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Author Topic: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."  (Read 2488 times)

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Jek Tono Porkins

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2017, 04:57:39 pm »

I do, however, believe in winning. That's why they keep score; it kind of matters.

I don't expect us to be Alabama; we do not begin to have their resources in any measure.

I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.

In four years and two games, Bret Bielema is 26-27 (.491). Throw out the two games this year, and his teams have averaged 6.25 wins a season. In the exact same time frame, Houston Nutt's teams went 30-18 (.625) - and I don't think that man could coach his way out of a damn sack. "Yeah, but you HAVE to throw out Bret's first year!" Well, okay, let's do that (notwithstanding the fact that the Rabid Weasel inherited teams from Danny Ford that had suffered through consecutive 4-7 seasons, yet found a way to go 9-3 and finish in the Top 20...something Bielema has yet to accomplish). Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season.

Why so upset after just two games? Maybe because of the narrative that we heard since the end of last season. "Oh, we had some seniors who were cancers in the locker room." "Oh, we had some issues that we couldn't fix during the season, but we've addressed those." Just as occurred during his time at Wisconsin, Bielema supposedly lost focus last year but was re-energized and re-focused on the task at hand. Y'all see that last week, in our home opener on national television and in front of 70,000 fans? I didn't. Then post-game, his approach was to throw players under the bus and claim ignorance - didn't know why we didn't play Hayden more, no idea why the tight ends weren't more involved. Oh, and now we have to re-assess everything. Really? After our first true game? What kind of foundation do we have for that to be necessary?

Yeah, I want our players to be good citizens and graduate. I want our coach to be a fine representative of our university. I also want to win, at what I consider fairly modest levels. The evidence is stacking that Bielema isn't the man for the job.

Who is? Well, if history is any indication (and it usually is), better go find (a) an average coach who can motivate the hell out of our players a couple of times a year and hope he lucks into some home-grown generational talent; or (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.
Yep, that's the way I feel. On paper, Bielema was a great hire. So were many, many other coaches that for whatever reason didn't get it done. But the results just aren't there.

I don't even mind the contract extension. On paper, that was a great decision. It was a risk, but the general feeling after the 2014 season was that although the record wasn't all that great, the team was fiercely competitive against top competition and closed out the season looking like world beaters shutting out Ole Miss and LSU and humiliating Texas in the bowl game. At that point it looked like Bielema was ahead of schedule considering the situation he inherited. But since then it's been the same mixed bag of results, except the team has been less competitive against top competition and the excuses have run out. I hope the team turns it around this season but I don't think that's going to happen. We're stuck with CBB until we can afford to get rid of him. It is what it is.
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lakecityhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2017, 05:04:49 pm »

I guess the thing that bothers me most are the people that act like there are only 2 choices, win-at-all-cost or be mediocre. I don't believe that is true at all.

BB has had kids arrested for PI and other such nonsense that nearly ALL college kids do, Nutt had it, Ford had it, just pick up a newspaper and it pops up all over the country.

Does every team in the top 25 cheat? Do none of them care about graduation rates? APR? Sorry I just can't buy that at all.
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Surfing8

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2017, 05:06:47 pm »

Yep, that's the way I feel. On paper, Bielema was a great hire. So were many, many other coaches that for whatever reason didn't get it done. But the results just aren't there.

I don't even mind the contract extension. On paper, that was a great decision. It was a risk, but the general feeling after the 2014 season was that although the record wasn't all that great, the team was fiercely competitive against top competition and closed out the season looking like world beaters shutting out Ole Miss and LSU and humiliating Texas in the bowl game. At that point it looked like Bielema was ahead of schedule considering the situation he inherited. But since then it's been the same mixed bag of results, except the team has been less competitive against top competition and the excuses have run out. I hope the team turns it around this season but I don't think that's going to happen. We're stuck with CBB until we can afford to get rid of him. It is what it is.

Long failed to recognize the dynamic at UW Bert was operating in... a framework not of his own design, or Long did recognize this and trusted the naive Arkansas fanbase to look no further than OMGRoseBowl! and sing his praises for such a catch.

The contract extension - Wilson typed it out for all to see:  "Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season."

An inexcusable contract extension. 
It carried massive amounts of risk when it was given, and it has been an absolute boat anchor tying us to this failure of a coach.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2017, 05:08:07 pm »

I guess the thing that bothers me most are the people that act like there are only 2 choices, win-at-all-cost or be mediocre. I don't believe that is true at all.

