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Best Hog Ballers all-time by position five deep (opinion)

Started by ChiTown27, February 27, 2015, 02:10:30 am

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ChiTown27

Here is my list of top Hog basketball players of all-time by position, five deep:

Point Guard:
1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Lee Mayberry
3. Ron Brewer
4. Jannero Pargo
5. Corey Beck

Shooting Guard:
1. Alvin Robertson
2. Todd Day
3. Darrel Walker
4. Pat Bradley
5. Marvin Delph

Small Forward:
1. Joe Johnson
2. Ronnie Brewer
3. Sonny Weems
4. Derek Hood
5. Isaiah Morris

Power Forward:
1. Corliss Williamson
2. Dean Tolson
3. Scott Hastings
4. Bobby Portis (can climb this list)
5. Gordon Carpenter

Center:
1. Joe Kleine
2. Oliver Miller
3. Andrew Lang
4. George Kok
5. Stephen Hill

Feel free to cuss me if I have some of these out of the order you would prefer. Two honorable mentions: Patrick Beverly and Ike Poole. Thoughts?
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul."

George Bernard Shaw

BrooklynRoss

Thurmond is missing from the small forwards. He might even be number 2. Good list though.
I support the Razorbacks in the city that never sleeps.

 

usf15cc

Quote from: BrooklynRoss on February 27, 2015, 02:14:25 am
Thurmond is missing from the small forwards. He might even be number 2. Good list though.
Yeah he is way better than Weems.

jgphillips3


jimmur74

Quote from: ChiTown27 on February 27, 2015, 02:10:30 am
Here is my list of top Hog basketball players of all-time by position, five deep:

Point Guard:
1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Lee Mayberry
3. Ron Brewer
4. Jannero Pargo
5. Corey Beck

Shooting Guard:
1. Alvin Robertson
2. Todd Day
3. Darrel Walker
4. Pat Bradley
5. Marvin Delph

Small Forward:
1. Joe Johnson
2. Ronnie Brewer
3. Sonny Weems
4. Derek Hood
5. Isaiah Morris

Power Forward:
1. Corliss Williamson
2. Dean Tolson
3. Scott Hastings
4. Bobby Portis (can climb this list)
5. Gordon Carpenter

Center:
1. Joe Kleine
2. Oliver Miller
3. Andrew Lang
4. George Kok
5. Stephen Hill


Feel free to cuss me if I have some of these out of the order you would prefer. Two honorable mentions: Patrick Beverly and Ike Poole. Thoughts?

Mmmmm Scotty Thurman is # 1 in my book. Morris? Nah he was a good role player but not great. Todd Day wasnt a guard either. He is a small forward. Id have to put darnell robinson on the center discussion before stephen hill. Also in the small forward Dwight Stewart should be considered.

b_stackhouse

I have to imagine the OP just forgot about Scotty Thurman. Even if he did absolutely nothing else in his career he would make the top 5 just for his shot against Duke. But he did plenty of other things to be worthy of nothing below a 2 on the Small Forwards.

Jackrabbit Hog

Sidney Moncrief was never a point guard.  He operated down low and could even have been considered a small forward.  Brewer handled the point responsibilities on those teams. 

And if Steven Hill was one of our top 5 centers of all time, well, I just don't know what to say.  Steve Schall, anyone??
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razobak

Add Scotty Thurman in at small forward, Kareem Reid in at PG, and I would move Derek Hood to PF. Eliminate Jannero Pargo. And Steven Hill? I would put Darnell Robinson ahead of him.
Go Hogs, Beat Refs!

b_stackhouse

Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on February 27, 2015, 09:16:18 am
Sidney Moncrief was never a point guard.  He operated down low and could even have been considered a small forward.  Brewer handled the point responsibilities on those teams. 

And if Steven Hill was one of our top 5 centers of all time, well, I just don't know what to say.  Steve Schall, anyone??

Steven Hill never developed into an offensive threat, but what he did defensively over his 4 years, in my opinion, is enough to put him in the Top 5. He was the definition of a rim protector, and won SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

I must admit that my recollection of Razorback basketball only extends to the Day/Mayberry/Miller days so there could be some guys prior to that time that I don't know a lot about.

40MINSOFHELL


Jackrabbit Hog

Quote from: b_stackhouse on February 27, 2015, 09:21:11 am
Steven Hill never developed into an offensive threat, but what he did defensively over his 4 years, in my opinion, is enough to put him in the Top 5. He was the definition of a rim protector, and won SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

I must admit that my recollection of Razorback basketball only extends to the Day/Mayberry/Miller days so there could be some guys prior to that time that I don't know a lot about.

