother of Arkansas All-American Jim Mabry.  He played at MTSU and is in pharmaceutical sales.  His son is committed to Notre Dame.  Another was Jim Bob Harris.  Jim Bob played free safety at Alabama and is now an executive with 3M.  Some of you might remember his interception near the end of Alabama's 24-9 victory over Arkansas in the 1980 Sugar Bowl.  The restt of us played for many years and have successful careers.  We're all in our fifties or older.  Another guy's son got an offer from Army yesterday.  While I was typing this my son texted me and said he has two letters today from Cornell.  He can add those to the letters from Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Brown.  He'll be at their camps in June.

Frank Broyles played football in a leather helmet with no facemask.  So did my grandfather who was an engineer.  Chuck Dicus, Jim Lindsey, Jerry Jones, Quinn Grovey - how many examples of successful, brilliant men do you need to see before you realize that there is not a great risk of life altering brain damage from playing football?  Aches and pains in old age, maybe.  You're gonna have 'em anyway.  Best way to avoid them is to stay active. 

Jim Bob Harris told me last year that most of the executives he has seen hired over the years at 3M have one of two things on their resume - college athletics or military experience.  I respect parents who won't let their kids play football out of fear of brain damage, but I think they're alarmists who ignore the clear evidence that football's benefits far outweigh the risks of that happening.

And most guys who want to downplay the head injury part have a couple things in common. They are older and grew up playing in a time when the answer to everything was run it off, coaches didn't let you have water during practice, and/or they think football is the highest test of manhood  short of going into armed combat.

No one is saying that playing football does not have some benefits to some people, quite the opposite has been acknowledged by many in this thread. But many of the things people point to - mental toughness, team work, etc - can be found in other sports where you are not colliding with other large humans over and over and over, day after day after day.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 12:42:25 pm
Yes but then Al Bundy is my example. It will improve your sons sex life 67%. JK
real answer is I don't know as I have all girls. One of which has had to quit cheer cuz of knee and back injuries. Also had to quit competitive dance for the same reasons. Nearly all of her cheer friends have injuries they obtained during cheer n dance. Most of her friends injuries started out minor but ended much more serious as the reinjuries kept happening. Lots ended in knee/ankle surgeries. Some just chronic pain,all the time. The ones still in it stay cuz of peer/ego problems. They can't let go of their social status. Parents get caught up in that also.IE Some poor parenting is going on in the dance/cheer worlds. I have made mine get out of it and it was a major fight. She has since had back surgery and prolly shud have knee surgery. I made lots of parents/coaches/instructors/teachers so mad they have taken me out of their circles of which I was apart for 12 years. Oh well!

cheer parents and girls softball parents are another level of crazy that I am glad, since I have 2 boys, I get to view from afar. But none of those injuries you mention will impact your child's brain function.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 12:50:15 pm
I base my opinions on more than just a few business success stories coming from ex football players.....there are far more examples of those crippled from the sport.

I love football, but let's not put our head in the sand

So, you're saying there are more crippled up football players leaving high school, than not? I'd have to see evidence on that, my observations from playing and watching our local high school the past 30 years wouldn't support that. Now, I realize you were talking about ex-college or NFL players, but how many make it that far?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 10, 2017, 12:50:51 pm
This is an interesting debate on multiple levels. It's deeply rooted in fandom and male masculinity. It's one of those conversations that will always be divided. For a lot of men, sacrificing your body for football, even a game, is psychologically akin to a soldier sacrificing his life for his country. It's a barometer for how tough you are and how willing you are to achieve a goal. It's about mental and physical toughness, as well as your makeup as an individual. It makes the conversation even more complicated in that football has now, in all likelihood, become America's game. So masculinity, self sacrifice and American identity are all interwoven into this conversation.

At the end of the day, this conversation will continue as long as men, young and old, feel the need to benchmark their male identity through trials of physical endurance. And I'm guessing that's not going to stop for a very, very long time.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hogs-n-Roses on May 10, 2017, 01:02:30 pm
cheer parents and girls softball parents are another level of crazy that I am glad, since I have 2 boys, I get to view from afar. But none of those injuries you mention will impact your child's brain function.
I agree but they do impact my brain function and that got muches better when I made the right parenting move and got her out of it. 2 years down the road and both of us are of the same mindset. Now she agrees that it was overly dangerous for her and the peer pressures she was going thru with those ruthless egos(both the athletes and parents) are much less this way than being involved. I had no idea what all she had been going thru. God works in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigE_23 on May 10, 2017, 01:10:15 pm
Do you believe everything you read or do you form your opinions based upon your observations and common sense?

Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't it be both/and??

The stuff I'm reading is coming from scientific research conducted by the leading researchers in their field.

Common sense tells me that the players from the leather-head era weren't the athletes that we see today or even in the last 25-30 years. Frank Broyles didn't play football with freaks of nature that weigh 230+ lbs and run the forty in 4.5 seconds. Just using what little common sense I have, I would guess that for every 5000 Jim Harris millionaire success stories, there's a paralyzed Eric Lagrand. Common sense tells me that the game is progressing faster than the science can keep up with and the athletes are getting stronger and faster at younger ages...so things are going to get worse before they get better.

What I see happening on a regular basis is some horror story of a former NFL player losing his mind and killing people before he then kills himself, or a Junior Seau-type suicide...then we find out that the families of these men donated their brains to scientific studies that in turn reveal that these guys have the signs of massive head trauma resulting from football.

I'm happy for your boy...I really am. Congratulations to you and your family! (no sarcasm I mean that sincerely)

But what about the family in Ohio that buried their son last year after a football related head injury during a HS game? Or the family in Texas? Or Louisiana? These weren't all-American athletes who got injured in high-impact D1 games...these were just ordinary HS kids playing the same game I grew up playing. One of those deaths resulted from an injury in a JV game. We can't ignore the science or what's happening right in front of our faces. To do so rejects common sense.

I'm going to mess up a lot as a parent...I know this because I already have, but I'm going to continue to do my best to protect both of my beautiful kids. I'm not going to insulate myself from reality. Hopefully and by God's grace, I can be both informed and exercise common sense.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 02:02:12 pm
I base my opinions on more than just a few business success stories coming from ex football players.....there are far more examples of those crippled from the sport.

I love football, but let's not put our head in the sand

Dude - you're one of my favorite posters.  Always witty, and you know the game when you're serious.  But that is just pure nonsense.  We can all agree that players are crippled by football every year.  BUT - the numbers of those who play and go on to long, productive, happy lives FAR outnumber those who are crippled.  If major, life-altering injuries were the norm in football, no one would play it.  But they're not.  They are RARE!!!

Anyone with Google can find plenty of articles like these:

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html (http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html)

It doesn't take a study like this one to know that concussions are bad.  Multiple concussions are worse.  Concussions occurring before the brain recovers from a previous concussion are very dangerous.  Football increases the risk of concussions.  Therefore, football is bad.  Right?  Maybe.  About 30% of respondents to this poll appear to agree. 

Do the benefits of football outweigh the risk?  For me that's the question.  Maybe rice is right.  My son went to his first football game (Titans) before he could walk and has been to 100 since.  He went to his first Razorbacks game when he was about 5.  I spend Saturdays in front of the television watching college football.  It's obvious from my history here that I'm a Razorbacks fanatic.  I never once said, "Matthew - you should play football", but is it any wonder he started pestering me to play at the age of 5?  Am I sorry thus far he's played?  No.  I've never seen any indication that he doesn't love it.  He spends hours with his friends picking fantasy teams and keeping up with them. He's healthy, is in top condition, is very conscious of his nutrition, hangs out with a great group of teammates, and makes exceptionally good grades.  He volunteers regularly.  He visits the elderly.  He plays basketball with mentally challenged kids.  He feeds the homeless once a month.  All of that is part of his football culture.  If he suffers a life-threatening injury from the game I will not know what to do.  But seeing what football has meant to him for ten years, I would let him play again in a heartbeat.

I would also argue that football, and athletic scholarships in general, have improved the quality of life and communities for minorities.  I have to believe that based on numbers only, football has accounted for more college degrees from athletic scholarships than any other sport.  It creates many jobs.  I went recently to a fundraiser where the Titans raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the Make a Wish Foundation.  I talked to several of them that night.  I've represented half a dozen NFL players over the years.  To a person, they were all clear-headed, intelligent, well-educated people. 

I understand the risk.  It is there.  What I don't understand is hyperbole and alarmists with an agenda who are more opposed to the violence of the game itself and use the risk of injury to mask their real problem with the game, which is the violence.  Not suggesting you're one of those, but many are.  Football is a violent game, but the violence itself is not driven by the intent to harm.  It is driven by the nature of the game.  You hit hard within the rules and shake hands when it's over.  During the game you have fun.  It's unlike anything else you'll ever experience.  Maybe it's not that way for everyone, but for the few who are fortunate enough to run through the "A", I'll guarantee you it is. 

I simply can't understand why a parent would prohibit a child from participating in a sport they're passionate about.  I can understand limiting it by age.  But to forbid them to play at all anytime is a disservice to the child.  They can only play while they're under your control.  The window closes quickly for team sports.  As my daughter says "YOLO".         

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 02:10:59 pm
This is an interesting debate on multiple levels. It's deeply rooted in fandom and male masculinity. It's one of those conversations that will always be divided. For a lot of men, sacrificing your body for football, even a game, is psychologically akin to a soldier sacrificing his life for his country. It's a barometer for how tough you are and how willing you are to achieve a goal. It's about mental and physical toughness, as well as your makeup as an individual. It makes the conversation even more complicated in that football has now, in all likelihood, become America's game. So masculinity, self sacrifice and American identity are all interwoven into this conversation.

At the end of the day, this conversation will continue as long as men, young and old, feel the need to benchmark their male identity through trials of physical endurance. And I'm guessing that's not going to stop for a very, very long time.

So far I've avoided the philosophical, but you're right to some extent.  But you can present your thesis in a way that carries a positive or negative connotation.  You also ignore the game itself.  Do men play football to prove their masculinity, or do they play it to develop their masculinity and because they love the game itself?

A similar question is this - why is football America's game?  Why do communities take pride in victory?  Why do residents of Michigan care whether the Wolverines beat Ohio State?  Is football, and college football in particular, a surrogate for the kind of real battles that destroy life and property?  To some extent maybe it is.  Does that make it bad?   
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 10, 2017, 02:14:38 pm
So far I've avoided the philosophical, but you're right to some extent.  But you can present your thesis in a way that carries a positive or negative connotation.  You also ignore the game itself.  Do men play football to prove their masculinity, or do they play it to develop their masculinity and because they love the game itself?

A similar question is this - why is football America's game?  Why do communities take pride in victory?  Why do residents of Michigan care whether the Wolverines beat Ohio State?  Is football, and college football in particular, a surrogate for the kind of real battles that destroy life and property?  To some extent maybe it is.  Does that make it bad?   

it makes it good and bad.  I think that is what this thread is about.  for so long no one questioned the health risks of football.  Mainly because so many were led to believe that the only real risks were of the non brain variety.  So people were like " you can break your leg anywhere doing anything".  But only the last decade or so as players have literally shot themselves in the chest in the hopes of having their brain tested for a god aweful disease because the "powers that be" did not want to spend the $$$ or risk losing the $$$.

You can both love football as i do i have done all the things you mentioned, and realize that someone(s) did some messed up stuff in hiding the effects of CTE.  And i am messed up about that enough to possibly not encourage my son to play if he doesn't want to, in the end we are all responsible for our choices, it is just preferable to actually know what you are choosing when you do it.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 02:19:49 pm

I simply can't understand why a parent would prohibit a child from participating in a sport they're passionate about.  I can understand limiting it by age.  But to forbid them to play at all anytime is a disservice to the child.  They can only play while they're under your control.  The window closes quickly for team sports.  As my daughter says "YOLO".         



What age are we talking about them being passionate about it? 5? 7? 9? 11? My 5 yr old was "passionate" about being a fireman, but we didn't let him go around fighting fires ( yes I realize that is an extreme reach ). We prohibit kids from driving and riding motorcycles until they are old enough. We prohibit them from doing lots of things because they are dangerous.

ON your point about scholarships - there are 3250 ( 130 schools 25 each ) fbs level scholarships awarded for football each year. Throw in the fcs and lets be real generous and make it 7K total. in a decade thats only 10k scholarships in a sport that is played annually by over 1mil players at the 11 man high school level. Break that down by class and thats approx 250k hs srs each yr playing 11 man football. in a 10 yr span thats 2.5 mil of which 70k, at the most, get football scholarships. Thats 3%.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 10, 2017, 02:36:04 pm
So, you're saying there are more crippled up football players leaving high school, than not? I'd have to see evidence on that, my observations from playing and watching our local high school the past 30 years wouldn't support that. Now, I realize you were talking about ex-college or NFL players, but how many make it that far?

I would love to see study that tracks the number of  hs football players that still have lingering injuries after graduating...

Would be interesting....

On another note, shouldnt the school cover the cost of those surgeries if directly related to playing for the school?

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 03:09:23 pm
What age are we talking about them being passionate about it? 5? 7? 9? 11? My 5 yr old was "passionate" about being a fireman, but we didn't let him go around fighting fires ( yes I realize that is an extreme reach ). We prohibit kids from driving and riding motorcycles until they are old enough. We prohibit them from doing lots of things because they are dangerous.

ON your point about scholarships - there are 3250 ( 130 schools 25 each ) fbs level scholarships awarded for football each year. Throw in the fcs and lets be real generous and make it 7K total. in a decade thats only 10k scholarships in a sport that is played annually by over 1mil players at the 11 man high school level. Break that down by class and thats approx 250k hs srs each yr playing 11 man football. in a 10 yr span thats 2.5 mil of which 70k, at the most, get football scholarships. Thats 3%.

The actual number of high school football players who attend college on a football scholarship is less than 2% based on a study I saw recently.  But that isn't the point.  The point is that, over time, the number of minority athletes who have earned college degrees from football scholarships has improved minority communities. 

I already said my son begged to play when he was 5.  His mother and I refused to let him play until he was 8.  I started playing at 8 and so did a lot of my friends.  A lot of Matthew's teammates here started at 5.  Some of the best did, in fact.  I think Rawleigh Williams started at 5.  I happen to think that's too early, but not because of the risk of injury as much as because I don't think 5 year olds are emotionally ready to put on pads and hit each other.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 10, 2017, 03:36:59 pm
Bp, please read


http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/

Just came out....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 03:39:17 pm
The actual number of high school football players who attend college on a football scholarship is less than 2% based on a study I saw recently.  But that isn't the point.  The point is that, over time, the number of minority athletes who have earned college degrees from football scholarships has improved minority communities. 

