Concern about cornerbacks and talent

[Hog Solo]

Seemed to be a big concern after last year and in recruiting season.  The biggest catch we had with recruiting  after striking out with a few others,went down with the injury to britto.  How concerned should we be that we are down to a few guys from last year that couldn't stop the pass? 

[colbs]

Seemed to be a big concern after last year and in recruiting season.  The biggest catch we had with recruiting  after striking out with a few others,went down with the injury to britto.  How concerned should we be that we are down to a few guys from last year that couldn't stop the pass? 

1. Paul Rhoads
2. Return pretty much everyone from last year
3.  The pass rush should be better which will help the CBs.

[The Kig]

1. Paul Rhoads
2. Return pretty much everyone from last year
3.  The pass rush should be better which will help the CBs.

#1 & 3 on the money. #2 WTH?  Returning everyone from a terrible unit isn't an argument for how we will be improved.   Hopefully they learned something or... I just can't go there.

[RME]

#1 & 3 on the money. #2 WTH?  Returning everyone from a terrible unit isn't an argument for how we will be improved.   Hopefully they learned something or... I just can't go there.

Because players don't learn/get better over time with more experience, right?

[The Kig]

Because players don't learn/get better over time with more experience, right?

Sometimes...but banking on going from one of the worst pass Defenses to one of the best with the same personnel is a pretty big ask.  Usually that type of performance gets you replaced...which was what the OP was talking about.  The fact that we didn't bring anyone in has more to do with them still being back there than some amazing improvements.   

I hope they did get better/learn with more experience.

[FreshHog]

Because players don't learn/get better over time with more experience, right?

Nope, not in Arkansas. Improvement is a myth okay? 

[FreshHog]

Sometimes...but banking on going from one of the worst pass Defenses to one of the best with the same personnel is a pretty big ask.  Usually that type of performance gets you replaced...which was what the OP was talking about.  The fact that we didn't bring anyone in has more to do with them still being back there than some amazing improvements.   

I hope they did get better/learn with more experience.

Those guys went from one of the best to one of the worst in 1 season after the Dline stopped having ridiculous pressure with Flowers and co. Whos too say the opposite wont happen this year?

[AugustaHog]

The same CBs from '14 minus Tevin and with two years of seasoning SHOULD be better.  They were outstanding two years ago and somehow regressed last year.  Depth is an issue, but the starters plus Dean should be better than ever.  As long as the philosophy is no longer to let them catch the ball with 10 yds of freedom, we should be fine.  They get tutelage from both Smith and Rhoads so I would expect better results.  If not, my opinion of CRS will be greatly diminished.

[onebadrubi]

Sometimes...but banking on going from one of the worst pass Defenses to one of the best with the same personnel is a pretty big ask.  Usually that type of performance gets you replaced...which was what the OP was talking about.  The fact that we didn't bring anyone in has more to do with them still being back there than some amazing improvements.   

I hope they did get better/learn with more experience.

You must be talking about our pass offense from 14 to 15... Oh wait nice that would prove you are wrong... 

[onebadrubi]

Last year you can lay blame at the feet of the DB's. Db's can not cover receivers when there is no pass rush. You add Philon and flowers to last years pass rush and our DB's all of a sudden look like a top d again. You also can't blame the lb blown assignments at the feet of the DB's.

[The Kig]

Last year you can lay blame at the feet of the DB's. Db's can not cover receivers when there is no pass rush. You add Philon and flowers to last years pass rush and our DB's all of a sudden look like a top d again. You also can't blame the lb blown assignments at the feet of the DB's.

Read the whole thread or just pick out what you want from individual comments? 

I started by crediting the coaching change and the increased pressure from the DL pass rush as reasons for optimism that the DBs would look better.  Our DL should be imposing this year, which will give the DBs some better looks for Ints due to hurried passes. 

My ONLY contention was agreement with the OP that we didn't add any appreciable depth to a group that WAS a weakness last year.  Part of that indeed was LB depth, which is marginally better this year.  However,  simply expecting that a group that didn't have anyone to challenge them for playing time to be better because they are a year older isn't realistic. 

Does that mean "abandon ship, we're gonna suck"?  No.  We could be world beaters on Defense.  Or we could look like last year's team and be terrible in pass defense because we have the same personnel doing the same thing and expecting a different result.  Insanity,  right?

[Temprees]

Article in Ark Democrat Gazette seems to indicate that cornerback play will be much improved. 

