Genuine question about the Kentucky/Calipari "system"

[Bogghawg]

I've heard so many call him a cheater, etc etc, but the problem is, he's not cheating.  I heard him on the radio the other night say that his only goal is to get all his players drafted.  And if you don't want to be one and done, don't come to Kentucky.  So he gets to pick and choose and then the rest recruit who's left.  It's legal,  it's brilliant, but it is an abomination of what college basketball ought to be about.  I can't help but wonder about the life long UK fans.  I mean, I know everyone loves to win, but if it were me, even though I would love to win, I think it also would feel kind of hollow.  These guys couldn't care less about Wildcat tradition and the university.  I'm naïve enough to think that should matter.   And not because of the outcome of today's game, but just in general, I truly don't believe it's right and I don't believe it's good for college basketball.
The Hogs are a college basketball team that rose from being pretty bad with a new coach rebuilding the program.  They've accomplished an amazing amount of success in the past few years as Anderson is building a program with the players he convinced to join us.  It's how it is supposed to work and it is something to be proud of.  But today all we see is a pro team playing a college team and it sucks.
I guess we should be honored that we got their full attention because of our recent record against them and our status as the 2nd place team.  When LSU, aTm, and Ole Miss took them to the wire, I guarantee you they mailed it in.  But not today.
Does anyone else think the NCAA is going to have to make some changes or have some serios, serios problems in the hear future?

[Hambone Hog]

tl;dr

[Kevin]

Leopard does not change their spots. He cheated at both umass & Memphis   
He is at a program who has cheated for years at the ncaa willdo nothing to

He wants all his players to take their classes online. Because they disrupt the class. No he wants them taking computer classes so they don't have to take classes.

He is a cheater

[3kgthog]

It's much easier to just play basketball when his team doesn't have to go to class the 2nd semester. They only have to stay eligible for one since they are leaving after year one. This loophole is the only thing I have ever agreed with Bobby Knight on.

[sage_dragoon]

tl;dr

but wanted to be a jackass and post that. Good thoughts OP

[Bogghawg]

tl;dr

Sorry, no comprende...

[Bogghawg]

Sorry, no comprende...

Too long, didn't read.  My you are clever.  It was too long for you to read or it had too many big words in it?  And yet you had time to type something smarmy in response?  You know, books can open up a whole new world for people.

[Hogfaniam]

And yet, if we hit open jump shots, we take them to the wire at their house.  Everything else is nominal today, except we didn't hit open shots.  All Americans or not.

[Hambone Hog]

lol. Calm down guys. It was a joke. I just still believe Coach Cal cheats.

Edit: Apologies to OP

[HamIAm]

I don't know.  The NCAA may have cleared him but Memphis and UMass both ended up in hot water just after he left.  The man knows when to leave town.
John Chaney wasn't a big fan of his either.

[Kevin]

John Chaney knew what he was doing

[hawkhawg]

He has had two final fours at two different schools vacated.

[jfred59]

Would the Op explain if he is ask about the not attending class System or the pay system that he uses?

[Gonzo]

I've heard so many call him a cheater, etc etc, but the problem is, he's not cheating.  I heard him on the radio the other night say that his only goal is to get all his players drafted.  And if you don't want to be one and done, don't come to Kentucky.  So he gets to pick and choose and then the rest recruit who's left.  It's legal,  it's brilliant, but it is an abomination of what college basketball ought to be about.  I can't help but wonder about the life long UK fans.  I mean, I know everyone loves to win, but if it were me, even though I would love to win, I think it also would feel kind of hollow.  These guys couldn't care less about Wildcat tradition and the university.  I'm naïve enough to think that should matter.   And not because of the outcome of today's game, but just in general, I truly don't believe it's right and I don't believe it's good for college basketball.
The Hogs are a college basketball team that rose from being pretty bad with a new coach rebuilding the program.  They've accomplished an amazing amount of success in the past few years as Anderson is building a program with the players he convinced to join us.  It's how it is supposed to work and it is something to be proud of.  But today all we see is a pro team playing a college team and it sucks.
I guess we should be honored that we got their full attention because of our recent record against them and our status as the 3nd place team.  When LSU, aTm, and Ole Miss took them to the wire, I guarantee you they mailed it in.  But not today.
Does anyone else think the NCAA is going to have to make some changes or have some serios, serios problems in the hear future?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Doesn't cheat? Not cheating is why the last two programs he led had sanctions imposed after he left?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Of course he cheats, that's a well known item. Today went about as I expected because I figured uk would be pointing to this game after last season. The Hogs were simply whipped by a better team, a team put together by a cheater of the first degree. Until the NCAA grows a pair and shuts him down, don't expect him to stop. Not that different from Bama/Auburn football.


