How many people thought that TAMU joining the SEC wouldn't hurt Arkansas?

[Wildhog]

Read more...as I said, there isn't anything to really prove or disprove either of our points.

Benny has repeatedly admitted that TAMU joining the SEC hurt us in a relative sense.

And you post data that shows TAMU's recruiting improving significantly (and immediately) once they joined the SEC.

Nothing to see here, though. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Benny has repeatedly admitted that TAMU joining the SEC hurt us in a relative sense.

And you post data that shows TAMU's recruiting improving significantly (and immediately) once they joined the SEC.

Nothing to see here, though. 

And Texas having less success in terms of wins didn't have anything to do with that? Yeah, OK. Like I said, those numbers don't prove anything except that A&M started picking up better recruits. Was it more Sumlin or more the SEC, or a combination of the two along with Texas losing more? Hard to say and impossible to prove either way.

[Wildhog]

And Texas having less success in terms of wins didn't have anything to do with that? Yeah, OK. Like I said, those numbers don't prove anything except that A&M started picking up better recruits. Was it more Sumlin or more the SEC, or a combination of the two along with Texas losing more? Hard to say and impossible to prove either way.

Even if it helped them just a little (it helped a lot, but whatever), it's STILL bad for us.

[Peter Porker]

The SEC is a greater recruiting draw than the Big 12.  You can point to Sumlin, or the downfall of Texas as much as you want.  It doesn't change the fact that it's easier to recruit to the SEC than it is the Big 12. 


And your post doesn't do anything to disprove that.  Really, it only helps my case.  So... thanks?

AND...the one advantage we had over them with Texas recruits (playing in the SEC) is gone.

[GuvHog]

Again, joining the SEC has helped them financially but the two things that have helped them the most since 2012 has been the fact that Sumlin is a far better recruiter than Sherman was and Texas being very average really helped A&M's recruiting. Talent wise, A&M has gotten better but it hasn't hurt us. We blew games against them that we should have won, even with less perceived talent. We hurt ourselves in that regard. Everything isn't just black and white.

Very well said!!

[GuvHog]

AND...the one advantage we had over them with Texas recruits (playing in the SEC) is gone.

As I stated earlier, Arkansas doesn't recruit the State of Texas as heavy as it used to. Since joining the SEC, they've moved to recruiting more in states like Louisiana, Georgia, and Florida. That has more to do with why the Hogs recruiting in Texas has declined than Texas A&M joining the SEC. A&M joining the SEC really hasn't hurt the Hogs.

[cosmodrum]

As I stated earlier, Arkansas doesn't recruit the State of Texas as heavy as it used to. Since joining the SEC, they've moved to recruiting more in states like Louisiana, Georgia, and Florida. That has more to do with why the Hogs recruiting in Texas has declined than Texas A&M joining the SEC. A&M joining the SEC really hasn't hurt the Hogs.

I can't imagine why we dont recruit Texas as heavy...

[EastexHawg]

I can't imagine why we dont recruit Texas as heavy...

Part of it is because Bielema and the staff he brought were more used to recruiting other parts of the country such as Florida.  From the beginning there wasn't as much emphasis on relying on Texas recruiting.

[Dominicanhog]

I never thought it would help but it was inevitable and better than texas

[Wildhog]

Part of it is because Bielema and the staff he brought were more used to recruiting other parts of the country such as Florida.  From the beginning there wasn't as much emphasis on relying on Texas recruiting.

They tried for a while.  Lately they've scaled back their efforts in Texas.

[Science Fiction Greg]

They've beaten us five straight years.  In conference play so far, they are an auto-loss.  Write as many words as you want, but them joining the SEC was bad for us.

Write as few words as you want; it won't make a complex issue as simple as you think it is.

[Wildhog]

Write as few words as you want; it won't make a complex issue as simple as you think it is.

I'm into the whole brevity thing.  Do you agree that joining the SEC has made A&M a better football program?

