Concern about cornerbacks and talent

[Biggus Piggus]

Well tackles aren't the best indicator of production by a DB.  Also, if a player isn't improving each year then there is a problem.  Why do think everyone is so high on Tennessee?  Because the return almost everyone and they expect those players to improve.

All of this. The best cornerbacks do not make a lot of tackles. Nobody throws at them. Safeties had better make a lot of tackles in some schemes; others funnel tackles to the MLB, and safeties get less.

Remember when Oakland picked up Larry Brown after he had two INTs for Dallas in the Super Bowl? People threw his way because they didn't want to throw at Deion. Brown looked positively blah with the Raiders. He played 12 games in two seasons and was cut. You don't want the corner who gets all the picks.

[The Kig]

The best cornerbacks do not make a lot of tackles. Nobody throws at them.

Well... at least we got 50% of this right last year.  The issue is we don't have a lock down corner.

Maybe I should have looked at pass defense from 14 to 15, but I have little doubt that our top 10 overall 2014 defense gave up less passing yards. 


Edit:  Actually went and looked it up. 

2014 Pass Defense ranked 55th giving up 221.4 yards/game.

2015 Pass Defense ranked 120th giving up 284.5 yards/game.

So, the argument about having most of those guys back and them getting better with experience just because ...experience doesn't hold water.  The difference will hopefully come with the impact of Rhoads and stronger LB/DL play AND them learning. 

[GuvHog]

Well... at least we got 50% of this right last year.  The issue is we don't have a lock down corner.

Maybe I should have looked at pass defense from 14 to 15, but I have little doubt that our top 10 overall 2014 defense gave up less passing yards. 


Edit:  Actually went and looked it up. 

2014 Pass Defense ranked 55th giving up 221.4 yards/game.

2015 Pass Defense ranked 120th giving up 284.5 yards/game.

So, the argument about having most of those guys back and them getting better with experience just because ...experience doesn't hold water.  The difference will hopefully come with the impact of Rhoads and stronger LB/DL play AND them learning. 

The talent in the defensive backfield wasn't the problem last year. It was confusion over assignments and the scheme which indicates coaching issues. That's why the the defensive backfield coach was let go and Rhoades was brought in.

[factchecker]

Well... at least we got 50% of this right last year.  The issue is we don't have a lock down corner.

Maybe I should have looked at pass defense from 14 to 15, but I have little doubt that our top 10 overall 2014 defense gave up less passing yards. 


Edit:  Actually went and looked it up. 

2014 Pass Defense ranked 55th giving up 221.4 yards/game.

2015 Pass Defense ranked 120th giving up 284.5 yards/game.

So, the argument about having most of those guys back and them getting better with experience just because ...experience doesn't hold water.  The difference will hopefully come with the impact of Rhoads and stronger LB/DL play AND them learning. 

Legit question... where are you getting your stats?

I have the 2014 Pass Defense ranked #37 while giving up 208.8 yards/game : http://www.cfbstats.com/2014/leader/national/team/defense/split01/category02/sort01.html

and 2015 pass defense #117 giving up 275.2 yards/game: http://www.cfbstats.com/2015/leader/national/team/defense/split01/category02/sort01.html

[The Kig]

Legit question... where are you getting your stats?

Don't remember off the top of my head.  Searched a couple of places.  It was either ESPN or NCAA.com.  The yards were pretty close for each year, so the point remains that we regressed. Whoever gets the blame... Coaches (replaced), scheme (giving the WRs cushion and no pressure from line) or personnel,  it's clear we gave up more yards passing in 2015.

[factchecker]

it's clear we gave up more yards passing in 2015.

Agreed.

[Pig in the Pokey]

Sorry, could have sworn we were talking about last year's DB's and improvement expectations for this year.  As with 2014 though... pressure from Spaight, Flowers, Ellis, Collins and Philon made the rest of that defense better.  We didn't see that last year and it obviously hurt.  I even specified in my original post that bringing in Paul Rhoads and getting pressure from the DL/LB's were reasons for optimism, but don't agree that simply adding a year to an OBVIOUS weak area of the defense will by default ensure they are going to be better.   Somehow I have spent the rest of the thread defending that reality. 

Per ATLHogfan1's post above...

As BP says, it was a trust issue between our coaches and what they thought our players were capable of doing in the secondary.

So... to answer your question about my expectations for this year, I hope that Paul Rhoads can do for the DB's what Dan Enos did for BA...but have it click before half the season is over.  I've gone on record saying I think this team can win 11, but will probably win 9, which is a hell of a lot higher than many of the people calling me out. 

But I will bite- almost everyone from the 2014 DB's?  Really?  Maybe in total # of bodies, but not production.

Top DB Stats for 2014:
Alan Turner- 4th on the team in tackles.  Pretty sure he isn't here.
Rohan Gaines- 5th in tackles.  Gone
Jared Collin's- 6th in tackles (53).  There's one.
DJ Dean- 12th in tackles (23). 
Henre Toliver- 14th in tackles (18)
Josh Liddell- 20th in tackles (12).
Kevin Richardson- 26th in tackles (8 )

so, Alan Turner was the key 

No, man. The difference from 14 to 15 wasnt the secondary, it was the triangle all leaving. The triangle is back this year and the secondary will play more like 14.

[Biggus Piggus]

I got these off the (newly [CENSORED] up) NCAA statistics site.

