Michigan OL walks Away

[EastexHawg]

Are you saying that people who work out gain muscle around their skulls?

I'm saying as athletes get bigger and stronger they get bigger and stronger everywhere.  Their neck and shoulder muscles get bigger and stronger.  What was the average height and weight of an NFL quarterback in 1950?  What is it today?

How many 220 pound running backs were there in 1950?  How many are there today?

As people get bigger, everything about them becomes bigger...including, yes, their heads.

I used the Andre the Giant vs. Eddie LeBaron illustration to make a point that I think we all intuitively understand...that the same big, strong, fast man hitting a smaller, weaker target does more damage than when he hits a larger, stronger target.  We all instinctively understand it whether we can explain the science behind it using a fancy equation or not.  It's common sense.

Now, regarding "faster"...how much more acceleration do you think Ray Lewis was able to generate at impact versus Dick Butkus?  How much more than Chuck Bednarik?

We're talking about players being somewhat faster than in past years, not exponentially faster.  We keep reading about today's players supposedly running 4.3s (backs) and 4.7s (linemen), but when they get to the combine and are timed electronically those lies are exposed.

I simply think it is important to keep things in perspective.  Football can be a dangerous game now, but that's not anything new.  It could be dangerous for the "smaller, weaker, slower" men who played it 30-100 years ago, too.

[Karma]

Did you read the consensus statement issued by the doctors who took part in the conference?  It's included in the link I posted.

Since you are asking questions, are you now to the point that you ignore the opinion issued by doctor after doctor after doctor who specializes in the field of head trauma/CTE?  If so, why?  Because you've heard people on TV or the internet say the football definitely causes CTE, that football is too dangerous, and that Junior Seau wouldn't have killed himself if he hadn't played MLB for the Chargers?

Why did the German Wings pilot kill himself and 149 other people?  Did James Harrison hit him too hard helmet to helmet?

Are you saying you don't believe playing football leads to a higher rate of brain trauma?

[EastexHawg]

Are you saying you don't believe playing football leads to a higher rate of brain trauma?

Of course playing a collision sport increases the chances of brain injury.  The questions are (a) is the risk of playing football significantly higher than it was in the past and (b) what are the odds that playing football will cause severe or permanent brain injury?

I don't think the answers to those questions are clear cut.

Why did Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, and Steve Young retire from football?  Numerous concussions.  Staubach is now in his 70s.  Have you heard him speak lately? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awTEja8JD8o&feature=player_embedded

Aikman and Young currently make their livings as TV personalities.  Aikman is close to 50 and Young is well into his 50s.  I can't tell that they demonstrate effects of debilitating brain injury.

Will some former NFL players suffer a severe loss of brain function?  Of course they will.  So will some former couch potatoes.  It happens to people in all walks of life whether they are repeatedly hit on the head or not.  Some former NFL players will also develop cancer.  That doesn't mean football caused it.

[HappyHogFan]

Does the current concern and highlight on head injuries make the two guys that have quit stories more elevated?  I think for 99% of collegiate football players, their best pay day would be making the NFL and doing for the tenure to receive health benefits forever.  If they weigh those risk and it isn't worth making it and they are satisfied with what career opportunities are in front of them, then great for them!  For some (possible more than we know) football is the only way they can make a living legally and above poverty level.

99% of college football players (perhaps even higher than that) will never play pro football at any level, and so making health decisions based on those odds would be stupid.

[bennyl08]

I'm saying as athletes get bigger and stronger they get bigger and stronger everywhere.  Their neck and shoulder muscles get bigger and stronger.  What was the average height and weight of an NFL quarterback in 1950?  What is it today?

How many 220 pound running backs were there in 1950?  How many are there today?

As people get bigger, everything about them becomes bigger...including, yes, their heads.

I used the Andre the Giant vs. Eddie LeBaron illustration to make a point that I think we all intuitively understand...that the same big, strong, fast man hitting a smaller, weaker target does more damage than when he hits a larger, stronger target.  We all instinctively understand it whether we can explain the science behind it using a fancy equation or not.  It's common sense.

Now, regarding "faster"...how much more acceleration do you think Ray Lewis was able to generate at impact versus Dick Butkus?  How much more than Chuck Bednarik?

We're talking about players being somewhat faster than in past years, not exponentially faster.  We keep reading about today's players supposedly running 4.3s (backs) and 4.7s (linemen), but when they get to the combine and are timed electronically those lies are exposed.

I simply think it is important to keep things in perspective.  Football can be a dangerous game now, but that's not anything new.  It could be dangerous for the "smaller, weaker, slower" men who played it 30-100 years ago, too.

What workout do you do to make your head bigger? A lot of people's head's will get smaller because they have lower body fat. Powerlifters will have bigger heads because they try to gain as much as they can and so they accumulate more body fat on their face. I mean, I guess if you put some weights on your eyebrows you could feasibly work out some of your facial muscles and such. However, in general, no, the muscle mass on one's head does not grow. However, let's assume it does. Do you think it grows enough to match the growth experienced elsewhere? Let's say for every 10 pounds of muscle you add to your body you add 1 pound of muscle to your head. Is that going to keep pace?