BB has had kids arrested for PI and other such nonsense that nearly ALL college kids do, Nutt had it, Ford had it, just pick up a newspaper and it pops up all over the country.

Does every team in the top 25 cheat? Do none of them care about graduation rates? APR? Sorry I just can't buy that at all.


I don't think people think there are only two choices, most want to win without cheating, that's all.
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Tyro3

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2017, 05:09:35 pm »

Did I miss something? is the season over?
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swineology

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2017, 05:10:39 pm »

We are a 7-8 win (regular season) football program on average.  The problem is that 8 wins seems to be CBB's ceiling, and that is unacceptable.

Bert had us set up for 9 last year until they blew it.
I'd still like to hear the real locker room story
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niels_boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2017, 05:10:45 pm »

So was I, because I like the more traditional style of football; a pro-style attack with a physical, attacking defense. Other than at schools like Alabama and maybe Ohio State, that's a tall order. Just can't get enough top-flight talent on both sides of the football to make that approach work. Those Razorback fans who expressed reservation about that style working at Arkansas when Bielema was hired appear to have been correct.

With de-emphasis on the physicality of the game and the advent of 7-on-7, those days of football are probably gone forever. It's much easier to sign a few really good skill position players and play pitch-and-catch for four quarters.

Personally I'd rather watch a more wide-open offense.  However, the counter-point is that the offense wasn't the problem the last two years.  It was quite good.  CBB is, of course, responsible for the defense as well.  His TOP-style ought to make it easier for Arkansas to put a credible defense on the field.  Give-the-ball-back every three minutes will not make recruiting for defense less challenging.  You need even more quality depth.  That makes the failures on D even more frustrating.  If CBB had been able to stitch together a top-flight Arkansas D, his job wouldn't be in question.

The caveat is that, if you can outscore opponents, who cares about the D?  That's what Petrino did.  However,  his two losses in his final season were by a combined score of 79 - 31 against Bama and LSU.  We weren't any closer to challenging the heavy weights, but we could reign supreme within our weight class.  That's typically been our ceiling, except for the odd year when everything breaks our way.  See abysmal record against Texas.
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Surfing8

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2017, 05:11:37 pm »

I don't think people think there are only two choices, most want to win without cheating, that's all.

Which by the strict definition of the NCAA doesn't happen in the SEC or any P5 conference. 

Unless you're naive enough to believe otherwise.
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Jek Tono Porkins

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2017, 05:12:23 pm »

Long failed to recognize the dynamic at UW Bert was operating in... a framework not of his own design, or Long did recognize this and trusted the naive Arkansas fanbase to look no further than OMGRoseBowl! and sing his praises for such a catch.

The contract extension - Wilson typed it out for all to see:  "Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season."

An inexcusable contract extension. 
It carried massive amounts of risk when it was given, and it has been an absolute boat anchor tying us to this failure of a coach.
The contract extension was signed at the end of his second season when things were looking pretty good. It was a good decision at the time. I'm not mad about it. It just didn't work out.
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wildturkey8

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2017, 05:14:54 pm »

The contract extension was signed at the end of his second season when things were looking pretty good. It was a good decision at the time. I'm not mad about it. It just didn't work out.
It was a poor business decision, doesn't matter how good things were looking. 
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Boarcephus

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2017, 05:15:51 pm »

Long failed to recognize the dynamic at UW Bert was operating in... a framework not of his own design, or Long did recognize this and trusted the naive Arkansas fanbase to look no further than OMGRoseBowl! and sing his praises for such a catch.

Wisconsin hasn't missed a beat since he left. 

Long may not believe in winning at all costs but he's certainly spending huge sums of money of a great number  of people who want to win more than we have. 
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #111 on: September 12, 2017, 05:18:24 pm »

Bama has a good GPA, also the best recruits, the best coaches money can buy, a Dodge Charger in every locker, and an agent on speed dial.....

And conventional wisdom probably says their APR is a load of crap.
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #112 on: September 12, 2017, 05:20:16 pm »

Bert had us set up for 9 last year until they blew it.
I'd still like to hear the real locker room story

We could/should have won 9 in '14 and '15, too.

That's the problem.  He ALWAYS underachieves.
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niels_boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #113 on: September 12, 2017, 05:23:27 pm »

Bert has never built anything. 

To frame the discussion in terms of only the first two games of this season is short-sighted.  The broader body of work is historical, the ineptitude only matched by the idiocy of the undeserved buyout not attached to him.

