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Second Half problems

Started by tigerinhogtown, May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am

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tigerinhogtown

What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: tigerinhogtown on May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am
What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.


Paul Rhoads
Go Hogs Go!

 

navyhog24

Stop playing not to lose/conservative in the second and keep the foot on the pedal/throat of the other team. Also, make second half adjustments like the other teams did against us. 

ricepig

Quote from: navyhog24 on May 24, 2017, 10:21:49 am
Stop playing not to lose/conservative in the second and keep the foot on the pedal/throat of the other team. Also, make second half adjustments like the other teams did against us. 

Those were points allowed, are you saying we were conservative in the second halves on defense?

Al Boarland

Quote from: tigerinhogtown on May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am
What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.

Figure out a way to recruit QUALITY depth.

navyhog24

Quote from: ricepig on May 24, 2017, 10:24:35 am
Those were points allowed, are you saying we were conservative in the second halves on defense?

We had the offense to score points. We scored most of our points in the first half and then hardly get anything in the second half. I never expected anything from that porous defense, but we had the offense to stay in most games or not give up the big leads that we had built.

Yes, Paul Rhoads is hopefully part of the solution to the porous second halves we have had and to the shyt for defense we had in general, but hopefully playing not to lose/conservative is done with as well. We all know Bielema does it and it's his style. Hopefully, he has learned it doesn't work.

GuvHog

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on May 24, 2017, 10:17:01 am
Paul Rhoads

A very good answer. I'll also add the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4. The defense though, is only part of the equation.

Against Missouri and VTech, the offense folded like a cheap pretzel in the second half. That has to stop too.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

ricepig

Quote from: navyhog24 on May 24, 2017, 11:19:07 am
We had the offense to score points. We scored most of our points in the first half and then hardly get anything in the second half. I never expected anything from that porous defense, but we had the offense to stay in most games or not give up the big leads that we had built.

Yes, Paul Rhoads is hopefully part of the solution to the porous second halves we have had and to the shyt for defense we had in general, but hopefully playing not to lose/conservative is done with as well. We all know Bielema does it and it's his style. Hopefully, he has learned it doesn't work.

So it sounds like the defense needs to be better to protect those leads, gotcha.

LRRandy

Quote from: navyhog24 on May 24, 2017, 11:19:07 am
We had the offense to score points. We scored most of our points in the first half and then hardly get anything in the second half. I never expected anything from that porous defense, but we had the offense to stay in most games or not give up the big leads that we had built.

Yes, Paul Rhoads is hopefully part of the solution to the porous second halves we have had and to the shyt for defense we had in general, but hopefully playing not to lose/conservative is done with as well. We all know Bielema does it and it's his style. Hopefully, he has learned it doesn't work.
the offense averaged 9.5 points in the second half for the 2016 season. That includes 28 in the second half against Alcorn St. and 20 in the second half against Miss. St. In 7 of 13 games last year the offense scored 7 or less points in the second half. being held to zero points in three of those games. It's not just the defense, as you noted.
This is fun, isn't it.

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

It wasn't just a defensive issue. In most (if not all) of those games, the offense stalled in the 2nd half as well
That's right, you don't want to be the man to replace the man.  You want to be the man to replace Rory Segrest.

colbs

Quote from: tigerinhogtown on May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am
What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.

The VT game was more an offense meltdown in the second half.  Austin threw a few INTs deep inside the Hogs territory.  Then Drew had the TO when he tried to stretch for a TD.  The LSU & Auburn game were pretty much over early in the second half.  The A&M & TCU game it seemed the defense wore down and the offense couldn't keep up.  The Missouri game was a total meltdown by the whole team. 

I think(hopefully) with the OL improving they will be able to sustain more drives and keep AA upright in obvious passing situations.  This should also help the defense out.  I think PR will improve the defense some this year as well.  I think both of these will improve the second half play.

Calling All Hogs

I'm guessing we will no longer be using Robb Smith's philosophy that if you just give an opposing QB enough time to stand around in the backfield he is bound to make a mistake sooner or later.