[Cinco de Hogo]

I have seen players, units and teams go from bad to good in one year so it's possible.  2013 to 2014 would be a good example.  However overall we have had such a weak secondary it's hard to get excited about them, especially now with injuries. 

I got to say though if you were hinging your expectations for this year on freshmen we would likely be in trouble anyway.  Hope a year older and Rhoads makes a difference because that and DL play is were its at.

[Hogwild]

ESPN has this unit ranked ahead of South Carolina in the conference.

13. Arkansas: Well, three starters return, but this unit finished dead last in the SEC, allowing 275 passing yards per game in 2015. Former Iowa State head coach Paul Rhoads is now the defensive backs coach, and hopes to have a solid foundation with upperclassmen Jared Collins, Henre Toliver and Josh Liddell. Sophomore Santos Ramirez should start opposite Liddell at safety, and junior college transfer Britto Tutt will vie for a cornerback spot, especially with senior D.J. Dean out with a hamstring injury.

but pass defense isn't just about the secondary, the front seven are a big factor.  Our front 7 is ranked much higher.

8. Arkansas: Most of the Razorbacks' defensive line is back, including returning sack leader Deatrich Wise Jr. (eight sacks, all in SEC games), Taiwan Johnson (who is moving to nose guard) and Jeremiah Ledbetter (who is moving from end to defensive tackle). Five-star recruit McTelvin Agim probably brings the most intrigue. At linebacker, senior Brooks Ellis hopes for an All-SEC caliber season and Dre Greenlaw is back after a strong true freshman campaign.

[East TN HAWG]

CBB said the D Backs will be the most improved unit on the team.  CPR stated that these guys are smart. 

[DeltaBoy]

Rhodes will have them playing much better.

[colbs]

Sometimes...but banking on going from one of the worst pass Defenses to one of the best with the same personnel is a pretty big ask.  Usually that type of performance gets you replaced...which was what the OP was talking about.  The fact that we didn't bring anyone in has more to do with them still being back there than some amazing improvements.   

I hope they did get better/learn with more experience.

I don't think he was talking about going from one of the worst to one of the best.  I think he was wondering if the CBs would improve much.  I gave reasons I think they will be improved from last year.  Players improve from year to year so that's not crazy to think a player will improve with another year under his belt.  They have more players they can count on this year.  Mainly because some of the freshmen and Sophomores from last year have improved.  So they have 4-5 that can help vs 3-4 last year.  Most of the two deep are JRs and SRs.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

The one thing I've read during pre-season that gives me the most hope is that Coach Rhoades has them playing press coverage rather than the ten yard cushion coverage we've seen and endured for so many years.  Sure, we may get beat and burned from time to time, but we also (hopefully) won't be giving up the constant short route completions (anybody remember the Toledo game??) that move the chains so easily for the opponents.

[Bacon_Bitz]

CBB said the D Backs will be the most improved unit on the team.  CPR stated that these guys are smart.

He did say this.  And CBB doesn't usually blow hot air.  He's a straight shooter.  Although he did oversell the d-line a little bit last year. 

He's also on record saying Liddell should now be competing against the best safeties in the SEC b/c he's so good and separated himself from others on the team.  He said the same thing about BA last year and was right about that.

[GuvHog]

Read the whole thread or just pick out what you want from individual comments? 

I started by crediting the coaching change and the increased pressure from the DL pass rush as reasons for optimism that the DBs would look better.  Our DL should be imposing this year, which will give the DBs some better looks for Ints due to hurried passes. 

My ONLY contention was agreement with the OP that we didn't add any appreciable depth to a group that WAS a weakness last year.  Part of that indeed was LB depth, which is marginally better this year.  However,  simply expecting that a group that didn't have anyone to challenge them for playing time to be better because they are a year older isn't realistic. 

Does that mean "abandon ship, we're gonna suck"?  No.  We could be world beaters on Defense.  Or we could look like last year's team and be terrible in pass defense because we have the same personnel doing the same thing and expecting a different result.  Insanity,  right?

If you watched the SEC network Hog Preview last night, you would have heard both Stoerner and McElroy agree that talent wasn't the problem in the Hog defensive backfield last year. The problem was confusion over assignments and the scheme which reflects coaching issues. The fact that the secondary coach was let go and Rhoades was hired to correct the situation pretty well bears that out.

[Karma]

I think its reasonable to be concerned about our CBs given last year's performance, but there is also reason for optimism with the coaching change and another year of experience.