I already said my son begged to play when he was 5.  His mother and I refused to let him play until he was 8.  I started playing at 8 and so did a lot of my friends.  A lot of Matthew's teammates here started at 5.  Some of the best did, in fact.  I think Rawleigh Williams started at 5.  I happen to think that's too early, but not because of the risk of injury as much as because I don't think 5 year olds are emotionally ready to put on pads and hit each other.

The scholarship angle just does not fly. While a fbs school gives out 25, at most, football scholarships annually, they give out hundreds of academic scholarships, and that does not even count the financial aid available from private and public groups. So, instead of pinning their hopes of college on a long shot chance at a athletic scholarship, they could invest that time in academics.

% is way too young. 8, imo is too young. I do not think, in a sport where everyone will agree that proper technique is paramount to avoiding some serious injuries, that kids should play tackle outside the realm of school ball. Most, not all mind you, but most youth league coaches just are not trained enough to teach those proper techniques. From what I have seen all they do is find the biggest fastest kid, and tell everyone else to block for him.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 04:25:07 pm
I would love to see study that tracks the number of  hs football players that still have lingering injuries after graduating...

Would be interesting....

On another note, shouldnt the school cover the cost of those surgeries if directly related to playing for the school?



After they've left the high school, nope. When you play, you're covered by the school's catastrophic insurance policy, and maybe some other insurance.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 10, 2017, 04:26:44 pm
The scholarship angle just does not fly. While a fbs school gives out 25, at most, football scholarships annually, they give out hundreds of academic scholarships, and that does not even count the financial aid available from private and public groups. So, instead of pinning their hopes of college on a long shot chance at a athletic scholarship, they could invest that time in academics.

% is way too young. 8, imo is too young. I do not think, in a sport where everyone will agree that proper technique is paramount to avoiding some serious injuries, that kids should play tackle outside the realm of school ball. Most, not all mind you, but most youth league coaches just are not trained enough to teach those proper techniques. From what I have seen all they do is find the biggest fastest kid, and tell everyone else to block for him.

I've kinda stayed out of this one, but as for eight year olds, not sure how much they're actually gonna hurt each other or themselves. I imagine every pee wee program teaches proper tackling these days, too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 10, 2017, 04:42:33 pm
I imagine every pee wee program teaches proper tackling these days, too.

you'd have to imagine it, cause it ain't happening.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 10, 2017, 04:44:51 pm
you'd have to imagine it, cause it ain't happening.

Aren't they 'required' to?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on May 10, 2017, 04:47:08 pm
I've kinda stayed out of this one, but as for eight year olds, not sure how much they're actually gonna hurt each other or themselves. I imagine every pee wee program teaches proper tackling these days, too.

You'd be wrong. Some little leagues are so desperate for coaches that they'll throw any clown out there to coach. Some kids wear helmets that do not fit properly.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 10, 2017, 04:51:39 pm
You'd be wrong. Some little leagues are so desperate for coaches that they'll throw any clown out there to coach. Some kids wear helmets that do not fit properly.

Well, actually that doesn't surprise me. Sounds like not much has changed since my peewee coaching days.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 04:54:33 pm
Aren't they 'required' to?

Yes, they teach "heads up" tackling, or at least everywhere but Ft Smith.....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 10, 2017, 04:59:45 pm
Yes, they teach "heads up" tackling, or at least everywhere but Ft Smith.....

Year before last there was a two or three part segment on the local ABC affiliate sports that covered FL youth football and safety. Safer tackling techniques was a big part of it. Teach them from a very early age and hopefully injuries would go down as they move up, or at least that is the idea.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 10, 2017, 05:01:45 pm
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html

There were 15 brains from former HS athletes, and in 6 of them, there was at least stage 1 CTE. However, several of them were also in the military including explosives work.

Every brain that had CTE, the person the brain belonged to participated in some action that would cause head trauma.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-football-brain-changes-20161128-story.html

This is a really interesting study. Followed extensively 24 HS players for a single year with the fancy accelerometers in their helmets and did a brain scan before and after a single season. None of the 24 students suffered any concussions during the season. However, in the brain scans afterwards, there were physiological changes to the brain strongly correlated to the amount of trauma the sensors registered throughout the season.

This is just 1 season of HS level football and none of them even had a concussion.

For both stories, the researchers are quick to point out that the overall research is too early to make any broad conclusions. In the 2nd link, it was taken right after the season was finished. Perhaps the brains self-healed in the months of the off-season of would go back to their original physiology after quitting football. For the first, there's a lot of factors that can go into things.

Finally

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/study-956-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players-tested-positive-for-cte/

This is a pretty alarming study. Of 91 deceased NFL players who donated their bodies to science, 87 had CTE. That is 95.6%. Maybe players more likely to feel like they had CTE would have been more likely to donate their bodies to science as well as being more likely to be dead.

Again, such a study like this doesn't conclude that 95+ percent of NFL players will get CTE. It takes at least a decade and often longer for research to really start to get some consensus and a good baseline. However, the initial and preliminary results are not good.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Karma on May 10, 2017, 05:02:49 pm
At this point, arguing that football does not make one more susceptible to a brain injury is like arguing that cigarettes aren't bad for you.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 10, 2017, 05:17:44 pm
So far I've avoided the philosophical, but you're right to some extent.  But you can present your thesis in a way that carries a positive or negative connotation.  You also ignore the game itself.  Do men play football to prove their masculinity, or do they play it to develop their masculinity and because they love the game itself? 

I'd venture to say that men play football to both validate their masculinity on some level and to develop their masculinity. I think those two can be intertwined. I absolutely believe people play football because they love the game. Games in general feed a very addictive section of the brain that allows humans to problem solve very quickly. When you succeed at solving a problem under duress, it sends a chemical response to the brain that is addictive. Winning, for the most part, in any avenue, is addictive. At a basic level, that's why we love to play games.

A similar question is this - why is football America's game?  Why do communities take pride in victory?  Why do residents of Michigan care whether the Wolverines beat Ohio State?  Is football, and college football in particular, a surrogate for the kind of real battles that destroy life and property?  To some extent maybe it is.  Does that make it bad?   

I believe subconsciously that all sports are a quasi simulation of warfare. It just so happens that football is one of the most physical sports, which lends itself to warring metaphors. It's certainly the most popular sport, currently, that involves hurting your opponent. Boxing used to be, but boxing has lost favor. Probably partially for how Ali has deteriorated. The irony, of course, being that both sports are link to head trauma. MMA is becoming very popular. But I digress.

Sports are like any other regional marker; they give identity and pride to a community. The atheletes allow us to vicariously live through their exploits. When they win, it gives us something to puff our chest about. Winning lets small communities feel much bigger. I'd suppose that feeds a similar addiction. I'm speaking of fandom, of course.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 10, 2017, 05:27:55 pm
At this point, arguing that football does not make one more susceptible to a brain injury is like arguing that cigarettes aren't bad for you.

Not quite.

At this point in the analogy, we've noticed a lot of people who died of lung cancer also smoked. We are still trying to figure out how many people who smoke will get lung cancer. What in cigarettes or other tobacco products would lead to a causal relationship? However, we would be seeing how smoking decreases lung capacity and can damage the tissue with just a minimal amount of smoking.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 05:35:42 pm
Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't it be both/and??

The stuff I'm reading is coming from scientific research conducted by the leading researchers in their field.

Common sense tells me that the players from the leather-head era weren't the athletes that we see today or even in the last 25-30 years. Frank Broyles didn't play football with freaks of nature that weigh 230+ lbs and run the forty in 4.5 seconds. Just using what little common sense I have, I would guess that for every 5000 Jim Harris millionaire success stories, there's a paralyzed Eric Lagrand. Common sense tells me that the game is progressing faster than the science can keep up with and the athletes are getting stronger and faster at younger ages...so things are going to get worse before they get better.

What I see happening on a regular basis is some horror story of a former NFL player losing his mind and killing people before he then kills himself, or a Junior Seau-type suicide...then we find out that the families of these men donated their brains to scientific studies that in turn reveal that these guys have the signs of massive head trauma resulting from football.

I'm happy for your boy...I really am. Congratulations to you and your family! (no sarcasm I mean that sincerely)

But what about the family in Ohio that buried their son last year after a football related head injury during a HS game? Or the family in Texas? Or Louisiana? These weren't all-American athletes who got injured in high-impact D1 games...these were just ordinary HS kids playing the same game I grew up playing. One of those deaths resulted from an injury in a JV game. We can't ignore the science or what's happening right in front of our faces. To do so rejects common sense.

I'm going to mess up a lot as a parent...I know this because I already have, but I'm going to continue to do my best to protect both of my beautiful kids. I'm not going to insulate myself from reality. Hopefully and by God's grace, I can be both informed and exercise common sense.

Good post.  I agree all of us should be both informed and exercise common sense when making decisions related to the welfare of our children.  You've probably seen the report above asserting that cheerleading is the number one sport causing concussions other than football.  Well, my daughter is a cheerleader.  She is just as devoted to her sport as my son. 

Football deaths have actually dropped substantially since the mid-70's, when a 1976 rule change made it illegal to make initial contact with the head and face while blocking and tackling.  The change was prompted by an American Football Coaches Association study called the Annual Football Injury Survey that has been done annually since 1931, when over 40 players were killed playing football, the most since Teddy Roosevelt outlawed college football in 1905.  Here's a link to a comprehensive report for the years 1931-2013:

http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/ (https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf[url=http://Tables beginning at page 23 of the report show direct and indirect deaths by year from football since 1966.  Twenty-six deaths were directly related to football in 1968, the most since 1931.

For me, the most sobering statistic is that almost ALL of the deaths directly and indirectly related to football occur at the high school level.  It is sobering personally because my son will be a senior.  To make matters worse, he just got moved to strong safety after playing CB for ten years.  I won't discourage him from playing for the reasons I've already stated, but I will be that much more worried during games.

With numbers for football deaths at historic lows, why do football-related injuries and deaths suddenly feel like an epidemic?  Carly Day, a sports medicine physician at the Cleveland Clinic and Chairwoman of the public relations subcommittee for the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine gives her opinion in an article available at this link:

[url=http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/)

"I think cases are getting more national attention than they used to by conventional news outlets and there is also more grassroots exposure on social media to the emotional aspects of these cases ... parents posting on Facebook from the hospital, etc."

In summary, the debate in this thread is healthy in my opinion, both for those who would allow their children to play football and for those who won't.  My testimony has been personal.  My experiences have been almost entirely positive.  I have seen football positively influence the lives of many men.  But that is not to detract from the dozen or more high school families devastated every year by the death of a player.  That is not a denial that football does, in some instances, cause long-term neurological damage. 

Sports are dangerous to some extent.  Statistics about other sports are posted in this thread.  Football, any way you want to view it, is the most dangerous of the popular school sports.  But it's a matter of degree.  How do you decide whether to let your 8-year-old play baseball, where more deaths occur at that age than football, or football?  Do you simply look at numbers and determine which sport your child should play based upon risk of injury?  What if your child is particularly well suited physically for one sport over the other?  What if they show promise in a more dangerous sport than they do in a less dangerous sport? What do THEY want to play?

At the end of the day, humans are risk takers.  We are competitive, and we are prone to violence.  Most sports have some element of those human characteristics.  If you're going to let your child play sports at all, it makes sense to me to let them play what they want to play at some point and then support them in their favorites with the best means available to the family.  Keep Advil and Ace bandages on hand and expect to visit the emergency room now and then.
 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 05:46:06 pm
Dang, that's Whoiskid worthy, lol. Lots of information for all in there.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 05:58:45 pm
Dang, that's Whoiskid worthy, lol. Lots of information for all in there.

Dang, I just got rid of a bunch of stuff trying to clean up that last post, but here's a link to the report I mentioned:

https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf (https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf)
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sevenof400 on May 10, 2017, 07:12:05 pm
....

You mentioned Jim Bob Harris in an earlier post - how is he doing these days? 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 07:18:56 pm
You mentioned Jim Bob Harris in an earlier post - how is he doing these days? 

Very well. Great guy who loves being around the game when he can. Coaches dbacks for BHS freshman as a volunteer.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: tophawg19 on May 10, 2017, 08:02:24 pm
This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 10, 2017, 08:10:05 pm
This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too

Concussion Rates per Sport

The below numbers indicate the amount of sports concussions taking place per 100,000 athletic exposures. An athletic exposure is defined as one athlete participating in one organized high school athletic practice or competition, regardless of the amount of time played.

Football: 64 -76.8
Boys' ice hockey: 54
Girl's soccer: 33
Boys' lacrosse: 40 - 46.6
Girls' lacrosse: 31 - 35
Boys' soccer: 19 - 19.2
Boys' wrestling: 22 - 23.9
Girls' basketball: 18.6 - 21
Girls' softball: 16 - 16.3
Boys' basketball: 16 - 21.2
Girls' field hockey: 22 - 24.9
Cheerleading: 11.5 to 14
Girls' volleyball: 6 - 8.6
Boys' baseball: Between 4.6 - 5
Girls' gymnastics: 7
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 10, 2017, 08:12:06 pm
This is why we have the X-box generation . Kids who are over weight and in poor shape .Girls gymnastics is far more dangerous than football . They have 0 protection while flipping on a 4 inch Hardwood bar. I don't know anyone who ever had any brain damage from football . wonder if anyone else here does ? It's easy to hit your head playing basketball , especially during rebounds and lay ups . A 90 Mph Fast ball to the head is going to cause damage too

This right here... this was my previous point about masculinity and sport wrapped into an emotional debate that clouds reason.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hoggish1 on May 10, 2017, 08:31:53 pm
No, not in the womb.  Play football in high school, not in 3rd grade...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 10, 2017, 09:33:19 pm
All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 09:55:57 pm
Bp, please read


http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/

Just came out....

Other than the doctor's quote that research took his breath away, I don't see that article as having any substance.  The problem many of us are having with the research is based upon our own experience.  Where are all the demented former football players?  Maybe I'm one.  Lol. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: jvanhorn on May 10, 2017, 09:58:13 pm
Interesting poll.  Shows why [as all divorce lawyers know] over 50 per cent of the people that get married shouldn't and, now, with this poll, why over 50 per cent of the people that have children shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 10, 2017, 10:10:32 pm
Other than the doctor's quote that research took his breath away, I don't see that article as having any substance.  The problem many of us are having with the research is based upon our own experience.  Where are all the demented former football players?  Maybe I'm one.  Lol.

The problem is thinking you have to be demented to have CTE.

•   In Stage I, headaches and issues related to attention and concentration were common;

•   In Stage II, the symptoms expanded to include depression, explosivity and short-term memory impairment;

•   In Stage III, reported symptoms included cognitive impairment and problems with executive functions, specifically planning, organization, multitasking and judgment.

