New Army Standards

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

http://www.oafnation.com/the-book-of-eli/2014/4/5/regulations-winning-battles-since-1775

At the end of the day, the reasons for this phenomenon could be explored ad nauseam and would likely generate more theories than could possibly be vetted. But let's face it; the military is on the treasury dime.

When there's no fiscal consequence for giving the rank and responsibility of an E-9 to the guy who would otherwise be picking up my garbage every Tuesday, there's no physical consequence either. In the business world, where incompetence equals profit loss, these frauds would swiftly weed themselves out.

But unfortunately, under the federal umbrella, their ineptness is the cauldron from which a cornucopia of bogus, irrational, often detrimental standards is spawned.

I strongly disagree with a lot of the "new" standards found in AR 670-1.  Such as current enlistees who have legal, grandfathered "sleeve" tattoos or more than the new standard allows are precluded from accession into the warrant officer or commissioned officer positions.

Some of the "new" standards make sense.  But, the guy at Oaf Nation pretty much sums up the feelings of, what I'd opine as, 75+% of the guys' feelings that have been in the army the past 10-15 years.

 

[Hawgon]

Meh...it's always been that way.  The military has always been the last refuge of the lazy and incompetent.  My parents talked about a lazy cousin who wouldn't work 30 years ago by saying, "He stayed in the Army too long."

[cubsfan5150]

Meh...it's always been that way.  The military has always been the last refuge of the lazy and incompetent.  My parents talked about a lazy cousin who wouldn't work 30 years ago by saying, "He stayed in the Army too long."

Dude, you are such a negative, paranoid, darn talking bitch.

[Hawgon]

Dude, you are such a negative, paranoid, darn talking bitch.

Right, but always correct in every respect.

[cubsfan5150]

Hardly

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Right, but always correct in every respect.

Go climb the Hindu Kush mountains for a year at 6k feet altitude while getting shot at 3 times a day and only getting one hot chow a day. Lazy, I'll show you lazy.

[YankHog]

Meh...it's always been that way.  The military has always been the last refuge of the lazy and incompetent.  My parents talked about a lazy cousin who wouldn't work 30 years ago by saying, "He stayed in the Army too long."

spoken like someone who hasn't spent a single day in uniform defending his country.

[cubsfan5150]

spoken like someone who hasn't spent a single day in uniform defending his country.

Funny thing is, ole hawgon, claims to have served... an officer at that.

[Tejas_Pete]

Army always gets worse about trivial things after wars. Leaders aren't content to just keep the train rolling they feel like they have to change things and leave their mark so without real battles to fight they spend their efforts on crap like tattoos, getting rid of sports PT, mandatory training etc.

[AF74Razorback]

I believe the civilians in the DOD wish to push their agenda.   That is why there is all this talk of social engineering,  revamped standards and force modernization.   They are incrementally cutting back in the name of austerity.   Happened with President Carter too, so much he became reviled.

[Old Tusk]

The Harvard Business school killed the military. We moved from a war fighter mentality to a corporate mentality. Leaders were passed over in favor of managers. Commanders with out leadership skills became the norm and we have drifted into this pit of mediocrity and self interest.

[Tejas_Pete]

The Harvard Business school killed the military. We moved from a war fighter mentality to a corporate mentality. Leaders were passed over in favor of managers. Commanders with out leadership skills became the norm and we have drifted into this pit of mediocrity and self interest.

Agreed. That and the zero defect mentality had bred an entire generation of mid-level "leaders" who are afraid to make decisions.

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

The Harvard Business school killed the military. We moved from a war fighter mentality to a corporate mentality. Leaders were passed over in favor of managers. Commanders with out leadership skills became the norm and we have drifted into this pit of mediocrity and self interest.

Agreed. That and the zero defect mentality had bred an entire generation of mid-level "leaders" who are afraid to make decisions.

Succinctly put.  I can't tell you how many senior "leaders" I've had recently who couldn't lead the unit out of a wet paper bag, but could threaten us with punishment for failure and give us an impromptu, two-hour dissertation on "professionalism."

I've had company commanders smacked down by battalion commanders for innovative, forward-thinking decisions in combat and training because it wasn't the battalion commander's idea, therefore he couldn't get the credit.

And yet, the E-9 who has main concerns over side burn length, hands in pockets, boot laces, and grass growing in cracks in the road has more power than a Chief Warrant Officer to the point that he is allowed to disrespect a Chief Warrant Officer, but the minute a CWO tells him to pound sand and talk to someone he outranks, he goes crying to the LTC or COL and they take up for him.

It's a crazy Army, especially the last five years.

[cubsfan5150]

Succinctly put.  I can't tell you how many senior "leaders" I've had recently who couldn't lead the unit out of a wet paper bag, but could threaten us with punishment for failure and give us an impromptu, two-hour dissertation on "professionalism."

I've had company commanders smacked down by battalion commanders for innovative, forward-thinking decisions in combat and training because it wasn't the battalion commander's idea, therefore he couldn't get the credit.

And yet, the E-9 who has main concerns over side burn length, hands in pockets, boot laces, and grass growing in cracks in the road has more power than a Chief Warrant Officer to the point that he is allowed to disrespect a Chief Warrant Officer, but the minute a CWO tells him to pound sand and talk to someone he outranks, he goes crying to the LTC or COL and they take up for him.

It's a crazy Army, especially the last five years.

Depending on the grade of the CWO, I wouldn't take any lip from him either, and I'm only an E-7. 

Would you let a 2Lt tell you to go talk to someone you outrank?  I'd certainly hope not. 

If I was an E-9, I'd take no crap from a Major who wasn't a CC.  Same goes for CWO's.

[Sueie]

I do not know how it is now and GLAD that I don't.  But in 1983 at Fort Hood, Texas the Warrant officers did not take any crap from an E-9.  I had a CW4 tell a LTC that he was an ignorant SOB and to basically F' off. 
Of course LTC James S. Marshall was an ignorant SOB though.

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

Depending on the grade of the CWO, I wouldn't take any lip from him either, and I'm only an E-7. 

Would you let a 2Lt tell you to go talk to someone you outrank?  I'd certainly hope not. 

If I was an E-9, I'd take no crap from a Major who wasn't a CC.  Same goes for CWO's.

In my post you quoted, the sergeant major instigated the unprofessional encounter.

I never instigate unprofessional behavior.  The only time I don't address someone with respect, regardless of rank all the way down to private, is when I am spoken to like I'm nobody for no reason.

Sergeants Major tend to do this more than others, and I have no problem telling them to close their mouths. 

And, when telling a LT or CPT what's up, I use extreme tact to where they know what I'm doing, but they can't do anything about it.

The last time an E-7 tried to get stupid with me, I took him out from in front of the men he leads, and let him know in no uncertain terms that would be the LAST time that ever happened.  It was.

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

Let me make a clarifying post:

I have nothing but respect for NCO's.  Heck, I was one before becoming a warrant.  In no way am I trying to make myself seem more important or better than any other Soldier of any other rank.

....and, yes, that includes LT's.

[Old Tusk]

A common observation when I retired was we have a lot of E-9s but not many Chiefs.

[Old Tusk]

What you guys are describing is a huge brakedown in discipline.

[cubsfan5150]

What you guys are describing is a huge brakedown in discipline.

It depends... nobody should be disrespected, regardless who it is coming from, but there's no reason to be disrespectful back to someone by saying, "Go talk to someone you outrank."

[Pork Twain]

Respect must go both ways.  If not, it should be corrected on the spot.

[YankHog]

Respect must go both ways.  If not, it should be corrected on the spot.

This is spot on, it must go both ways, we all know it doesn't work out like that some time and some leaders just don't treat subordinates the way they should, we don't always have to respect the person, but you do have to respect the rank, let's face it, a 2LT outranks a SGM and WO5, we all know a 2LT would be stupid to disrespect either, however if either disrespects that 2LT for no reason it is an Article 89 offense and if that 2LT knows his regs(probably doesn't), he could hammer them, would not be wise for his careeer but  he could.   
Like Nate said, if somebody instigates with unprofessional behavior they have then lost any credibility (as a leader or subordinate)and could then, depending on how much you dislike them, have them brought up on a complaint (failure to treat with fairness, dignity, and respect), that's the IG catch all, come to think of it, forget all that, I don't want to create any extra work for myself.     quite honestly, that's a big issue I see now in today's Army, everyone get's offended at every little thing and runs to us and complains.  We have lost alot of our ability to take a good A$$ chewing, take it is constructive criticism(if warranted), and drive on with mission.