[hogsanity]

#1 & 3 on the money. #2 WTH?  Returning everyone from a terrible unit isn't an argument for how we will be improved.   Hopefully they learned something or... I just can't go there.

Were they terrible because of the scheme or are they just bad players? I hated to see them lined up giving such big cushions because you just knew a 5 yard hitch or a slant was coming. 

[Biggus Piggus]

#1 & 3 on the money. #2 WTH?  Returning everyone from a terrible unit isn't an argument for how we will be improved.   Hopefully they learned something or... I just can't go there.

Funny how everybody says TCU returns a bunch of players from a mediocre defense and expects them to improve with age. Arkansas returns experienced players, and fans don't expect any improvement at all, even with a freaking former head coach as their position coach.

[Grizzlyfan]

Sometimes...but banking on going from one of the worst pass Defenses to one of the best with the same personnel is a pretty big ask.  Usually that type of performance gets you replaced...which was what the OP was talking about.  The fact that we didn't bring anyone in has more to do with them still being back there than some amazing improvements.   

I hope they did get better/learn with more experience.

If you are hesitant to believe that last years unit can get significantly better then #1 on the list doesn't mean much either.

[Oklahawg]

If coaching matters, then you have to like UA's chances of improvement. An "A" list hire, if there ever was one, at a position of great need.

[Atlhogfan1]

Our scheme in the back 7 is read and react and keep the action in front.  When you have inexperience, the reading takes a little longer thus delaying the reaction.  Playing softer and giving even more space is a way to reduce the risk of this slower reaction time leading to big plays.  When you don't have a consistent pass rush, the problem gets even worse.  Soft coverages made softer. 

This is where we can hold onto hope:
More experience could lead to faster reads and reactions.
More trust in the back 7 reaction times and execution could lead to less space and thus easier throws being given especially to the spread offenses.
Rhoads helping in the reading development leading to faster reaction.
Better pass rush with Wise being effective from week 1 and someone else emerging to help including the Fr.


Last season was a result of too much space being given to offenses to do what they wanted.  Combo of personnel and scheme with neither helping the other. 

[trashcan maN]

.

[HawgTrough]

the 7 second drag across the middle was the killer last year. No pass rush and the LBs had no prayer of covering it. We'll be improved

[Hoggish1]

See Colbs...

[Biggus Piggus]

Our scheme in the back 7 is read and react and keep the action in front.  When you have inexperience, the reading takes a little longer thus delaying the reaction.  Playing softer and giving even more space is a way to reduce the risk of this slower reaction time leading to big plays.  When you don't have a consistent pass rush, the problem gets even worse.  Soft coverages made softer. 

This is where we can hold onto hope:
More experience could lead to faster reads and reactions.
More trust in the back 7 reaction times and execution could lead to less space and thus easier throws being given especially to the spread offenses.
Rhoads helping in the reading development leading to faster reaction.
Better pass rush with Wise being effective from week 1 and someone else emerging to help including the Fr.


Last season was a result of too much space being given to offenses to do what they wanted.  Combo of personnel and scheme with neither helping the other. 

There's more than one scheme in the back seven, btw.

Last season, Arkansas played zone against spread passing opponents, because the coaches did not trust the secondary to play man. This year, they are playing more man. Supposedly.

Against a spread passing offense, nobody's going to get to the QB in time with zone coverage, so the Dline should be playing containment more than anything. Arkansas didn't do that. The pass rushers ran themselves out of containment. If the QB wished, he could run for a first down at will.

[Temprees]

Were they terrible because of the scheme or are they just bad players? I hated to see them lined up giving such big cushions because you just knew a 5 yard hitch or a slant was coming. 

Do you think that the players lined up where they wanted to, are did the line up where they were told to so. 

If it's 3rd down and 3, and the CB is lined up with a 7-10 yard cushion, the CB has no chance to stop the first down completion on a slant or hitch. They could hope that the QB threw a bad pass.  The DLman won't be able to get to the QB in time.

[Tejano Jawg]

Against a spread passing offense, nobody's going to get to the QB in time with zone coverage, so the Dline should be playing containment more than anything. Arkansas didn't do that. The pass rushers ran themselves out of containment. If the QB wished, he could run for a first down at will.

This was something I remember being such a killer...against Toledo and with the Mahomes kid.

If our secondary is better...fine. But if you combine that with an improved pass rush (which has to happen)...that's way more than fine. That's where I hope things net out for us this year.