Al Boarland

Quote from: Calling All Hogs on May 24, 2017, 12:23:17 pm
I'm guessing we will no longer be using Robb Smith's philosophy that if you just give an opposing QB enough time to stand around in the backfield he is bound to make a mistake sooner or later.

Was that his philosophy in 2015?

 

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

Quote from: Al Boarland on May 24, 2017, 12:30:31 pm
Was that his philosophy in 2015?
Think youre referring to 2014 when he was running the Bermuda triangle. The more time passes it seems that it was the players making the coach look great.
That's right, you don't want to be the man to replace the man.  You want to be the man to replace Rory Segrest.

Al Boarland

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on May 24, 2017, 12:34:36 pm
The more time passes it seems that it was the players making the coach look great.
As it is with every coach.  It always about the talent.  Some around here must think CPR can walk on water.

Biggus Piggus

Arkansas's coaches had to develop a story that explained why the team had second-half collapses, so they could tell the current team what they can control to prevent this from being a problem in the future.

In coaching, you cannot afford to give complex, nuanced answers to major questions such as "why did we fold after having big halftime leads?" However, in simplifying the answer, one risks underestimating your players' intelligence.

Nevertheless, it's better to have players focused on things they can control, such as their preparation, stamina and effort.

Last year's team gave up big leads because the team was not unified. Some "leaders" resented the success of others. At the same time, the defense was extremely lacking in confidence in the plan.
[CENSORED]!

scooby21322

To me, it was always the offensive approach.  In the first halves of games, we had a balanced attack that produced a lot of points.  With leads, we tended to pull back the reins and shifted to a "safe" run heavy offense. It was almost as if we were trying to run off the clock for the entire second half. The other teams picked up on that and were able to stop the run.  As a result, the defense was on the field more and wore down.  To me, the solution is to not play as if we have a lead.  Play aggressive offense until the game is over. 

phadedhawg

Lots of good points above and I think it's a combination of all of them. 

The offense did lack in the 2nd half when they had the chance to put a team away.  Too many mistakes and break downs that allowed our opponent to steal momentum.

I always had the feeling that our defense, though a step behind the top half of the SEC, was okay in the first halves of games.  When it was time for subs to come on the field we took a few more steps back.  Lack of quality depth on defense keeps us from being a team that can protect a lead.   Hopefully we do better this year but I will wait to see it on the field before I dare hope.

pigroots

The o line could not line up and knock teams off the ball as we had done the last few years. We tried but failed.That left the d on the field long periods of time and the talent difference showed. For us we need to control the ball and the clock. It is essential to our success

bennyl08

I was thinking about making a thread analyzing the 2nd half collapses in the last two games but I think that will fit in well here.

First, the methodology. I'm strictly looking at the 2nd half of the last two games last year. While we have had 2nd half problems in other games, these were both full on collapses. I'm looking at the 2nd half only because that's when the collapses started. I'm using espn's box score. Limitations of that include not knowing if an incomplete pass was due to a drop, a bad throw, or pressure from the defense among other limitations. The goal of this analysis is to see if the offense or the defense was more an issue and if possible, what the issue was.

Mizz: 2nd half starts 24-7, arkansas has been cruising. Mizzou gets the ball to start the half. Our defense opens with forcing a 3rd and 11. However, Lock completes a 48 yard pass. Our defense gets sack and then tackles a quick pass for no gain forcing again a 3rd and 15. Missouri converts with first and goal at the 3. Our defense gives up the td but not before again forcing them to do it on third down.

Our offense moves the ball down the field to answer, but Austin throws a pick on 3rd and goal.

Ensuing drive, our defense stops them at third down. It is 4th and 7 at their own 7. They convert the 4th down on what I think was a fake punt which was an insane play call. 2 plays later the defense gives up a 67 yard td pass. It is now 24-21.

Austin has 3 pass attempts, 3 incompletions and punt.

Next Mizz drive, our defense again forces them to go three and out, but instead of out, they again convert on a fourth down. The next set of downs, missouri gets a 49 yard pass play and eventually gave up another td. 28-24 mizz, but 13 minutes left.