[ricepig]

They tried for a while.  Lately they've scaled back their efforts in Texas.

After tonight, 1/3 of our class will be from Texas, doesn't seem scaled back to me......

[Science Fiction Greg]

I'm into the whole brevity thing.  Do you agree that joining the SEC has made A&M a better football program?

No.  They have had one good year since joining and a lot of mediocre ones.  Pretty consistent with their entire history.  Occasionally good, mostly mediocre.

[Wildhog]

After tonight, 1/3 of our class will be from Texas, doesn't seem scaled back to me......

We have done a little better than usual in Texas this year.  Paul Rhoads has certainly helped.  I knew he was a good coach.  Surprised by how well he's recruited. 

[Wildhog]

No.

Please explain why not. 

[Science Fiction Greg]

Please explain why not.

I edited it in above, but here it is again.

They have had one good year since joining and a lot of mediocre ones.  Pretty consistent with their entire history.  Occasionally good, mostly mediocre.

[Wildhog]

I edited it in above, but here it is again.

They have had one good year since joining and a lot of mediocre ones.  Pretty consistent with their entire history.  Occasionally good, mostly mediocre.

They've become the premiere program in Texas.  Their recruiting skyrocketed immediately after joining the SEC.  They attract more top talent than they ever have.  Sumlin may be on the hot seat, but there's no doubt the SEC move elevated them as a program.

[Science Fiction Greg]

They've become the premiere program in Texas.  Their recruiting skyrocketed immediately after joining the SEC.  They attract more top talent than they ever have.  Sumlin may be on the hot seat, but there's no doubt the SEC move elevated them as a program.

There is more to football than recruiting ratings.  And Texas turning to crap doesn't mean the SEC made Texas A&M better.

[Wildhog]

There is more to football than recruiting ratings.

So you don't think they've signed better talent in the SEC than they did in the Big 12?

[Science Fiction Greg]

So you don't think they've signed better talent in the SEC than they did in the Big 12?

I can't see how you can read what I just typed and think that I think that.  What I actually said is that higher rated recruits =/= better football program.

[Wildhog]

I can't see how you can read what I just typed and think that I think that.

I thought you were saying that just because they're signing a lot more 4/5 stars in the SEC, that they weren't necessarily getting better talent.  My mistake.

[Science Fiction Greg]

I thought you were saying that just because they're signing a lot more 4/5 stars in the SEC, that they weren't necessarily getting better talent.  My mistake.

No, I'm saying there is more to a football program than recruiting rankings.  Mysteriously, despite all of these monster recruits, their results have been mediocre outside of the Manziel Heisman season.

[Wildhog]

No, I'm saying there is more to a football program than recruiting rankings.  Mysteriously, despite all of these monster recruits, their results have been mediocre outside of the Manziel Heisman season.

Well, they do have a coach on the hot seat for winning 68% of his games with a winning record in conference play.  He's definitely underachieved, as expectations are much higher at TAMU than Arkansas.

[Science Fiction Greg]

He's definitely underachieved

And yet, you are trying to argue they're a better program than they were?  Am I the only confused one in this conversation?

[Wildhog]

And yet, you are trying to argue there a better program?  Am I the only confused one in this conversation?

Of course they're a better program. 

They're about to fire a coach for having a record that would get our coach a lifetime extension and $100M buyout.

[cosmodrum]

Of course they're a better program. 

They're about to fire a coach for having a record that would get our coach a lifetime extension and $100M buyout.

Correct

[Science Fiction Greg]

Of course they're a better program. 

They're about to fire a coach for having a record that would get our coach a lifetime extension and $100M buyout.

They've been 8-5 three consecutive years.  That's mediocre anyway you look at it.  Here, it's mediocre, too.

But the point is how is it compared to A&M historically, since that was your argument.  Are they better now than they were.  Look at their history.  Mediocre with an occasional good season.  Just like recently.

[Wildhog]

They've been 8-5 three consecutive years.  That's mediocre anyway you look at it.  Here, it's mediocre, too.