Something else, DB/corner is the hardest position on the field. And those guys can improve a lot in one year. So we'll see. Ancient history here...the first team that Houston Nutt inherited had an incredible secondary, including 3 all-SEC players. And 2 of those played many years in the League. I don't remember anyone being too optimistic going into that year, based on the year before.

[Atlhogfan1]

There's more than one scheme in the back seven, btw.

Last season, Arkansas played zone against spread passing opponents, because the coaches did not trust the secondary to play man. This year, they are playing more man. Supposedly.

Against a spread passing offense, nobody's going to get to the QB in time with zone coverage, so the Dline should be playing containment more than anything. Arkansas didn't do that. The pass rushers ran themselves out of containment. If the QB wished, he could run for a first down at will.

I'm aware. 

Yes, I agree why we played the way we did in the secondary last season.

I do hope we will be playing more aggressive including mixing in man and our players are capable of doing it.

The dline should stay in their lanes when unable to get to the passer in time especially against teams with qb's willing to run.  Absolutely.  It was the adjustment Florida and LSU made against Manziel.  Kept him inside and without running lanes as their games went on.  What they had we haven't was great corners and DC's willing to allow them to play man.   

[Atlhogfan1]

Do you think that the players lined up where they wanted to, are did the line up where they were told to so. 

If it's 3rd down and 3, and the CB is lined up with a 7-10 yard cushion, the CB has no chance to stop the first down completion on a slant or hitch. They could hope that the QB threw a bad pass.  The DLman won't be able to get to the QB in time.

As BP says, it was a trust issue between our coaches and what they thought our players were capable of doing in the secondary.  A first down and come up and tackle was preferred to a much bigger play or long TD.  Slow death and hoped for a mistake or lack of execution often against the spread teams.

[Hogs run wild]

watching the aTm spring game, that 7 yard cushion better not be there this year or we will get beat again. they were slinging it at will, just like TTech did to us. if we want a blue print on how to play quick passing teams, we need to watch how LSU does it. I believe LSU has not lost to aTm since they joined the SEC, that includes the jonny moneybags seasons. and yes, they spanked TTech last year too.

[Atlhogfan1]

watching the aTm spring game, that 7 yard cushion better not be there this year or we will get beat again. they were slinging it at will, just like TTech did to us. if we want a blue print on how to play quick passing teams, we need to watch how LSU does it. I believe LSU has not lost to aTm since they joined the SEC, that includes the jonny moneybags seasons. and yes, they spanked TTech last year too.

We haven't shown to have the same type of defensive personnel LSU has had especially in the Manziel seasons.  LSU was more successful than Bama as they were more versatile. 

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/15/5709380/lsu-defense-john-chavis-spread-offenses

[jackflash]

I am going to take await and see approach on our DB

[Danny J]

The one thing I've read during pre-season that gives me the most hope is that Coach Rhoades has them playing press coverage rather than the ten yard cushion coverage we've seen and endured for so many years.  Sure, we may get beat and burned from time to time, but we also (hopefully) won't be giving up the constant short route completions (anybody remember the Toledo game??) that move the chains so easily for the opponents.

Dear God I hope that's the case. Spread teams picked us apart with that cushion.

[bennyl08]

#1 & 3 on the money. #2 WTH?  Returning everyone from a terrible unit isn't an argument for how we will be improved.   Hopefully they learned something or... I just can't go there.

You thought the 2014 defense was a terrible secondary? How high of expectations do you have? Because we return almost everyone from that unit.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

I am going to take await and see approach on our DB

Well, I'll a wait my Amazon delivery.

[Muskliketusk]

Roads ain't had a pass defense worth a crud at Iowa State. Now I'm supposed to think he's some kinda savior. I ain't seeing it. He must be some DB guru if that means giving up 260 passing yards a game.

[Biggus Piggus]

Roads ain't had a pass defense worth a crud at Iowa State. Now I'm supposed to think he's some kinda savior. I ain't seeing it. He must be some DB guru if that means giving up 260 passing yards a game.

Good lord.

He was the head football coach of Iowa State. Not the DB coach. Iowa State.

Rhoads was DB coach at Iowa State from 1996-99, defensive coordinator at Pitt from 2000-07, defensive coordinator at Auburn in 2008, and head coach of Iowa State from 2009-15.

Rhoads had some great defenses at Pitt. He was at Auburn in Tuberville's last season, and the D was not the problem. Then he got a head coaching job.