Arkansas has 3 straight run plays. Punts at 4th and 2, but Baker hit one for 60 yards downed at the 1. Mizzou gets a couple of first downs but we force a punt and get the ball back at our own 34. We march the ball down the field again. end up with 2nd and goal from the 1 yard line. RW3 loses a yard. Allen then loses 3 yards. Then he throws an int on 4th down.

We force a 3 and out, get the ball back again. Again, we march the ball all the way down to a 1st and goal from the 9. 4 straight passing plays and no points. Mizzou gets the ball back on downs and takes a knee ending the game.

Verdict: confidence and inexperience killed us this game. Our defense overall pretty well. 4th and long from inside your own 10, nobody should expect the other team to fake a punt there. The three td's that they scored in the 2nd half required 6 third down conversions, two of them 3rd and 11+, and 2 4th down conversions. After giving up the 2 long third down on the first drive, the 4th down on the 2nd, thats when the big plays started to happen. On the third td drive, the big play again happened shortly after giving up another 4th down conversion. On offense, the play calling was mostly fine. We marched the ball to having first and goal on 3 drives, two of them ending on 4th down. Their defense wasn't doing a great job of stopping us moving the ball down the field and by the 4th quarter, they weren't moving the ball on offense any more. Had we kicked a FG on the last two drives rather than going for the td on 4th down both times, we could have won. This game, the collapse was started by the defense, but the offense had it's faults as well.

VT: We are coming into the 2nd half up 24-0. A penalty and a sack put us in 3rd and long. Morgan fumbles the ball giving the defense a short field on which they quickly score. 24-7.

Our next drive is full of offensive mistakes as well with the only real movement a penalty by the defense. To start the 2nd half, a false start and 2 sacks from the OL. However, the defense forces VT to punt on their ensuing drive.

An offensive holding penalty puts at first and 20 after getting a first down the next drive. Austin runs 10 yards himself on 2nd down, but makes a bad interception, trying to force a play on third down. Defense forces a 3rd and 10 on VT's drive, but then gives up a 33 yard pass before scoring a td. 24-14.

Austin feels more pressure to score but Cantrell tips the pass for a VT int. 1 play and 5 yards later, VT scores. 24-21.

Arkansas gets a first down but has to punt. VT then has it's first real drive of the entire game, marching 76 yards and converting two 3rd downs to get a td.

Both teams trade punts before Austin throws a third INT which basically seals the game as VT then scored another td.

Verdict: This one was definitely more on the offense. Of the 35 unanswered points, only 1 of them came from drive that VT didn't start on their half of the field. 2 of Austin's 3 int's were bad reads from him. Morgan's fumble was largely Morgan's own fault as well. Austin was sacked 6 times that game, not to mention the numerous OL penalties.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

PorkRinds

Quote from: GuvHog on May 24, 2017, 11:35:46 am
A very good answer. I'll also add the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4. The defense though, is only part of the equation.

Against Missouri and VTech, the offense folded like a cheap pretzel in the second half. That has to stop too.

Mixed metaphors for $1000 please, Alex.

GuvHog

Quote from: PorkRinds on May 24, 2017, 04:37:39 pm
Mixed metaphors for $1000 please, Alex.

Nice comeback Pork.  :D
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

LRRandy

Quote from: pigroots on May 24, 2017, 03:04:16 pm
The o line could not line up and knock teams off the ball as we had done the last few years. We tried but failed.That left the d on the field long periods of time and the talent difference showed. For us we need to control the ball and the clock. It is essential to our success
Arkansas was number one in the nation in time of possession last year. I think it's more than just that.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot
This is fun, isn't it.

bennyl08

Quote from: LRRandy on May 24, 2017, 05:29:22 pm
Arkansas was number one in the nation in time of possession last year. I think it's more than just that.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

Against VT: Defense was on the field for 16:49 of the 30:00 half. However, against Missouri, they were on the field for 13:48.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

 

theFlyingHog

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on May 24, 2017, 12:42:38 pm

At the same time, the defense was extremely lacking in confidence in the plan.
I hope they like CPR and have bought in. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall and hear what the players think about

LZH

I am now concerned with how well an expensive pretzel folds.

