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Redbird Rundown V

Started by dhornjr1, March 30, 2011, 01:26:42 am

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pigture perfect

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 11, 2011, 10:18:13 am
+1's to all.

Oh, and Franklinhausen makes me long for the consistency of Dave Veres.
Anyone here old enough to remember Bruce Sutter?
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

Smolder

Quote from: pigture perfect on April 11, 2011, 09:44:56 pm
Anyone here old enough to remember Bruce Sutter?

Yes, but not as a Cardinal. I remember Lee Smith though.


 

Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson

Heck, I'd rather have Steve Kline than Franklinhausen. At least he was fun to watch.
ched come back pls

dhornjr1

Quote from: pigture perfect on April 11, 2011, 09:44:56 pm
Anyone here old enough to remember Bruce Sutter?

Oh, yeah. I remember the days at the winter meetings in 1980 when Whitey actually had Sutter and Rollie Fingers at the same time. Then, within a few days, he traded Fingers to Milwaukee.

Hell, I can vaguely remember Al Hrabosky pitching for  the Cardinals. I was real little but I remember people laughing at his antics and his fu manchu mustache.

Smolder

With Holliday back, this team looks like the are playing some good baseball and that is without Pujols hitting. I can't wait to get him going. We could be dangerous. Additionally, I am starting to drink the kool-aid on McClellan. Pitching well right now. +1 to everyone for the win.

FS Hog

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 12, 2011, 09:19:35 am
Oh, yeah. I remember the days at the winter meetings in 1980 when Whitey actually had Sutter and Rollie Fingers at the same time. Then, within a few days, he traded Fingers to Milwaukee.

Hell, I can vaguely remember Al Hrabosky pitching for  the Cardinals. I was real little but I remember people laughing at his antics and his fu manchu mustache.
Hungo was fun to watch, though Franklin probably has better stats.

Smolder

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 12, 2011, 09:19:35 am
Oh, yeah. I remember the days at the winter meetings in 1980 when Whitey actually had Sutter and Rollie Fingers at the same time. Then, within a few days, he traded Fingers to Milwaukee.

Hell, I can vaguely remember Al Hrabosky pitching for  the Cardinals. I was real little but I remember people laughing at his antics and his fu manchu mustache.

I did not know that Rollie was on the Cardinals for a few days. Interesting. I need to read up on Cardinals history before 1986. 

dhornjr1

Quote from: Cutty on April 12, 2011, 09:47:54 am
I did not know that Rollie was on the Cardinals for a few days. Interesting. I need to read up on Cardinals history before 1986. 

Whitey went into those 1980 winter meetings as a man on a mission to revamp the roster. He had talented players but the roster was full of coke-heads and tokers.

On December 8th, 1980, he traded Terry Kennedy, John Littlefield, Al Olmsted, Mike Phillips, Kim Seaman, Steve Swisher and John Urrea to the San Diego Padres for Rollie Fingers and Bob Geren.

The very next day he sent Leon Durham, Ken Reitz, and Ty Waller to the Cubs for Sutter. Then, on December 12th, he sent Fingers, Ted Simmons, and Pete Vuckovich to the Brewers for David Green, Dave LaPoint, Sixto Lezcano and Lary Sorensen.

So, for three days, the Cardinals had the two premier closers in all of Major League Baseball at that time.

Interesting note about that trade with Fingers going to Milwaukee: my dad really liked Ted Simmons, or "Simba", as he was known. Of course, he had no way of knowing that Simba was a druggie that Whitey wanted gone from the clubhouse.

Fuel was further added to the anti-Herzog fire after Whitey famously told then-Brewers general manager Harry Dalton, "No David Green, no deal". My dad would recite that line to me all the time, especially after Green washed out with the Cardinals.

We went to a game at Ray Winder Field in 1981 when the Cardinals played the Travelers before heading on to St.Louis and we had seats very near the Cardinals dugout. My dad yelled "Where's Simmons, ya fat bastard!?" the entire game at Herzog and Whitey never once turned around. I was embarrassed as hell, of course, as other fans sitting around us started in with the "Where's Simmons?" yells every time new catcher Darrell Porter made an out or let a pitch get by him, which he did on more than one occasion.

Eventually, we were asked to leave the stadium and we did. Not one of my dad's better days but I think it shows the passion he had for the Cardinals.