So, let's look at 2 players who weight 180 pounds colliding and two guys who weigh 257 colliding. The guy who weighs 257 have 70 pounds more muscle on their body and 7 pounds more muscle on their heads. The second guy collides with the first guy's head, is that 7 pounds of more muscle around the head going to be enough to account for the extra 70 pounds of athlete hitting his head? I wouldn't think so, and I'm even exaggerating any muscle gains to the head in an effort to give your argument a fighting chance.

What about the extra 70 pounds of muscle the guy getting hit has? That should be a factor too should it not? It depends on the collision. The human body is not a rigid body like a car is for example. If I push on your hand, your entire body doesn't move, just your hand. If I apply enough force, your entire arm will move, and then even more force your entire body will. Now, if you keep your wrist and elbow rigid, if I press on your hand, your whole arm will move, but not your body unless I apply enough force. The reason your body will eventually move isn't because I'm moving your body, but your arm has moved enough that it is now acting on the body. However, let's say I'm pushing your right hand. If you are holding a bowling ball in your left, does it make it harder for me to move your right hand? No. This is essentially what is happening. If I press on your head, your head will move until it can't any more then it will transfer the force onto the body it is attached to. If I now put a backpack weighing 30 pounds on you and try to press on your head again, is it going to be harder to move? No. Even though your body is more massive, your head isn't. When it comes to me  hitting your head with my full body weight, you could be wearing a backpack with 100 pounds in it, that isn't going to effect how your head receives my blow. Now, if I tackle you around your chest or waist, then you weighing 100 pounds is going to make a big difference in how you feel my tackle. You are 100% correct on that. The problem is, me tackling you at the waist isn't generally how you get concussions. Hence, why I am talking about head contact. If I put 100 pounds in a car, it isn't going to matter where in the car I put it, the car is going to be harder to push. If I have you hold 100 pounds in one arm, that isn't going to effect the momentum in your other arm. It will effect the ability to move your head some because your neck will stiff from straining to hold it, but that stiffness is negligible compared to if I have 100 pounds more to hit your head with.

[EastexHawg]

I'm even exaggerating any muscle gains to the head in an effort to give your argument a fighting chance. 

My argument doesn't need you to give it a fighting chance because it people who consider it know it is intuitively true.

If pitting men of similar size and strength against each other, whether large or small, doesn't make a difference...who do you suppose there have always been weight classes in boxing?

[bennyl08]

My argument doesn't need you to give it a fighting chance because it people who consider it know it is intuitively true.

If pitting men of similar size and strength against each other, whether large or small, doesn't make a difference...who do you suppose there have always been weight classes in boxing?

Because of the differences in body blows. A 150 pound person isn't going to have much effect punching the body of a 220 pound person, while the 220 pound person will do a lot more damage to the body of the lighter weight.

Ever stop and wonder why more heavy weight fights end in knockouts than lightweight?

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/17/3163315/ufc-2012-fight-statistics-ufc-stats

You would think if head stability increased proportionately with weight, that a person would be just as likely to be knocked out in a lower weight class as an upper weight class. That is unequivocally not true. A big guy is going to fare better than a little guy when facing another big guy. However, a big guy is more likely to get a knockout even when facing another big guy is than a little guy.

In short, you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.

[Karma]

My argument doesn't need you to give it a fighting chance because it people who consider it know it is intuitively true.

If pitting men of similar size and strength against each other, whether large or small, doesn't make a difference...who do you suppose there have always been weight classes in boxing?

I guess you think boxing doesn't cause brain damage either.

Seriously, read league of denial and explain to me how you can refute that.

[EastexHawg]

You would think if head stability increased proportionately with weight, that a person would be just as likely to be knocked out in a lower weight class as an upper weight class. That is unequivocally not true. A big guy is going to fare better than a little guy when facing another big guy. However, a big guy is more likely to get a knockout even when facing another big guy is than a little guy.

Duk Koo Kim would applaud your theory and give you a high five if Boom Boom Mancini hadn't beaten him to death in the ring.

[vandybuff]

Interesting to see how prevalent this becomes.

http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=12555518&i=TWT&w=1ezig

i think very prevalent. 

[urkillnmesmalls]

Of course playing a collision sport increases the chances of brain injury.  The questions are (a) is the risk of playing football significantly higher than it was in the past and (b) what are the odds that playing football will cause severe or permanent brain injury?

I don't think the answers to those questions are clear cut.

Why did Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, and Steve Young retire from football?  Numerous concussions.  Staubach is now in his 70s.  Have you heard him speak lately? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awTEja8JD8o&feature=player_embedded

Aikman and Young currently make their livings as TV personalities.  Aikman is close to 50 and Young is well into his 50s.  I can't tell that they demonstrate effects of debilitating brain injury.