We're pretty lucky to have a proven, major-college DC as our secondary coach.

[Muskliketusk]

I ain't gonna give the guy a pass for never having a good defense as a head coach. And I sure ain't hanging my hat on whatever he did 10 year ago neither. 10 years ago working for an NFL defensive coach like Wannstedt that is.

[TheWestLinnGangsta]

I am more concerned with Bret's weight.  Buy that man a salad.

[The Kig]

You thought the 2014 defense was a terrible secondary? How high of expectations do you have? Because we return almost everyone from that unit.

Sorry, could have sworn we were talking about last year's DB's and improvement expectations for this year.  As with 2014 though... pressure from Spaight, Flowers, Ellis, Collins and Philon made the rest of that defense better.  We didn't see that last year and it obviously hurt.  I even specified in my original post that bringing in Paul Rhoads and getting pressure from the DL/LB's were reasons for optimism, but don't agree that simply adding a year to an OBVIOUS weak area of the defense will by default ensure they are going to be better.   Somehow I have spent the rest of the thread defending that reality. 

Per ATLHogfan1's post above...

As BP says, it was a trust issue between our coaches and what they thought our players were capable of doing in the secondary.

So... to answer your question about my expectations for this year, I hope that Paul Rhoads can do for the DB's what Dan Enos did for BA...but have it click before half the season is over.  I've gone on record saying I think this team can win 11, but will probably win 9, which is a hell of a lot higher than many of the people calling me out. 

But I will bite- almost everyone from the 2014 DB's?  Really?  Maybe in total # of bodies, but not production.

Top DB Stats for 2014:
Alan Turner- 4th on the team in tackles.  Pretty sure he isn't here.
Rohan Gaines- 5th in tackles.  Gone
Jared Collin's- 6th in tackles (53).  There's one.
DJ Dean- 12th in tackles (23). 
Henre Toliver- 14th in tackles (18)
Josh Liddell- 20th in tackles (12).
Kevin Richardson- 26th in tackles (8 )

[Ebdragon]

Our secondary will be great if we get consistent pressure up front. They weren't bad last year it's really hard to cover when the ab has all day to throw

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Our secondary will be great if we get consistent pressure up front. They weren't bad last year it's really hard to cover when the ab has all day to throw

That is an incredible ab.

Crunches much?

[Youngsta71701]

Seemed to be a big concern after last year and in recruiting season.  The biggest catch we had with recruiting  after striking out with a few others,went down with the injury to britto.  How concerned should we be that we are down to a few guys from last year that couldn't stop the pass?

The players wasn't the problem with pass coverage last year the scheme was. The coaches have already said they will take care of that. Robb Smith and Paul Rhodes.

[ricepig]

I am more concerned with Bret's weight.  Buy that man a salad.

Salad goes well with chicken fingers.......

[colbs]

Sorry, could have sworn we were talking about last year's DB's and improvement expectations for this year.  As with 2014 though... pressure from Spaight, Flowers, Ellis, Collins and Philon made the rest of that defense better.  We didn't see that last year and it obviously hurt.  I even specified in my original post that bringing in Paul Rhoads and getting pressure from the DL/LB's were reasons for optimism, but don't agree that simply adding a year to an OBVIOUS weak area of the defense will by default ensure they are going to be better.   Somehow I have spent the rest of the thread defending that reality. 

Per ATLHogfan1's post above...

As BP says, it was a trust issue between our coaches and what they thought our players were capable of doing in the secondary.

So... to answer your question about my expectations for this year, I hope that Paul Rhoads can do for the DB's what Dan Enos did for BA...but have it click before half the season is over.  I've gone on record saying I think this team can win 11, but will probably win 9, which is a hell of a lot higher than many of the people calling me out. 

But I will bite- almost everyone from the 2014 DB's?  Really?  Maybe in total # of bodies, but not production.

Top DB Stats for 2014:
Alan Turner- 4th on the team in tackles.  Pretty sure he isn't here.
Rohan Gaines- 5th in tackles.  Gone
Jared Collin's- 6th in tackles (53).  There's one.
DJ Dean- 12th in tackles (23). 
Henre Toliver- 14th in tackles (18)
Josh Liddell- 20th in tackles (12).
Kevin Richardson- 26th in tackles (8 )

Well tackles aren't the best indicator of production by a DB.  Also, if a player isn't improving each year then there is a problem.  Why do think everyone is so high on Tennessee?  Because the return almost everyone and they expect those players to improve.