•   In Stage IV, there was evidence of full-blown dementia (i.e., memory and cognitive impairments severe enough to impact daily living).
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hamsam on May 10, 2017, 10:15:01 pm
Answer to the question. Yep!
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: FANONTHEHILL on May 10, 2017, 10:19:04 pm
I have never forced my kids to participate in any activity.  But I've always told them that whatever activities they choose to participate in will get their best effort.  My kids have done baseball, soccer, basketball, mountain biking, band, and football.  I've seen severe injuries in all the sports listed.  Most importantly, they were, and are, fully aware that they are also expected to excel in the classroom.  So yes, I let them play football.

If you don't want your son to play football, I understand and respect your decision.  But if that's the case, one thing you may need to do is make some changes.  Do not glamorize the game.  Don't watch the game.  Don't talk about the game.   Stay away from things like Hogville.  Your interest can spark a fire in your kids. I hauled my sons to game after game when they were young. We watched game after game on TV. I allowed them to wear Razorback gear and they looked up to the players and attended fan events.  How could I then tell him not to participate in something that they were raised to admire?  A little boy that started out as #12 at 3 years old can become #61 15 years later.  I pray every day that he stays healthy, but he will be the first to tell you he would do anything for his 104 brothers on the team.  He loves the game.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 10, 2017, 10:26:31 pm
The problem is thinking you have to be demented to have CTE.

•   In Stage I, headaches and issues related to attention and concentration were common;

•   In Stage II, the symptoms expanded to include depression, explosivity and short-term memory impairment;

•   In Stage III, reported symptoms included cognitive impairment and problems with executive functions, specifically planning, organization, multitasking and judgment.

•   In Stage IV, there was evidence of full-blown dementia (i.e., memory and cognitive impairments severe enough to impact daily living).

No.  The problem is I'm 55, played 10 years of football, and know many men my age and older who did the same and have no signs of CTE.  In fact, we've somehow managed to be very successful adults in spite of having played football. 

But of course, there's always someone smarter than we are.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigE_23 on May 10, 2017, 11:09:01 pm
Good post.  I agree all of us should be both informed and exercise common sense when making decisions related to the welfare of our children.  You've probably seen the report above asserting that cheerleading is the number one sport causing concussions other than football.  Well, my daughter is a cheerleader.  She is just as devoted to her sport as my son. 

Football deaths have actually dropped substantially since the mid-70's, when a 1976 rule change made it illegal to make initial contact with the head and face while blocking and tackling.  The change was prompted by an American Football Coaches Association study called the Annual Football Injury Survey that has been done annually since 1931, when over 40 players were killed playing football, the most since Teddy Roosevelt outlawed college football in 1905.  Here's a link to a comprehensive report for the years 1931-2013:

http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/ (https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf[url=http://Tables beginning at page 23 of the report show direct and indirect deaths by year from football since 1966.  Twenty-six deaths were directly related to football in 1968, the most since 1931.

For me, the most sobering statistic is that almost ALL of the deaths directly and indirectly related to football occur at the high school level.  It is sobering personally because my son will be a senior.  To make matters worse, he just got moved to strong safety after playing CB for ten years.  I won't discourage him from playing for the reasons I've already stated, but I will be that much more worried during games.

With numbers for football deaths at historic lows, why do football-related injuries and deaths suddenly feel like an epidemic?  Carly Day, a sports medicine physician at the Cleveland Clinic and Chairwoman of the public relations subcommittee for the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine gives her opinion in an article available at this link:

[url=http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/)

"I think cases are getting more national attention than they used to by conventional news outlets and there is also more grassroots exposure on social media to the emotional aspects of these cases ... parents posting on Facebook from the hospital, etc."

In summary, the debate in this thread is healthy in my opinion, both for those who would allow their children to play football and for those who won't.  My testimony has been personal.  My experiences have been almost entirely positive.  I have seen football positively influence the lives of many men.  But that is not to detract from the dozen or more high school families devastated every year by the death of a player.  That is not a denial that football does, in some instances, cause long-term neurological damage. 

Sports are dangerous to some extent.  Statistics about other sports are posted in this thread.  Football, any way you want to view it, is the most dangerous of the popular school sports.  But it's a matter of degree.  How do you decide whether to let your 8-year-old play baseball, where more deaths occur at that age than football, or football?  Do you simply look at numbers and determine which sport your child should play based upon risk of injury?  What if your child is particularly well suited physically for one sport over the other?  What if they show promise in a more dangerous sport than they do in a less dangerous sport? What do THEY want to play?

At the end of the day, humans are risk takers.  We are competitive, and we are prone to violence.  Most sports have some element of those human characteristics.  If you're going to let your child play sports at all, it makes sense to me to let them play what they want to play at some point and then support them in their favorites with the best means available to the family.  Keep Advil and Ace bandages on hand and expect to visit the emergency room now and then.
 

Lol...yessir!

As I hold my 5 month old baby boy in my arms, one thing is sure: it's very easy for me to say, "He will never ______." Right now, he's wearing a doc-band to correct the shape of his skull. So, in all honesty, I'm extra sensitive to head related injury. The truth is, I don't know how I'll how feel about all of this in 15 years when he's looking me in the eyes and asking me to do something. When that time comes, I pray every day that I'm able to make wise and well-informed decisions.

It's interesting - I grew up in a very legalistic and religious culture. My parents wouldn't allow me to go to the movies, wear shorts, or go to sporting events much less participate. My parents told me I would "never play sports..." However, it turns out that, as I got older, it was more difficult for them to tell me NO. Eventually they let me play, so long as I didn't have to wear shorts! ;D Thank God they eventually caved on that one as well!

Obviously, child safety and legalistic Pentecostalism are two very different things..,but what's certain is that people change. In the immortal words of the great philosopher, Justin Bieber, one should never say never.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 10, 2017, 11:16:16 pm
All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man

Kid across the street from me died jumping a ramp on his bike when we were in 7th grade. Cracked his head and never woke up. He would have probably been better off had he been wearing a helmet.

I know you're not saying kids shouldn't wear helmets, but being nostalgic for our bygone times and looking at ourselves, we who managed to make it through the bike ramps of our childhood unscathed, as proof that we've become too guarded as a society isn't they way to go.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 10, 2017, 11:31:31 pm
Kid across the street from me died jumping a ramp on his bike when we were in 7th grade. Cracked his head and never woke up. He would have probably been better off had he been wearing a helmet.

I know you're not saying kids shouldn't wear helmets, but being nostalgic for our bygone times and looking at ourselves, we who managed to make it through the bike ramps of our childhood unscathed, as proof that we've become too guarded as a society isn't they way to go.

A year after high school graduation a guy who played on my baseball team bent over to tie his work boot and keeled over dead from an aneurysm.  I don't think that indicates or even suggests that avoiding work is the smart way to go.

Another high school classmate was murdered and decapitated by Henry Lee Lucas when he and his buddy offered her beer.  Apparently alcohol causes homicide.

Every one of us will fall victim to something eventually.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: sickboy on May 11, 2017, 12:36:28 am
A year after high school graduation a guy who played on my baseball team bent over to tie his work boot and keeled over dead from an aneurysm.  I don't think that indicates or even suggests that avoiding work is the smart way to go.

Another high school classmate was murdered and decapitated by Henry Lee Lucas when he and his buddy offered her beer.  Apparently alcohol causes homicide.

Every one of us will fall victim to something eventually.

Yikes. Now I'm googling Henry Lee Lucas.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 07:50:45 am
Yikes. Now I'm googling Henry Lee Lucas.

Transgender?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 11, 2017, 08:30:33 am
All the outlandish examples, people being killed by a serial killer, dying from an aneurysm, jumping a ramp on a bike wrecking and dying of a head injury still do not address the point that football results in more head trauma, and far more serious head injuries, than any other sport your child could participate in. This discussion is not about all the things that can happen in life, life ends for everyone at some point, some way. No one is saying if you play football you WILL get CTE, or WILL have concussions. The numbers do not lie though, you are much more likely to have head trauma playing football than any other sport. And thats what we are talking about, playing a sport. People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

No one is denying there is a certain amount of risk in everything, but some are denying the risk of neurological injury is higher in tackle football than other sports. Denying that in football would be like trying to deny their are more guys needing Tommy John surgery in baseball than any other sport, the numbers make that a indefensible position. However, if my kids blows out his elbow, it is not as debilitating as a severe head or neck injury, and that is the difference in what many are trying to use as comparisons. A knee or elbow injury is not the same as a head or neck injury.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 11, 2017, 09:10:51 am
All the outlandish examples, people being killed by a serial killer, dying from an aneurysm, jumping a ramp on a bike wrecking and dying of a head injury still do not address the point that football results in more head trauma, and far more serious head injuries, than any other sport your child could participate in. This discussion is not about all the things that can happen in life, life ends for everyone at some point, some way. No one is saying if you play football you WILL get CTE, or WILL have concussions. The numbers do not lie though, you are much more likely to have head trauma playing football than any other sport. And thats what we are talking about, playing a sport. People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

No one is denying there is a certain amount of risk in everything, but some are denying the risk of neurological injury is higher in tackle football than other sports. Denying that in football would be like trying to deny their are more guys needing Tommy John surgery in baseball than any other sport, the numbers make that a indefensible position. However, if my kids blows out his elbow, it is not as debilitating as a severe head or neck injury, and that is the difference in what many are trying to use as comparisons. A knee or elbow injury is not the same as a head or neck injury.

Of course there is risk involved, but isn't the question how much risk?  Probably only a few want to do something that is extremely high risk (jumping the fountain at Caesar's Palace on a motorcycle), but what if the risk is negligible, as it appears to be from football?

Statistics show us that traveling by plane is safer than driving a car, yet almost all of us drive every day.  Apparently that is a risk we are willing to take.  How many thousands of men have played SEC football?  And yet...most of us can only name one, Chucky Mullins of Ole Miss 26 years ago, who suffered a catastrophic injury on the football field.  How many people associated with current SEC schools can we name who were catastrophically injured or killed in car wrecks?  Bud Campbell, Paul Eells, Steve Little, and Brandon Burlworth just from Arkansas...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: DeltaBoy on May 11, 2017, 09:22:26 am
You are correct:

(http://infographicsmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Cheerleaders-Fly-High-And-So-Do-Their-Risks-Infographic-infographicsmania.jpg)

http://infographicsmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Cheerleaders-Fly-High-And-So-Do-Their-Risks-Infographic-infographicsmania.jpg

My Daughter got her Right ankle taped or wore a brace all 6 years she cheered. (7-12) grade.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 11, 2017, 09:34:18 am
Of course there is risk involved, but isn't the question how much risk?  Probably only a few want to do something that is extremely high risk (jumping the fountain at Caesar's Palace on a motorcycle), but what if the risk is negligible, as it appears to be from football?

Statistics show us that traveling by plane is safer than driving a car, yet almost all of us drive every day.  Apparently that is a risk we are willing to take.  How many thousands of men have played SEC football?  And yet...most of us can only name one, Chucky Mullins of Ole Miss 26 years ago, who suffered a catastrophic injury on the football field.  How many people associated with current SEC schools can we name who were catastrophically injured or killed in car wrecks?  Bud Campbell, Paul Eells, Steve Little, and Brandon Burlworth just from Arkansas...

You can deflect away from the issue, LONG TERM EFFECTS FROM REPEATED HEAD TRAUMA, as well as the risk of short term head trauma as well, but the fact remains the risk of head injury of some sort, either short term or long term, is much greater in those playing football than not. Then throw in the knee injuries, shoulders, etc, and the risk of injury overall is greater in tackle football than any other sport. I mean, it is a sport built on smashing into other humans. How many season ending injuries happen in football compared to basketball or baseball?  How many 20 yr old basketball or baseball players have to retire as Jr's to be because of recurring neck injuries or cumulative concussions?

And I am a guy who, after all that I said, did let my older son play, and would let my younger play if he really wanted. Not because I think it would make them a better person, or all the the other rah rah crap some have used to justify it, but because it is not a hill worht dying on for me to tell them no to that, when there are going to be bigger things I need to teach them to say no to, or I have to tell them no myself.

But, I respect any parent who, for the risks involved, do tell their kid he cant play football. I do not think it will make that kid less of a person, or physically and mentally weak. On the contrary, it teaches them you do not always get what you want. Coping with being told no is missing among todays kids.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: pigture perfect on May 11, 2017, 09:36:48 am
Football offers the unique opportunity for our youth to learn teamwork. Because of the number of people it takes to make the team and the need for and the ability of substitutions. It teaches toughness in physical adversity. It also teaches someone how to care care of their bodies, which would include knowing when to call it quits.

I say that even after being told as A 52 year old, that I'm going to need a shoulder replacement because of an injury sustained playing high school football. Yes, I let my son play football. I don't, and he didn't regret it.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 09:41:37 am
Head injuries in football are not freak accidents, they are not rare events and they shouldn't be treated as such.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 11, 2017, 09:47:56 am
Football offers the unique opportunity for our youth to learn teamwork. Because of the number of people it takes to make the team and the need for and the ability of substitutions. It teaches toughness in physical adversity. It also teaches someone how to care care of their bodies, which would include knowing when to call it quits.



Back to this argument again. Football is not the only way people can learn these things.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 11, 2017, 10:11:04 am
All of my friends and I played football for at least a few years if not all the way through high school.  One of my friends received a Presidential Scholarship...at the time the most prestigious available...to Texas A&M.  Another was valedictorian of his class at UT-Austin.  A third joined the Navy before quickly working his way into the NSA.

I made a perfect score in math on the ACT and turned down an appointment to West Point.  When I went back to school for a second degree at age 40 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa in Accounting and received the East Texas CPA association's outstanding student award.

The point is that almost everyone I grew up with played football.  We also played baseball, jumped ramps on bicycles... and, gasp, we didn't wear helmets... chopped down trees with axes to build two log cabins, and did all kinds of other "dangerous" things that boys do, or at least used to do.

None of us were or are brain damaged.

I thank God that my dad...who, by the way, was a boxer...didn't "shelter" me because he was afraid to let me be a boy and grow into a man

You are obviously very smart and a fellow accountant /hat tip I also intended  to go to West Point (dad was army recruiter for 20 years i passed the ASVAB when i was in 6th grade lol i use to take the test for fun it was my baby sitter, believe me dad didnt shelter me), do you really want to argue that football, CTE, Head trauma is not something to people should be very concerned about?

Believe me i did all manner of reckless stuff in my youth, and luckily i am sitting here to type about it, but as i watch my children grow up (age 18 to 3 months), i can't help but try and incorporate what i have learned over the years, and what HAS been learned by others.  When my first was born CTE didn't even exist, but i would bet money it was always there just no one wanted to know about it.