Smolder

Thanks for the history lesson DJ. Wow, we gave up a ton. Although some of those guys did contribute to our world series win in 82, we gave them 2 Cy Young winners and HOF catcher for them. The only trade I ever heard that was truly bad for the Cardinals was the Steve Carlton trade. I will have to go look up bad trades by the Cardinals now.

Here is an Interesting fact I found about Pete Vuckovich when looking up more information: He played Yankees slugger Clu Haywood in the movie "Major League." 

Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson

The most recent "bad trade" would have to be the Haren-Mulder deal. Seemed great, turned very bad.
ched come back pls

FS Hog

Good for your Dad! I never forgave Herzog for trading Simmons so he could bring in Porter. I'm sure you know Porter was an addict and died from an overdose.

Smolder

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 12, 2011, 03:39:05 pm
We went to a game at Ray Winder Field in 1981 when the Cardinals played the Travelers before heading on to St.Louis and we had seats very near the Cardinals dugout. My dad yelled "Where's Simmons, ya fat bastard!?" the entire game at Herzog and Whitey never once turned around. I was embarrassed as hell, of course, as other fans sitting around us started in with the "Where's Simmons?" yells every time new catcher Darrell Porter made an out or let a pitch get by him, which he did on more than one occasion.

Eventually, we were asked to leave the stadium and we did. Not one of my dad's better days but I think it shows the passion he had for the Cardinals.

Nothing wrong with passion. Its admirable quality.

jbell96

Quote from: HogsnCards on April 12, 2011, 04:15:11 pm
The most recent "bad trade" would have to be the Haren-Mulder deal. Seemed great, turned very bad.

I still ram my head against the wall every time this trade is mentioned. I was doing okay then I saw Mulder on TV as an analyst and started ramming my head against a wall. I was against that trade before it happened. I have a very close friend who can vouch for me on that one. As the years went by it became a running joke since I would always ask him if it was okay for me to complain yet.

 

Jacob "2 Scoops" Johnson

Quote from: jbell96 on April 12, 2011, 04:43:34 pm
I still ram my head against the wall every time this trade is mentioned. I was doing okay then I saw Mulder on TV as an analyst and started ramming my head against a wall. I was against that trade before it happened. I have a very close friend who can vouch for me on that one. As the years went by it became a running joke since I would always ask him if it was okay for me to complain yet.
The fact we gave them Kiko Calero too makes it even worse. Pretty good arm in the 'pen we could have used.
ched come back pls

Hogtropolis™

It ended up being a horrible trade, but at the time I was definitely stoked about it. Haren was horribly inconsistent and Mulder was one of the better pitchers in the majors. It just sort of sucked for us the way things ended up panning out.

dhornjr1

Quote from: Cutty on April 12, 2011, 04:11:14 pm
Thanks for the history lesson DJ. Wow, we gave up a ton. Although some of those guys did contribute to our world series win in 82, we gave them 2 Cy Young winners and HOF catcher for them. The only trade I ever heard that was truly bad for the Cardinals was the Steve Carlton trade. I will have to go look up bad trades by the Cardinals now.

Here is an Interesting fact I found about Pete Vuckovich when looking up more information: He played Yankees slugger Clu Haywood in the movie "Major League." 

When I was six or seven years old, I yelled at Vuckovich at Busch Stadium and asked him to give me a ball. He fired it at me from about 15 or 20 yards away and it was sailing over my head. Luckily, my cousin was standing next to me and snared it with his bare hand.

dhornjr1

Quote from: FS Hog on April 12, 2011, 04:15:17 pm
Good for your Dad! I never forgave Herzog for trading Simmons so he could bring in Porter. I'm sure you know Porter was an addict and died from an overdose.

Yeah, at the time Whitey got him from Kansas City, he was a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. which was ironic in that Whitey was wanting to get rid of players who had had any involvement with drugs. But Whitey had a special affinity for Porter for some reason, like La Russa has with certain players.

I think Porter was back on the stuff by '85 when he had the passed ball in game 6 of the World Series. He died from a cocaine overdose, IIRC.

pigture perfect

2 game winning streak!!!! yay +1
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

dhornjr1

Quote from: pigture perfect on April 12, 2011, 09:38:01 pm
2 game winning streak!!!! yay +1

LOL +1 to you.

I loved that argument with Bob Davidson and Kirk Gibson. Old school...

clutch

Quote from: Hogtropolis™ on April 12, 2011, 05:34:54 pm
It ended up being a horrible trade, but at the time I was definitely stoked about it. Haren was horribly inconsistent and Mulder was one of the better pitchers in the majors. It just sort of sucked for us the way things ended up panning out.