This Hog team is still pretty good, just a couple of serious scoring guards away from being a true power again imo.



Go Hogs!

[MountieDawg]

It's much easier to just play basketball when his team doesn't have to go to class the 2nd semester. They only have to stay eligible for one since they are leaving after year one. This loophole is the only thing I have ever agreed with Bobby Knight on.

You have 2 finish the 2nd semester or it kills APR.

[Bogghawg]

Not worded correctly.  Yes, he has an extensive history of cheating.  But has he not stumbled onto something legal and still grossly unfair when he lures in all the most talented, only want to play in the NBA guys who can no longer go straight from high school by letting them know that he is cool with that, that he glorifies that, and that $$ is all he cares about, either.  It's all out in the open.  It is legal.  But it is unethical and flies in the face of everything that makes college basketball special.

[BorderPatrol]

tl;dr

Jackass.

bp

[BroyledNutts]

Not worded correctly.  Yes, he has an extensive history of cheating.  But has he not stumbled onto something legal and still grossly unfair when he lures in all the most talented, only want to play in the NBA guys who can no longer go straight from high school by letting them know that he is cool with that, that he glorifies that, and that $$ is all he cares about, either.  It's all out in the open.  It is legal.  But it is unethical and flies in the face of everything that makes college basketball special.

With Cal's example that his system works, I wonder why more programs haven't gone this way...not that's it's necessarily the right thing to do, but it obviously works for the elite programs.

[Pigonometry]

I wish college basketball was like college baseball.  If you want to go pro right out of high school, fine.  But if you sign with a college you have to stay three years. 

This would make the game a LOT better.

[Boarcephus]

I've heard so many call him a cheater, etc etc, but the problem is, he's not cheating.  I heard him on the radio the other night say that his only goal is to get all his players drafted.  And if you don't want to be one and done, don't come to Kentucky.  So he gets to pick and choose and then the rest recruit who's left.  It's legal,  it's brilliant, but it is an abomination of what college basketball ought to be about.  I can't help but wonder about the life long UK fans.  I mean, I know everyone loves to win, but if it were me, even though I would love to win, I think it also would feel kind of hollow.  These guys couldn't care less about Wildcat tradition and the university.  I'm naïve enough to think that should matter.   And not because of the outcome of today's game, but just in general, I truly don't believe it's right and I don't believe it's good for college basketball.
The Hogs are a college basketball team that rose from being pretty bad with a new coach rebuilding the program.  They've accomplished an amazing amount of success in the past few years as Anderson is building a program with the players he convinced to join us.  It's how it is supposed to work and it is something to be proud of.  But today all we see is a pro team playing a college team and it sucks.
I guess we should be honored that we got their full attention because of our recent record against them and our status as the 3nd place team.  When LSU, aTm, and Ole Miss took them to the wire, I guarantee you they mailed it in.  But not today.
Does anyone else think the NCAA is going to have to make some changes or have some serios, serios problems in the hear future?

Good post.  +1 

Calipari has always recruited well.  He did at UMass and Memphis and now here with the main difference being he doesn't really have to cheat at UK.  He's had to have been in bed with the AAU coaches to get the talent he got and Nolan hated dealing with those people and said so. 

Today we just got beat by a better team and unfortunately we had their full attention.  I was proud of our team today.  We competed hard and never quit and that's a characteristic of a Nolan/Mike  coached team. 

[Gonzo]

I wish college basketball was like college baseball.  If you want to go pro right out of high school, fine.  But if you sign with a college you have to stay three years. 

This would make the game a LOT better.