The human condition both simultaneously pushing for change, while pulling as hard or harder to keep old things intact despite evidence that change should be allowed to take place. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on May 11, 2017, 10:59:49 am
Back to this argument again. Football is not the only way people can learn these things.

Agreed, not the only way.  But I've been impressed how much better my son has latched onto teamwork via football than the other 3 sports he plays.  The other 3 require teamwork, no doubt, but something about football and the teamwork aspect has taken his view of working with & for the team to a new level.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 11, 2017, 11:23:42 am
Agreed, not the only way.  But I've been impressed how much better my son has latched onto teamwork via football than the other 3 sports he plays.  The other 3 require teamwork, no doubt, but something about football and the teamwork aspect has taken his view of working with & for the team to a new level.

Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 11, 2017, 11:31:42 am
Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.

aaaand the "safety'ing" up of Football is the direct reason why "kids today" are weaker than they were back in the day.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on May 11, 2017, 11:35:13 am
Great. I have no doubt it does foster team work. My issue, and it was predictable from the start based on prior threads on similar topics, is the attitude by some ( not you ) that football is the be all end all of making kids tough.

Understood.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: oldbear on May 11, 2017, 12:10:40 pm
My history is that I played football from 4th grade thru four years of college. I am now 52 and have no major physical issues as a result of football despite having been a four year Letterman in college, so I was on the field all four years. Really not even minor injuries that are football related. I have a bad back but that comes from a weight room mishap that good form would have avoided.

My son does play football and I volunteer with the local high school team and have for nearly 20 years. There is risk involved but I believe it is also very educational. My full time job gives me the opportunity to work with kids. Mostly those who are at great risk. I believe football is unique in what it teaches in that it is truly the only sport in which you can't be great by yourself. Michael Jordan would have been Michael Jordan without Scottie, and Babe Ruth could have hit a bazillion home runs without the Yankees. Emmitt Smith would have never gained a yard without linemen.

Football is special. It also allows a much larger number of people to be part of the team. My son will play as long as HE wants. I tell him all the time to play if he enjoys and don't if he doesn't. He knows you can get hurt because we talk about it. He is fully capable of making some decisions and needs to learn to make them. I don't plan on being around forever and he can decide to engage in legal and positive activities and I will support him and love him. If he quits I still will. If he gets hurt, I will still support him and love him. I hope he learns as much from the sport as I did and as much as my daughter learned from softball.

Today I supervise a fair number of people and I tell them all the time that my concepts of leadership and teamwork came from football. It is effective and, I believe, positively infectious. I love the sport and always will. I love that they try to make it safer, but recognize the risk. If you feel differently, that is fine. It doesn't make either of us better than the other.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: DeltaBoy on May 11, 2017, 01:01:14 pm
Head injuries in football are not freak accidents, they are not rare events and they shouldn't be treated as such.

With all the improvements in Helmets, I am puzzled why this seems to be a growing issue.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 11, 2017, 01:35:00 pm
With all the improvements in Helmets, I am puzzled why this seems to be a growing issue.

the head injuries are mainly from the brain slamming into the skull on jarring hits, and heads hitting the ground. The helmets are very good at protecting the face and the skull, but they do nothing to keep the brain from sloshing around inside the head.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 01:56:58 pm
the head injuries are mainly from the brain slamming into the skull on jarring hits, and heads hitting the ground. The helmets are very good at protecting the face and the skull, but they do nothing to keep the brain from sloshing around inside the head.

Very true...I had a doctor explain the inside of the forehead is rough and damages to the frontal lobe occur fairly easily when taking blows to the head ....football, soccer, boxing, car accidents etc....they all have risks involved but football is very repetitive in nature. A MLB may take 50-60 head blows per game.
 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on May 11, 2017, 02:11:30 pm
No.  The problem is I'm 55, played 10 years of football, and know many men my age and older who did the same and have no signs of CTE.  In fact, we've somehow managed to be very successful adults in spite of having played football. 

But of course, there's always someone smarter than we are.

Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 11, 2017, 02:14:43 pm
Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.

Lol, I'm a little older than Mr.Phillips and we didn't have anyone outside a monster man who weighed under 175lbs. Now, we probably had plenty of 5.5's....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 02:34:04 pm
People want to extrapolate not playing football with not playing sports at all because they like football, they played football, and admit it or not they use football as a measure of toughness.

You should speak for yourself.  I don't see anyone here claiming they want their boys to play football to toughen them up or to see how tough they are.  There are those who see benefits to be derived from the game based upon their own experience, and that is what I see from just about everyone in favor of allowing their sons to play football, if they choose to do so.

I don't see anyone claiming football is the only way to learn teamwork and discipline.  pigture perfect used the word "unique", not "only".  Football does offer unique opportunities.  On a spectrum, football is arguably the most team oriented major youth sport because of the nature of assignments on every play on both sides of the ball.  Baseball is probably the least.  Baseball is first a mano-a-mano battle between pitcher and hitter.  When a ball is put in play, it becomes largely an individual effort by a fielder before it may involve several players depending upon the situation.  And don't come back with every player has to know what to do on every pitch, who to back up, where to cut the ball off, when to cut it off, etc.  I played baseball as long as I played football.  I coached many teams before I had kids of my own. I love the game, but it doesn't require the teamwork football requires.  It does require teamwork.  It sometimes requires personal sacrifice for the good of the team.  Baseball teaches discipline and skills to deal with adversity, but you could give some credit to those of us who played football for many years and understand the bond developed between teammates.  As someone who played football, baseball and basketball for many years, in my opinion, there is no sport like football when it comes to teamwork and sacrifice. 

"Toughness" can be defined many ways.  Are we talking about physical or mental toughness?  As I said above, don't push your kid to play football because you think it will make him physically "tough".  Don't let him play if you think he doesn't already have a physically "tough" mindset.  He'll wind up being the bug rather than the windshield, which increases the chances for injury (you've been a ref; how many times have you seen a kid take a helmet to helmet hit when he ducked his head out of fear?;  how many times have you seen a kid hurt when he flinched before contact?  E=mc squared).  Most of all, if your kid is one who doesn't want to play because of the physical nature of the game, it will damage his confidence if you force him to play.  I saw this with one father I coached with.  He told me honestly that he wanted his son to play because he was timid.  His older son was a star on the high school team.  Guess what?  His son
stayed timid.  Fortunately, the dad accepted it, and that is the only year his younger son played.  I see the dad now and then, and his son is doing well and is a very good student. 

For mental "toughness", nothing beats golf, in my opinion.  Lee Trevino once said that standing over a million dollar putt in a professional event isn't pressure.  Standing over a $500 putt with $20 in your pocket is pressure.  Golf is a game where you have to forget the last shot or the last hole multiple times during every round.  It's a game that teaches you composure in the face of adversity.  You can tell a lot about people by the way they conduct themselves on the golf course.  My son started hitting balls with me at about 3.  He's never been in trouble for hitting a bad shot, but he knows he'll get a lecture if he wears his emotions on his shirt sleeve.  He has learned how to work his way around the course, when to play aggressively and when to hit a shot to the middle of the green, and when to take a bogie rather than try to pull off a miracle from a bad lie.  Those are lessons that transfer to real life.  Most of all, he knows how to be a good sport and a gentleman on the course, and that will serve him well when football and everything else is over. 

You sometimes seem to feel the need to take a swipe at those who disagree with you.  Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how you can be so cavalier about baseball.  How old were your boys when they started playing baseball?  These days, unless you're on the right travel team by 8 or so, it's pretty much over. You know this.  The only exceptions are boys who hit a growth spurt and find a team that needs a pitcher.

I mentioned this above, but here's a link to a study confirming that baseball is the leading cause of death among sports for kids 5-14:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/)

CTE is bad.  Death is irreversible.  You said yourself baseball is the leading cause of Tommy John surgery.  I pitched for 10 years and sometimes can't swing a golf club because my right elbow hurts so bad.  I caught for a few years.  No collision in football ever hurt worse than having a runner slam into me after coming full blast down the third baseline while I'm standing still.  A catcher is always the bug.  E=mc squared.  I still have scars on my hips from sliding on the hard surfaces of ball fields all over Arkansas.  I've run into fences and walls playing baseball and cut myself bad enough to need stitches and gotten up seeing stars.  I once hit a batter in the helmet and cracked it down the middle.  I broke more fingers and hands playing baseball than in any other sport.  Don't tell me baseball isn't without risks.  Is it as risky as football for long term brain injuries?  No.  Is it risky?  Yes.  It's just different risks that you choose to accept when you allow your sons to play baseball.  You think the rewards outweigh the risks.  You have a right to your opinion.  I share it where baseball and other team sports are concerned.  And that includes football.         

This thread has turned into primarily a discussion about head injuries.  Does football create the most risk of head injuries of any team sport?  The statistics seem to show it does.  Common sense would seem to indicate it does.  But that isn't new.  Awareness of the risk isn't new.  Is society full of adult men mentally disabled by football?  If so, I haven't seen it.  What I have seen are generations of men and boys shaped in part in positive ways by football.  Same with baseball, basketball, hockey, track, tennis, and golf. Concussions in football may not be freak accidents, but long-term adverse mental affects from football don't appear to be common, either. 

This thread, as much as any thing else, seems to me to be an indictment of football itself.  I wonder why some regular posters here who otherwise have always seemed to be fans of the Razorbacks football team bother to read and post on Hogville at all.     
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 03:13:24 pm
Sorry, but E=mc^2 is hilarious in that post.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Youngsta71701 on May 11, 2017, 03:13:55 pm
Flag until he's in the 7th grade then I'll let him play tackle football for the school. That might get rid of some of the wear and tear.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: jm on May 11, 2017, 03:16:01 pm
We raised 4 boys and absolutely let them play if it was their desire. We let them play football, basketball, soccer, track, golf, and any other sport thay wanted to try; fortunately none wanted to take up bull riding. As parents, we survived 2 tours of duty in Afghanistan and 2 tours in Iraq with the 82nd, a couple of trips to the county jail, several car wrecks, and I have no idea how many black eyes or busted lips.  Sure, football can be dangerous, but no more so than some of their other activities and you know where they are and what they are doing most of the time.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 03:18:15 pm
Y'all were 150 lbs and ran 5.5 40s. We are talking bigger, stronger, faster and the technology hasn't kept up. The collisions now are much more violent.

Lol.  See the stats I posted earlier in the report on football injuries from 1931-2013.  Annual football deaths were double and triple the number they are now until 1976, when leading with the head was outlawed.  Do you think concussions just became an issue?

Speaking for myself, I played on Hall's state championship team in 1978.  Gary Woods and George Hall weren't 150.  They both went to Arkansas, although I think Gary transferred to Tulsa.  He was the best running back in the state.  George was a nose guard.  All-SWC I think.  I was 6'3' and 190 and a half step slower than Gary.   

Players are bigger, stronger and faster now than ever, but helmets are much better than when I played.  No helmet is concussion proof, because as many have correctly pointed out, concussions occur when the brain collides with the inside of the skull.  It's like a car accident.  When a car doing 60 comes to an immediate stop, the passengers are still doing 60 until they are restrained or hit something. 

Since my son has been playing high school football, every player is tested, and a baseline is set.  Here's a link to how it works:

http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html (http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html)

Any time the team trainer even thinks a player may have a concussion, that player is finished for practice or the game until he is tested against his baseline test.  He is not eligible to play again until he has been through a very conservative protocol.  Records of every concussion are kept, of course.  Certain helmets now come equipped with monitors that indicate when a blow to the helmet is serious enough to cause a concussion.  I don't believe they are significantly more expensive than the standard top-of-the-line helmet.  I believe our head coach recently said they may be $200 more. 

In any event, the game and equipment are evolving to minimize to the extent possible changes in the size and speed of the athletes.  The numbers reflect that injuries in 2017 are not as severe as they were before 1976.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 03:38:15 pm
Sorry, but E=mc^2 is hilarious in that post.

Why are you sorry, because you think I misapplied Einstein's theory of relativity?  I suppose you'd like to explain it to me.

Here's the deal - we're not talking about the speed of light, but we are talking about mass times velocity.  I've used the theory of relativity many times to illustrate to players that mass times velocity equals energy.  It's the reason you want to be the train and not the car, the hammer and not the nail, the windshield and not the bug, the runner and not the catcher.  The best way to avoid an injury is to hit the opposing player harder than he hits you.  If you don't understand that, you've probably never played football. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 04:07:31 pm
Nm
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hoggish1 on May 11, 2017, 04:11:56 pm
Flag until he's in the 7th grade then I'll let him play tackle football for the school. That might get rid of some of the wear and tear.

Bingo.  but flag football till 10th grade would be the better scenario...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hawgfan4life on May 11, 2017, 04:21:33 pm
More teenagers are seriously injured in cars than in football by large proportions.  Should all children be kept out of cars?  Life is full of risks.  I would check to ensure proper tackling techniques are taught by coache and I would ensure that modern equipment is being used.  I would check to see what protocols the school has in place for possible head injuries.  Lastly, I would pray for God's hand of protection.  If all are in place, I would greatly prefer my son play football and gain the life lessons it provides over almost any other sport and what no classroom will offer.  I would rather have my son involved in an organized sport for that time rather than riding around in a vehicle with other teens.  Equipment and practice drills today make data from ten years ago irrelevant.  There is simply no comparison.  Risks still exist, but they exist in everything in life.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 11, 2017, 04:24:03 pm
yep God will stop your brain from banging into the inside of your skull (because nothing else will).  And if he doesn't well to bad so sad amirite
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Hogs-n-Roses on May 11, 2017, 04:34:19 pm
The number of football related sad stories pales in comparison to the damage done by meth,coke,marijuana,alcohol,heroin....DWI deaths are alarming among teens,as well as std's.Hope this isn't taken as a derail.unintended.I just happen to teach a drug/alcohol class for the sheriffs office and do research on these areas weekly.These areas of concern are alarming,not football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 05:52:19 pm
Illegal drugs arent going anywhere...here to stay, shouldnt still be alarming in any way....The War on Drugs is a complete failure-

Now back to head injuries and football...I still have hope that football can somehow become safer.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: redneckfriend on May 11, 2017, 06:23:57 pm
So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: ricepig on May 11, 2017, 06:50:30 pm
So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).

More than likely, their kids aren't interested in playing, so it's immaterial. I suspect they cheer for the rich white kids who play, too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: The Kig on May 11, 2017, 07:35:26 pm
Rugby- yes
Football- hell no


Played both, Rugby at a higher level than football.  Saw more blood, stitches, knees, shoulders in Rugby, but less concussions.  Maybe it's the pads in football that cause more head on collisions or maybe it's that Rugby is more fluid.  In football, both sides stop every few seconds, line up and when the ball is snapped charge into the opposing side. 