At the time I was pumped about it. Of course, I didn't know that Mulder would spend the majority of his Cardinals career on the DL or that Haren would actually turn into a solid pitcher. I thought Haren was going to be one of those streaky guys that could give you a great day, but there was going to be some head scratching days in between.

clutch

Win or lose tonight, I am just glad to see the team scoring some runs.

pigture perfect

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 12, 2011, 09:18:39 pm
Yeah, at the time Whitey got him from Kansas City, he was a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. which was ironic in that Whitey was wanting to get rid of players who had had any involvement with drugs. But Whitey had a special affinity for Porter for some reason, like La Russa has with certain players.

I think Porter was back on the stuff by '85 when he had the passed ball in game 6 of the World Series. He died from a cocaine overdose, IIRC.
I called my nephew to be sure of the facts. My nephew was coached by Darrell Porter and played all the way through college with Darrell's son. He did not die of an overdose. There was some residual amounts of drugs in his system just not a lethal amount. He died of a heart attack, brought about by a heat injury. No doubt that he was not in the best of shape from the previous abuses.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

jbell96

Quote from: clutch on April 12, 2011, 10:47:04 pm
Win or lose tonight, I am just glad to see the team scoring some runs.

You'd think with Carp on the mound 8 runs would have been more than enough last night.

Smolder

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 12, 2011, 09:12:49 pm
When I was six or seven years old, I yelled at Vuckovich at Busch Stadium and asked him to give me a ball. He fired it at me from about 15 or 20 yards away and it was sailing over my head. Luckily, my cousin was standing next to me and snared it with his bare hand.

I bet he had some zip on the ball. He was/is a big guy. The only thing I ever got a game from a major league player at a game was a bat that Tom Pagnozzi broke when doing a rehab assignment at a Travelers game.

 

dhornjr1

Quote from: Cutty on April 13, 2011, 12:35:05 pm
I bet he had some zip on the ball. He was/is a big guy. The only thing I ever got a game from a major league player at a game was a bat that Tom Pagnozzi broke when doing a rehab assignment at a Travelers game.

The ball was coming at me at a good clip but it was obvious that it was going to sail over my head.

dhornjr1

I don't know if you remember Mike Heath, but in 1986 the Mets' first base coach, Bill Robinson, gave me a broken Mike Heath bat that he was carrying from the batting cage under the seats in left field at Busch II.

Smolder

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 13, 2011, 04:39:50 pm
I don't know if you remember Mike Heath, but in 1986 the Mets' first base coach, Bill Robinson, gave me a broken Mike Heath bat that he was carrying from the batting cage under the seats in left field at Busch II.

That is cool. I do remember him. He was a catcher and that is what I was when I played from pitching machine baseball all the way through high school. I used to watch catchers especially close as I wanted to be the best. I believe he was the first one I started watching as 1986 was my first year in baseball and the Cardinals where my favorite team. I think he was only with the Cardinals that one year, correct?

dhornjr1

Quote from: Cutty on April 13, 2011, 05:12:52 pm
That is cool. I do remember him. He was a catcher and that is what I was when I played from pitching machine baseball all the way through high school. I used to watch catchers especially close as I wanted to be the best. I believe he was the first one I started watching as 1986 was my first year in baseball and the Cardinals where my favorite team. I think he was only with the Cardinals that one year, correct?

He wasn't even with them a full year. He was so terrible they got rid of him before the '86 season was over. They traded him for Ken Hill and Mike Laga.

Laga, you will remember, is the only person to ever hit a baseball literally out of Busch Stadium. He fouled a pitch off and it went over the top of Busch II.

clutch

Quote from: Cutty on April 13, 2011, 12:35:05 pm
I bet he had some zip on the ball. He was/is a big guy. The only thing I ever got a game from a major league player at a game was a bat that Tom Pagnozzi broke when doing a rehab assignment at a Travelers game.

Hey I got a broken bat from Pagnozzi during his rehab stint with the Travs too.

Hogtropolis™

Our bats have been on fire the last two nights. What's bad is we're only going to get 1 win after hitting so well.

dhornjr1

Quote from: Hogtropolis™ on April 13, 2011, 10:16:00 pm
Our bats have been on fire the last two nights. What's bad is we're only going to get 1 win after hitting so well.

I'll take it. At least things are starting to look more like what we thought they would be - poor pitching and good hitting.

pigture perfect

15 runs so far. I'm counting this as a win and go to bed.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

jbell96

Nice to win our first series of the season. Glad to see our offense is coming alive to help our pitchers out a little bit.