If he has the job in October, he's not going to be fired after game 2 for a 28-7 loss to a ranked team. Whether he keeps his job or not will depend on how many games he wins in the remaining 83% of the season.  You can't frame his record at all until this season in the books.  His past record just determines how many W's he needs from here out.  His job depends on the future as a function of his past.  The future isn't set yet.
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bphi11ips

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #114 on: September 12, 2017, 05:24:03 pm »

CBB has earned criticism and doubt.  However, in fairness comparing his first four years to Nutt's is not a Nascar evaluation.  I think we have seen enough of Nutt's career to know that he didn't miraculously turn the program around in his first year with his genius.  Clearly Ford had gotten the talent level to a point that Nutt could benefit from a team that was ready to turn the corner against one of our weaker schedules in decades.  Nutt didn't face a a top-40 SOS in his first three years according to Sagarin. 

By contrast, CBB inherited a program plunging into a valley, rather than climbing out. CBB has never faced a non-top-25 SOS by any measure and two consensus top-5 SOS's.  I'm pretty confident that he's a better (certainly no worse) coach than Nutt.  The difference in their records at this point says more about the challenge that they inherited than the quality of their coaching.

To be honest, I don't understand wasting so much energy debating his job status after two games.  If posters want to analyze how unprepared we were for TCU, fine.  When a fifth-year senior QB is next-to-last in all of college FB in QBR after two games, you have some 'splaining to do at CBB's salary.  However, a lot can happen in 10 games.  If the team course corrects and rallies, getting out the pitchforks now will look petulant and pointless.  If the team collapses, his job will be in plenty jeopardy by December without massing at the borders now for the final offensive.

Excellent post.
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Iwastherein1969

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #115 on: September 12, 2017, 05:27:03 pm »

Assuming you are correct, how smart is it to put a provision in a contract that the University couldn't afford to exercise if it wanted to?
its obviously not very smart, in fact its quite stupid, I think I can safely say is your point....so who pulled that stunt ?   Jeff Long...that hand written letter JL written by CBB and received after Long turned on the faucet of tears when firing CBP, has to be near and dear to Jeff Long's heart strings because it seems from an admitted outsider that our AD has no intentions of letting Bret go....we have the money to get it done, getting rid of Bielema, and admittedly it will hurt our purse strings, but sometimes it's best to cut losses and set forth in a different direction no matter what... Bielema must go if after this season we have taken a step back, which seems likely right now...but Long has to go also, so he can fulfill his lifelong dream of being an AD for an academic school...if memory serves, JL allowed his skirt to fly up when Stanford winked at him immediately following Petrino's dismissal and IMO the only reason JL didn't interview for the Stanford job was because the firing of Petrino was too fresh
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DLUXHOG

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #116 on: September 12, 2017, 05:28:48 pm »

You all will be kissing on Jeff and Bert when they end the season 11-1...(I'm not drunk, but wish I was) count on it!   You'll all be saying what a brilliant AD Jeff is for having a significant buyout for Bret...
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Surfing8

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #117 on: September 12, 2017, 05:29:31 pm »

If he has the job in October, he's not going to be fired after game 2 for a 28-7 loss to a ranked team. Whether he keeps his job or not will depend on how many games he wins in the remaining 83% of the season.  You can't frame his record at all until this season in the books.  His past record just determines how many W's he needs from here out.  His job depends on the future as a function of his past.  The future isn't set yet.

You can absolutely frame his record to date before the season is completed. 

It is a track record of mediocrity.

Further - in regards to determining how many W's he needs going forward, I will wager any unbiased party who troubled themselves to watch both the FAM and TCU games would say there's nothing to point to whatsoever as a basis for improvement going forward. 
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niels_boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #118 on: September 12, 2017, 05:36:18 pm »

We could/should have won 9 in '14 and '15, too.

That's the problem.  He ALWAYS underachieves.

He did not underachieve in 2015.  He could have won 9 or 10 against a top-5 SOS, two years removed from a 3-9 team.  That would have been extraordinary.  It looks like underachievement because of the loss to Toledo, a game we should have won.  However, that ignores that the 8 wins included 3 SEC road wins against teams that won 9,10, and 9 games.  Those were not games that we should have won.  In fact, winning all three was overachievement.  Our 5 losses included a 1-point loss to 9-win MSU and a good showing at 14-win Bama.  If Allen doesn't overthrow an open TE in the endzone against Toledo and we get 1 more bounce against MSU, that would have been one of the great seasons in Arkansas history.  It's not fair to thrash him with a wet noodle for not winning 9 games that season, not many Arkansas teams would have.  He got to a quite successful 8 in a very unconventional manner, though.
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niels_boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #119 on: September 12, 2017, 05:40:28 pm »


Further - in regards to determining how many W's he needs going forward, I will wager any unbiased party who troubled themselves to watch both the FAM and TCU games would say there's nothing to point to whatsoever as a basis for improvement going forward.