PonderinHog

Quote from: LZH on May 24, 2017, 06:55:59 pm
I am now concerned with how well an expensive pretzel folds.
They're pre-folded.

LZH

Quote from: PonderinHog on May 24, 2017, 07:05:50 pm
They're pre-folded.

Can't even find a good old all American top notch pretzel folder these days? Figures..... @#$%& NAFTA!   >:(

ricepig


PonderinHog

I think we need to upgrade the half-time snack.


ricepig

Quote from: PonderinHog on May 24, 2017, 07:27:19 pm
I think we need to upgrade the half-time snack.



How about this.....





Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: scooby21322 on May 24, 2017, 01:08:01 pm
To me, it was always the offensive approach.  In the first halves of games, we had a balanced attack that produced a lot of points.  With leads, we tended to pull back the reins and shifted to a "safe" run heavy offense. It was almost as if we were trying to run off the clock for the entire second half. The other teams picked up on that and were able to stop the run.  As a result, the defense was on the field more and wore down.  To me, the solution is to not play as if we have a lead.  Play aggressive offense until the game is over. 

I still wonder if it's a talent issue.  As in the first half is more scripted.  Get to the 2nd half, and we've blown our wad and trying to hang on while the defenses have made adjustments.  Don't have the offensive horses to simply out talent the defense like so many teams in our division can.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: LRRandy on May 24, 2017, 05:29:22 pm
Arkansas was number one in the nation in time of possession last year. I think it's more than just that.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot


Yes, never bought into the TOP mantra.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

LRRandy

Quote from: Bubba's Bruisers on May 24, 2017, 07:42:47 pm
Yes, never bought into the TOP mantra.
in theory it sounds right. Keep the ball for long drives. Keep your defense on the sideline and their offense off the field, minimizing the opponents opportunity to score. The disconnect has been the Razorbacks  inability to finish drives with scores.
This is fun, isn't it.

Piggfoot

When a horse gives up in the stretch. He's gassed. We were short on depth and weren't conditioned properly.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

PorkRinds

Quote from: LRRandy on May 24, 2017, 09:34:44 pm
in theory it sounds right. Keep the ball for long drives. Keep your defense on the sideline and their offense off the field, minimizing the opponents opportunity to score. The disconnect has been the Razorbacks  inability to finish drives with scores.

That's my view as well. CBB's style will only work if we can score at the end of the drives. Our red zone offense has all too often been our Achilles heel. We should be able to push people around and we simply can't late in games.  CBB either figures it out or loses his job because of it.

PonderinHog

Quote from: Bubba's Bruisers on May 24, 2017, 07:42:47 pm
Yes, never bought into the TOP mantra.
It's great if you aren't getting torched for big plays on defense and you don't turn the ball over and finish your drives with points on offense.  I think it's a depth and talent issue as much as anything.

Al Boarland

Quote from: Bubba's Bruisers on May 24, 2017, 07:41:44 pm
I still wonder if it's a talent issue.  As in the first half is more scripted.  Get to the 2nd half, and we've blown our wad and trying to hang on while the defenses have made adjustments.  Don't have the offensive horses to simply out talent the defense like so many teams in our division can.

You wonder? Look at the recruiting rankings. Where we come in year after year screams lack of quality depth. You can't sign a few 4 stars every cycle and build quality depth.

southeasthog

Quote from: Al Boarland on May 25, 2017, 05:08:43 am
You wonder? Look at the recruiting rankings. Where we come in year after year screams lack of quality depth. You can't sign a few 4 stars every cycle and build quality depth.

I thought you have been harping that it is a Beliema issue. Are you now saying it is our historically low recruiting rankings?
Quote from: 1990sHogBallChild on March 04, 2023, 04:08:32 pmWe have peaked... lucked his way to two elite 8s by getting the most favorable draws in tourney history. Beat the most over-rated 1 seed in the history of college basketball in Gonzaga who would be a 6 seed if they played in a real conference. Then Muss's other 5 tourney wins are against an average of a 12 seed. A few dozen coaches could have done that. Two losing records in SEC play is as much as MA had in 8 years.