Pass efficiency defense, Arkansas ranked

49th in 2014 (rating 123.39)
103rd in 2015 (rating 141.15)

Quality of opposition varied -- Texas Tech and Ole Miss upgraded QBs. (Auto-correct hates "Dak" btw.) Hogs did not get to play Nicholls or NIU with its starting QB hurt, or Rebels without their top receiver, or Texas.

But maybe it's telling that the Hogs held MSU to 17 points in 2014 and 51 points in 2015. Season stats would have looked even worse without playing Missouri in a rainstorm with its poor backup QB.

All the OT games mess up traditional comparisons such as yardage and points, but you can't explain away pass efficiency defense.

[bennyl08]

Sorry, could have sworn we were talking about last year's DB's and improvement expectations for this year.  As with 2014 though... pressure from Spaight, Flowers, Ellis, Collins and Philon made the rest of that defense better.  We didn't see that last year and it obviously hurt.  I even specified in my original post that bringing in Paul Rhoads and getting pressure from the DL/LB's were reasons for optimism, but don't agree that simply adding a year to an OBVIOUS weak area of the defense will by default ensure they are going to be better.   Somehow I have spent the rest of the thread defending that reality. 

Per ATLHogfan1's post above...

As BP says, it was a trust issue between our coaches and what they thought our players were capable of doing in the secondary.

So... to answer your question about my expectations for this year, I hope that Paul Rhoads can do for the DB's what Dan Enos did for BA...but have it click before half the season is over.  I've gone on record saying I think this team can win 11, but will probably win 9, which is a hell of a lot higher than many of the people calling me out. 

But I will bite- almost everyone from the 2014 DB's?  Really?  Maybe in total # of bodies, but not production.

Top DB Stats for 2014:
Alan Turner- 4th on the team in tackles.  Pretty sure he isn't here.
Rohan Gaines- 5th in tackles.  Gone
Jared Collin's- 6th in tackles (53).  There's one.
DJ Dean- 12th in tackles (23). 
Henre Toliver- 14th in tackles (18)
Josh Liddell- 20th in tackles (12).
Kevin Richardson- 26th in tackles (8 )

The only three players gone are the S's and the nickel with Tevin. Those safeties were by far the worst part of our defense in 2013 as well before being much better due to a different scheme in 2014.

Your argument was basically that returning people from a really bad unit the year before isn't a good thing. Our 2013 pass defense was atrocious. The 2014 defense was almost identical, but the scheme changed and suddenly the defense was good. 2015, we went back to the 2013 scheme because we lacked playmakers at LB and the secondary of 2014 that was so good reverted back to the 2013 level of pass defense.

The players we have have demonstrated an ability to play very, very good defense. However, their ability to play is dependent on the guys around them and the scheme used. They aren't good enough to cover for 5 seconds, but you can probably count the players on one hand who are good enough to do that.

Your concerns you listed were at corner. Dean and Collins were are starting two boundary corners in 2014 in the second half of the season when the defense kicked it up a notch. Your post only focused on the corners and they have shown that in the right scheme, they can do their job. Remember Amari Cooper and how little he did vs us despite being an elite receiver?

Corners playing up close to the LoS isn't something Rhoads is bringing in. Robb Smith already had that and has already used it. People who say that apparently have a very short memory (not saying you have mentioned that in this thread, but it has been mentioned recently on hogville).

[The Kig]

Your argument was basically that returning people from a really bad unit the year before isn't a good thing.

The players we have have demonstrated an ability to play very, very good defense. However, their ability to play is dependent on the guys around them and the scheme used. They aren't good enough to cover for 5 seconds, but you can probably count the players on one hand who are good enough to do that.

Your concerns you listed were at corner. Dean and Collins were are starting two boundary corners in 2014 in the second half of the season when the defense kicked it up a notch. Your post only focused on the corners and they have shown that in the right scheme, they can do their job. Remember Amari Cooper and how little he did vs us despite being an elite receiver?

Maybe a misunderstanding... I'm not saying that they won't (and the Defense as a whole) be better.  In fact, I am counting on an improved Defense with the addition of Rhoads and better pressure.  Just that it wasn't a foregone  conclusion that they would improve with time in service. 

Absolutely right about a true lock-down corner.  Very few teams ever have one...so they compensate by getting to the QB.  Give a decent QB time and eventually a WR will get open...which is part of what happened last year.  The cushion combined with lack of pressure killed us.  Bend don't break only works if you eventually get a stop before they score.  If memory serves, we did some of that in 2014, but our RedZone D came through big time.

Last year was twilight zone... CRS was deemed a genius for 2014 and on the hotseat following 2015. Our offense was inconsistent in 2014 and one of the most remarkable I have seen in my 40+ years of watching the Hogs, especially in the 2ND half where we could score/answer on any.  If we put both together, watch out this year...

[Biggus Piggus]

Last year was twilight zone... CRS was deemed a genius for 2014 and on the hotseat following 2015. Our offense was inconsistent in 2014 and one of the most remarkable I have seen in my 40+ years of watching the Hogs, especially in the 2ND half where we could score/answer on any.  If we put both together, watch out this year...

Last year's pass defense was outlier-bad, one of the worst Arkansas has ever had. That because of really bad results vs. Texas Tech, aTm, Alabama, UT Martin, Ole Miss and Mississippi State.

Even LSU threw for 271 yards and completed 60%. Auburn passed for 254 yards.

Arkansas's best pass D came against Missouri (awful QB, bad weather), Kansas State (bad passer), Tennessee and Toledo. The game at Knoxville was a terrific save after a 1-3 start. Heaven knows where the season might have gone.