Will some former NFL players suffer a severe loss of brain function?  Of course they will.  So will some former couch potatoes.  It happens to people in all walks of life whether they are repeatedly hit on the head or not.  Some former NFL players will also develop cancer.  That doesn't mean football caused it.

I've seen some lame arguments, but this one is right there at the top.  I really want to believe you're joking and pulling chains just for your own entertainment.  You've pulled out three QB's in your example here.  Three.  That's like one of those 92 year old smokers sitting on their porch trying to convince everyone that smoking doesn't hurt you because he's living proof.  You can always find some people who beat the odds.  We're talking about a mountain of evidence regarding CTE. 

When did the argument change from new studies revealing the issue to your argument that it has always been dangerous?  Those are two completely separate subjects.  Yes...it has always been dangerous, but the fact is, it hasn't been brought to light until recently when MRI and other technology has been able to scientifically illustrate it. 

If you want to make a valid argument, it would be that the rate of mental decay in the general population represents at least a portion of what we see in the NFL.  To say that it's all from football is probably not accurate, and some of the athletes probably would have had some mental issues had they never played football.  BUT...to argue that there's not a HIGHER incidence in ex NFL football players is simply hiding from the facts. 

The three ex QB's that you referenced quit because of concussions, but if you're trying to say they sustained anywhere near the repeated head trauma from collective hits that Seau or many other impact collision players have, then that's just silly.  The repeated incidence of smaller trauma over time is different than one incident of blunt trauma, and studies have shown that. 

Hey...football is dangerous, and we all know that.  So are a LOT of things in life, and yet people choose to do them anyway.  I just don't understand why you're attempting to insinuate that everyone is overly paranoid about it.  That would be like saying there are plenty of smoker out there who don't die form lung cancer before age 60, so all of the studies that have been done are wrong.  It doesn't hold up to basic science.   

[EastexHawg]

I've seen some lame arguments, but this one is right there at the top.  I really want to believe you're joking and pulling chains just for your own entertainment.  You've pulled out three QB's in your example here.  Three.  That's like one of those 92 year old smokers sitting on their porch trying to convince everyone that smoking doesn't hurt you because he's living proof.  You can always find some people who beat the odds.  We're talking about a mountain of evidence regarding CTE. 

My argument is lame because I used three examples, and there is a "mountain of evidence" regarding CTE?

Really?

In the first place, I can name a hundred players who spent years in the NFL...after high school and college careers...who are still alive and coherent.  Do you really want me to start a list?

Speaking of lists, how about if you provide one yourself.  How many players have been diagnosed with CTE?  It should be easy to tick off hundreds of them, considering you have a "mountain of evidence". 

Next question...how many men in this country have played football during their lives?  Take your CTE list that you just compiled, divide it by that number, and give us a percentage.

NO ONE is saying football is not potentially dangerous.  I said it in my "lame argument" post.  NO ONE is saying that anyone should be forced to play football for any reason.  I said that in a prior post in this thread.  What I am saying is that the incidence of life altering...or life ending...severe brain injury does not match the hype.

As for whether there is a proven link between playing football and CTE, I'm not the one who said it hasn't been definitely documented and established.  The neurologists and other doctors who took part in the international conference on concussions and head trauma said it.  If you have an issue with their statement, take it up with them.  I'm sure your expertise and credentials in the field will dwarf theirs.

http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Fulltext/2013/03000/Consensus_Statement_on_Concussion_in_Sport_the_4th.1.aspx

[hogsanity]

My argument is lame because I used three examples, and there is a "mountain of evidence" regarding CTE?

Really?

In the first place, I can name a hundred players who spent years in the NFL...after high school and college careers...who are still alive and coherent.  Do you really want me to start a list?

Speaking of lists, how about if you provide one yourself.  How many players have been diagnosed with CTE?  It should be easy to tick off hundreds of them, considering you have a "mountain of evidence". 

Next question...how many men in this country have played football during their lives?  Take your CTE list that you just compiled, divide it by that number, and give us a percentage.

NO ONE is saying football is not potentially dangerous.  I said it in my "lame argument" post.  NO ONE is saying that anyone should be forced to play football for any reason.  I said that in a prior post in this thread.  What I am saying is that the incidence of life altering...or life ending...severe brain injury does not match the hype.

As for whether there is a proven link between playing football and CTE, I'm not the one who said it hasn't been definitely documented and established.  The neurologists and other doctors who took part in the international conference on concussions and head trauma said it.  If you have an issue with their statement, take it up with them.  I'm sure your expertise and credentials in the field will dwarf theirs.

http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Fulltext/2013/03000/Consensus_Statement_on_Concussion_in_Sport_the_4th.1.aspx

The question is not " Is football potentially dangerous" I think everyone agrees it is. What I think scares some people, and makes them very defensive, is the idea that new medical findings may cause a drop off in participation, and may cause a change to the rules. I go back to how coaches used to not let players drink water during practice, now that would be unthinkable. When it first started to change, I am sure many people were all " Back when I played we weren't namby pamby gotta have water every 20 minutes, we were tough! ".