OS2 (SW) Razor Back

We need to attack attack attack then attack some more.The depth just wasn't there to do that last year. Going into last season we had lost a lot from the year before. i think we overachieved last year. This year some guys in key positions are a year older and way more experienced than they were a year ago. I expect better play from them this year in both halves.
The Giants win the penent!!!!!The Giants win the penent!!!
Today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the Earth.
I can't believe what I just saw!!!!
Down goes Frazier!!!! Down goes Frazier!!!
Do you believe in miricles?!?!?!

ricepig

Quote from: southeasthog on May 25, 2017, 05:20:44 am
I thought you have been harping that it is a Beliema issue. Are you now saying it is our historically low recruiting rankings?

Keep up, it Bielema's fault for not recruiting all 4*'s!!!

Lanny

Quote from: tigerinhogtown on May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am
What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.

All falls on the head coach, It's Bielema's 18 million job to stop the bleeding in 2017
"It's only a game if you win but if you lose it's a stinking waste of time."

Al Bundy

Me Like Hogs

Quote from: Piggfoot on May 24, 2017, 09:56:44 pm
When a horse gives up in the stretch. He's gassed. We were short on depth and weren't conditioned properly.

This is where I think our problem lies. The goal of controlling the clock is to wear the defense out, but it does seem that we may have been wearing ourselves out more than the defense. Think about a long 13 or more play drive in the second half. Our guys, in particular the O-Line, have been putting out max effort the entire drive but the defenses are subbing in new D-line guys every couple of plays. With the talent we face in the SEC this can lead to our inability to finish drives off against defenders that are less winded than we are.

tusksincolorado

Quote from: tigerinhogtown on May 24, 2017, 10:12:04 am
What has to happen to stop the 2nd half implosions? Last year 2nd half points allowed:
LSU 17
Mizzou 21
TCU 28
aTm 28
MSU 28
Auburn 28
VT 35

It wasn't just an issue in the last 2 games, it happened all season.


Lower our standards and become the "Miami Hurricanes of the 80's"! Thug life in Fayettenam....should keep the Washington and Fayetteville police in business!
Screw it! I'm an old angry male, live with it!

hawgXi

Quote from: Al Boarland on May 24, 2017, 10:38:36 am
Figure out a way to recruit QUALITY depth.

been wondering if the 2nd half break down was more lack of conditioning vs. lack of depth?

LZH

Quote from: hawgXi on May 25, 2017, 08:46:29 am
been wondering if the 2nd half break down was more lack of conditioning + lack of depth?

Could be....

Hog Fan...DOH!

Injuries and inexperience and players out of position on the Oline.  Inexperienced running backs.  Bad defense.  Bad leadership. 


I'm thinking the Oline will be improved.  Still inexperienced at RB and the defense... well, the defense.   And leadership, TBA from year to year.

Hog Fan...DOH!

Quote from: tusksincolorado on May 25, 2017, 07:54:31 am
Lower our standards and become the "Miami Hurricanes of the 80's"! Thug life in Fayettenam....should keep the Washington and Fayetteville police in business!

YA DOG!  Let's get some of those Marshallese kids from the mean streets of Springdale to start playing!

DeltaBoy

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on May 24, 2017, 12:34:36 pm
Think youre referring to 2014 when he was running the Bermuda triangle. The more time passes it seems that it was the players making the coach look great.

Yep those 3 boys made Rob look real good.
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

Hoggish1

Quote from: navyhog24 on May 24, 2017, 10:21:49 am
Stop playing not to lose/conservative in the second and keep the foot on the pedal/throat of the other team. Also, make second half adjustments like the other teams did against us. 

Right. There is no reason why we can't anticipate the adjustments our opponents are going to make at the half to stop what we just did to them and have a second half game plan ready to go that attacks that adjustment.