That's fine; my recollection goes back to the late '60s and early '70s.  So I can't add much on George Kok or Glen Rose or any of those guys that were obviously great for their eras. 

Regarding the Triplets, I think if you had to classify them (and they really defied classification because of their versatility), you'd have to say Brewer was the PG, Delph was the SG and Moncrief was the SF.  I have no doubt that if Delph had played with the 3-point line and in a faster paced system, he would hold school, conference and possibly even national records for 3 pointers made.
Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on June 29, 2018, 03:47:07 pm
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thirrdegreetusker

Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on February 27, 2015, 09:16:18 am
Sidney Moncrief was never a point guard.  He operated down low and could even have been considered a small forward.  Brewer handled the point responsibilities on those teams. 

And if Steven Hill was one of our top 5 centers of all time, well, I just don't know what to say.  Steve Schall, anyone??

Steve Schall
Steve Stroud
Mario Credit
Daryll Saulsberry
Nick Davis

....all belong on there ahead of Hill

code red

I'd have Hastings in there somewhere.  OOPS NEVER MIND/ :D
"If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today."  Dr. Lou

 

RedBird5

Good list.  I would move Day ahead of Alvin and Beck over Brewer and Pargo, and it's not really close in my opinion.   I enjoy reading others personal lists.  No wrong answer and fun to debate a bit. 

Youngsta71701

Derrick Hood was a power forward. Darnell Robinson should be on the center list and Dwight Stewart should be on the power forward or center list. He played both.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

Youngsta71701

Quote from: RedBird5 on February 27, 2015, 10:42:30 am
Good list.  I would move Day ahead of Alvin and Beck over Brewer and Pargo, and it's not really close in my opinion.   I enjoy reading others personal lists.  No wrong answer and fun to debate a bit.

Day was a better scorer but Alvin Robertson was way more versatile.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

choppedporkextrasauce

Kareem Reid anyone. Holds school records for assists.

Sidney was a SG. Darrell Walker was the point guard to Robertson's shooting guard.

ErieHog

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on February 27, 2015, 10:45:37 am
Day was a better scorer but Alvin Robertson was way more versatile.

Not even remotely close to true.   

As a college player, Day is hands-down the greatest Razorback to ever play the game.   

He was in our Top 10 in career blocks until a few years ago, despite playing the 2 guard most of the time (he's still 11th all time)--    he's not second to anyone, in any list of Razorbacks.


No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

RedBird5

Quote from: Youngsta71701 on February 27, 2015, 10:45:37 am
Day was a better scorer but Alvin Robertson was way more versatile.

Yep, vividly remember both.   Didn't realize it was a versility list and I was so wrong.  My bad....

RedBird5

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 am
Not even remotely close to true.   

As a college player, Day is hands-down the greatest Razorback to ever play the game.   

He was in our Top 10 in career blocks until a few years ago, despite playing the 2 guard most of the time (he's still 11th all time)--    he's not second to anyone, in any list of Razorbacks.

Exactly!  Especially if it's a positional breakdown.  It's Day and everyone else.  Peroid

Jackrabbit Hog

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 am
Not even remotely close to true.   

As a college player, Day is hands-down the greatest Razorback to ever play the game.   

We've had this argument before.  Day makes a compelling case and belongs in any debate about "greatest ever", but it is by no means "hands-down."

Sidney Moncrief and Corliss Williamson both belong in that debate.  Sidney's numbers would have been off the charts had he played in Nolan's system (see my post above about the triplets), comparable if not better than Day's.  And of course Corliss led us to our one and only National Championship and was a two time SEC POY and first team All American in only 3 seasons. 

So it ain't "hands-down."
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HOGINTENNESSEE

February 27, 2015, 11:15:12 am #21 Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 01:53:59 pm by HOGINTENNESSEE
I don't like the labeling. It should be like Primary handler, Wing players, Post players.