CBB gets a raise/extension if he goes 8-5 this year.

[Science Fiction Greg]

CBB gets a raise/extension if he goes 8-5 this year.

You weren't comparing them to Bielema, you were comparing them to themselves before the SEC.  This is not relevant.

[cosmodrum]

They've been 8-5 three consecutive years.  That's mediocre anyway you look at it.  Here, it's mediocre, too.

That's our best result in 6 years. Would be nice to have that level of consistency.

[Science Fiction Greg]

That's our best result in 6 years. Would be nice to have that level of consistency.

Not relevant to the argument.  The argument is about how they compare to themselves pre-SEC, not to us.

[bphi11ips]

I'm into the whole brevity thing.  Do you agree that joining the SEC has made A&M a better football program?

Common sense says it should.  A&M's record has improved since joining the SEC.  How much of that is due to Kevin Sumlin, Johnny Manziel and Mike Evans is debatable, as is the huge investment A&M has made in facilities since joining. 

The Aggies were 11-2 in their first year in the league.  They beat Alabama.  That was also Sumlin's first year.  All of his players except the freshmen were recruited when A&M was part of the Big 12.  Sumlin went 9-4 his second year with Manziel.  Then capacity at Kyle Field increased by over 20,000, and Sumlin has gone 8-5 the three years since.  Now his roster is full of recruits signed since the Aggies joined the SEC, yet the SEC media, at least, pick them to finish behind Arkansas in 2017. 

So the answer might be, you would think the Aggies are a stronger program since joining the SEC, but then again, they are the Aggies.

[Science Fiction Greg]

Common sense says it should.  A&M's record has improved since joining the SEC.  How much of that is due to Kevin Sumlin, Johnny Manziel and Mike Evans is debatable, as is the huge investment A&M has made in facilities since joining. 

The Aggies were 11-2 in their first year in the league.  They beat Alabama.  That was also Sumlin's first year.  All of his players except the freshmen were recruited when A&M was part of the Big 12.  Sumlin went 9-4 his second year with Manziel.  Then capacity at Kyle Field increased by over 20,000, and Sumlin has gone 8-5 the three years since.  Now his roster is full of recruits signed since the Aggies joined the SEC, yet the SEC media, at least, pick them to finish behind Arkansas in 2017. 

So the answer might be, you would think the Aggies are a stronger program since joining the SEC, but then again, they are the Aggies.

Yep.

[Wildhog]

You weren't comparing them to Bielema, you were comparing them to themselves before the SEC.  This is not relevant.

They also aren't playing a B12 schedule anymore. 

Before 2012, they hadn't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 1999.  Since joining the SEC, they've been in the final rankings twice.  Also, they've been to a bowl game every year in the SEC, while only making a bowl three of the five years before that.  And that's playing a tougher schedule. 

[ricepig]

Common sense says it should.  A&M's record has improved since joining the SEC.  How much of that is due to Kevin Sumlin, Johnny Manziel and Mike Evans is debatable, as is the huge investment A&M has made in facilities since joining. 

The Aggies were 11-2 in their first year in the league.  They beat Alabama.  That was also Sumlin's first year.  All of his players except the freshmen were recruited when A&M was part of the Big 12.  Sumlin went 9-4 his second year with Manziel.  Then capacity at Kyle Field increased by over 20,000, and Sumlin has gone 8-5 the three years since.  Now his roster is full of recruits signed since the Aggies joined the SEC, yet the SEC media, at least, pick them to finish behind Arkansas in 2017. 

So the answer might be, you would think the Aggies are a stronger program since joining the SEC, but then again, they are the Aggies.

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkwBo/status/892863227469725696

[Wildhog]

Common sense says it should.  A&M's record has improved since joining the SEC.  How much of that is due to Kevin Sumlin, Johnny Manziel and Mike Evans is debatable, as is the huge investment A&M has made in facilities since joining. 

The Aggies were 11-2 in their first year in the league.  They beat Alabama.  That was also Sumlin's first year.  All of his players except the freshmen were recruited when A&M was part of the Big 12.  Sumlin went 9-4 his second year with Manziel.  Then capacity at Kyle Field increased by over 20,000, and Sumlin has gone 8-5 the three years since.  Now his roster is full of recruits signed since the Aggies joined the SEC, yet the SEC media, at least, pick them to finish behind Arkansas in 2017. 

So the answer might be, you would think the Aggies are a stronger program since joining the SEC, but then again, they are the Aggies.

Or maybe Sumlin sucks? 

The pieces are there for TAMU.  The right coach makes them a juggernaut.

[Science Fiction Greg]

They also aren't playing a B12 schedule anymore. 

Before 2012, they hadn't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 1999.  Since joining the SEC, they've been in the final rankings twice.  Also, they've been to a bowl game every year in the SEC, while only making a bowl three of the five years before that.  And that's playing a tougher schedule.

Two issues I have with this argument, 1) the tougher schedule is a bare assertion.  I'd like to see numbers before I concede that point.  2) The difference between 5/5 and 3/5 is not that huge, considering we are comparing to their overall program, not just the previous 5 years.  It comes down to an issue of sample size.  5 years is really not enough to judge one way or another.

Even if that point were conceded, there are other factors that changed at the same time.  I mean, if they had changed from Coke to Pepsi the same year, it wouldn't mean that was the cause for any "improvement."  It's a very complex issue, and not just higher recruiting rankings = SEC made them better.  And it's definitely not Arkansas shoots itself in the foot eleventy times in a row so the SEC made them better.

As it stands, there is no convincing current reason to believe that A&M is a better football program since joining the SEC.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Or maybe Sumlin sucks? 

The pieces are there for TAMU.  The right coach makes them a juggernaut.

That's why I sound like a broken record when I keep bringing up Mullen. He has about a year remaining on his contract (after this season) at Miss State and the A&M AD has already been kind enough to put Sumlin on notice, publicly mind you. If Sumlin only wins 8 in the regular season again this year I wouldn't be surprised to see A&M and Sumlin part ways. Mullen would be a nice pick up for them and I really don't want to see him having that level of talent at his disposal.

[Science Fiction Greg]

A few stats on schedule strength for A&M:

The past three seasons their SOS has been 18-20.

The previous 8 seasons to joining the SEC were:
9th, 20th, 40th, 61st, 21st, 37th, 30th, 10th.

So their schedule has been both better and worse. And the same.

[Wildhog]

A few stats on schedule strength for A&M:

The past three seasons their SOS has been 18-20.

The previous 8 seasons to joining the SEC were:
9th, 20th, 40th, 61st, 21st, 37th, 30th, 10th.

So their schedule has been both better and worse. And the same.

Average the five years they've been in the SEC and the 5 years prior to joining the SEC.    Just curious.

[bennyl08]

Of course they're a better program. 

They're about to fire a coach for having a record that would get our coach a lifetime extension and $100M buyout.

That's where you are mistaken.

First and foremost, that is absolutely not why Sumlin is on the hotseat. Might as well say Petrino was on the hotseat because he never could be Bama. Petrino was fired for off the field scandals. Sumlin's seat is hot because of off the field chaos. Turmoil within the program, hemorrhaging of qb's, and not enough to show for it on the field to overlook.

If what you said was true, Gus would be in the same bus. Had one good season and then has won 8, 7, and 8 games the past 3 years. There are some people rubbing sticks there, but his seat is only lukewarm from the rumors and possible recruiting violations, not his record.

Further, if Bielema doesn't win 9+ games this season barring unusual circumstances (such as Fitzgerald turning into Cam Newton or the such), then his seat will be very warm next season and likely fired after the following season barring a miracle on the hog's end.

[HiggiePiggy]

Sorry Benny I don't see Bret being fired anytime soon he can win 6 games this year and then 7 next year and still be safe for a couple more years after that.