Times change, technology gets better, medical testing gets better and can find more things.  More evidence is being found to point to small repeated head injuries being just as, if not more dangerous, than having one or two major concussions in your life. If that makes people reconsider playing football, so what.

[EastexHawg]

The question is not " Is football potentially dangerous" I think everyone agrees it is. What I think scares some people, and makes them very defensive, is the idea that new medical findings may cause a drop off in participation, and may cause a change to the rules. I go back to how coaches used to not let players drink water during practice, now that would be unthinkable. When it first started to change, I am sure many people were all " Back when I played we weren't namby pamby gotta have water every 20 minutes, we were tough! ".

Times change, technology gets better, medical testing gets better and can find more things.  More evidence is being found to point to small repeated head injuries being just as, if not more dangerous, than having one or two major concussions in your life. If that makes people reconsider playing football, so what.

I don't disagree with any of that.  On the other hand, if other people consider and decide to play football anyway, so what?

Life is full of risks.  Every time I ride a rollercoaster I know there is a chance it may jump the track and kill me.  Every time I fly I realize there is a chance the plane may crash and kill me.  Driving.  Boating.  Hunting.

I typically decide the risk of something catastrophic happening to me is low enough that I am willing to engage in the activity anyway.

Tens of thousands of men have played football.  How many have been diagnosed with crippling or fatal brain disease?  How many men out of a population of 30,000 might be expected to suffer from crippling or fatal brain disease if they hadn't played football?

I guess the question for each player or parent is...what is your own personal threshold for risk?  That question can be asked and answered without pretending that the odds of catastrophic brain injury from football are higher than they actually are.

[DeltaBoy]

The kid is playing it SMART in my book.

[Rocky Mountain Living]

 This will soon be a game being played by the have-nots...

DB Armani Reeves (Ohio St) quits due to brain trauma concerns after suffering from 4 concussions in 3.5 years.

After being shown video footage of a couple of former football stars Kevin Turner and Steve Smith and their current state of health, Reeves decided it would be in his best interest to retire from the sport of football, which he did earlier this spring.

www.collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/02/report-ohio-states-armani-reeves-suffered-four-concussions-during-2014-season/



Video that made Armani hangup his cleats...Former FB Kevin Turner
www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/sports/former-nfl-player-fights-als/2014/12/15/db36f1a4-849c-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_video.html

PS.  Benny...you rock...thx for your time.  I enjoyed your posts

[hogsanity]

I don't disagree with any of that.  On the other hand, if other people consider and decide to play football anyway, so what?

Life is full of risks.  Every time I ride a rollercoaster I know there is a chance it may jump the track and kill me.  Every time I fly I realize there is a chance the plane may crash and kill me.  Driving.  Boating.  Hunting.

I typically decide the risk of something catastrophic happening to me is low enough that I am willing to engage in the activity anyway.

Tens of thousands of men have played football.  How many have been diagnosed with crippling or fatal brain disease?  How many men out of a population of 30,000 might be expected to suffer from crippling or fatal brain disease if they hadn't played football?

I guess the question for each player or parent is...what is your own personal threshold for risk?  That question can be asked and answered without pretending that the odds of catastrophic brain injury from football are higher than they actually are.

I do not care if someone chooses to play football or not. I have 2 sons. one chose to try it, played a while, did not really like it, so he moved on, and I am fine with that. The other, much bigger than his brother at the same age, does not even want to play football. He plays baseball and basketball, and I am fine with that too.

I do not have much personal experience with head injuries. The hardest I've ever been hit in the head, I remember like it was yesterday ( collided with a team mate head to head, then the back of my head slammed the court had two huge knots on my head one in front one in back ) although it was 30 years ago. Last year, I took a foul ball off my helmet while umpiring, and I do not remember one pitch of that game. 

[EastexHawg]

I have been knocked completely unconscious four times that I can recall.  None of them took place in an organized football game, although one of them was while playing sandlot football.  One was from jumping a bicycle on a ramp, one from being knocked into the edge of an open door, the other from a fistfight.  I got my bell rung really good one time on a punt return but I never went to the ground or lost consciousness...just saw a flash of blue light.

I wish none of those injuries had ever happened, but I don't wish I had withdrawn from life...from being a boy/young man who played hard...to protect myself.

[hogsanity]

I have been knocked completely unconscious four times that I can recall.  None of them took place in an organized football game, although one of them was while playing sandlot football.  One was from jumping a bicycle on a ramp, one from being knocked into the edge of an open door, the other from a fistfight.  I got my bell rung really good one time on a punt return but I never went to the ground or lost consciousness...just saw a flash of blue light.

I wish none of those injuries had ever happened, but I don't wish I had withdrawn from life...from being a boy/young man who played hard...to protect myself.

