Technical BBall Question

[hogfankb]

First of all let me start out by saying I am not a fan of the 2-3 zone but it is effectively used at a lot of schools. I personally didn't play much of it in my basketball days. We were a 1-3-1 matchup team.

With that said has anyone ever played in a zone where the rotation is like Arkansas's. By that I mean when one side is overloaded and the ball is passed from wing to corner our center of the 2-3 comes out to guard the ball. And our wing player thomas/townes or whoever drop back into the center position(we do have the size to do that thank goodness).

I personally hate this because our bigs have enough trouble guarding other post players off the dribble. Why make them guard wing players out on the floor while having to close out? Hill has picked up numerous fouls trying to do so.

Also, in the type of 2-3 we run with the guards starting out lined up in more of a 1-1-3 look. Isn't the first pass to the right or left of the first guard suppose to be handled by the second guard. We almost never make this rotation which means one of the baseline guys must guard the wing. Again leaving the corner open.

Is this the way anyone else learned to play 2-3? Is it the norm and I just can't remember that far back? Rotation is everything in a zone and I just thought our rotation was a odd. Just wondering because we run this defense out of almost every inbounds play under our basket. Thoughts?

[hogsanity]

I was taught, you play zone to keep your big guys near the goal, so why send him to the wing or corner.  It does not make sense to me, but I never played in a league with the kind of speed and athletes the SEC has. I played both 2-3 and 1-3-1 at guard.  We had some funky guard calls on the first pass or if we were gonna jump a trap on them or something, so i dont think the guard thing is any major technical flaw.   

[hogfan064]

I played in a 2-1-2 zone.  I was the center.  By having me in the paint it kept me from lurking to spots I wasn't supposed to be.  If anyone got past the 2 forwards and dipped into the paint I took over.  I thought the style my coach taught kept me out of foul trouble and got me lots of rebounds. 

I really miss playing basketball.

[hogfankb]

I thought the style my coach taught kept me out of foul trouble and got me lots of rebounds. 

I really miss playing basketball.

I agree. Everytime Hill/Townes has to go out to the corner it not only leaves the lane wide open if the wing doesn't get back quick enough. It also takes our biggest player out of rebounding position.

[hogfan064]

That's what killed us in the second half against UK.  They were firing away from outside and when they'd miss our big men were so far out of position UK was getting lots of second chances.  Of course we did have some serious foul trouble to worry about as well.  Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing Hill playing less minutes in the first half.  We play well enough the first 20 minutes and if we get behind we can throw him in.  We need to protect the man and keep him under 3 fouls in the final 10 minutes.  He can become more aggressive and be rested.  Noone can score on the man inside when he's rested and out of foul trouble.  Also it gives us an offensive weapon down low other than Townes

[hogfan33]

I played in a point zone in high school, which is very similar if not the same thing that arkansas is running now. The man nearest the ball goes out and guards it while the other 3 shift around the zone, The 5 man is stationary and always near the basket. It appears as a 2-3 zone at times while seeming to be a 1-3-1 at others.

[claycohog]

We played a 2-1-2.  IN FREAKIN PEE-WEE BALL!

[razorback3072]

I played in just about every type of zone defense in HS and Juco as a guard and forward.  Not once did we have any rotation where the big man left the paint.  He may go to the low block just outside the paint but I have never seen rotation like AR has.  When the ball is reversed quickly enough(something we don't do on offense), we are toast inside. 

[Michael11]

I tend to agree with the last post! I like to think i am pretty smart when it comes to defenses etc. but for the life of me i watched arkansas against ole miss and didn't know if we were in a 2-3 trap look, a 1-3-1 with the 1 not running the baseline, or if we wer in a 2-1-2 or maybe even a 3-2 with two of the three sunk back. Then before we went back to man it looked like a match up! I am not sure they know what they are running but that is the key when we get leads we quit running

[wishyjoshy]

I played for 15 years in AAU, High School, and a Small D2 school in college.  I have only seen a rotation like that once.  It wasn't effective for the team who was playing it and it isn't effective for the Hogs. 
As far as the guard rotation, it isn't a big deal.  Some coaches care about it and others don't. 
The zone defense we ran that was the most effective was really only half zone.  We would pick one side of the floor everytime on defense.  (It was a different side every trip down the court.)  If the ball went to that side we would run our 2-3, if it went to the other side, we ran a man or a trap.  It is absolutely amazing just how many offenses got freaked out because of it.