Better ask the NBA about that. The NFL and MLB are the bodies that made those rules. The NCAA can't keep a player from leaving college if they have the opportunity.


Go Hogs!

[94 Hawg]

John Chaney knew what he was doing

applause!

[HamIAm]

With Cal's example that his system works, I wonder why more programs haven't gone this way...not that's it's necessarily the right thing to do, but it obviously works for the elite programs.

To get the momentum started Cal had a pipeline with some big AAU recruiter, can't remember his name. I'll try to dig it up.  But now that he has his reputation established, all the one and done players know where to go.

[HamIAm]

William Wesley was the guys name.  Here's one article mentioning him and Cal.  But you can find a lot more if you just google his name.

The article doesn't get to Cal until you get to the last 3 or 4 paragraphs.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/story/2012-07-31/ncaa-takes-aim-at-influence-of-agents/56636864/1

No coach in the modern era has had more success recruiting elite prospects than John Calipari, who has also fought the perception that his longstanding relationship with influential power broker William Wesley helped him land top-rated recruiting classes at Memphis and Kentucky. Wesley often sits in the stands behind Kentucky's bench and at times was given access to the Memphis locker room when Calipari coached the Tigers.

When asked if the presence of third-party recruiting influences has become more common, Calipari said: "If I were where I used to coach, it probably would be more of an issue for me, you know what I'm saying? There's always been more than just the high school coach or the kid you're talking to in recruiting to figure out who is who. I'm at Kentucky now. When I was at Memphis and Massachusetts, it was a lot harder than it is now. Fifteen NBA draft picks the last three years, it's gotten easier."

I like what Tom Penders had to say in the article.

Others move in the shadows of the sport. In six seasons as head coach at Houston, Penders estimated, an AAU coach or his agent asked Penders for money in return for the commitment of a prospect at least 25 times. On one occasion, an AAU coach and his agent visited Penders' office with two offers: Pay tens of thousands of dollars in return for a player's commitment, or place an AAU coach on his staff to establish a pipeline.

"I threw him out of my office," Penders said.

Penders said the player, whom the coach declined to identify, spent one season at a Big 12 school before being drafted in the second round of the NBA draft. Penders said the AAU coach collected "six figures" from the Big 12 school that chose to engage in the scheme.

[root_hawg]

Coach Cal has always been cleared by the NCAA, plus his players know coming in that they are going to be on TV, have a chance at the championship and are going to be seen by NBA scouts (he has a pro day).  If I am a top notch player, I am headed to KY if they offer a scholie.

[Hoggish1]

In reading your OP it is hard to figure out if you love Cal or hate him.  Love the system or hate it because you were pretty much all over the map with your pros and cons.

I hope you'll dwell on it a little more and come back with a clearer idea of how you feel about the one and done...
_____
I'm real clear about it.  It's not a good system and needs to be stopped.  I have some good friends who are life long Cat fans and they are getting no satisfaction over the system that Cal/KY has going.  They would like to see it abolished, if they had any control over it.

[Boarcephus]

Coach Cal has always been cleared by the NCAA, plus his players know coming in that they are going to be on TV, have a chance at the championship and are going to be seen by NBA scouts (he has a pro day).  If I am a top notch player, I am headed to KY if they offer a scholie.

Archie Goodwin stated the same when he said his going to UK was a "business decision".  UK bb is not all that different from Saban and bama football.  I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think either Saban or Calipari cheat simply because they don't have to.

[12247]

You have to coach at a school that attracts the better players first of all.  Do you think Cal could get 9 McDonalds All Americans to come to Tulsa University if he was the coach there?  Or  Arkansas State or some place like that.  Likely not.  He likely cheats, most HCs and schools do if they believe they can get away with it and most can to some degree.

[KentuckyFan]

You guys can say what you want.  However, to say these guys "don't care about Kentucky at all" is a farce.  Sure, does UK happen to be the situation all of this takes place?  Yes.  However, a great majority of the "stars" who were OAD, or even 2AD, are still actively involved with UK, their current players and the fans.  Just as much so as any former Arkansas players.

The likes of John Wall, Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, MKG and many others are Tweeting or talking about UK almost on a daily basis.  They all still have great relationships with Calipari and there have been numerous photos and appearances by former UK players today sporting the UK gear or picts for fans.  Heck, Calipari probably attends a dozen games during the year when like he's got former players facing off.

Basically, hate to say it, but it's a recruiting machine that came in before the sport was ready.  It's only beginning and will continue as long as Calipari is at UK.  The scary part is when guys come back for another year, and the next crop of 5-stars is already committed.  You start having teams that still produce 3 or 4 first rounders, but end up with 6, 7 or 8 HS All-Americans left back.

[Hoggish1]

You guys can say what you want.  However, to say these guys "don't care about Kentucky at all" is a farce.  Sure, does UK happen to be the situation all of this takes place?  Yes.  However, a great majority of the "stars" who were OAD, or even 2AD, are still actively involved with UK, their current players and the fans.  Just as much so as any former Arkansas players.

The likes of John Wall, Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, MKG and many others are Tweeting or talking about UK almost on a daily basis.  They all still have great relationships with Calipari and there have been numerous photos and appearances by former UK players today sporting the UK gear or picts for fans.  Heck, Calipari probably attends a dozen games during the year when like he's got former players facing off.

Basically, hate to say it, but it's a recruiting machine that came in before the sport was ready.  It's only beginning and will continue as long as Calipari is at UK.  The scary part is when guys come back for another year, and the next crop of 5-stars is already committed.  You start having teams that still produce 3 or 4 first rounders, but end up with 6, 7 or 8 HS All-Americans left back.

Fine, but do you like the 1 & done? 

The way it's working for Cal @ KY for these players is they are playing in their first "professional gig" farm system.  Why wouldn't they like that and talk about it and maybe even come back to hob nob with Cal and their brethren?

[Boarcephus]

You have to coach at a school that attracts the better players first of all.  Do you think Cal could get 9 McDonalds All Americans to come to Tulsa University if he was the coach there?  Or  Arkansas State or some place like that.  Likely not.  He likely cheats, most HCs and schools do if they believe they can get away with it and most can to some degree.

What you're overlooking is he recruited great talent to UMass and Memphis.  Not 9 MAA's but great talent none the less and for that matter, who else has 9 MAA's on their roster?  I'm  too lazy to research it but UNC or Duke may be the only ones with a chance.

[jfred59]

You guys can say what you want.  However, to say these guys "don't care about Kentucky at all" is a farce.  Sure, does UK happen to be the situation all of this takes place?  Yes.  However, a great majority of the "stars" who were OAD, or even 2AD, are still actively involved with UK, their current players and the fans.  Just as much so as any former Arkansas players.

The likes of John Wall, Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, MKG and many others are Tweeting or talking about UK almost on a daily basis.  They all still have great relationships with Calipari and there have been numerous photos and appearances by former UK players today sporting the UK gear or picts for fans.  Heck, Calipari probably attends a dozen games during the year when like he's got former players facing off.

Basically, hate to say it, but it's a recruiting machine that came in before the sport was ready.  It's only beginning and will continue as long as Calipari is at UK.  The scary part is when guys come back for another year, and the next crop of 5-stars is already committed.  You start having teams that still produce 3 or 4 first rounders, but end up with 6, 7 or 8 HS All-Americans left back.

Most of these guys are probably still on the KY payroll.  We all know that Cal cheats but he isnt the bag man just the director. 

[Danny J]

What you're overlooking is he recruited great talent to UMass and Memphis.  Not 9 MAA's but great talent none the less and for that matter, who else has 9 MAA's on their roster?  I'm  too lazy to research it but UNC or Duke may be the only ones with a chance.

Nobody I am aware of has ever had even close to that many McDAA's on one team.

Also....to the person asking about Cal's recruiting buddy his name is "worldwide wes"....scumbag.

[root_hawg]

Duke had 4 McD in last year's game and currently leads the way this year with 2 McD commitments.

No one knows that he cheats.

[KentuckyFan]

Do I like the one-and-done?  It is what it is.  Would I prefer a 2-and-done?  Kind of.  However, I'd rather have OAD than see the best prospects skip college all together.  Even if guys like Wiggins, Parker, Okafor, Durant, Oden, etc...don't go to UK, I'd rather see them play than not.