I do not consider these guys giving up football as withdrawing from life.  That is my burr on this, that somehow these guys, or anyone that would give up the game or choose not to start it, is not tough. Sometimes knowing when to quit something and then doing so is a lot tougher than just going on even though you know it is not best for you.

[EastexHawg]

I do not consider these guys giving up football as withdrawing from life. 

Again...that's not what I said.  I just listed four definite concussions and said none of them occurred while playing organized football.  My "withdrawing from life" comment referred to deciding...or having my parents decide...that I was going to conduct my life with my primary focus being on "staying safe".

If guys want to quit football, or not play it in the first place, that's a perfectly reasonable decision for them to make.  If parents want to design their child rearing around protecting their boys from all potential risks, that's their right.  I hate to see it, but I realize it's their call with their own kids.

[bennyl08]

Again...that's not what I said.  I just listed four definite concussions and said none of them occurred while playing organized football.  My "withdrawing from life" comment referred to deciding...or having my parents decide...that I was going to conduct my life with my primary focus being on "staying safe".

If guys want to quit football, or not play it in the first place, that's a perfectly reasonable decision for them to make.  If parents want to design their child rearing around protecting their boys from all potential risks, that's their right.  I hate to see it, but I realize it's their call with their own kids.

I grew up with a pretty over protective mother, but eventually a person will be who they will be. Admittedly, I'm going to stay away from trying to free climb El Capitán or going into professional boxing or the marines. However, I'll still climb to the top of mountains, spend a week in the woods, play racquetball etc... That said, I do really want to go cave diving sometime, which is arguably the deadliest sport known to mankind (free climbing being the arguable other).

[EastexHawg]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/794374-10-unfortunate-deaths-in-the-ring-within-the-last-10-years

Interesting...check out the weight classes involved.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I do not consider these guys giving up football as withdrawing from life.  That is my burr on this, that somehow these guys, or anyone that would give up the game or choose not to start it, is not tough. Sometimes knowing when to quit something and then doing so is a lot tougher than just going on even though you know it is not best for you.

Getting back to the original topic (we have strayed a long way from that), the kid at Michigan had already proven himself to be tough enough to not only play, but start for a major P-5 team and play at a very high level. This isn't at all about the kid not being tough enough. It is just about a very personal, quality decision that he made for his own life and that is all. For that, he should not be demeaned or otherwise looked down upon.

[urkillnmesmalls]

Again...that's not what I said.  I just listed four definite concussions and said none of them occurred while playing organized football.  My "withdrawing from life" comment referred to deciding...or having my parents decide...that I was going to conduct my life with my primary focus being on "staying safe".

If guys want to quit football, or not play it in the first place, that's a perfectly reasonable decision for them to make.  If parents want to design their child rearing around protecting their boys from all potential risks, that's their right.  I hate to see it, but I realize it's their call with their own kids.

East, your argument is all over the place.  This thread started with MAJOR CFB D1 or NFL players choosing to walk away from the game from fear of the long term effects of repeated head trauma.  The study you referenced above does what ANY good study that can't actually measure something definitively has to do, acknowledge that saying 100% that football caused their mental issues is impossible.  But, seeing more and more partially incoherent ex football players coming forward, and the incidence being MUCH more common than the general population certainly points strongly in that direction.  It took YEARS of data to prove a link between smoking and lung and other types of cancer, and for a long time it was actually believed that it might be good for you.   

Now, you've changed to arguing about parents preventing their children from playing.  ?   I rode motocross growing up, and I can assure you it was far more dangerous than my years playing football.  My parents didn't prevent me from doing anything I was determined to do, and they felt I had the skill to do. 

But knowing what I know now, I'm not sure if I would have played football past the 9th grade.  That's the year I got a bad concussion on kick off coverage, and felt the effects for days afterward.  It was obvious I didn't have the size to play football at any higher level, and if there had been coverage of multiple ex-players trying to speak intelligently, and the studies discussing CTE, then at least I would have been informed. 

Despite that, my risk of paralysis, concussion, and being permanently maimed was still much higher with racing motorcross, but I CHOSE to do it.  I knew it could happen. 

But at that time, no one had any idea that repeated smaller hits could cause permanent damage.  Now we know there is an apparent link, and as a result some people are choosing not to be exposed to that risk. 

It has nothing to do with being a wuss, or not being tough.  It has to do with life choices.   

[urkillnmesmalls]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/794374-10-unfortunate-deaths-in-the-ring-within-the-last-10-years

Interesting...check out the weight classes involved.

I'm curious.  What are you suggesting that the weight class indicates? 

The argument is that repeated concussions, or the repeated smaller trauma, can add up to horrible long term mental issues.  In many boxing deaths, it's the repeated blows, which is why a lot of them occur in the lower weight classes.  They absorb a higher number of punches on average, and it's the cumulative effect. 