Standard pg, sg, sf, pf and c is slot of semantics and doesn't really apply for a lot of the guys that have played here

seasonhog

Quote from: ChiTown27 on February 27, 2015, 02:10:30 am
Here is my list of top Hog basketball players of all-time by position, five deep:

Point Guard:
1. Sidney Moncrief
2. Lee Mayberry
3. Ron Brewer
4. Jannero Pargo
5. Corey Beck

Shooting Guard:
1. Alvin Robertson
2. Todd Day
3. Darrel Walker
4. Pat Bradley
5. Marvin Delph

Small Forward:
1. Joe Johnson
2. Ronnie Brewer
3. Sonny Weems
4. Derek Hood
5. Isaiah Morris

Power Forward:
1. Corliss Williamson
2. Dean Tolson
3. Scott Hastings
4. Bobby Portis (can climb this list)
5. Gordon Carpenter

Center:
1. Joe Kleine
2. Oliver Miller
3. Andrew Lang
4. George Kok
5. Stephen Hill

Feel free to cuss me if I have some of these out of the order you would prefer. Two honorable mentions: Patrick Beverly and Ike Poole. Thoughts?


Martin Terry,  Emporia Kansas, has to be on the list.........1972-73.....18...30+ games...4...40+ games.

Was able to see Terry play in High School in Emporia.

Also for consideration,  Tommy Boyer, 1963...Roynei Clarke  2009,,,51 points in one game Razorback record.


ErieHog

Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on February 27, 2015, 11:06:19 am
We've had this argument before.  Day makes a compelling case and belongs in any debate about "greatest ever", but it is by no means "hands-down."

Sidney Moncrief and Corliss Williamson both belong in that debate.  Sidney's numbers would have been off the charts had he played in Nolan's system (see my post above about the triplets), comparable if not better than Day's.  And of course Corliss led us to our one and only National Championship and was a two time SEC POY and first team All American in only 3 seasons. 

So it ain't "hands-down."

It really is hands-down.

There's no objective measurement by which Day doesn't just outpace those guys, but blow by them, even accounting for play styles.  That's one of the lovely things about things like PER, Usage, and pace measurements-- they account for era differentiation.

Every single non-Day argument is not performance based.  Its based on him not being as likeable a person.

No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

 

thirrdegreetusker

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 am
Not even remotely close to true.   

As a college player, Day is hands-down the greatest Razorback to ever play the game.   

He was in our Top 10 in career blocks until a few years ago, despite playing the 2 guard most of the time (he's still 11th all time)--    he's not second to anyone, in any list of Razorbacks.

Bowers, Mayberry, Shepherd, and Wilson were the guards in Days four years at UA. Day was a G/F or "swingman".

The "second to none" assertion is not supported by an unbiased review of college accolades or NBA longevity.

ErieHog

Quote from: thirrdegreetusker on February 27, 2015, 11:51:30 am
Bowers, Mayberry, Shepherd, and Wilson were the guards in Days four years at UA. Day was a G/F or "swingman".

The "second to none" assertion is not supported by an unbiased review of college accolades or NBA longevity.

It really is.   That's the problem-- people can't divorce their emotional investment in other players as shining pillars of the community, great all around guys, and people they personally enjoyed.

When it is reduced to just numbers-- just the actual basketball performance- it isn't even really a contest.

NBA longevity is a perfect example of the issue-- people inject the NBA performance, as though it is relevant to who was the greatest Razorback-- when it has zero relevance to what a player did as a Razorback.

The unforgiving scrutiny of actual basketball performance as a Razorback is one-sided.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Jackrabbit Hog

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 11:45:30 am
It really is hands-down.

There's no objective measurement by which Day doesn't just outpace those guys, but blow by them, even accounting for play styles.  That's one of the lovely things about things like PER, Usage, and pace measurements-- they account for era differentiation.

Every single non-Day argument is not performance based.  Its based on him not being as likeable a person.

There are certain things that exist outside of empirical data.  They are called "intangibles."  Just because they aren't on a stat sheet, that doesn't mean they don't exist.  And I'm not talking about likeability.  I've met Todd Day and I think he's likeable. 

Sidney Moncrief was, almost by acclimation, the greatest defensive player to ever play at Arkansas.  He was relentless and almost always was assigned to somebody several inches taller than he was.  He guarded Larry Freakin' Bird in the tourney their last years in college.  He almost single-handedly willed a bunch of freshmen and sophomores to the Regional final that year and was a last-second lucky shot away from leading them to the Final Four and a likely spot in the National Championship game.  He came to Arkansas with no outside shot whatsoever but through hard work developed one.  Whatever it took to win a game, whether it was a steal, lock-down defense, a last second shot, he did it consistently.