With that said, quietly, it's NOT all OAD now.  Calipari has had a TON of 5-star players play at least 2 years, some 3.

2011 - Lamb, Jones
2012 - Wiltjer
2013 - Poythress, Cauley-Stein (4-star)
2014 - Johnson, An. Harrison, Aa. Harrison, Lee, Poythress (again), Cauley-Stein (again)

I wouldn't be shocked if this team brings back a few as well.  Specifically, Ulis, Lyles, Lee and possibly the Twins.  Poythress almost a guarantee coming off an ACL injury.

In fact, we've been less one and done over the last few years, percentage-wise, than Duke or Kansas.  We've just gotten more top recruits, but have had more stay.

[KentuckyFan]

Coming into the year, both Duke and Kentucky had 9 McDonald's All-Americans.  Both now have 8 that Poythress is out for the year and Suliamon was kicked out of Duke.  The difference is Cauley-Stein doesn't count, and that's a nice non-AA to have at your disposal.

[Gonzo]

Duke had 4 McD in last year's game and currently leads the way this year with 2 McD commitments.

No one knows that he cheats.

Apparently everyone but you knows he cheats. The last two programs he led being hit with sanctions right after his departure didn't just materialize out of thin air.



Go Hogs!

[Killean]

The Calipari way is to pay players, provide them with people to take their tests, enroll them in classes where they are handed grades, facilitate contact with agents and then pretend to be offended when someone suggests you're dirty.

[Boarcephus]

Apparently everyone but you knows he cheats. The last two programs he led being hit with sanctions right after his departure didn't just materialize out of thin air

UMass and Memphis don't have quite the pulling power UK does.  I don't see it all that different from bama in football.  Still maintain, Saban and Calipari don't have to but Calipari did cheat at his previous two stops.

[root_hawg]

Can you provide an article where the NCAA says he cheated, cause I can provide one where it says he was cleared? 

[Bogghawg]

In reading your OP it is hard to figure out if you love Cal or hate him.  Love the system or hate it because you were pretty much all over the map with your pros and cons.

I hope you'll dwell on it a little more and come back with a clearer idea of how you feel about the one and done...
_____
I'm real clear about it.  It's not a good system and needs to be stopped.  I have some good friends who are life long Cat fans and they are getting no satisfaction over the system that Cal/KY has going.  They would like to see it abolished, if they had any control over it.

Well. I called it an abomination, said it sucked, it wasn't right and needed to be addressed by the PTB before it destroyed college basketball. I was pretty clear about how I felt.  All that could have been construed as positive was that he was pretty smart to find a way that wasn't strictly illegal to do what he is doing.

[Boarcephus]

Can you provide an article where the NCAA says he cheated, cause I can provide one where it says he was cleared? 

If this is directed at me let me rephrase my post.  I'm not saying for a fact he cheated at UMass and Memphis but I suspect he did based on what happened after he left.  I don't think he's cheating at UK because, as I said, he doesn't have to.  All I know is he must put on one helluva show in the living room of these kids homes.

[Gonzo]

Can you provide an article where the NCAA says he cheated, cause I can provide one where it says he was cleared? 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/239659-john-caliparis-final-four-erasedagain

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/kentucky-coach-john-calipari-whistled-2nd-foul-umass-memphis-article-1.399731

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-08-20-memphis-ncaa-penalties_N.htm


If one chooses to believe he was completely unaware and uninvolved at either program then one is welcome to remain completely wrapped within their naivete.



Go Hogs!

[Mike Irwin]

Can you provide an article where the NCAA says he cheated, cause I can provide one where it says he was cleared?

The schools he left were punished. He never was. I agree with Bobby Knight who says the whole thing that's going on at Kentucky is an abomination for college athletics.

There's nothing about going there that says "student athlete" except that they have to remain eligible while they are there. Basically Kentucky serves the same purpose for its basketball players as a high school prep school. It exists to get them to the next level of basketball.


Calipari's history suggests that he will take another job when he gets wind that the NCAA is closing in on his program.