[Eric Sullivan]

First of all let me start out by saying I am not a fan of the 2-3 zone but it is effectively used at a lot of schools. I personally didn't play much of it in my basketball days. We were a 1-3-1 matchup team.

With that said has anyone ever played in a zone where the rotation is like Arkansas's. By that I mean when one side is overloaded and the ball is passed from wing to corner our center of the 2-3 comes out to guard the ball. And our wing player thomas/townes or whoever drop back into the center position(we do have the size to do that thank goodness).

I personally hate this because our bigs have enough trouble guarding other post players off the dribble. Why make them guard wing players out on the floor while having to close out? Hill has picked up numerous fouls trying to do so.

Also, in the type of 2-3 we run with the guards starting out lined up in more of a 1-1-3 look. Isn't the first pass to the right or left of the first guard suppose to be handled by the second guard. We almost never make this rotation which means one of the baseline guys must guard the wing. Again leaving the corner open.

Is this the way anyone else learned to play 2-3? Is it the norm and I just can't remember that far back? Rotation is everything in a zone and I just thought our rotation was a odd. Just wondering because we run this defense out of almost every inbounds play under our basket. Thoughts?

First of all Heath is a hardcore Man-to-Man coach.. But if you watch when ARK is in MAN.. we have guys lose site of their responsibilities.. Brewer is a perfect example.. He's a Helluva player don't get me wrong, but when you go for the steal everytime on D (like he gets caught up doing because he's only aggressive on the ball), you will get burned one way or another.. It takes 5 guys to play great TEAM DEFENSE !!!

Hogfankb brings up a great question on the HOGS ZONE Defense assignments.. You don't want Townes or espcially Hill out on the wing covering a Rajon Rondo type-it's trouble waiting to happen.. It looks like to me Heath plays a "Closest to the ball type zone" The reason, Brewer, Jefferson are long and can cover larger areas up top... There is NO matching up I SEE, it's like: "Hey closest man to the ball go get him and TALK"..

Now don't hate on me too bad here HOGVILLE.NET but I'm a HUGE DUKE and Coach K fan.. One of the main reasons is look at how they play Defense.. Coach K NEVER, I MEAN NEVER PLAYS ZONE.. It's get up in your man's face, and then deny your man the ball by getting WAY UP in the passing lanes.. They do that because of Sheldon Williams shot blocking ablility and intimidating pressence down low.. Now I KNOW SHELDON WILLIAMS is great, but I really think Steven Hill is just as soild as him when it comes to Blocking shots.. So in turn, I would love to see the HOGS just turn up the ball pressure on defense and if you get beat with dribble penetration or your man slips by you on a backdoor, hey it's ok.. STEVEN HILL will be there.. I know foul trouble becomes a MONSTER ISSUE for Hill, but hey I'd rather see Arkansas come out aggressive on defense and lose Hill at the end of the game than play half way man or zone D, which is what happens all the time to us..

ESully

[Biggus Piggus]

First of all Heath is a hardcore Man-to-Man coach.. But if you watch when ARK is in MAN.. we have guys lose site of their responsibilities.. Brewer is a perfect example.. He's a Helluva player don't get me wrong, but when you go for the steal everytime on D (like he gets caught up doing because he's only aggressive on the ball), you will get burned one way or another.. It takes 5 guys to play great TEAM DEFENSE !!!

Glad you pointed that out.  Brewer gets too much praise for his steals.  You hear it on TV all the time.  He often breaks down the team D with his resting and his freelancing.  Gets himself wrong-footed, off-balance and his man drives, or his man drifts back and catches the reversal for a wide-open shot.

It looks like to me Heath plays a "Closest to the ball type zone" The reason, Brewer, Jefferson are long and can cover larger areas up top... There is NO matching up I SEE, it's like: "Hey closest man to the ball go get him and TALK"..

Does not look to me like the Hogs' zone is taught right.  It doesn't do what it is supposed to do.  When the ball comes inside, the D doesn't get better, it gets worse.  As though they're focused on not getting burned on the PERIMETER when they're playing ZONE.  Weird freakin thing to watch.