Corliss Williamson came to Arkansas with the thousand ton anchor of pressure that was the expectation to lead us to a national championship.  And he delivered.  He will forever be remembered by Razorback fans as the guy who delivered on all his promise and led us to the promised land, all while playing in what was then perhaps the top basketball conference in America and dominating it for two years. 

So how on earth can you say there's not even an argument to be made for them as the best?  I know, I know....analytics, metrics, stat stuff.  And yes, it is a subjective argument so I realize there is no right or wrong.  But to fail to recognize that intangibles don't play into the greatness of a player is arrogant and short-sighted. 
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ErieHog

Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on February 27, 2015, 12:00:47 pm
There are certain things that exist outside of empirical data.  They are called "intangibles."  Just because they aren't on a stat sheet, that doesn't mean they don't exist.  And I'm not talking about likeability.  I've met Todd Day and I think he's likeable. 

Sidney Moncrief was, almost by acclimation, the greatest defensive player to ever play at Arkansas.  He was relentless and almost always was assigned to somebody several inches taller than he was.  He guarded Larry Freakin' Bird in the tourney their last years in college.  He almost single-handedly willed a bunch of freshmen and sophomores to the Regional final that year and was a last-second lucky shot away from leading them to the Final Four and a likely spot in the National Championship game.  He came to Arkansas with no outside shot whatsoever but through hard work developed one.  Whatever it took to win a game, whether it was a steal, lock-down defense, a last second shot, he did it consistently.

Corliss Williamson came to Arkansas with the thousand ton anchor of pressure that was the expectation to lead us to a national championship.  And he delivered.  He will forever be remembered by Razorback fans as the guy who delivered on all his promise and led us to the promised land, all while playing in what was then perhaps the top basketball conference in America and dominating it for two years. 

So how on earth can you say there's not even an argument to be made for them as the best?  I know, I know....analytics, metrics, stat stuff.  And yes, it is a subjective argument so I realize there is no right or wrong.  But to fail to recognize that intangibles don't play into the greatness of a player is arrogant and short-sighted. 

If you can't quantify it,  it is emotive.  If it is emotive, it is inherently open to confirmation bias.

Actual basketball performance is the only objective metric.

I really dislike Todd Day.    Sidney is not just a great Razorback, but a fantastic person-- one of the nicest people you'll ever hope to meet, and someone you want your kids to be like--  but I can't let my personal perception of either, color their actual performance as Razorbacks.

ETA:  The biggest argument for anyone other than Day, is for Corliss, based on objective win rate differentials, the levels of competition faced, etc.  You have to put significant importance on the marginal differences that favor Corliss, though.

To paraphrase the late Lyndon Johnson  'Day may be a dirty #&!&%!#%, but he's our dirty #&!&%!#%'  .


No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on February 27, 2015, 09:16:18 am
Sidney Moncrief was never a point guard.  He operated down low and could even have been considered a small forward.  Brewer handled the point responsibilities on those teams. 

And if Steven Hill was one of our top 5 centers of all time, well, I just don't know what to say.  Steve Schall, anyone??


Someone actually saw some games back then!
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 am

As a college player, Day is hands-down the greatest Razorback to ever play the game.   


Disagree.............it's Sidney or maybe Corliss. There is always subjectivity in theses types of things no matter what.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 11:58:30 am

When it is reduced to just numbers-- just the actual basketball performance- it isn't even really a contest.


The problem is those numbers come off different teams against different opponents with different coaches and different teammates at different times and perhaps bias given to certain statistical categories.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

ErieHog

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on February 27, 2015, 12:18:50 pm
The problem is those numbers come off different teams against different opponents with different coaches and different teammates at different times and perhaps bias given to certain statistical categories.

All of which can be accounted for, pretty easily.   And the beauty of numbers is that they have no preconceptions built in-- they're just that-  numbers.

No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Jackrabbit Hog

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 12:07:20 pm
If you can't quantify it,  it is emotive.  If it is emotive, it is inherently open to confirmation bias.

Actual basketball performance is the only objective metric.

I really dislike Todd Day.    Sidney is not just a great Razorback, but a fantastic person-- one of the nicest people you'll ever hope to meet, and someone you want your kids to be like--  but I can't let my personal perception of either, color their actual performance as Razorbacks.

ETA:  The biggest argument for anyone other than Day, is for Corliss, based on objective win rate differentials, the levels of competition faced, etc.  You have to put significant importance on the marginal differences that favor Corliss, though.

To paraphrase the late Lyndon Johnson  'Day may be a dirty #&!&%!#%, but he's our dirty #&!&%!#%'  .