Smolder

Eduardo Sanchez looked good last night. This may be out closer of the future. 95 mph fastball that reaches up to 98. Saved games in the minors and was named Minor League Reliever of the year in 2009.

NeverYield

Quote from: Cutty on April 14, 2011, 09:39:30 am
Eduardo Sanchez looked good last night. This may be out closer of the future. 95 mph fastball that reaches up to 98. Saved games in the minors and was named Minor League Reliever of the year in 2009.
We need him to keep it up.  Franklin learned too much from Izzy...  it's time for the next closer to step up!
"You can take a boy out of ole' dixie land lord, but ju'll never take ole' dixie from a boy..."  -Ronnie VanZant

jbell96

One thing I hate about TLR is that he is too cautious with young pitchers. Give these guys a chance. Franklin just turned 38 so it's time to start preparing for a replacement. We have plenty of guys who could fill the slot nicely.

dhornjr1

Quote from: jbell96 on April 14, 2011, 02:13:04 pm
One thing I hate about TLR is that he is too cautious with young pitchers. Give these guys a chance. Franklin just turned 38 so it's time to start preparing for a replacement. We have plenty of guys who could fill the slot nicely.

The one time he was forced into using young pitchers in key situations we won the World Series. Adam Wainwright, Anthony Reyes, Tyler Johnson, Josh Hancock, Josh Kinney, and Brad Thompson all came up big in the playoffs and World Series.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Isringhausen doesn't go down with the injury late in the year, we don't win the World Series in 2006. La Russa would have rode him right into a playoff defeat.

jbell96

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 14, 2011, 02:23:28 pm
The one time he was forced into using young pitchers in key situations we won the World Series. Adam Wainwright, Anthony Reyes, Tyler Johnson, Josh Hancock, Josh Kinney, and Brad Thompson all came up big in the playoffs and World Series.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Isringhausen doesn't go down with the injury late in the year, we don't win the World Series in 2006. La Russa would have rode him right into a playoff defeat.

I agree 100%. We might have taken the Padres out, but there is no way we beat the Mets with Izzy closing.

dhornjr1

Quote from: jbell96 on April 14, 2011, 05:11:33 pm
I agree 100%. We might have taken the Padres out, but there is no way we beat the Mets with Izzy closing.

Can you imagine Isringhausen facing Carlos Beltran in the bottom of the ninth in game 7 of the NLCS? Beltran would have smacked one to right center about 450 feet.

clutch

Do you think Franklin would be any better in a relief situation instead of a closer situation? Do you think it is just nerves, or he just flat out sucks and is pretty much worthless?

clutch

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 14, 2011, 06:09:07 pm
Can you imagine Isringhausen facing Carlos Beltran in the bottom of the ninth in game 7 of the NLCS? Beltran would have smacked one to right center about 450 feet.

No doubt about that. Beltran was scary at the time.

Hogtropolis™

Quote from: clutch on April 15, 2011, 10:48:49 pm
Do you think Franklin would be any better in a relief situation instead of a closer situation? Do you think it is just nerves, or he just flat out sucks and is pretty much worthless?
I think he sucks, but that's just my opinion.  I don't think the nerves has anything to do with it.  He's been around enough and has enough experience closing that the nerves shouldn't be a problem.  I just think that he's lost what little stuff he had to begin with.

I'm sorry I sound so harsh, but for as many saves as he's had for us, I've still never been a huge fan of his and have never trusted him in any save situation.

When I say he sucks though, I mean he sucks as a closer.  His stuff is not closer worthy.  I think it is middle reliever worthy, but I don't think his struggles have to do with his mentality, I think they have to do with his stuff is not good enough to be a closer.  As a closer, you can't make mistakes, because if you do the game is over.  As a middle reliever, you have some margin for error, because if you make a mistake and give up 2 or 3 runs, then your team still has time to come back.  It's not a do or die situation.  Franklin's stuff isn't do or die good.  That's why he sucks as a closer in my opinion.

So yes, he would be a good middle reliever, but basically because the expectations out of middle reliever aren't the same as the expectations for a closer.  I don't think it has to do with his mentality.

pigture perfect

All right! We won 4 of the last 5. Our offensive is clicking and we are at .500. +1's to everyone.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

dhornjr1

Quote from: clutch on April 15, 2011, 10:50:46 pm
No doubt about that. Beltran was scary at the time.