Yeah, I said the same thing in 2015 when we were 1-3 and felt like an whiny arse by November.  I'm not making that mistake again.  I'll wait until the games have been played. Predictions are difficult, especially about the future.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #120 on: September 12, 2017, 05:43:27 pm »

Which by the strict definition of the NCAA doesn't happen in the SEC or any P5 conference. 

Unless you're naive enough to believe otherwise.

I think you fancy yourself smart enough to understand what I meant, maybe not. I fully realize no program is without $100 handshakes or Level 3 technical violations.
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #121 on: September 12, 2017, 05:48:28 pm »

He did not underachieve in 2015.  He could have won 9 or 10 against a top-5 SOS, two years removed from a 3-9 team.  That would have been extraordinary.  It looks like underachievement because of the loss to Toledo, a game we should have won.  However, that ignores that the 8 wins included 3 SEC road wins against teams that won 9,10, and 9 games.  Those were not games that we should have won.  In fact, winning all three was overachievement.  Our 5 losses included a 1-point loss to 9-win MSU and a good showing at 14-win Bama.  If Allen doesn't overthrow an open TE in the endzone against Toledo and we get 1 more bounce against MSU, that would have been one of the great seasons in Arkansas history.  It's not fair to thrash him with a wet noodle for not winning 9 games that season, not many Arkansas teams would have.  He got to a quite successful 8 in a very unconventional manner, though.

They were good enough to go 5-3 in the SEC, but not good enough to beat Toledo and a 7-6 Texas Tech team at home?

Yeah, not buying that.
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bphi11ips

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #122 on: September 12, 2017, 06:31:12 pm »

They were good enough to go 5-3 in the SEC, but not good enough to beat Toledo and a 7-6 Texas Tech team at home?

Yeah, not buying that.

Tech had Patrick Mahomes, who threw for three scores that day.  Mahomes was the 10th pick in this year's NFL draft.  Tech finished 7-6 in 2015.

Toledo was the preseason pick to win the MAC in 2015.  Their senior QB, Phillip Ely, was an Alabama transfer.  Arkansas outgained Toledo 515 to 318 yards and had 30 first downs to Toledo's 15.  We also had a blocked punt and the games only turnover and 85 yards in penalties.  It was a game we should have won, but Toledo was a good team.  They finished 10-2.
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #123 on: September 12, 2017, 06:31:53 pm »

Tech had Patrick Mahomes, who threw for three scores that day.  Mahomes was the 10th pick in this year's NFL draft.  Tech finished 7-6 in 2015.

Toledo was the preseason pick to win the MAC in 2015.  Their senior QB, Phillip Ely, was an Alabama transfer.  Arkansas outgained Toledo 515 to 318 yards and had 30 first downs to Toledo's 15.  We also had a blocked punt and the games only turnover and 85 yards in penalties.  It was a game we should have won, but Toledo was a good team.  They finished 10-2.

So... I was correct?
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hawgon

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #124 on: September 12, 2017, 06:51:44 pm »

We could/should have won 9 in '14 and '15, too.

That's the problem.  He ALWAYS underachieves.

We've got a seven win team this year.  In Bert world, that means we're winning four.
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hogcard1964

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #125 on: September 12, 2017, 06:59:12 pm »

Tech had Patrick Mahomes, who threw for three scores that day.  Mahomes was the 10th pick in this year's NFL draft.  Tech finished 7-6 in 2015.

Toledo was the preseason pick to win the MAC in 2015.  Their senior QB, Phillip Ely, was an Alabama transfer.  Arkansas outgained Toledo 515 to 318 yards and had 30 first downs to Toledo's 15.  We also had a blocked punt and the games only turnover and 85 yards in penalties.  It was a game we should have won, but Toledo was a good team.  They finished 10-2.

So you're saying we lost to a pretty bad Texas Tech team and also a MAC team?
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bphi11ips

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #126 on: September 12, 2017, 07:07:18 pm »

So you're saying we lost to a pretty bad Texas Tech team and also a MAC team?