I never knew until today that Stephen Hawking was a member of Hogville.

As usual, we will agree to disagree.



But you're wrong. >:(
Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on June 29, 2018, 03:47:07 pm
I'm sure it's nothing that a $500 retainer can't fix.  Contact JackRabbit Hog for payment instructions.

Sanctified Swine

does Lenzie Howell belong on this list...if so where?.. I remember him being such a key player. Also, Ron Huery, Jonathan Modica, and Clint Mcdaniel?

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 12:20:47 pm
All of which can be accounted for, pretty easily.   And the beauty of numbers is that they have no preconceptions built in-- they're just that-  numbers.

Numbers derived from that many variables are only numbers and not a measure of greatness. Numbers don't lie but they don't always tell the whole story or truth.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

thirrdegreetusker

Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 11:45:30 am
Every single non-Day argument is not performance based.  Its based on him not being as likeable a person.

I always heard Day was a nice guy. Anyway......

I do not have a current press guide; this data is from the 2009/10 UA guide. Comparing Day to just one other player, with reference to the stats from all 32 UA 1000-point scores as of 2009:

Day
Points....................#1
FG attempts..........#1
FGs made..............#1
Reb.........................#7
FG%......................#16 T
FT%......................#15T

Moncrief
Points....................#2
FG attempts..........#6
FGs made..............#2
Reb.........................#1
FG%......................#2
FT%......................#8



So Day was good at taking a lot of shots. His career % of FG shooting success, however, was lower than his own teammates Mayberry, Miller, and Credit.

I had home season tickets for Day's entire career, and three of his four conference tournaments. I thought that both Mayberry and Miller were both better all-around players than Day. Just my opinion.


WMHawgfan

Just my opinion but Darian Townes belongs on one of the big man lists somewhere. Certainly more skilled than Hill.

Jackrabbit Hog

The center list, considering it spans about 40 years of the modern era, just drives home how poor we've been at that position most years (with a few exceptions, of course).  We've always had our best years with great swingmen and combo players - like Moncrief, Day, Thurman, etc.
Quote from: JIMMY BOARFFETT on June 29, 2018, 03:47:07 pm
I'm sure it's nothing that a $500 retainer can't fix.  Contact JackRabbit Hog for payment instructions.

choppedporkextrasauce


alaskahog

Not a bad list...one guard that probably fits in the 5 deep list is Darrell Walker (possibly my favorite Hog, and played in the first game I ever watched live at the Barn).  Another guard I enjoyed watching but may not crack the top 5 Keith Wilson. 

I know others have mentioned him and I agree Thurman (in my top 5 favorite Hogs, but really how do you differentiate since I love them all) should either be in the top 5 SG or more appropriately top 5 SF.  Also D Hood should be moved to PF if he is going to be on the list.     

ErieHog

Quote from: thirrdegreetusker on February 27, 2015, 02:07:41 pm
I always heard Day was a nice guy. Anyway......

I do not have a current press guide; this data is from the 2009/10 UA guide. Comparing Day to just one other player, with reference to the stats from all 32 UA 1000-point scores as of 2009:

Day
Points....................#1
FG attempts..........#1
FGs made..............#1
Reb.........................#7
FG%......................#16 T
FT%......................#15T

Moncrief
Points....................#2
FG attempts..........#6
FGs made..............#2
Reb.........................#1
FG%......................#2
FT%......................#8



So Day was good at taking a lot of shots. His career % of FG shooting success, however, was lower than his own teammates Mayberry, Miller, and Credit.

I had home season tickets for Day's entire career, and three of his four conference tournaments. I thought that both Mayberry and Miller were both better all-around players than Day. Just my opinion.



Dig into the PER and Usage stats,  turnovers, and extended stats to include defense, and you'll see where the separation shows-- and it does nicely to account for the differences of pace.

No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

alaskahog

Quote from: Sanctified Swine on February 27, 2015, 12:22:22 pm
does Lenzie Howell belong on this list...if so where?.. I remember him being such a key player. Also, Ron Huery, Jonathan Modica, and Clint Mcdaniel?

I agree Lenzie may deserve a look at the top five, but like you I am not sure where he fits.  6-4 but played down low a lot...tough and quick.  Also could guard multiple positions on the floor.  I think he was the MVP of the SWC tourny back in 88 or 89.  Only played for us for two years, but was a solid player. 