It's also why the argument is being made that MMA is not as dangerous with regard to head trauma as boxing, because rarely do you see someone take nearly as many blows prior to a knockout or stoppage.  I wouldn't be surprised to see that be wrong over time, but for now...it's one of the arguments being made.  But again, there's not a lot of evidence at this point. 

I'm sure over time, they will start to discover certain tendencies for some people to be more susceptible than others, and maybe they will be able to determine a better baseline and monitor changes more effectively so people know when it's time to stop.  For now, I'm confident you will see parents steer their kids toward other sports, but I'm not hearing of parents preventing their children from playing football.   

[EastexHawg]

I'm curious.  What are you suggesting that the weight class indicates? 

Earlier in this thread I said I don't necessarily believe the argument that football is much more dangerous today because of the size of the players.  The logic?  Because they are all bigger.

I went on to say that two smaller men can inflict serious damage on each other just as two larger men can...that size is relative.  For that I got a lot of ridicule.  One know it all explained to me that my statement was laughable...using the alleged "fact" that heavyweights inflict much more damage on each other than the lower weight classes because smaller fighters lack the power to hurt each other.  He even quoted me in his sig line.

Given that backdrop, I think the point of my link is obvious.

[bennyl08]

Earlier in this thread I said I don't necessarily believe the argument that football is much more dangerous today because of the size of the players.  The logic?  Because they are all bigger.

I went on to say that two smaller men can inflict serious damage on each other just as two larger men can...that size is relative.  For that I got a lot of ridicule.  One know it all explained to me that my statement was laughable...using the alleged "fact" that heavyweights inflict much more damage on each other than the lower weight classes because smaller fighters lack the power to hurt each other.  He even quoted me in his sig line.

Given that backdrop, I think the point of my link is obvious.

I didn't use any alleged facts. I used well documented facts looking at the % of fights won by knockouts with the different weight classes to dispute your claim that growth of muscles in the head and neck exactly counter the growth of strength in the rest of the body. That is what you were ridiculed for. Don't try and change your argument to make it more sympathetic after the fact. I never argued smaller fighters lack the power to hurt each other. I argued against the post of yours I decided to quote. That being bigger inherently protects your head more. Own what you said, admit you were wrong, and stop trying to move to goalposts.

[WarPig88]

LOL at the person acting as if the HUNH is to blame for football concussions!

Concussions were raised as a serious issue by a generation of football players who NEVER played against or in a HUNH system.

SMH

[Rocky Mountain Living]

I don't necessarily believe the argument that football is much more dangerous today because of the size of the players. 

This is essentially common knowledge but further confirmed based on statistics and Physics:

Smaller guys have less Force (Power).

No stopping a troll/keyboard warrior intent on trying to type "I gotcha"

[EastexHawg]

This is essentially common knowledge but further confirmed based on statistics and Physics:

Smaller guys have less Force (Power).

No stopping a troll/keyboard warrior intent on trying to type "I gotcha"

I'm sure the 10 dead boxers from the link agree with you wholeheartedly.  They're undoubtedly less dead because the guys beating them only weighed 110-150 pounds.  I bet if you examined their brains they would appear pristine.

Of course smaller men have (on average) less power.  But...they are also hitting other smaller men.  That's the part that you don't seem to get, or don't want to acknowledge.  A BB will kill a mockingbird, but an elephant won't even feel it.

I get it.  Some of you are insistent that football today is exponentially more dangerous than it's ever been because the players are bigger.  No statements from neurologists/doctors that to date no clear connection between football and CTE has been established, and no presentation of facts showing that two flyweights, welterweights, or middleweights pounding each other can cause enough brain damage to result in death can affect your opinion whatsoever.  You know what you want to believe and you are going to believe it.

Wonderful.  Carry on.

[hogsanity]

This whole debate reminds me so much of the one we had a few years ago when a couple of kids dies from heat stroke during " 2-a-days ". Some see no real need for that anymore, no need to practice twice a day when it is over 100, or to practice in the hot parts of the day at all. Others see it as a test, a way to weed out the weak links.

Bottom line, football is a rough dangerous sport, but there is room for common sense in decisions about health and safety.

[Rocky Mountain Living]

Of course smaller men have (on average) less power.  But...they are also hitting other smaller men.  That's the part that you don't seem to get, or don't want to acknowledge. 

Let's try a different approach? 


F= MA.  See my earlier posts.  Benny already explained this to you.  I did too.  I will try again, but you are full of illogical nonsense.



The muscles in the legs, arms, and back are not helping the brain stay put?   Yes?

What matters is the Force of the brain impacting the skull.


BUT, the muscles in the legs, arms, and back are amplifying the force exerted on the brain!


Let's examine what is happening to the brain of a 150 lb vs 250 lb human when the brain impacts the skull so hard the human has a knock down concussion (100 g-forces):


Average brain of a human who weighs 150lbs is 3 lbs. 

Average brain of a human who weighs 250lbs is 3lbs too.

The difference in lbs-force needed for a concussion (100 g-forces) between a 150 lb and 250lb human is zero. 