No.  I'm pointing out how asinine Wildhog's facetious reply to niels_boar's post was.  Lot's of asinine posts here lately.
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JaketheSnake

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #127 on: September 12, 2017, 07:25:19 pm »

I notice the Long/Bielema defenders are ignoring this thread.

Telling.
You posted this 10 minutes into a thread.  Really calling people out!
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #128 on: September 12, 2017, 07:36:46 pm »

No.  I'm pointing out how asinine Wildhog's facetious reply to niels_boar's post was.  Lot's of asinine posts here lately.

Haha you're too much
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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #129 on: September 12, 2017, 08:00:46 pm »

I am NOT defending Long or Bielema.

I am citing facts.

In the 25 years Arkansas has been in the SEC, the Hogs have had 8 different head coaches.

Now, this number includes Reggie Herring, "head coach" for one bowl game, and Jack Crowe, fired one game into the first SEC season without actually coaching against an SEC opponent.

So make it 6 guys who've held the reins for at least one full season.

25 years. 6 head coaches.

Zero SEC titles.

Exactly three seasons of 10 wins or more. (2006 was 10 wins. 2010 was 10 wins. 2011 was 11 wins).

In contrast, there have been 9 seasons below .500 in the same time period.

That means three times as many losing seasons as seasons with double-digit wins since joining the SEC. 

Arkansas is Oklahoma State is Iowa is Cal is Indiana is North Carolina is Oregon State is any other similar football program that will not win any titles, will not make the 4-team playoff, and will be somewhere between really awful and second-rate any given year.

Point to the glorious past all you want. But Arkansas has demonstrated, for a quarter of a century and counting, its place in the college football landscape.

As a reminder, even Bobby Petrino couldn't beat Alabama, and his 11-win team finished 3rd in the SEC West.

Fire and hire all the coaches and athletic directors you want. I just don't see Arkansas' place changing all that much.

25 years is enough to convince me to not get too worked up about it.
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JaketheSnake

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #130 on: September 12, 2017, 08:03:53 pm »

I am NOT defending Long or Bielema.

I am citing facts.

In the 25 years Arkansas has been in the SEC, the Hogs have had 8 different head coaches.

Now, this number includes Reggie Herring, "head coach" for one bowl game, and Jack Crowe, fired one game into the first SEC season without actually coaching against an SEC opponent.

So make it 6 guys who've held the reins for at least one full season.

25 years. 6 head coaches.

Zero SEC titles.

Exactly three seasons of 10 wins or more. (2006 was 10 wins. 2010 was 10 wins. 2011 was 11 wins).

In contrast, there have been 9 seasons below .500 in the same time period.

That means three times as many losing seasons as seasons with double-digit wins since joining the SEC. 

Arkansas is Oklahoma State is Iowa is Cal is Indiana is North Carolina is Oregon State is any other similar football program that will not win any titles, will not make the 4-team playoff, and will be somewhere between really awful and second-rate any given year.

Point to the glorious past all you want. But Arkansas has demonstrated, for a quarter of a century and counting, its place in the college football landscape.

As a reminder, even Bobby Petrino couldn't beat Alabama, and his 11-win team finished 3rd in the SEC West.

Fire and hire all the coaches and athletic directors you want. I just don't see Arkansas' place changing all that much.

25 years is enough to convince me to not get too worked up about it.
Prepare your web-anus... the haters are coming
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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #131 on: September 12, 2017, 08:05:14 pm »

Let the haters hate all they want.

Math is math.

Win-loss record is win-loss record.

25 years in the SEC is 25 years.

Not all the hate in the world changes any of those numbers.
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WilsonHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #132 on: September 12, 2017, 08:08:09 pm »

Prepare your web-anus... the haters are coming

Do you would prefer to just lay back and accept what we have now?

Sure, our history speaks for itself. We can't control that. Doesn't mean we just give up. That is the worst kind of attitude.

"Ah, well. He's only averaging a little over six wins a year, and none of his teams have finished even in the Top 25, but that's cool. That's about all we can expect."

Not the kind of attitude to be proud of.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 08:21:32 pm by WilsonHog »
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Mo_Better_Hogs

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #133 on: September 12, 2017, 08:15:27 pm »

Yep, that's the way I feel. On paper, Bielema was a great hire. So were many, many other coaches that for whatever reason didn't get it done. But the results just aren't there.

I don't even mind the contract extension. On paper, that was a great decision. It was a risk, but the general feeling after the 2014 season was that although the record wasn't all that great, the team was fiercely competitive against top competition and closed out the season looking like world beaters shutting out Ole Miss and LSU and humiliating Texas in the bowl game. At that point it looked like Bielema was ahead of schedule considering the situation he inherited. But since then it's been the same mixed bag of results, except the team has been less competitive against top competition and the excuses have run out. I hope the team turns it around this season but I don't think that's going to happen. We're stuck with CBB until we can afford to get rid of him. It is what it is.

Good post, all of it. And I remember how I felt at the end of the 2014 season. Sky high. I was ready to campaign for a statue of some of those seniors that year. Like they were here AT the turning point.
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redneckfriend

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #134 on: September 12, 2017, 08:21:51 pm »

Do you would prefer to just lay back and accept what we have now?

Sure, our history speaks for itself. We can't control that. Doesn't mean we just give up. That is the worst kind of attitude.

 No never accept reality. Hire Hugh Freeze immediately because that is the only way out of the 7-8 win box at Arkansas. Face it, the program can't keep cycling honest coaches every few years because the fan base is unrealistic. We hired a tested P-5 coach and he fanned. Now we hire an "up-and-comer" and he will fan. Then a hot DC and he will fan. They can't, without "freezing", get recruits to Arkansas who can compete in the SEC. The ways out of the box are to hire a known cheater or get out of the SEC. The fan base represented on this site are probably, in majority, quite okay with a cheater who doesn't get caught. That is how much winning means. Nothing changes with human nature and Goethe summed it all up a long time ago.
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JaketheSnake

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #135 on: September 12, 2017, 08:21:53 pm »

Do you would prefer to just lay back and accept what we have now?

Sure, our history speaks for itself. We can't control that. Doesn't mean we just give up. That is the worst kind of attitude.
No I dont.  I also dont think we fire a coach after the second game of the season as many around here have stated. 

We can not afford to get rid of CBB right now.   Maybe Long did that on purpose understanding the length CBB needed to build his team.  Maybe it was an idiotic thing that JL dreamed up.  Either way, it's a tough position we are in. 

I'm still on the fence on CBB.  I like what he does outside of his W/L record, but I sure with that was better.  If Kelly is a decent QB next year we could have a really good year.  If he can finish this season above .500, that will be pretty good IMO (for this team.)  Someone will fall on the axe at some point in the next few months.  Maybe Anderson?  Seems the most smoke is under his tail as far as assistants.  CBB would need to make dynamite hire to replace. 
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ChicoHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2017, 08:25:11 pm »

"Winning at all cost" = SABAN (example) Then I take Saban everyday and Sunday regardless how our GPA looks. 
Saban is not "win at all costs".  They have not been on probation since he has been there.  Baylor, USC with Reggie Bush, Mississippi recently, etc.,  That is win at all costs.  Even Urban Liar at Florida had 31 players arrested during his tenure.  Pretty close to winning at all costs also.  Saban not even close to that. 
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hawgmasta

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #137 on: September 12, 2017, 08:27:17 pm »

I am NOT defending Long or Bielema.

I am citing facts.

In the 25 years Arkansas has been in the SEC, the Hogs have had 8 different head coaches.

Now, this number includes Reggie Herring, "head coach" for one bowl game, and Jack Crowe, fired one game into the first SEC season without actually coaching against an SEC opponent.

So make it 6 guys who've held the reins for at least one full season.

25 years. 6 head coaches.

Zero SEC titles.

Exactly three seasons of 10 wins or more. (2006 was 10 wins. 2010 was 10 wins. 2011 was 11 wins).

In contrast, there have been 9 seasons below .500 in the same time period.

That means three times as many losing seasons as seasons with double-digit wins since joining the SEC. 

Arkansas is Oklahoma State is Iowa is Cal is Indiana is North Carolina is Oregon State is any other similar football program that will not win any titles, will not make the 4-team playoff, and will be somewhere between really awful and second-rate any given year.

Point to the glorious past all you want. But Arkansas has demonstrated, for a quarter of a century and counting, its place in the college football landscape.

As a reminder, even Bobby Petrino couldn't beat Alabama, and his 11-win team finished 3rd in the SEC West.

Fire and hire all the coaches and athletic directors you want. I just don't see Arkansas' place changing all that much.

25 years is enough to convince me to not get too worked up about it.

So your saying it IS possible to be on the cusp of going to the SEC championship and win 10-11 games a year with the right coach? That's what I got out of that.
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JaketheSnake

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #138 on: September 12, 2017, 08:27:57 pm »

Saban is not "win at all costs".  They have not been on probation since he has been there.  Baylor, USC with Reggie Bush, Mississippi recently, etc.,  That is win at all costs.  Even Urban Liar at Florida had 31 players arrested during his tenure.  Pretty close to winning at all costs also.  Saban not even close to that. 
Agreed.  If we thought we could get Saban, pay the buyout and pay Saban anything he wants.  Make him Governor, Chancellor, and CEO of Wal-mart.
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hawgmasta

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #139 on: September 12, 2017, 08:28:12 pm »

And I know we've been to the SEC championship multiple times. .
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WilsonHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #140 on: September 12, 2017, 08:29:02 pm »

No never accept reality. Hire Hugh Freeze immediately because that is the only way out of the 7-8 win box at Arkansas. Face it, the program can't keep cycling honest coaches every few years because the fan base is unrealistic. We hired a tested P-5 coach and he fanned. Now we hire an "up-and-comer" and he will fan. Then a hot DC and he will fan. They can't, without "freezing", get recruits to Arkansas who can compete in the SEC. The ways out of the box are to hire a known cheater or get out of the SEC. The fan base represented on this site are probably, in majority, quite okay with a cheater who doesn't get caught. That is how much winning means. Nothing changes with human nature and Goethe summed it all up a long time ago.

Bielema has yet to fit within the "7-8 win box" at Arkansas. In fact, split the difference and look at it this way. To average 7.5 wins over his first six years here, Bielema will have to win 10 games this year AND next year. Extend that out to eight years just to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he still would have to average 8.75 wins each of the next four years.
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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #141 on: September 12, 2017, 08:29:24 pm »

WilsonHog.

It doesn't matter what kind of "attitude" Hog fans have.

Arkansas football is limited by money, access to top recruits, and whole host of factors due to history and geography.

You could dump cash in by the truckload, and hire the biggest, flashiest name for a coach.

Arkansas might have a few good seasons, but simply couldn't sustain it. (Petrino got fired before his next lean season happened).

At absolute best, Arkansas can hope to be a roller coaster. Hitting some okay highs, followed by way down in the bottom of the loop. Only Hog fans usually holler for Coach X's head during the down cycle in those cases.

Citizens of Portugal can have all the pride in their country they want. They can believe Portugal to be the best place in the world. Portugal will never ever be a world power, due to a whole host of factors. Even if they were one of the superpowers back in the 1500s.

I think the same applies to Arkansas football. Arkansas just isn't a program that will be among the greats. Even on the occasional seasons they are good, they won't be great, and will not be able to sustain it.

 And it's been proven over and over and over.

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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #142 on: September 12, 2017, 08:33:27 pm »

Hawgmasta, you wrote "So your saying it IS possible to be on the cusp of going to the SEC championship and win 10-11 games a year with the right coach? That's what I got out of that."

I know Hog fans well enough to know THAT will NOT satisfy them.

Houston Nutt won 10 games one season, and came within a fumbled punt of beating Florida and Tim Tebow for the SEC title.

Didn't satisfy Hog fans.

Ken Hatfield was run off after back-to-back 10-win seasons, and a pair of SWC Conference titles because fans were not satisfied he didn't win "the big game" and couldn't get it done when it counted against Miami, UCLA and Tennessee.

Sometimes winning 10 or 11 games and getting on the edge of an SEC title will only enrage Hog fans, who are so desperate to be seen as "the elite" of college football.

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hawgmasta

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2017, 08:39:46 pm »

Hawgmasta, you wrote "So your saying it IS possible to be on the cusp of going to the SEC championship and win 10-11 games a year with the right coach? That's what I got out of that."

I know Hog fans well enough to know THAT will NOT satisfy them.

Houston Nutt won 10 games one season, and came within a fumbled punt of beating Florida and Tim Tebow for the SEC title.

Didn't satisfy Hog fans.

Ken Hatfield was run off after back-to-back 10-win seasons, and a pair of SWC Conference titles because fans were not satisfied he didn't win "the big game" and couldn't get it done when it counted against Miami, UCLA and Tennessee.

Sometimes winning 10 or 11 games and getting on the edge of an SEC title will only enrage Hog fans, who are so desperate to be seen as "the elite" of college football.

I think it would be enough to have hope that the next few years it would be possible.

Nutts decline was a lot more complicated than that. Ken Hatfield coached thirty years ago; a lot has changed including our conference in which it's even harder to get 10-11 wins.