[KentuckyFan]

The schools he left were punished. He never was. I agree with Bobby Knight who says the whole thing that's going on at Kentucky is an abomination for college athletics.

There's nothing about going there that says "student athlete" except that they have to remain eligible while they are there. Basically Kentucky serves the same purpose for its basketball players as a high school prep school. It exists to get them to the next level of basketball.


Calipari's history suggests that he will take another job when he gets wind that the NCAA is closing in on his program.

The thing is, UK gets singled out.  What Knight (and others say) basically sums up what major college athletics (football and basketball) has become.  There are hundreds of things that aren't "pure for college athletics" but the sports still go on with bigger and bigger $$$ every year.  I mean look at the new NCAA Tournament or college football playoff broadcasting contracts?  That amount of money screams everything BUT pure amateur athletics.

[Gonzo]

I see a night and day difference.  Players who attend Alabama for football are much more likely to stay there at least three years before opting for the NFL draft.  That amount of time at least opens the possibility of graduating. 

They don't have a choice. The NFL mandates that.



Go Hogs!

[Boarcephus]

I see a night and day difference.  Players who attend Alabama for football are much more likely to stay there at least three years before opting for the NFL draft.  That amount of time at least opens the possibility of graduating. 

They're not going to bama for a degree.

[mikey2toes]

Its hardly any more One and Done than any of the other top teams like Duke, NC, and Kansas. We just win more than them. And because of that, all of a sudden its a problem.

Why does nobody ever give Cal props for getting them all on the same page every year. Getting new young men in and having them buy into a system where they ARENT the number one option, as they've been their entire lives. Buy into a system where someone like Devin Booker isn't even STARTING, yet somehow still leads the team in scoring. How is that not impressive? Do you not know how hard it is for all the coaches? Hell, all the trainers? All the equipment managers? To get these kids acclimated to the college life and managing that and classes. Oh yeah, by the way, they do go to classes. If they didn't pass those 2nd semester classes, YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. Like...come on.

This OAD team has what? 2 freshmen starting? Its not even outrageous anymore. This isn't the John Wall team that really didn't do anything. Why is there so much hate for the "system"? Its only because the team is still winning. We have older players on the roster as well, and look at that, everything meshes perfectly. Cal isn't doing anything that anyone else isn't doing. Don't get mad at him. Get mad at Coach K and Self for not doing jack with the top recruits they got.

Oh yeah, blame Cal because Marcus Camby enjoyed some prostitutes and money from sports agents.

Blame Cal because Derrick Rose cheated on his SAT.

LOL. Like...come on. Talk about the game. Stop sounding like Louisville fans.

[Newhopehog]

The NCAA need to require that x number of hours in a semester be classroom  not on-line and it should be more than 50% of semester hrs.

[Hogfaniam]

Its hardly any more One and Done than any of the other top teams like Duke, NC, and Kansas. We just win more than them. And because of that, all of a sudden its a problem.

Why does nobody ever give Cal props for getting them all on the same page every year. Getting new young men in and having them buy into a system where they ARENT the number one option, as they've been their entire lives. Buy into a system where someone like Devin Booker isn't even STARTING, yet somehow still leads the team in scoring. How is that not impressive? Do you not know how hard it is for all the coaches? Hell, all the trainers? All the equipment managers? To get these kids acclimated to the college life and managing that and classes. Oh yeah, by the way, they do go to classes. If they didn't pass those 2nd semester classes, YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. Like...come on.

This OAD team has what? 2 freshmen starting? Its not even outrageous anymore. This isn't the John Wall team that really didn't do anything. Why is there so much hate for the "system"? Its only because the team is still winning. We have older players on the roster as well, and look at that, everything meshes perfectly. Cal isn't doing anything that anyone else isn't doing. Don't get mad at him. Get mad at Coach K and Self for not doing jack with the top recruits they got.

Oh yeah, blame Cal because Marcus Camby enjoyed some prostitutes and money from sports agents.

Blame Cal because Derrick Rose cheated on his SAT.

LOL. Like...come on. Talk about the game. Stop sounding like Louisville fans.

To be fair, the  "cheating refs " are a higher strata  with some, than Cal.