Why? because their brains are the same size!

[Kicking Wing]

What's the difference? Smashmouth football makes you less susceptible to permanent damage?  I'm not even a fan of HUNH, just don't see your point

Heard a guy on the radio a while back say that the HUNH is actually less risky in terms of concussion risks.  It is the close contact, repetitive head strikes that linemen and linebackers suffer that lead to the most frequent serious damage.  It is similar to the damage suffered by boxers. 

The solution is to rotate more players on the interior of the playing field and to change the rules to decrease the number of strikes to the heads of linemen and linebackers.

There is no data that supports the theory that the HUNH causes more injuries.  A couple of players who played in the slowest paced football league in the nation deciding to retire is not supporting data.

[Kicking Wing]

LOL at the person acting as if the HUNH is to blame for football concussions!

Concussions were raised as a serious issue by a generation of football players who NEVER played against or in a HUNH system.

SMH

Truth.

[Karma]

I have been knocked completely unconscious four times that I can recall. 

This explains this whole thread.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

The kid is playing it SMART in my book.

Why don't we just agree on, ''Smart for what he believes is best for right now''.  It will be interesting to see if he feels the same way later, when he almost assuredly will have graduated and went on to a mundane job of some sort.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Double Post.

[EastexHawg]

Let's try a different approach? 


F= MA.  See my earlier posts.  Benny already explained this to you.  I did too.  I will try again, but you are full of illogical nonsense.



The muscles in the legs, arms, and back are not helping the brain stay put?   Yes?

What matters is the Force of the brain impacting the skull.


BUT, the muscles in the legs, arms, and back are amplifying the force exerted on the brain!


Let's examine what is happening to the brain of a 150 lb vs 250 lb human when the brain impacts the skull so hard the human has a knock down concussion (100 g-forces):


Average brain of a human who weighs 150lbs is 3 lbs. 

Average brain of a human who weighs 250lbs is 3lbs too.

The difference in lbs-force needed for a concussion (100 g-forces) between a 150 lb and 250lb human is zero. 


Why? because their brains are the same size!

One 150 pound man is in a Ford Fiesta that gets hit by a Lexus.  The other is in a Suburban.

Which 150 pounder do you want to be?

[urkillnmesmalls]

One 150 pound man is in a Ford Fiesta that gets hit by a Lexus.  The other is in a Suburban.

Which 150 pounder do you want to be?

East, while I applaud your efforts to suggest that football today is no more dangerous than it was 20 years ago when the average player size was smaller, the argument you're making is apples to oranges. 

You've chosen to ignore the studies on CTE, which is your prerogative.  But, you're arguing semantics, because while the tests are inconclusive with regard to proving the individuals' issues were caused solely by repeated football collisions, there is no arguing the link between CTE and that activity. 

Right from the start, you've chosen to ignore that, and to ignore F=MA.  You even went so far as to make the point against yourself without realizing it, by saying that in boxing, many of the deaths occur in the lower weight classes.  IMO boxing is completely different than football, but if that's the argument you're choosing to correlate, then what you just did is clearly show that the accumulation of punches is likely WORSE than one big knock out punch.  That actually SUPPORTS the theory of CTE, regardless of the size of the individual.

Your argument about a big guy hitting a little guy...very flawed.  The TOTAL force on both players' brains would still be higher if both of them weighed 300 lbs if both hit each other moving the same speed as a 300 lb player hitting a 150 lb player.  I'm not sure how you're missing that.  We're talking about the force on the brain inside the skull to want to continue in motion, or stay stationary, but it is affected by an outside force.  That's basic physics and there's no argument to be made.  It's a LAW.  F=MA for player 1.  F=MA for player 2.  Plug 300 lbs for both individuals.  Now plug in 150 lbs for both individuals.  Which way of working the two equations has the higher total force?

You can continue that argument, and try to suggest that the risk of brain trauma isn't any higher with a combined total weight on the field of 2,500 lbs versus 2,000 lbs from yesteryear, but you're going to have to defy physics to do it.  We're not talking about the risk of the 150 lbs players getting injured being greater.  We're talking about force on the brain, and I think you're missing that point.     

Hogsanity made the perfect post.  Exposing people to heat stroke risk for the sake of "weeding out the whimps" who need to stop for a water break and rest for a minute or two to get cool off has turned out to be a medical liability that should have ended DECADES ago.  Sure, you could argue that there's nothing conclusive to say that heat stroke and other conditions were solely attributed to football practice in 100* heat, but there's definitely a pretty obvious correlation.  If you want to really IGNORE the situation, you can pull out statistics that show that the same thing happens to random kids riding their bikes in the summer, but that's not the point.

You're trying to say that concussions aren't any more prominent now than they were in the past.  How can you make that argument?  On one hand, you're saying CTE doesn't exist, but then on the other you're saying concussion occurrence remain the same.  Really?  How do you know?  Couldn't a BIG part of that be because it wasn't known then how dangerous it was, and players got back out there when they shouldn't have, and received multiple concussions due to not resting their brains? 