[bennyl08]

Sorry Benny I don't see Bret being fired anytime soon he can win 6 games this year and then 7 next year and still be safe for a couple more years after that.

Long's actions in the past as well as any shred of common sense suggests otherwise.

Pelphrey would easily still be our HC if middle of the pack was all you needed to stay employed here.

You don't come to paint at Arkansas. If you can't win here, then you won't stay employed here.

Things are set up very nicely for the hogs this year in terms of our returning players and the ease of our schedule. If Bielema can't rise above the hump this year, then it will spell the beginning of the end for him barring a surprise 6th season with a tougher schedule and breaking in a new qb.

Pelphrey was 69-59 with the Razorbacks, including an 18-13 record this season. Arkansas lost to Tennessee in the opening round of the Southeastern Conference tournament on Thursday, the third straight first-round exit for the program.

"I wanted to give John every chance possible, and I felt like four years was fair to John given the situation he took over and given the commitment that was made to him when he arrived here," athletic director Jeff Long said. "I had very high hopes that John could be successful, and I think John could be successful in another situation.

"But it wasn't happening here at Arkansas."

Arkansas finished fourth in the SEC West this season. Pelphrey has three years remaining on his contract and will be paid a negotiated buyout, a source close to the situation told ESPN.com.

[Wildhog]

A few stats on schedule strength for A&M:

The past three seasons their SOS has been 18-20.

The previous 8 seasons to joining the SEC were:
9th, 20th, 40th, 61st, 21st, 37th, 30th, 10th.

So their schedule has been both better and worse. And the same.

I just checked it out myself, and you were a little dishonest.  Might have been unintentional.

The last three years were 19, 18, and 12.  And the two years before that (first two years in the SEC) were 19 and 3.

[ricepig]

Sorry Benny I don't see Bret being fired anytime soon he can win 6 games this year and then 7 next year and still be safe for a couple more years after that.

16 regular season wins in the next two seasons gets an extension, less than that, and we'll be doing that coaching search thingy.....

[Science Fiction Greg]

I just checked it out myself, and you were a little dishonest.  Might have been unintentional.

The last three years were 19, 18, and 12.  And the two years before that (first two years in the SEC) were 19 and 3.

Looks like my scroll bar slipped a year, because what I had down was 19, 18, 19.  It was a mistake not dishonesty.  I went and checked, and you are correct.  My best guess is my scroll bar slipped a notch and I didn't realize.  I was trying to just look at the 3 8-5 seasons.  Not a huge difference, but a notable one.

[Wildhog]

Looks like my scroll bar slipped a year, because what I had down was 19, 18, 19.  It was a mistake not dishonesty.  I went and checked, and you are correct.  My best guess is my scroll bar slipped a notch and I didn't realize.  I was trying to just look at the 3 8-5 seasons.  Not a huge difference, but a notable one.

No worries.  It's the internet.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

16 regular season wins in the next two seasons gets an extension, less than that, and we'll be doing that coaching search thingy.....

I'm not so sure about that. But I am also not sure enough to say that you are wrong. I think that Bielema needs to win 9 this year and next to keep his job, but at the very least, 9 this year and 8 next year. I'm not happy with that win total given the number of years that he has had to build the program. For me, it needs to be more, but next season he will be starting over with a new QB and who knows how much experience that QB gets this season? Other moving parts are involved, but the QB is a pretty huge moving part.

[gchamblee]

There may be 43 people outside the states of Arkansas and Missouri who care about that game.  Let's face it, for the rest of the country it's a snoozer...especially when there are no division or conference championship implications.

Lol that is not true at all. You have no idea what you are talking about. Football fans watch football when football is on. When there is only 1 game on, that's what they watch. I can get ratings info for you if you need proof, but I have a feeling your mind would collapse on itself if someone presented viewership numbers to you. I get it, you want to make everything a bitchfest, but when you are wrong ( which is most of the time) you should be corrected.