Yeah, he was. But Wainwright froze him like a statue.

dhornjr1

Quote from: Hogtropolis™ on April 15, 2011, 11:55:45 pm
I think he sucks, but that's just my opinion.  I don't think the nerves has anything to do with it.  He's been around enough and has enough experience closing that the nerves shouldn't be a problem.  I just think that he's lost what little stuff he had to begin with.

I'm sorry I sound so harsh, but for as many saves as he's had for us, I've still never been a huge fan of his and have never trusted him in any save situation.

When I say he sucks though, I mean he sucks as a closer.  His stuff is not closer worthy.  I think it is middle reliever worthy, but I don't think his struggles have to do with his mentality, I think they have to do with his stuff is not good enough to be a closer.  As a closer, you can't make mistakes, because if you do the game is over.  As a middle reliever, you have some margin for error, because if you make a mistake and give up 2 or 3 runs, then your team still has time to come back.  It's not a do or die situation.  Franklin's stuff isn't do or die good.  That's why he sucks as a closer in my opinion.

So yes, he would be a good middle reliever, but basically because the expectations out of middle reliever aren't the same as the expectations for a closer.  I don't think it has to do with his mentality.

Yeah, unless you have electric movement like Mariano Rivera, you better know how to spot pitches and change speeds like Trevor Hoffman in his later years. Rivera had the cutter that he could move in and out and Hoffman, after the injury, developed the devastating change-up. Franklin has no movement on his pitches and can't change speeds or spot pitches. His out-pitch is the same as every other pitch - a sinker.

Franklin would be ideal as a mop-up man.

pigture perfect

Anyone notice Kyle Lohse has looked pretty good his last two starts? Even his loss was basically a run support issue.
The 2 biggest fools in the world: He who has an answer for everything and he who argues with him.  - original.<br /> <br />The first thing I'm going to ask a lawyer (when I might need one) is, "You don't post on Hogville do you?"

WMHawgfan

Lohse has looked pretty good. Even in his loss he was dominating for most of it. Had a 5 pitch stretch that did him in, that and no run support. He is really pounding the bottom of the strikezone with that sinker.

On another note, I know its still early but you gotta say getting Berkman for 8mil is looking like a steal so far.

dhornjr1

Quote from: pigture perfect on April 16, 2011, 10:16:06 am
Anyone notice Kyle Lohse has looked pretty good his last two starts? Even his loss was basically a run support issue.
Quote from: WMHawgfan on April 16, 2011, 10:36:33 am
Lohse has looked pretty good. Even in his loss he was dominating for most of it. Had a 5 pitch stretch that did him in, that and no run support. He is really pounding the bottom of the strikezone with that sinker.

On another note, I know its still early but you gotta say getting Berkman for 8mil is looking like a steal so far.

Yeah, you won't catch me bashing Lohse right now. He's looked like a different guy so far. Let's hope he can keep it up.

+1's to all.

Smolder

Lohse was pretty good this spring.

clutch

Quote from: Hogtropolis™ on April 15, 2011, 11:55:45 pm
I think he sucks, but that's just my opinion.  I don't think the nerves has anything to do with it.  He's been around enough and has enough experience closing that the nerves shouldn't be a problem.  I just think that he's lost what little stuff he had to begin with.

I'm sorry I sound so harsh, but for as many saves as he's had for us, I've still never been a huge fan of his and have never trusted him in any save situation.

When I say he sucks though, I mean he sucks as a closer.  His stuff is not closer worthy.  I think it is middle reliever worthy, but I don't think his struggles have to do with his mentality, I think they have to do with his stuff is not good enough to be a closer.  As a closer, you can't make mistakes, because if you do the game is over.  As a middle reliever, you have some margin for error, because if you make a mistake and give up 2 or 3 runs, then your team still has time to come back.  It's not a do or die situation.  Franklin's stuff isn't do or die good.  That's why he sucks as a closer in my opinion.

So yes, he would be a good middle reliever, but basically because the expectations out of middle reliever aren't the same as the expectations for a closer.  I don't think it has to do with his mentality.

It takes a rare talent to be a dominant closer. It is pretty obvious he doesn't have what it takes. I was just wondering if anybody thought he would be any better in a different situation. I definitely don't want to see him on the bump when the game is on the line. I'd much rather see him as a middle reliever.

Quote from: dhornjr1 on April 16, 2011, 08:48:08 am
Yeah, he was. But Wainwright froze him like a statue.

Wainwright was SICK through that run. His stuff was flat out nasty.