My daughter played competitive soccer (travel and HS) for years.  Data is coming out regarding concussions in soccer, no so much related to collisions (which do happen when two heads meet at the ball), but more around the constant impact of heading the ball.  Some states are considering requiring headgear for HS and below. 

Boxing/MMA, while fun to watch, should only be done by people who don't care or aren't smart enough to consider their future. 

I'm torn on football...probably wouldn't want a son to do it, but am a complete junkie for Hog football above any other spectator sport.  We are having this discussion on MMQB where most of us spend hours a week during football season debating our beloved team.  I would have jumped at the chance to play for the Hogs would had to be carted off the field unconscious before leaving willingly.   Even knowing the danger of todays football, I would play without a helmet if they let me on the field.  So if I had a son that was as passionate,  not sure how I would deny him.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: The Kig on May 11, 2017, 07:42:06 pm
So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).

I see Red/White (and sometimes anthracite)...

By the way, (based on grammar), what level of education does ending a sentence with a preposition lead you to suspect?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 08:03:45 pm
Lol.  See the stats I posted earlier in the report on football injuries from 1931-2013.  Annual football deaths were double and triple the number they are now until 1976, when leading with the head was outlawed.  Do you think concussions just became an issue?

Speaking for myself, I played on Hall's state championship team in 1978.  Gary Woods and George Hall weren't 150.  They both went to Arkansas, although I think Gary transferred to Tulsa.  He was the best running back in the state.  George was a nose guard.  All-SWC I think.  I was 6'3' and 190 and a half step slower than Gary.   

Players are bigger, stronger and faster now than ever, but helmets are much better than when I played.  No helmet is concussion proof, because as many have correctly pointed out, concussions occur when the brain collides with the inside of the skull.  It's like a car accident.  When a car doing 60 comes to an immediate stop, the passengers are still doing 60 until they are restrained or hit something. 

Since my son has been playing high school football, every player is tested, and a baseline is set.  Here's a link to how it works:

http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html (http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html)

Any time the team trainer even thinks a player may have a concussion, that player is finished for practice or the game until he is tested against his baseline test.  He is not eligible to play again until he has been through a very conservative protocol.  Records of every concussion are kept, of course.  Certain helmets now come equipped with monitors that indicate when a blow to the helmet is serious enough to cause a concussion.  I don't believe they are significantly more expensive than the standard top-of-the-line helmet.  I believe our head coach recently said they may be $200 more. 

In any event, the game and equipment are evolving to minimize to the extent possible changes in the size and speed of the athletes.  The numbers reflect that injuries in 2017 are not as severe as they were before 1976.

Death's have gone down dramatically but that's a different topic. Head injuries ≠ death.

Did concussions just become an issue? In all honesty, yes. Namely, 15 years ago, if the player wanted to keep playing, concussion be darned, they just had their bell rung, no concussion, keep playing. Much less the other research being done in the past decade or so. Further, to the players are bigger and stronger now than before (data suggests that players aren't much faster today by starters at least. Namely, yeah a 300lb player today is faster than a 300lb player of yesterday, but today's 300lb player is replacing the 280lb player and is about the same speed.) Anyways, look at concussion rates and knockouts by boxing. It increases as the weight class increases. I.e. despite the added muscle mass, the head becomes more vulnerable to force when more force is applied. Thus, based on the size of players today, I'd be surprised if concussions were not more prevalent today than in the past. However, I wouldn't use rates listed to quantify that as previously stated, concussions were much more likely to be ignored in the past than today and thus the difference would be a bit overstated.

However, a key issue with the whole argument is framing in terms of catastrophic incidents. Namely deaths and concussions. Refer back to my earlier link in this thread that did full scans of 24 HS student's brains before and after a football season while monitoring each and every hit they took. Not a single one of them had a concussion during the season (or died for that matter). However, every single one of them showed collision related physiological changes to their brain with the degree of change directly related to the cumulative impact and type of impact received to the head. Of course, whether or not they were able to heal from those changes over time hasn't been studied. Brain trauma research is still very much in it's infancy.

Further, there are different levels of CTE. It could be as little as a few more headaches and slight decision making changes. It doesn't have to be full on dementia/suicidal depression levels of damage. Which again speaks against this idea of big things. You don't have to become an idiot, or have some huge mental breakdown to have brain damage. You don't have to have a concussion to get brain damage.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 11, 2017, 08:10:34 pm
How many season ending injuries happen in football compared to basketball or baseball?  How many 20 yr old basketball or baseball players have to retire as Jr's to be because of recurring neck injuries or cumulative concussions?

I don't know, so why don't you provide an answer.  I have personally never known anyone who had to "retire" at a young age because of football related head trauma.  Have you?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 08:22:11 pm
Death's have gone down dramatically but that's a different topic. Head injuries ≠ death.

Did concussions just become an issue? In all honesty, yes. Namely, 15 years ago, if the player wanted to keep playing, concussion be darned, they just had their bell rung, no concussion, keep playing. Much less the other research being done in the past decade or so. Further, to the players are bigger and stronger now than before (data suggests that players aren't much faster today by starters at least. Namely, yeah a 300lb player today is faster than a 300lb player of yesterday, but today's 300lb player is replacing the 280lb player and is about the same speed.) Anyways, look at concussion rates and knockouts by boxing. It increases as the weight class increases. I.e. despite the added muscle mass, the head becomes more vulnerable to force when more force is applied. Thus, based on the size of players today, I'd be surprised if concussions were not more prevalent today than in the past. However, I wouldn't use rates listed to quantify that as previously stated, concussions were much more likely to be ignored in the past than today and thus the difference would be a bit overstated.

However, a key issue with the whole argument is framing in terms of catastrophic incidents. Namely deaths and concussions. Refer back to my earlier link in this thread that did full scans of 24 HS student's brains before and after a football season while monitoring each and every hit they took. Not a single one of them had a concussion during the season (or died for that matter). However, every single one of them showed collision related physiological changes to their brain with the degree of change directly related to the cumulative impact and type of impact received to the head. Of course, whether or not they were able to heal from those changes over time hasn't been studied. Brain trauma research is still very much in it's infancy.

Further, there are different levels of CTE. It could be as little as a few more headaches and slight decision making changes. It doesn't have to be full on dementia/suicidal depression levels of damage. Which again speaks against this idea of big things. You don't have to become an idiot, or have some huge mental breakdown to have brain damage. You don't have to have a concussion to get brain damage.

Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: southarkhog06 on May 11, 2017, 08:22:35 pm
considering I still deal with occasional migraines and insomnia, that may or may not be related to trying to play at a 5A school at 5'10" 150lbs. I will prolly only let my son play if he really, really wants too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: southarkhog06 on May 11, 2017, 08:27:39 pm
Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.
That "micro-crap" is not so easily dismissed if you are one of the former lineman whose brain literally has holes in it from repeatedly being smacked in the head by dudes that weigh 280+.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 08:52:12 pm
That "micro-crap" is not so easily dismissed if you are one of the former lineman whose brain literally has holes in it from repeatedly being smacked in the head by dudes that weigh 280+.

Okay. Who are they?  How long did they play?  Links?  Details?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 08:58:35 pm
Have you ever had a concussion?  I have and my son has. Mine was from basketball. His was from football. Both resulted from our heads hitting the ground. He was wearing a helmet. I was not. I threw up immediately and knew I was seriously injured. He didn't know where he was. Mine was in 1976. His was in 2011. Both were treated about the same way.

When you suffer a concussion, you know it. You guys can talk about micro-crap all day and so can others who'd like to see football go away. Show me the masses of walking dead who played football and I'll stop my son from playing tomorrow.

If becoming a walking dead is the only thing that'll change your mind, then there isn't anything to see. That's not what happens to most people with brain damage.

I don't want football to go away. I do want people to know the risks. If they accept those risks, that's what freedom is all about. Ignoring the "micro-crap" though is like ignoring the stream to only focus on landslides. Sure, the landslide is a big thing and you'll know it when it happens. However, that stream will move more rock and sediment than the landslides ever will.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 08:59:40 pm
Okay. Who are they?  How long did they play?  Links?  Details?

There's a ton of links in here. Just scroll up and start clicking on them. To quote David Byrne, say something once, why say it again?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: factchecker on May 11, 2017, 09:01:12 pm
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 09:21:04 pm
There's a ton of links in here. Just scroll up and start clicking on them. To quote David Byrne, say something once, why say it again?

I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 09:30:38 pm
I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?

If you are literally too lazy to scroll this thread for big red strings of letters and click on them, then why would I expect you to actually read the words in the links which will require even more effort on your part?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 09:32:01 pm
I've posted plenty. Point me to a link giving details about the many linemen with holes from football. Did you play yourself benny?  Or are you like Mel Kiper, who never played a game himself?

The damage starts in Pop Warner- I posted you a link a.few pages back
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 09:56:50 pm
The damage starts in Pop Warner- I posted you a link a.few pages back

That wasn't the question.  After presenting and cross-examining dozens of expert witnesses over twenty years, I know that any thesis can be supported by "facts". 

The question was posed to southarkhog06. Where are the names and details concerning the former linemen with holes in their brains? A link will do.   benny would argue that the sky isn't blue on a sunny day, but he can't answer a simple question - has he ever played a down of football?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 11, 2017, 10:11:14 pm
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028

Here's another example, one who died tragically at the age of 68.  Who will ever forget the many concussions she suffered while playing MLB for those great Steelers teams?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 10:27:20 pm
Here's another example, one who died tragically at the age of 68.  Who will ever forget the many concussions she suffered while playing MLB for those great Steelers teams?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth

She could have tackled me any day.

And we all know the Jerry Eckwood story.  It's really sad.  How much of his problems were due to concussions is open to question.

What about Tedi Bruschi? 

There are others.  But show us the flood of vegetables indisputably created by football-related head injuries. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 10:30:18 pm
https://offthemonstersports.com/2017/03/patriots-offensive-lineman-announces-retirement-at-the-age-of-26-with-twitter-post/
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 11, 2017, 10:32:01 pm
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html

http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

2 min google search...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 10:34:27 pm
https://offthemonstersports.com/2017/03/patriots-offensive-lineman-announces-retirement-at-the-age-of-26-with-twitter-post/

Okay.  Concussion Protocol 101.  Keep track of concussions.  Next?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 10:37:25 pm
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html

http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

2 min google search...

Same.  Let me repeat the question - where are the linemen with holes in their brains from football related micro-concussions? 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 10:38:35 pm
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941
http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-football-brain-changes-20161128-story.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/study-956-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players-tested-positive-for-cte/
http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/
https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf
http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html
http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

Here's a list of most of the links posted in this thread. Some posted by you, some by me, some by others. At least 3 of these links have the information you are requesting.

Also, yes, I have played football before, but didn't wear pads. Also, I played rugby for a bit.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 11, 2017, 10:46:28 pm
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/football-safe-kids-new-study-finds-brain-changes-n668941
http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/01/12/which-position-suffers-the-most-concussions/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-weve-learned-from-two-years-of-tracking-nfl-concussions/
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schooled_in_sports/2012/12/long-term_brain_damage_found_in_six_former_hs_football_players.html
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-football-brain-changes-20161128-story.html http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/study-956-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players-tested-positive-for-cte/
http://www.mtv.com/news/2371458/high-school-football-players-dying-safe-statistics/
https://nccsir.unc.edu/files/2013/10/Annual-Football-2014-Fatalities-Final.pdf
http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/353714-baseball-injuries-statistics-for-practice-and-games/
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/baseline-testing.html
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/jerry-eckwood-out-of-limelight-on-a-dark-road-45028
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article30376227.html
http://newsok.com/kansas-ol-shelley-smith-latest-to-retire-due-to-concussions/article/feed/1086826?articleBar=1

Here's a list of most of the links posted in this thread. Some posted by you, some by me, some by others. At least 3 of these links have the information you are requesting.

Also, yes, I have played football before, but didn't wear pads.

You mean the links about linemen retiring because of concussions?  That's not the question.  Where are the linemen with permanent, life-altering brain damage caused by micro-concussions? 

Listen - for whatever reason, you generally aspire to be Hogville's version of Mel Kiper, but now you seem to think football should go away. Do you just like arguing with me, or have you decided football is a brutish game with no social value? 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: EastexHawg on May 11, 2017, 10:48:50 pm
I've had several and only one happened on a football field.  The worst one was when a ramp I was jumping on a bicycle collapsed upon me hitting it going probably 30 mph.  I remember seeing the ground coming toward my face.  Apparently I was out a couple of minutes.  I woke up to one friend laughing and another saying, "Stop laughing, he may be dead."

Then there was the hood of the 1966 International Scout... with the top down...that broke loose from the bungee cords that were serving as a makeshift hood latch and hit me over the top of my head at about 60 mph.  Luckily for the guy sitting in the front seat beside me I was 6'5" to his 5'10" so I took one for the team.  If that vehicle is still on the road the imprint of my skull is still in it.

I also had a 300 pound buddy who said, "Bob Lilly on the pass rush" just as he blindsided me in his garage and knocked me through the air and forehead first into the corner of a storage closet door.  When I came to his little brother was crying, hovering over me and staring at the hen egg sized knot above my right eye...
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 11:09:37 pm
Why are you sorry, because you think I misapplied Einstein's theory of relativity?  I suppose you'd like to explain it to me.

Here's the deal - we're not talking about the speed of light, but we are talking about mass times velocity.  I've used the theory of relativity many times to illustrate to players that mass times velocity equals energy.  It's the reason you want to be the train and not the car, the hammer and not the nail, the windshield and not the bug, the runner and not the catcher.  The best way to avoid an injury is to hit the opposing player harder than he hits you.  If you don't understand that, you've probably never played football.

Missed your reply.

Oh man, you either did not take physics classes or did not do well in them. mass times velocity doesn't equal energy, it equals momentum. Kinetic energy often written as 1/2mv^2 which is a far cry from mv which is it's derivative. Further, none of that has to do with relativity at all. E=mc^2 relates the resting mass (because your mass changes depending on how fast you are moving) to the energy and vice versa. E=mc^2 is why neutron weighs less than a proton and an electron separately despite being created by those two particles merging. The mass that "disappears" is converted into binding energy to hold the two particles together into the single neutron.

You are referring to basic kinematics which was known hundreds of years before relativity came along.

Also, no, that is not the best way to avoid an injury. Best way to avoid an injury is to not get hit at all. As for the impact, it depends on how elastic the collision is or is not. For example, the momentum (which is what you are referring to with m*v) of a bullet is not terribly high. A man walking towards a bullet will have more momentum than the bullet flying towards the man. The damage and injury is caused by the shearing and pressure from such a small point of contact. If energy is what you want to talk about, a bullet has about 1kJ of energy. A 100kg man (~225 pounds) running at 9mph towards the bullet would then have more KE than the bullet as well.

Okay, sure that's bullets, but what about people? Let's assume (incorrectly) that the collision is elastic (think billiard balls). In that case, technically speaking injuries would be impossible. However, if you both weigh 100kg and you are going really fast say 20mph and the other player is going 10mph. Sure, you are imparting twice as much momentum into that other person, but you are still going to absorb the 440kgm/s of momentum from the other player. Just that they'll get 900kgm/s from you. Going faster won't prevent you from being injured in a collision, it'll just make sure the other person gets it worse.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 11, 2017, 11:15:19 pm
You mean the links about linemen retiring because of concussions?  That's not the question.  Where are the linemen with permanent, life-altering brain damage caused by micro-concussions? 

It's in the links above if you actually care. I've literally brought the water to you but I can't force you to drink it.

Quote
Listen - for whatever reason, you generally aspire to be Hogville's version of Mel Kiper, but now you seem to think football should go away. Do you just like arguing with me, or have you decided football is a brutish game with no social value?

Show me one single post of mine where it could even be implied that I want football to go away.

If I post that loud music can damage your ears, does that mean I think rock and roll sucks and want to ban live concerts?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 12, 2017, 04:29:05 am
I see Red/White (and sometimes anthracite)...

By the way, (based on grammar), what level of education does ending a sentence with a preposition lead you to suspect?

Snap.....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 12, 2017, 06:01:27 am
Same.  Let me repeat the question - where are the linemen with holes in their brains from football related micro-concussions?

Do research on the brain, the skull, and head trauma....inside of skull (forehead) is rough and it punctures the frontal lobe
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 12, 2017, 06:04:24 am
This is not a thread wanting to get rid of football...simply discuss the dangers of it. I played, still love it - but suffer from it too.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on May 12, 2017, 06:09:20 am
This is not a thread wanting to get rid of football...simply discuss the dangers of it. I played, still love it - but suffer from it too.

I was forrced by doctors to quit playing but still wanted to. Football was like my drug- i knew it was rough on my body but I still loved it....couldnt get enough.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Pork Twain on May 12, 2017, 06:10:16 am
If they went back to fewer pads and less protective helmets, yes.  All of this padding makes them think they are invincible, but there is no padding for the inside of their head and as someone that has dealt with TBI, I can say with certainty, that has more long-term damage associated with it than any body part all that padding is designed to protect.  You get hit or hit hard enough and your brain is playing pinball with the inside of your skull.  Give them leather helmets and they will stop using their heads as battering rams.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 12, 2017, 08:24:45 am
Missed your reply.

Oh man, you either did not take physics classes or did not do well in them. mass times velocity doesn't equal energy, it equals momentum. Kinetic energy often written as 1/2mv^2 which is a far cry from mv which is it's derivative. Further, none of that has to do with relativity at all. E=mc^2 relates the resting mass (because your mass changes depending on how fast you are moving) to the energy and vice versa. E=mc^2 is why neutron weighs less than a proton and an electron separately despite being created by those two particles merging. The mass that "disappears" is converted into binding energy to hold the two particles together into the single neutron.

You are referring to basic kinematics which was known hundreds of years before relativity came along.

Also, no, that is not the best way to avoid an injury. Best way to avoid an injury is to not get hit at all. As for the impact, it depends on how elastic the collision is or is not. For example, the momentum (which is what you are referring to with m*v) of a bullet is not terribly high. A man walking towards a bullet will have more momentum than the bullet flying towards the man. The damage and injury is caused by the shearing and pressure from such a small point of contact. If energy is what you want to talk about, a bullet has about 1kJ of energy. A 100kg man (~225 pounds) running at 9mph towards the bullet would then have more KE than the bullet as well.

Okay, sure that's bullets, but what about people? Let's assume (incorrectly) that the collision is elastic (think billiard balls). In that case, technically speaking injuries would be impossible. However, if you both weigh 100kg and you are going really fast say 20mph and the other player is going 10mph. Sure, you are imparting twice as much momentum into that other person, but you are still going to absorb the 440kgm/s of momentum from the other player. Just that they'll get 900kgm/s from you. Going faster won't prevent you from being injured in a collision, it'll just make sure the other person gets it worse.

As I said above, I've used the theory of relativity as an analogy because most kids have heard of it and know it deals with mass and velocity.  They wouldn't have a clue if I tried to explain it to them.  They understand bugs and windshields. 

The point is this - if you are going to put on pads and play tackle football, you need to hit your opponent with as much force as you can muster from proper position.  That is not to prove you're tough or help your teammates.  That is to protect yourself.  There are exceptions, e.g., the sideline is an extra tackler.  There's no need to hit a player when you can push him out of bounds.

Football is played with the eyes and feet.  You can't play with your eyes unless your head is up.  Leading with your helmet has been illegal for 40 years.  This is basic football. Playing with proper positioning and understanding how and when to deliver a blow is one key to minimizing injuries. 

In your bullet example, how much force would the bullet have if its velocity was the same but it weighed 225 pounds?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 12, 2017, 08:24:52 am
I don't know, so why don't you provide an answer.  I have personally never known anyone who had to "retire" at a young age because of football related head trauma.  Have you?

Yes, actually I do know a 8th grader who had to quit football last year after his 3rd concussion in 18 months. He still has 3 days he can't remember, and missed 3 weeks of school after the last one.

So- a bunch of middle aged white guys wouldn't let their kids play football but cheer their a..es off when poor young black men take the field for the state school (which I suspect, based on grammar, most are not alumni of).


The question posed was would you let your child play football. That could be asked of anyone, regardless of socio-economic, ethnic, or any other factors. Once the decision to allow them to play is made, and they progress to be good enough to play in college, why shouldn't people cheer for them?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: southarkhog06 on May 12, 2017, 09:18:57 am
She could have tackled me any day.

And we all know the Jerry Eckwood story.  It's really sad.  How much of his problems were due to concussions is open to question.

What about Tedi Bruschi? 

There are others.  But show us the flood of vegetables indisputably created by football-related head injuries.
I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 12, 2017, 09:24:04 am
I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

I had severe headaches about 4 years ago caused by a nerve problem in my neck, if I had headaches like that chronically, I would have seriously considered ending it all, I can not imagine living with that pain continually. Thankfully mine was fixable. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 12, 2017, 09:25:48 am
I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

Of course not. Hell that sounds like my last relationship.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: southarkhog06 on May 12, 2017, 09:36:57 am
Of course not. Hell that sounds like my last relationship.
Well we live and learn. ;D
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 12, 2017, 09:40:08 am
Well we live and learn. ;D

Ha! Not too sure about that.....there's always another ex-Mrs. LZH around somewhere.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on May 12, 2017, 09:58:02 am
I think the thing to weigh is that knowing the risks, and learning more about the POSSIBLE long term effects of head injury ( either major concussions or "micro" concussions caused by repetitive brain sloshing ) coupled with the very small chance your child is ever going to use football to get into college or play at the professional level would you let your child play football when there are many other outlets for team/individual sports?

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on May 12, 2017, 10:01:18 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/02/03/sports/football/nfl-brain-disease-cte-concussions.html?_r=0

Here are a couple links for you Bphillips.  The second one has linemen on it clearly.  A lineman's brain was what started the research into CTE.  I am not sure if you have seen the COncussion movie with Will Smith but it is pretty stark.

2 things i am sure of.  1 CTE is real and scary, and 2 the NFL tried to cover it up for years.

Also no one is saying if you play football you will 100% get CTE, but even if 1 out of 100 do that is very real consequences that gives me pause.

Wild thing is even knowing this i am not sure i would do things differently for myself, but for my kids the choice becomes quiet a bit more complicated.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: southarkhog06 on May 12, 2017, 10:17:34 am
Ha! Not too sure about that.....there's always another ex-Mrs. LZH around somewhere.
Well we live and live... learning is overrated.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: LZH on May 12, 2017, 10:23:18 am
Well we live and live... learning is overrated.

Now that I can understand.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 12, 2017, 11:48:29 am
I cant post links at work.

Do you actually have to be a vegetable for your quality of life to be effected? How about chronic migraines, insomnia, crippling depression?

I believe the concussion I suffered playing basketball was the most likely source for a series of migraines I had starting at about the age of 15.  People use the term migraine pretty loosely to describe bad headaches.  Mine had all kinds of symptoms.  I knew one was coming when half of everything I looked at disappeared.  It was sort of like seeing spots.  Then I'd get numbness in my fingers and nausea.  I'd always throw up.  At it's worst the pain in my head was unbearable, and I'd lose the ability to speak.  My mother was terrified, of course, the first time this happened.  She took me to the emergency room where I was given a shot of Demerol, and I was okay when I woke up.  I went to a neurosurgeon and got a CAT scan.  The neurosurgeon sent me to an eye doctor, who diagnosed an enlarged blind spot.  Didn't make a lot of sense to me.  For a few years I had one or two episodes a year, and then sporadically for another ten.  The last full blown one I had was at about the age of 28, and I've had a few since that had some of the symptoms.  Haven't had one at all in about 10 years.

The first time I thought my migraines might be linked to the concussion was when I saw a segment about Tedi Bruschi on 60 Minutes.  His migraines, as I recall, were attributed to the many concussions he suffered as an NFL linebacker.  The thing that stuck in my mind was that true migraines are like mini-strokes that, over time, can cause damage to the brain.  Until then I had accepted the "enlarged blind spot" theory, although I'd also learned, based upon my own research, that there is a theory that migraines are a form of epilepsy.  Epileptic seizures occur because of a sudden surge of electrical activity in the brain.  The exact cause of migraine headaches is unknown, but it is thought to be due to abnormal brain activity causing a temporary alteration in the nerve signals, chemicals and blood flow in the brain.  So - based upon what I learned over time and independent research, I concluded that my migraines resulted from epileptic-like abnormal brain activity that was either hereditary and latent at the time I suffered a severe concussion or was induced by that concussion.  I don't know and don't believe doctors know, either.  But for purposes of this discussion, I have assumed the concussion could have been the cause.

About 12% of Americans suffer from migraines.  Seventy-five percent of those suffering from migraines are women.  Although the cause of migraines is not clearly understood, it makes intuitive sense that some migraines may be the result of concussions or repeated head trauma.  Here's a link with a lot of well organized, simple information about migraines:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148373.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148373.php)

At the end of the day, neither my experience with a concussion and subsequent migraines nor my research is enough to cause me to prohibit my son from playing football or my daughter from cheering, another sport where concussions are common.  I spoke last night with my wife about this thread, and to put it mildly, she has stronger feelings about this than I do.  She asked if I told everyone that football has been all our son has wanted to do since he was a toddler.  She reminded me that, when he was asked in kindergarten (on a video taped for "graduation") what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said "NFL football player".  Lot's of kids say that at that age.  He has lived it so far.  Will he make it?  The odds aren't good, but who am I to interrupt his dream? Like J.J. Watt says - "Dream big.  Work hard."  Every great accomplishment starts with those two elements. 

P.S. - where my son is concerned, I have been influenced by this discussion as to what position I hope he plays in college.  He is being recruited as a player by some very prestigious FCS schools.  He is being recruited as a placekicker/punter by several P5 schools.  Kicking has been his focus until recently when he began getting serious attention from the FCS schools.  But he wants to play in front of P5 size crowds.  Who doesn't?  The problem is that kickers at that level have become largely preferred walk-ons at best, while full scholarships or substantial financial aid is provided to players.  We'll find a way to make whatever he wants to do happen, but the risk of injury, especially head injury, is a serious factor to consider, and this thread has helped me frame it.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 12, 2017, 02:55:19 pm
As I said above, I've used the theory of relativity as an analogy because most kids have heard of it and know it deals with mass and velocity.  They wouldn't have a clue if I tried to explain it to them.  They understand bugs and windshields. 

Bugs windshields have nothing to do with relativity though. You could just as easily replace relativity with pokemon, the Kardashians, or whiskey and it would be just as relevant.

It might make you sound smarter to the kids so that they listen to what you have to say, but name dropping relativity under such a thing is basically lying to them.

Replace a but with a rock and now the windshield is the one that is broken and the rock stays intact. The force is the same on the windshield as it is the buck. That's Newton's first law. The difference is that the material properties of the bug are weaker than the glass so the force squishes the bug. A rock is stronger than a bug and stronger than the glass. So, the glass will crack and break before the rock.

Quote
The point is this - if you are going to put on pads and play tackle football, you need to hit your opponent with as much force as you can muster from proper position.  That is not to prove you're tough or help your teammates.  That is to protect yourself.  There are exceptions, e.g., the sideline is an extra tackler.  There's no need to hit a player when you can push him out of bounds.

You hitting the opposing player with more force, energy, momentum, etc... won't protect you more though. That is false information. I mean, have you ever played bloody knuckles? You punching the other person's knuckles harder than they punch you doesn't protect your hand at all other than getting them to succumb to the pain first and shortening the game.

If you want to bring relativity into this, special and general relativity aren't applicable but your run of the mill lesson on reference frames absolutely is. The beautiful thing with physics is that it works the same regardless of reference frame (so long as we are in a non-inertial frame that is). For example, driving home, from the reference frame of the car, the house is moving towards you and you are stationary. From the reference frame of the yard, the house is stationary and the car moves towards it. However, the physics is the same. Same thing is always true. Bloody knuckles? You get the same result with one person punching a stationary fist as you do both fists punching each other. Let's say both are punching at 10mph. The collision is an inelastic one so the same thing happens when one fist going 20mph punches a stationary fist, same as one going 15 and the other going 5, same thing as both equally going 10 mph. Football collisions are typically inelastic collisions as well if you wrap up. If you alligator tackle like the seahawks do, a lot of that energy is converted into rotational, but the rest gets absorbed into the players.

Quote
Football is played with the eyes and feet.  You can't play with your eyes unless your head is up.  Leading with your helmet has been illegal for 40 years.  This is basic football. Playing with proper positioning and understanding how and when to deliver a blow is one key to minimizing injuries. 

In your bullet example, how much force would the bullet have if its velocity was the same but it weighed 225 pounds?

Agree with the above paragraph. Much of the positioning goes back to the bug vs the rock hitting the windshield. Proper positioning is basically making sure the contact happens with parts of your body that are like the rock and not the bug.

Force is the time derivative of momentum. So, unless the bullet is accelerating or changing it's mass, there won't be any force and we typically treat projectile motion as having a constant velocity. So, the force on the bullet would just be gravity which is kind of boring. When the bullet collides with something, it will be providing a force to that object. How much though depends a bit on the object itself and that gets complicated. The energy it would have would be about 6.5 megajoules which is pretty exciting. Of course, if this were still fired by a hand held gun somehow, the person shooting the gun would be thrown backwards by the same amount of energy. Assuming the weight of the gun isn't a whole lot compared to the person shooting it who also weight that much, the person would be thrown backwards with the same speed that the bullet is. Which is why really big guns usually have to be mounted onto something. A 350g bullet with 1200m/s (4,000 ft/s) muzzle velocity would launch a 210 pound man (assuming the gun weighs about 15 pounds) backwards at nearly 10mph.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 12, 2017, 03:08:35 pm
Bugs windshields have nothing to do with relativity though. You could just as easily replace relativity with pokemon, the Kardashians, or whiskey and it would be just as relevant.

It might make you sound smarter to the kids so that they listen to what you have to say, but name dropping relativity under such a thing is basically lying to them.

Replace a but with a rock and now the windshield is the one that is broken and the rock stays intact. The force is the same on the windshield as it is the buck. That's Newton's first law. The difference is that the material properties of the bug are weaker than the glass so the force squishes the bug. A rock is stronger than a bug and stronger than the glass. So, the glass will crack and break before the rock.

You hitting the opposing player with more force, energy, momentum, etc... won't protect you more though. That is false information. I mean, have you ever played bloody knuckles? You punching the other person's knuckles harder than they punch you doesn't protect your hand at all other than getting them to succumb to the pain first and shortening the game.

If you want to bring relativity into this, special and general relativity aren't applicable but your run of the mill lesson on reference frames absolutely is. The beautiful thing with physics is that it works the same regardless of reference frame (so long as we are in a non-inertial frame that is). For example, driving home, from the reference frame of the car, the house is moving towards you and you are stationary. From the reference frame of the yard, the house is stationary and the car moves towards it. However, the physics is the same. Same thing is always true. Bloody knuckles? You get the same result with one person punching a stationary fist as you do both fists punching each other. Let's say both are punching at 10mph. The collision is an inelastic one so the same thing happens when one fist going 20mph punches a stationary fist, same as one going 15 and the other going 5, same thing as both equally going 10 mph. Football collisions are typically inelastic collisions as well if you wrap up. If you alligator tackle like the seahawks do, a lot of that energy is converted into rotational, but the rest gets absorbed into the players.

Agree with the above paragraph. Much of the positioning goes back to the bug vs the rock hitting the windshield. Proper positioning is basically making sure the contact happens with parts of your body that are like the rock and not the bug.

Force is the time derivative of momentum. So, unless the bullet is accelerating or changing it's mass, there won't be any force and we typically treat projectile motion as having a constant velocity. So, the force on the bullet would just be gravity which is kind of boring. When the bullet collides with something, it will be providing a force to that object. How much though depends a bit on the object itself and that gets complicated. The energy it would have would be about 6.5 megajoules which is pretty exciting. Of course, if this were still fired by a hand held gun somehow, the person shooting the gun would be thrown backwards by the same amount of energy. Assuming the weight of the gun isn't a whole lot compared to the person shooting it who also weight that much, the person would be thrown backwards with the same speed that the bullet is. Which is why really big guns usually have to be mounted onto something. A 350g bullet with 1200m/s (4,000 ft/s) muzzle velocity would launch a 210 pound man (assuming the gun weighs about 15 pounds) backwards at nearly 10mph.

I am in awe of your superior intelligence, young man, but you don't know jack about playing football. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 12, 2017, 03:27:08 pm
I am in awe of your superior intelligence, young man, but you don't know jack about playing football.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

There's a reason why hard hitting players are more likely to be injured in the NFL.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 12, 2017, 04:20:29 pm
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

There's a reason why hard hitting players are more likely to be injured in the NFL.

Lol.  Are they?

Well there you have it.  For those of you reckless and foolish enough to allow your sons to play football, just tell them to try and hit softer than the other players.

While you're at it, tell them to keep their head up.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on May 12, 2017, 04:55:20 pm
Lol.  Are they?

Well there you have it.  For those of you reckless and foolish enough to allow your sons to play football, just tell them to try and hit softer than the other players.

While you're at it, tell them to keep their head up.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs03/columns/story?columnist=garber_greg&id=1722403

Nobody was less of a bug on a windshield than Cambell. How'd that work out for him? Compare him to Marshall Faulk who was much more finesse and whose body took much less punishment.

Campbell was going to hit you harder than you hit him, but his career was relatively short. Compare that to somebody like LeSean McCoy or LeVeon Bell. Physical runners, but you can never get a clean shot at them. Look at Alex Collins or Dennis Johnson. Rarely ever took a direct hit. Now, look at Dmac, he wanted to be the Hammer not the Nail. Injured his ribs playing here and we all know his injury statuses in the NFL.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 12, 2017, 05:47:46 pm
http://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs03/columns/story?columnist=garber_greg&id=1722403

Nobody was less of a bug on a windshield than Cambell. How'd that work out for him? Compare him to Marshall Faulk who was much more finesse and whose body took much less punishment.

Campbell was going to hit you harder than you hit him, but his career was relatively short. Compare that to somebody like LeSean McCoy or LeVeon Bell. Physical runners, but you can never get a clean shot at them. Look at Alex Collins or Dennis Johnson. Rarely ever took a direct hit. Now, look at Dmac, he wanted to be the Hammer not the Nail. Injured his ribs playing here and we all know his injury statuses in the NFL.

Are you kidding me?  You do know Earl Campbell played eight years, right?

"Knowing what he knows now, would he have done things differently?

'Wish I had run out of bounds more, something like that?" he asks, gazing directly at his questioner. "No. Because then you wouldn't have Earl sitting here. You would have had somebody else.'"


Here's what Earl really thinks:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/super/2017/01/31/earl-campbell-super-bowl-li-51-houston-oilers-texas-running-back-pain-gain-pro-football-hall-of-fame/97258738/

As a side note, here are Earl's stats from Arkansas's only loss in 1977, a 13-9 loss to Texas in Fayetteville.  I was there, and but for EC Arkansas would have won the NC:

Campbell, Earl       34 carries 188 yards  5.5 ypc

Running backs have the shortest shelf life of any NFL player at 2.57 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league/)

Running backs lead the NFL in injuries by far as a position group:

http://www.thefalcoholic.com/2010/7/7/1467728/which-nfl-position-groups-suffer (http://www.thefalcoholic.com/2010/7/7/1467728/which-nfl-position-groups-suffer)

It's interesting that of all of the running backs you mentioned other than Marshall Faulk, only LeSean McCoy has played eight years, and he declared for the draft after his sophomore year at Pittsburgh.  Ay yi yi!!!  If EC could have done that in 1976, Arkansas would have won the NC in 1977!!! 

I'll give you credit for being hardheaded, but you're being obtuse.  if you think avoiding contact is the best way for kids to stay injury free in football, you're whistling Dixie. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: The Kig on May 12, 2017, 09:23:37 pm
Do we need to separate you two girls?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: SooiecidetillNuttgone on May 13, 2017, 02:17:34 am
You don't play football to get to work every morning on time. A car is a need.

I'm actually glad you missed my real point.

According to a recent study published by Stanford Student Health, baseball has the highest fatality rate for children aged 5-14, with 3-4 deaths occurring annually.  I've known three high school baseball players the last two years who had Tommy John surgery.  The only concussion I ever suffered was a serious concussion playing basketball.  I have painful arthtritus in my right elbow from pitching and had a laminectomy at 43 to repair a disk that ruptured after years of hitting thousands of golf balls.

This is not an indictment of other sports or sports in general.  Most team sports have some element of risk.  They also produce benefits.  Football is the funnest game I ever played, and nothing else was close.  Why deprive a kid who wants to play and loves the game of that experience? 

Thanks for saving me time.
Also, the kind of damage the OP is afraid of seems basically nonexistent until college, and even then extremely rare.  It appears that it doesn't begin to become a real risk until years of large men slamming together enters the equation from the things of read or seen.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: SooiecidetillNuttgone on May 13, 2017, 02:48:29 am
Bp, please read


http://sportsnaut.com/2017/04/concussion-expert-youth-football-study-extent-child-brain-injuries-took-breath-away/

Just came out....

No statistics whatsoever.
A quote that sounds bad with no real context though.
A statement about 87 of 91 deceased NFL players had signs of the disease without mentioning that this wasn't a truly random sample but was instead a group composed of players who were erratic or suffering from the CTE symptoms before death thus stacking the deck.

I get your concerns.
You're the father, and only YOU will have to live with the consequences of deciding to let him play or not (your son will have to live with the consequences of getting to play or not).   In this sense, do what you think is best.

I don't however see the reasons for, as Phillips puts it, alarmist reactions to playing through high school.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 13, 2017, 11:14:52 am
Do we need to separate you two girls?

No.  I am truly indebted to benny for the physics lesson.  In order to avoid a disservice to young players in the future, I'll ditch the theory of relativity analogy and show them these videos:


Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: The Kig on May 13, 2017, 12:45:12 pm
For all the arguments, very valid data supporting long term concussion injuries, hits like the Atwater video still represent why football remains my favorite sport.  Literally a thing of beauty that excite everyone not on the receiving end. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 13, 2017, 01:36:40 pm
For all the arguments, very valid data supporting long term concussion injuries, hits like the Atwater video still represent why football remains my favorite sport.  Literally a thing of beauty that excite everyone not on the receiving end. 

Did you notice his head was up and his eyes were forward?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: The Kig on May 13, 2017, 04:17:14 pm
Did you notice his head was up and his eyes were forward?

Yep, solid hits aren't generally where concussions occur.  It's a helmet to the turf, against a knee, another helmet ...etc. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bphi11ips on May 13, 2017, 05:15:33 pm
Yep, solid hits aren't generally where concussions occur.  It's a helmet to the turf, against a knee, another helmet ...etc. 

Yep.  Same with other sports, I think.  Mine was the result of the back of my head hitting the basketball court.  My son's was the result of the back of his head hitting the turf. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: WorfHog on May 13, 2017, 05:24:24 pm
I would, but I'd be really clear and honest about the potential risks. I think, from my experience at least, the good can outweigh the bad. I know I had at least one concussion over the course of my short career. Back then the coaches just told me to walk it off haha.

The NFL and college football need to be extremely proactive about this issue. We need to make the game as safe as possible. Rule changes and better equipment could go a long way to making parents feel better about their kids playing. If nothing is done the talent pool will simply become so limited that it won't be much fun to watch anymore.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Coondog Hog on May 15, 2017, 11:31:30 pm
My son is going to be 13 and weighs 85 lbs when he starts 7th grade. Football camp and August can't get here fast enough.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on July 16, 2017, 07:48:20 am
I would argue a lot of the equipment designed with honest intent to make the sport safer has had the opposite effect. It makes them too fearless, particularly the head and shoulder gear. Go back to padded leather on the head and shoulders and take off the face masks and see how many players continue to dive in full speed head and shoulders first.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HiggiePiggy on July 16, 2017, 08:48:08 am
I would argue a lot of the equipment designed with honest intent to make the sport safer has had the opposite effect. It makes them too fearless, particularly the head and shoulder gear. Go back to padded leather on the head and shoulders and take off the face masks and see how many players continue to dive in full speed head and shoulders first.

Should we make them slower and 100 lbs lighter?  Because that is the huge difference in eras. We have high school kids coming out that are bigger and faster than the days they were wearing leather.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-player-size-over-time-2014-7
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HiggiePiggy on July 16, 2017, 08:57:05 am
so what will we do to prevent all the other type of injuries that happen in football besides concussions? 

https://www.google.com/amp/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/08/27/5-most-common-injuries-suffered-in-the-nfl/amp/


http://www.stopsportsinjuries.org/STOP/Prevent_Injuries/Football_Skating_Injury_Prevention.aspx
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: nwahogfan1 on July 16, 2017, 09:00:32 am
I would let them play, but I would not push them to play.

Exactly.  That is the way it should work for all sports.  Let them decide.  All things we do have some risks.   Boys need an out let so guide them.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on July 16, 2017, 10:44:28 am
Should we make them slower and 100 lbs lighter?  Because that is the huge difference in eras. We have high school kids coming out that are bigger and faster than the days they were wearing leather.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-player-size-over-time-2014-7

Definitely true of size, but I think this just exacerbates the fearlessness problem. To your point you can't really limit player size and speed. All you can do is try to limit the adverse effect it has on the number of injuries by modifying player behavior. Particularly with concussive brain injury the williningness of 300 pounders to crash into each other head first at high speed is probably the most pertinent factor, not the head gear.

An understanding of repetitive concussive injury, the biggest concern nowadays, is only just recently coming to light. There's very little you can place on your head to protect against this because it's caused by the brain crashing against the inside of the skull, not something external impacting the brain directly. It's the abrupt reversal of momentum that causes the damage not direct impact trauma. That said you could literally wear a tank on your head and still end up with a concussion, particularly if everyone else is wearing a tank.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on July 16, 2017, 10:48:00 am
so what will we do to prevent all the other type of injuries that happen in football besides concussions? 

https://www.google.com/amp/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/08/27/5-most-common-injuries-suffered-in-the-nfl/amp/


http://www.stopsportsinjuries.org/STOP/Prevent_Injuries/Football_Skating_Injury_Prevention.aspx

You won't prevent all injuries, but what concerns you more, your kid blowing out a knee or ending up with brain damage or a broken neck?
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HiggiePiggy on July 16, 2017, 10:54:22 am
You won't prevent all injuries, but what concerns you more, your kid blowing out a knee or ending up with brain damage or a broken neck?

I understand what you are saying, but there is a huge difference in players today and the ones that had leather on them.  A HUGE difference.  There needs to be something more other than going backwards.  Can't put these guys in gear that was used in the 60s and 70s. Plus who knows what kind of injuries were going on back then. We didn't really start looking at concussions until recent. Hits to the head were probably going on even back then.  It's part of a extremely violent contact game.  People can do everything right and all it takes is a slip and instead of hitting at the chest you are drilling them in the head. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: TNRazorbacker on July 16, 2017, 11:11:50 am
I understand what you are saying, but there is a huge difference in players today and the ones that had leather on them.  A HUGE difference.  There needs to be something more other than going backwards.  Can't put these guys in gear that was used in the 60s and 70s. Plus who knows what kind of injuries were going on back then. We didn't really start looking at concussions until recent. Hits to the head were probably going on even back then.  It's part of a extremely violent contact game.  People can do everything right and all it takes is a slip and instead of hitting at the chest you are drilling them in the head.

Yes, I'm not advocating going thoughtlessly retro where protective gear is concerned. I just think it's worth evaluating.

I actually originally heard this mentioned as a factor in an article where Joe Paterno was speaking to it, one of the rare coaches that had coached long enough to notice the behavior differences the gear itself provoked. Several other former players were also mentioned. I've linked it below, not sure this was the original article I read but speaks to the same Paterno comments.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/10/paterno_lose_the_facemasks_to.html
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: pignparadise on July 16, 2017, 11:30:47 am
I did and would again. My son played football and lacrosse in high school. He had college scholarships in both. He chose Lacrosse and became a college All American. Now a successful sales manager for a tech  company,  he said that he learned so much about life in football and uses it every day in the successful management of his team.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 17, 2017, 09:42:44 am
I understand what you are saying, but there is a huge difference in players today and the ones that had leather on them.  A HUGE difference.  There needs to be something more other than going backwards.  Can't put these guys in gear that was used in the 60s and 70s. Plus who knows what kind of injuries were going on back then. We didn't really start looking at concussions until recent. Hits to the head were probably going on even back then.  It's part of a extremely violent contact game.  People can do everything right and all it takes is a slip and instead of hitting at the chest you are drilling them in the head. 

Newer, better equipment is not going to stop the brain from sloshing around inside the skull, and that is what causes concussions. You can get a concussion on a textbook tackle if your head hits the ground hard. Many on field concussions involve no contact to the head by another player.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on July 17, 2017, 12:47:28 pm
I'm gonna start him on youth football. Already working with him on blocking at almost 4. He thinks it's a fun game to pommel his old man while I'm sitting Indian style.

Whether or not he wants to play in middle school, JV or later is up to him.

Unfortunately, not any teams use a fullback nowadays.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HF#1 on July 17, 2017, 01:10:04 pm
Nope. All it takes is someone not playing the right way or not using proper technique for them to be somewhat permanently damaged. I'll push my future son towards baseball or something.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 17, 2017, 01:10:17 pm
I'm gonna start him on youth football. Already working with him on blocking at almost 4. He thinks it's a fun game to pommel his old man while I'm sitting Indian style.

Whether or not he wants to play in middle school, JV or later is up to him.

Unfortunately, not any teams use a fullback nowadays.

Yea cause most of the worst coaching and bad habits start with rinky dink and peewee football. Those are the coaches that all think they are NFL level.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HF#1 on July 17, 2017, 01:12:08 pm
If you take the 31% that say no and apply it to a national scale, football will be dead in the not so distant future.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Großer Kriegschwein on July 17, 2017, 01:32:07 pm
Yea cause most of the worst coaching and bad habits start with rinky dink and peewee football. Those are the coaches that all think they are NFL level.

I retain right of refusal for crazy coaches.

Nope. All it takes is someone not playing the right way or not using proper technique for them to be somewhat permanently damaged. I'll push my future son towards baseball or something.

I will be the only one to coach my son if he plays baseball, especially if he's a catcher or pitcher.

I was the product of bad coaching. Did some damage to my shoulder from bad mechanics on the mound.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on July 17, 2017, 03:43:35 pm
I understand what you are saying, but there is a huge difference in players today and the ones that had leather on them.  A HUGE difference.  There needs to be something more other than going backwards.  Can't put these guys in gear that was used in the 60s and 70s. Plus who knows what kind of injuries were going on back then. We didn't really start looking at concussions until recent. Hits to the head were probably going on even back then.  It's part of a extremely violent contact game.  People can do everything right and all it takes is a slip and instead of hitting at the chest you are drilling them in the head.

I think the best way to compare the potential impact is to compare and contrast injuries in rugby to american football. Rugby players have also benefited from the increased knowledge of nutrition and working out and have grown bigger in recent decades. However, they don't wear any padding. As such, while there are still big hits, they aren't as often made at full speed.

However,

http://www.brain-injury-law-center.com/latest-news/head-injuries-rugby-vs-football/

Catastrophic injuries as defined in the article are nearly 4 times more common in rugby. I wasn't able to skim through and find a direct comparison to head injuries, but concussions are still an issue in rugby as well.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 18, 2017, 10:00:56 am
I think the best way to compare the potential impact is to compare and contrast injuries in rugby to american football. Rugby players have also benefited from the increased knowledge of nutrition and working out and have grown bigger in recent decades. However, they don't wear any padding. As such, while there are still big hits, they aren't as often made at full speed.

However,

http://www.brain-injury-law-center.com/latest-news/head-injuries-rugby-vs-football/

Catastrophic injuries as defined in the article are nearly 4 times more common in rugby. I wasn't able to skim through and find a direct comparison to head injuries, but concussions are still an issue in rugby as well.

Anytime you have humans running full speed and hitting each other there are going to be injuries to all parts of the body, including the head. The difference between rugby and Americna football is the repeated jarring of the brain. I can't find the report link but at a recent officials camp we had a section on head injuries. The 3 sports with the highest rates of concussions/head trauma/long term issues were American Football, Soccer, and boxing. The one thing all 3 had in common was repeated blows to the head and/or jarring of the head.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: McKdaddy on July 19, 2017, 12:47:53 pm
I loved the melting pot of siociety that can be a lockeroom. I realize other places can also fulfill this role, but this was an area where fb really resonated.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on July 21, 2017, 10:58:15 am
http://usa.rhinorugby.com/rhino-rugby-senior-tackle-ring

Huge with H.S. teams in Texas....I'm assuming they are being used nationwide. This is a way to eliminate too many head shots in practive, lessen chance of injury, teach tackling, etc...

Inventions like this might help improve the safety of football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 21, 2017, 11:00:37 am
http://usa.rhinorugby.com/rhino-rugby-senior-tackle-ring

Huge with H.S. teams in Texas....I'm assuming they are being used nationwide. This is a way to eliminate too many head shots in practive, lessen chance of injury, teach tackling, etc...

Inventions like this might help improve the safety of football.

There is no doubt ways to lessen the risk, especially from repeated actions. But they are never going to take the risk of head injury out of the game.

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Surfing8 on July 21, 2017, 11:08:53 am
Out here in CA soccer and baseball both dwarf football across the full youth age spectrum. 
Football still represents fairly well in the Inland Empire and Central Valley regions, where the general demographic is lower income. 

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: 311Hog on July 21, 2017, 11:13:03 am
Out here in CA soccer and baseball both dwarf football across the full youth age spectrum. 
Football still represents fairly well in the Inland Empire and Central Valley regions, where the general demographic is lower income. 



Sad also that a significant number of the public in the inland empire do not even believe Californians are humans, and are quiet content banging their heads against the wall with a smile on their faces....
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 21, 2017, 01:43:01 pm
Out here in CA soccer and baseball both dwarf football across the full youth age spectrum. 
Football still represents fairly well in the Inland Empire and Central Valley regions, where the general demographic is lower income. 



I help with a local fall baseball league and we have seen our numbers double this year in the age group where we used to lose kids to football.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BigoBoys on July 25, 2017, 02:38:02 pm
Here is a new study.  The results are pretty conclusive. 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/07/25/cte-found-in-brains-110-out-111-deceased-nflers.html
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: oldhawg on July 25, 2017, 02:58:55 pm
Sad also that a significant number of the public in the inland empire do not even believe Californians are humans, and are quiet content banging their heads against the wall with a smile on their faces....

Sad only if you are not a soccer and baseball fan.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Peter Porker on July 27, 2017, 06:47:24 am
Yea cause most of the worst coaching and bad habits start with rinky dink and peewee football. Those are the coaches that all think they are NFL level.

I saw a youth football coach coaching 11 year olds. He had about 15 kids on his team. 12 had never played before. The first practice he was already trying to run plays and was getting mad when the kids were messing up.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 27, 2017, 09:59:41 am
I saw a youth football coach coaching 11 year olds. He had about 15 kids on his team. 12 had never played before. The first practice he was already trying to run plays and was getting mad when the kids were messing up.

I won't even go call most youth league games because the "coaches" are morons. I have one youth league I will call for because the coaches are helped by the local jrhs and hs coaches volunteering their time. Of course they are doing so because they want to start developing players early, but the coaching is far above any other youth league I have been around.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: redneckfriend on July 27, 2017, 10:48:50 am
Sad also that a significant number of the public in the inland empire do not even believe Californians are humans, and are quiet content banging their heads against the wall with a smile on their faces....

The "inland empire" is in California. There are two (actually many more than two) Californias-the more wealthy and liberal costal areas and the more conservative, and less wealthy, areas removed from the coast, e.g. the inland empire, such as San Bernadino, east L.A. county, Riverside etc.(if you ever find yourself here- get out as fast as you can, in fact if you ever do I'm sure you'll figure that out for yourself pretty quickly- the place gives new meaning to the words "ugly" and "depressing"- with a few exceptions). You can add to this the "central valley" i.e. the San Joaquin valley with towns like Fresno, Bakersfield, Merced- agricultural and also more conservative.

As is generally the case, football tends to be more popular in the more politically conservative areas although there are plenty of great players coming out of the mostly African-American communities in the LA area. The more educated parents of the richer kids long the coast (where a "decent" home will cost over $1,000,000) have long since decided, for the most part, that the risk/benefit analysis of football is not in their kid's favor. A degree from Stanford or U.C. Berkley, without any head banging, is a better bet.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: longpig on July 27, 2017, 11:56:31 am
Out here in CA soccer and baseball both dwarf football across the full youth age spectrum. 
Football still represents fairly well in the Inland Empire and Central Valley regions, where the general demographic is lower income.

Basketball appears to be popular in CA too, judging by the number of courts in public parks and on public school grounds. 
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Possible Oatmeal on July 27, 2017, 12:04:03 pm
Not a chance.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: hogsanity on July 27, 2017, 12:24:25 pm
We told both of ours they could play when they go to 7th grade. One did, and one did not.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on July 27, 2017, 12:50:14 pm
Absolutely
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: elviscat on July 28, 2017, 05:23:24 pm
No way!!
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: bennyl08 on July 28, 2017, 06:36:34 pm
If my kid were to play football, not sure what position he'd play, but I do know the kid would grow up into the goat.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on July 29, 2017, 06:09:21 am
No way!!

Then don't let them get a drivers license and drive a car.................................
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on July 29, 2017, 06:30:20 am
Then don't let them get a drivers license and drive a car.................................
?

Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on July 29, 2017, 06:32:26 am
?



There are risks in everything in life. Especially driving. Some of the benefits of life lessons learned by some kids being on a team of any type is more valuable than the risks involved most of the time.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on July 29, 2017, 07:07:53 am
There are risks in everything in life. Especially driving. Some of the benefits of life lessons learned by some kids being on a team of any type is more valuable than the risks involved most of the time.

"A team of any type"

doesn't have to be football...if Elvis doesn't want his kid to play it's just fine, maybe he plays baseball, soccer, basketball, etc. There are other options for team sports...or maybe he wants to be a member of the band? Every parent should be able to look at the risks and make their own informed decision about football without ridicule from others - it's a personal decision.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: Inhogswetrust on July 29, 2017, 09:32:40 am
"A team of any type"

doesn't have to be football...if Elvis doesn't want his kid to play it's just fine, maybe he plays baseball, soccer, basketball, etc. There are other options for team sports...or maybe he wants to be a member of the band? Every parent should be able to look at the risks and make their own informed decision about football without ridicule from others - it's a personal decision.

Of course there are other options of team activities. But what if the kid doesn't WANT to do those others and only wants football. Why deprive a kid of something that will teach them some things if that's what they want to do. Would you not give your kid a skateboard if they wanted it? That can be risky as well. Individual sports or other activities can have injury risks. My brother in laws were not allowed to play football. When one of them have a boy he kind of wanted his kid to do what he couldn't do. He didn't push him that way but allowed him to play and he learned a lot by doing so. Heck the most severe he ever got hurt was snow skiing while in college. An individual recreational activity that happens to be considered a sport sometimes. My wife's niece played college soccer at Colorado. She had to give it up after her junior year due to all the injuries she had sustained. Telling a kid they can't do something that teaches life lessons and is legal and controlled to some degree is not good imho. I believe a parent should't go through life having their kid in a "bubble" the whole time they are growing up. It's a big world and it's important they learn how to live in it. Team activities help in that. I'm not ridiculing parents for only football. Some parents though don't let their kids play ANY sport or have any extracurricular team activities.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: HiggiePiggy on July 29, 2017, 10:29:02 am
Nt
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: twistitup on July 29, 2017, 11:20:16 am
Of course there are other options of team activities. But what if the kid doesn't WANT to do those others and only wants football. Why deprive a kid of something that will teach them some things if that's what they want to do. Would you not give your kid a skateboard if they wanted it? That can be risky as well. Individual sports or other activities can have injury risks. My brother in laws were not allowed to play football. When one of them have a boy he kind of wanted his kid to do what he couldn't do. He didn't push him that way but allowed him to play and he learned a lot by doing so. Heck the most severe he ever got hurt was snow skiing while in college. An individual recreational activity that happens to be considered a sport sometimes. My wife's niece played college soccer at Colorado. She had to give it up after her junior year due to all the injuries she had sustained. Telling a kid they can't do something that teaches life lessons and is legal and controlled to some degree is not good imho. I believe a parent should't go through life having their kid in a "bubble" the whole time they are growing up. It's a big world and it's important they learn how to live in it. Team activities help in that. I'm not ridiculing parents for only football. Some parents though don't let their kids play ANY sport or have any extracurricular team activities.

I think it is completely up to parents until a kid reaches an age to make his own decisions....I wouldn't let my kid ride bulls at a young age...just doesn't make sense to me. My parents wouldn't let me box (golden gloves), it didn't make sense to them.

Extracurricular is good, but parents can help guide children to sports they approve of. If the kid gets to to H.S. and is still begging - ok, maybe it's on him at that point.
Title: Re: Would you let your kid play football?
Post by: BirmingHam on July 29, 2017, 11:35:50 am
I played organized football from 3rd grade through high school.  Played OL and then moved up to TE/DE in later days.  My senior year I was the gunner on punt returns (ran back up the wall to block oncoming players).  I do not have any problems at age 60.  I do have bad knees, but I attribute that to basketball and all the jumping drills/rebound drills from 5th through high school.

I allowed all my sons to play if they wanted (2 did/ 2 did not).  Older son has no injuries, Offensive line.  Youngest had a concussion, but doesnt' have any lasting injuries - now 20. 

The older son does have back problems and has to go to doctor often.  But, that is due to being hit from behind at stoplight twice.  Both times he was at a dead stop waiting for light to change.  But, he still drives and stops at stop lights waiting for them to change to green.  Maybe I should talk to him and tell him that if he wants to have a fulfilling life past 25 (current age) that he should no longer commute in city traffic.  It's just not worth the risk.  This commuting has done more damage than 5 years of football.