Right now I have no hope we'll ever get ten wins with CBB. Maybe 9 every 5 years or so, with a lot of 6 and 7 win seasons in between.
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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2017, 08:39:51 pm »

Oh yeah, Hawgmasta, about those "multiple" trips to the SEC Title game.

Three trips.

1995. Florida clobbered the Hogs 34-3

2002. Georgia stomped Arkansas 30-3.

2007. Florida beat Hogs 38-28.

Been outscored 102-34 in the SEC Championship Game.

Failed to score an actual touchdown the first 2 trips to that game.
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hawgmasta

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #145 on: September 12, 2017, 08:43:27 pm »


Citizens of Portugal can have all the pride in their country they want. They can believe Portugal to be the best place in the world. Portugal will never ever be a world power, due to a whole host of factors. Even if they were one of the superpowers back in the 1500s.

I think the same applies to Arkansas football. Arkansas just isn't a program that will be among the greats. Even on the occasional seasons they are good, they won't be great, and will not be able to sustain it.

 And it's been proven over and over and over.

I think that's a very interesting example because in the worlds most popular sport, soccer, Portugal is a very dangerous and highly rated team that includes probably the best player in the world. They take great pride in their national team despite having limited resources as their larger competitors do.

Arkansas doesn't have the best player in the world but with a well coached and an above average talented team they could be tapping on the door.
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oldbooniehog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #146 on: September 12, 2017, 08:45:11 pm »

And to clarify, I am not defending Bielema.

Fire him all you want to. Run him out of the state.

Hire the coach of your dreams. It won't matter.

Well, it will matter exactly this much.

It will make the difference between finishing 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West vs finishing 6th or 7th.

And that's about as good as it gets for Arkansas since 1992. 
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hawgmasta

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2017, 08:48:05 pm »

Oh yeah, Hawgmasta, about those "multiple" trips to the SEC Title game.

Three trips.

1995. Florida clobbered the Hogs 34-3

2002. Georgia stomped Arkansas 30-3.

2007. Florida beat Hogs 38-28.

Been outscored 102-34 in the SEC Championship Game.

Failed to score an actual touchdown the first 2 trips to that game.

Hey but at least we have made it, as Lloyd in dumb in dumber once said, "So your saying there's a chance!"
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redneckfriend

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #148 on: September 12, 2017, 08:53:13 pm »

Bielema has yet to fit within the "7-8 win box" at Arkansas. In fact, split the difference and look at it this way. To average 7.5 wins over his first six years here, Bielema will have to win 10 games this year AND next year. Extend that out to eight years just to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he still would have to average 8.75 wins each of the next four years.

And I'm not saying Bielema will be a 7 win box coach but I would guess that is where he will end up if he stays (not counting the first couple of years). But that isn't going to be good enough for the fan base. The point was- if you want that "old time feeling" that fans got with Bobby P. you will either have to tolerate a cheater or get out of the SEC. Now Bobby P. wasn't a cheater (we all unfortunately know what he was), but as I said in another thread, probably the best offensive head coach active today. Not likely that happens again at Arkansas so the alternative, if we stay in the SEC,  is a cheater who can bring in recruits. And we can all turn a blind eye and be happy that we are winning 9-10 games a year (until the NCAA steps in).

Otherwise it is just an endless succession of failed 7 win (or less) coaches passing through and an increasingly disgruntled and cynical fan base. I mean look at what has been happening here today. Jeff Long, for God's sake, who did nothing but fire a married coach who was using athletic dept. money to hire his girlfriend (and who lied but I sort of forgive that because who wouldn't) and the hire Brett Bielema is being treated as the coming of the anti-Christ. If that isn't an example of fan psychopathology I don't know what is.
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TNRazorbacker

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #149 on: September 12, 2017, 08:57:19 pm »

If Long's gripe or defense of this asinine statement was in line with Arkansas actually being a dirty/"win at all" type of program through the years, then I could understand him saying something like this.  But we've always been pretty clean in relation to a lot of other SEC programs.  I also remember we were always pretty upstanding in our old SWC days as well.

Him coming out with this nonsense when the football program is down is an obvious indicator of him attempting to "polish the turd" that is currently Arkansas football.

This.

Its fine to say we aren't a "win at all costs" university. Nobody assumes nor expects that. Its not ok to make this your excuse for losing though and thats exactly what it sounds like.

When or how you say something is often much more telling than what you say.
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