ChiTown27

Quote from: b_stackhouse on February 27, 2015, 09:05:58 am
I have to imagine the OP just forgot about Scotty Thurman. Even if he did absolutely nothing else in his career he would make the top 5 just for his shot against Duke. But he did plenty of other things to be worthy of nothing below a 2 on the Small Forwards.

I probably should have specified that I was looking at total body of work at their position, but over the span of their career. I love Scotty like all of you, but aside from being awesome on our team, did he have a pro career? I'm honestly asking. I put Pat Bradley on there because he set the SEC 3pt record. All of the others were first or second-rounders. As for Steven Hill, I feel like he edges out Darnell Robinson (DR)because he got SEC DPoY and he had similar success as DR following his collegiate career, except I think he signed onto a few NBA teams as well, where I don't believe DR did. . . but I could be wrong. So if you look at NBA longevity, draft pick spot, Razorback career and such, that's what my list was based on, not just as a Razorback.

PS - Screw Kentucky.  :razorback:
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul."

George Bernard Shaw

Guinness Snout


ErieHog

Quote from: ChiTown27 on February 27, 2015, 03:33:49 pm
I probably should have specified that I was looking at total body of work at their position, but over the span of their career. I love Scotty like all of you, but aside from being awesome on our team, did he have a pro career? I'm honestly asking. I put Pat Bradley on there because he set the SEC 3pt record. All of the others were first or second-rounders. As for Steven Hill, I feel like he edges out Darnell Robinson (DR)because he got SEC DPoY and he had similar success as DR following his collegiate career, except I think he signed onto a few NBA teams as well, where I don't believe DR did. . . but I could be wrong. So if you look at NBA longevity, draft pick spot, Razorback career and such, that's what my list was based on, not just as a Razorback.

PS - Screw Kentucky.  :razorback:

Robinson was drafted by the Mavericks, and eventually signed with the 76ers, but never played a regular season NBA minute.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Temprees

Quote from: seasonhog on February 27, 2015, 11:44:15 am

Martin Terry,  Emporia Kansas, has to be on the list.........1972-73.....18...30+ games...4...40+ games.

Was able to see Terry play in High School in Emporia.

Also for consideration,  Tommy Boyer, 1963...Roynei Clarke  2009,,,51 points in one game Razorback record.


Yes, I agree that Martin Terry should be on the list.  He would go in the shooting guard or 2 guard category.  Terry was 6'3" and lighting quick.  He had a great mid-range game.  He had the ability to get you in the air, then take the bump, get the shot off and make it, or go to the line and knock down free throws.  He was a great free throw shooter.  I think he still has the free throw record for free throws attempted and made in one game.  He had 20+ free throw attempts in a game.

Rotnei Clarke does not belong on any list of great Razorbacks.  He was not a team player, and his defense was horrible, and he abandoned us. Would we ever have a ceremony where we hung a banner in the arena for Rotnei?  I think NOT.


Foshodo

Quote from: 40MINSOFHELL on February 27, 2015, 09:21:18 am
Pargo better than Beck?

he's played in the NBA for like 83 years straight now...

yes, he was a better player than Beck...

this isnt about who had more importance to the hogs.

Beverley should be above Beck as well...

ChiTown27

Quote from: Guinness Snout on February 27, 2015, 03:34:58 pm
No Clint McDaniel?  One of my favorite players

Clint was awesome, but where was I going to put him?
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul."

George Bernard Shaw

Inhogswetrust

February 27, 2015, 03:59:13 pm #48 Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 04:14:50 pm by Inhogswetrust
Quote from: ErieHog on February 27, 2015, 03:23:42 pm
Dig into the PER and Usage stats,  turnovers, and extended stats to include defense, and you'll see where the separation shows-- and it does nicely to account for the differences of pace.

You may have forgotten this about PER:

PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates—blocks and steals (which was not tracked as an official stat until 1973)—can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen.

P.S.
For those that don't know Hollinger is the guy credited with developing PER and was an ESPN guy. He is now with the Memphis Grizzlies. In a nutshell PER is a composite measure of several categories on a per minute basis. Also the TOP career leader in PER in the pro's is Michael Jordan, second is Lebron but it is close. You may be shocked to discover that Shaq is third.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Inhogswetrust

By the way this years top college PER is Frank Kaminski @ Wisconsin last time I checked. He is not considered to be a potential lottery pick but is considered a late first rounder. Bobby Portis is currently ranked 7th in PER. He is also in a lot of mock drafts as thought to be selected higher than Kaminski.............
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi