Any American or American Eagle pilots out there....

[jonesark™]

What do you think about today's news? I'm pretty new to commercial flying so I'm just going to expect the worse...

[theFlyingHog]

I'm not an airline pilot but I know a bunch of them. This stuff won't be fun for anybody but in the long run it will be better for the company(ies), and therefore, the employees. (Would you rather lose some pension, or your job and everything that goes with it?) AMR has been at a disadvantage being the only legacy to not restructure under Ch 11 in the last decade. I'll sure be buying stock if I've got some cash on hand...

[Brownstreak]

I'm not an airline pilot but I know a bunch of them. This stuff won't be fun for anybody but in the long run it will be better for the company(ies), and therefore, the employees. (Would you rather lose some pension, or your job and everything that goes with it?) AMR has been at a disadvantage being the only legacy to not restructure under Ch 11 in the last decade. I'll sure be buying stock if I've got some cash on hand...

I would bet good money that pilot pay and pensions are less than 5% of AMRs expenses, so in reality it won't help the bottom line that much.  What it will do is look good to the board members, stock holders and wall street.
Anyone want to take bets on management taking the same percentage of pay cuts and forgoing bonuses?

[theFlyingHog]

I would bet good money that pilot pay and pensions are less than 5% of AMRs expenses, so in reality it won't help the bottom line that much.  What it will do is look good to the board members, stock holders and wall street.
Anyone want to take bets on management taking the same percentage of pay cuts and forgoing bonuses?

I don't know what percent it is, but they owe $18.5B in pension benefits.

I still giggle over the pilots being upset that management received stock performance bonuses several years ago after the APA turned down the same benefit in favor of immediate pay raises. There really does need to be a culture change in Dallas. It will be a better company if it's everyone against the world, not management against the worker bees

[Brownstreak]

I don't know what percent it is, but they owe $18.5B in pension benefits.

I still giggle over the pilots being upset that management received stock performance bonuses several years ago after the APA turned down the same benefit in favor of immediate pay raises. There really does need to be a culture change in Dallas. It will be a better company if it's everyone against the world, not management against the worker bees

Legally their pensions are supposed to be fully funded.  But much like our government they're not due to the rob Peter to pay Paul creative accounting that they do.
I would bet that their rational for turning down stock performance based bonuses was as much of a indictment of their lack of faith in management as much as it was clawing back monies lost after 9-11 pay cuts.  It's a long term job for pilots and they want back what they lost.  Management never lost anything.

Management people have the ability to go somewhere else at similar pay.  Pilots on the other hand cannot.  We start over.  At the bottom in both seniority and pay. 
I'm sure the pilots thought the only thing management can't screw with is pay, so let's get paid.  The only problem is, in CH 11, all bets are off.

I don't work at AA, but I DO work for a company that has at least the same antagonistic management vs employee relationship.

[theFlyingHog]

There are some things I really hate about the seniority system. I've thought long and hard about going for an airline job and that's part of the reason.

[Brownstreak]

There are some things I really hate about the seniority system. I've thought long and hard about going for an airline job and that's part of the reason.

I agree, there are plenty of things I hate too,  but I've also worked at places where politics and brown nosing were the rules of the day.  It's equally frustrating to not get an upgrade because I wasn't part of the good o' boy club.
I'd NEVER upgrade if I had to rely on planting kisses on the appropriate a$$es. Hahaha!

[Brownstreak]

You're also very smart in thinking long and hard about an airline career.  It's not a career choice I recommend to anyone these days.  Good luck in whatever you decide.

[ADAM_713]

Simply AA was operating at a disadvantage to other airlines because of the debtload and employee pension expenses owed.  Is it right to go to CH 11?  No.  With that being said it made good business sense, and in the long run will be better all the way around. 

[Brownstreak]

I predict that this will be an easy way for them to merge with or get bought by someone.

[jonesark™]

I just wonder what the immediate effect will be for the pilots....I figure people will start getting the boot at the beginning of the year...

[theFlyingHog]

I just wonder what the immediate effect will be for the pilots....I figure people will start getting the boot at the beginning of the year...

They have been losing pilots at an alarming rate and the flow through pilots from AE are washing out of training. I still think the next few years will be "better" for pilots.

[Brownstreak]

They have been losing pilots at an alarming rate and the flow through pilots from AE are washing out of training. I still think the next few years will be "better" for pilots.

I hadn't heard that about AE pilots busting training.  What's the deal with that?
Hopefully, it will get better for pilots.  I also hope it gets "worse" for management.

[Brownstreak]

American bankruptcy filing spurs speculation of merger with US Airways

By Linda Loyd
Inquirer Staff Writer

TIM CHAPMAN / Miami Herald
American Airlines jets at Miami International Airport just hours after the airline filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Tuesday.

American Airlines and its parent company filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday to cut costs and restructure in a time of economic uncertainty and volatile fuel prices.

The move prompted speculation that American might tie the knot with another big airline. The most likely suitor: US Airways Group Inc., Philadelphia's dominant airline.

"We believe today's filing by American potentially works to the advantage of US Airways," analyst Kevin Crissey, of UBS Securities L.L.C., wrote in a client note. "American potentially needs a partner to achieve more scale, and US Airways may provide that avenue."

But a merger will happen only if new American CEO Thomas Horton, named Tuesday to replace retiring chief executive Gerard Arpey, is interested. His predecessor was not, said veteran airline analyst Bob McAdoo, of Avondale Partners L.L.C.

"There are substantial business reasons why a merger with US Airways would give American Airlines a far more widespread presence in the eastern one-third of the country," McAdoo said.

A US Airways-American combination would help American compete better across the Atlantic in Europe.

By the numbers, US Airways' Philadelphia hub effectively collects passenger traffic out of the Northern and Eastern United States to Europe, and generates more revenue to and from Europe each day than American does at either New York's JFK or Chicago's O'Hare airport, McAdoo said.

A merger with US Airways also would give American, which is strong in the Midwest and West, as many as 60 new cities to serve.

As the only major U.S. airline that did not seek bankruptcy protection after the Sept. 11 attacks, American has continued to lose money as other U.S. carriers have returned to profitability in recent years.

Two weeks ago, Standard & Poor's lowered its ratings on American, citing the company's failure to get a new contract with its pilots' union before reporting a $162 million third-quarter loss.

American said Tuesday that it would operate flights, honor tickets, and take reservations while it reorganizes.

The Fort Worth, Texas-based company has three gates at Philadelphia International Airport and 16 daily departures - 11 on American and five on American Eagle. American flies to Dallas, Chicago, and Miami and has 3.5 percent of the market here.

The bankruptcy filing was not a surprise, but the timing was, said Seth Kaplan, managing partner of Airline Weekly, an industry publication.

American said everything would be normal for now, but the airline will shrink - in aircraft, employees, and routes. American hubs like Dallas and Miami may escape relatively unscathed, while Los Angeles and Chicago could be more vulnerable, Kaplan said.

The bankruptcy will not necessarily lead to a merger.

"They should be able to stand alone," he said, "but certainly a merger is now more likely."

American's cost structure had been the biggest roadblock to merger. Bankruptcy provides flexibility and has led to other recent matches, such as Delta-Northwest and United-Continental.

US Airways, the fifth-largest U.S. airline, favors industry consolidation. It made a hostile takeover bid for bankrupt Delta Air Lines in 2007 and twice was in merger talks with United Airlines.

With the bankruptcy, American will be able to renegotiate aircraft leases, return inefficient planes, and renegotiate contracts with its pilots, who will likely see their pension plan restructured, analyst Helane Becker, of Dahlman Rose & Co., wrote.

The Chapter 11 filing is "good for the entire industry," said analyst James Higgins, of Ticonderoga Securities L.L.C. "By filing now, with ample unrestricted cash, American can avoid the customary need for debtor-in-possession financing, and is likely to retain more control over its reorganization."

Higgins predicted that American would emerge as a stand-alone airline, and that even if American and US Airways someday tied the knot, "I would be surprised if it happened as part of this bankruptcy process."

Since American has $4.1 billion in cash, chances are less that US Airways could persuade creditors that a merger "is better for them," he said.

A US Airways-American combination would be "a good fit" from an industry standpoint, Higgins said, and Philadelphia would likely remain a hub.

"I don't think American is strong enough in New York to give up Philadelphia as a hub," he said.



History

Since 1990, there have been 189 bankruptcy filings by airlines. Here's some that filed for protection or went out of business in that time:

Nov. 29, 2011: American Airlines

2010: Mesa Air

2008: Sun Country, Frontier Airlines, Aloha Airlines

2005: Delta, Northwest, and Comair

2004: US Airways

2002: United Airlines, US Airways

2001: Trans World Airlines (TWA)

1998: Pan American World Airways

1995: TWA

1993: Hawaiian Airlines

1992: TWA

1991: America West Airlines, Eastern Air Lines, Pan Am World Airways

1990: Continental Airlines

SOURCE: Associated Press

American History

1930: American Airways is incorporated. The company includes several small airmail contractors. It becomes American Airlines Inc. in 1934.

1979: American undertakes a major route expansion after deregulation of the industry. The headquarters moves from New York to

Fort Worth, Texas.

1982: The current

AMR Corp. is formed.

January 2001: American says it will buy the assets of Trans World Airlines.

Sept. 11, 2001: Terrorist attacks include the crashes of two American Airlines jets.

2003: American narrowly avoids bankruptcy after workers agree to sharp pay cuts.

Nov. 29, 2011: American Airlines and parent AMR file for bankruptcy protection.

SOURCE: American Airlines, Associated Press archives.

Contact staff writer Linda Loyd at 215-854-2831 or lloyd@phillynews.com.

[theFlyingHog]

I hadn't heard that about AE pilots busting training.  What's the deal with that?
Hopefully, it will get better for pilots.  I also hope it gets "worse" for management.

From what I heard, it was a mix of AA having not trained any new hires in 10 years, and the AE pilots trying to switch from modern all-glass flight decks to Super80s

[Brownstreak]

That's too bad, but it's also strange.  I haven't heard of Delta or Northwest before them having the same issues.  I've seen some new trainers that are all glass, so if the Super 80 is the first round dial steam gauge jet, then I could see how it would be a tough transition.

When I transitioned from the MD11 to the 757 it took a bit to get my scan back, but if I never had a scan to begin with...

[jonesark™]

They have been losing pilots at an alarming rate and the flow through pilots from AE are washing out of training. I still think the next few years will be "better" for pilots.

I just dont see the "better", I have 3 or 4 friends that started with American Eagle within the last year and one other that started training a week ago. I just dont see anyway they keep there jobs throughout this process. I read the first thing to go is the 50 or less seat airplanes, which is basically AE's fleet, minus like 47 CRJ700's. Sad..

[theFlyingHog]

I just dont see the "better", I have 3 or 4 friends that started with American Eagle within the last year and one other that started training a week ago. I just dont see anyway they keep there jobs throughout this process. I read the first thing to go is the 50 or less seat airplanes, which is basically AE's fleet, minus like 47 CRJ700's. Sad..

I would guess that there will be fewer net flying jobs at AE when this is all over. I really don't know how the scope issue is going to work out, but AE may eventually end up flying larger aircraft, especially if they do get sold out of AMR. They need to get a new generation of Tprops. I don't care what public opinion is, going all jet(save the tiny ATR fleet) was beyond stupid.

As soon as we hit the end of this 5 year retiring moratorium things should pick up. AA has more pilots over 60 than under 40.