That's the WHOLE point.  In the past, it was ignored as being a major health concern.  Now that we have long term data, and ex-players who are suffering from cognitive issues, it's something that is affecting how people view the sport. 

Your attempt to "wash all of that away" by suggesting "it's always been a dangerous sport" is just a conscious decision to ignore both data, and physics. 

I don't see any point in arguing this further, because your argument is so flawed that you're ignoring some very basic physics principles.  If you want to continue the argument, then your next post should be to explain to the board how F=MA isn't real, because that's what you've basically tried to say.   

[urkillnmesmalls]

One 150 pound man is in a Ford Fiesta that gets hit by a Lexus.  The other is in a Suburban.

Which 150 pounder do you want to be?

TOTALLY different argument.  It's not about the ability to absorb force.  You're going in circles man.  There's only a finite amount of "cushion" inside your skull, so your example doesn't have any bearing on what we're discussing.  It's not about absorbing the impact.  No one has a "suburban" in their head. 

[Peter Porker]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/794374-10-unfortunate-deaths-in-the-ring-within-the-last-10-years

Interesting...check out the weight classes involved.

You just made a great argument for Coach Bielema. Thanks.

[EastexHawg]

TOTALLY different argument.  It's not about the ability to absorb force.  You're going in circles man.  There's only a finite amount of "cushion" inside your skull, so your example doesn't have any bearing on what we're discussing.  It's not about absorbing the impact. 

So it's your opinion that Mike Tyson punching Manny Pacquiao in the head would have no greater effect on him than if he had punched Andre the Giant in the head?

Really?

[hogsanity]

So it's your opinion that Mike Tyson punching Manny Pacquiao in the head would have no greater effect on him than if he had punched Andre the Giant in the head?

Really?

Is he punching him just once? 

The head trauma that most are citing now is from the REPEATED small collisions that no one really used to think twice about. It is the center butting heads with the NT 40 times a game. Every time they but heads, their brains are sloshing around inside their skulls. 

No one, at least I did not take it that way, is suggesting that a big hit delivered by a 250lb linebacker on a 180 lb wr is the same as if that hit is delivered by a 180 cb.

[EastexHawg]

No one, at least I did not take it that way, is suggesting that a big hit delivered by a 250lb linebacker on a 180 lb wr is the same as if that hit is delivered by a 180 cb.

No, but they are saying that there is no difference between the effect of a big hit by a 250 lb linebacker on a 250 pound running back as compared to a big hit by a 250 pound linebacker on a 170 pound running back.

All I keep seeing is "F=M x A" as if they have just discovered some great scientific principle.  What they are failing to consider, however, is the size of the object on which the force is being exerted and how that relative size might impact the effect.

At a distance of 50 yards, a 38 grain .22 Long Rifle bullet will deliver 109 foot pounds of energy into its target.  If you hit a mouse directly with that cartridge you will scramble its insides, blow it apart, and kill it.

If, however, you deliver the same 109 foot pounds of energy from your .22 LR into a grizzly bear...you better not be where he realizes you shot him and where he can get to you.

Is the difference in size between "older" players and today's players comparable to the difference between a mouse and a grizzly?  No, of course it's not.  All I am saying is that at every arbitrary point along the continuum from really, really small to really, enormously huge the effect of the application of F=M x A is going to be different.  It will be more pronounced the smaller the recipient...and less pronounced the larger the target on which it is applied.

No one's brain travels around exposed, outside its owner's skull and all by itself...at least no one that I know.  The force is not being applied directly to the brain itself...but I think we all know that. 

[bennyl08]

No one, at least I did not take it that way, is suggesting that a big hit delivered by a 250lb linebacker on a 180 lb wr is the same as if that hit is delivered by a 180 cb.

It depends on where that hit is delivered. Eastex's arguments are great for a rigid body. I.e. if a 250 LB hits a 180 pound WR in the torso, that is going to be a lot more damage than if a 180 pound CB hits the same WR in the torso. However, if a 250 LB hits a 180 pound WR in the head, and hits a 250 pound TE in the head, the damage to the head is going to be nearly equal. The 250 pound TE's head is not able to withstand a blow appreciably more than the 180 pound WR's.

A good example of this is with boxer's. If a 200 boxer's head was able to withstand more damage than a 130 pound boxer, vs their respective opponents, one would expect to see a similar rate of knockouts. Instead, there is a strong increase in % of knockouts with increasing weight class. Ergo, the force gained by the rest of the body outpaces the ability to withstand that force in the head. Now, smaller fighters have higher stamina and statistically throw and land a lot more punches, and also because a higher percentage of fights end in decision, they fight more rounds. So, a heavy weight is going to experience more damage to the head per punch, but will experience much fewer punches. A lighter weight is less likely to experience a punch that will knock him/her out but will receive a higher number of smaller force punches.