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The game of FB has changed! Those late to the show get fired!

Started by Hogwarrior, November 18, 2017, 06:14:48 pm

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Hogwarrior

I know some of you won't appreciate this post because you refuse to let go of the nostalgia of the past.  Football reminds me of the transformation of music production.  Music went from reel to reel, to 8 tracks and wax, to cassettes, to CDs, and now streaming is the way to go.  Time changes things and it has done the same to the precious sport of football.

The Hog, soon to be former coach,
gambled on the past and lost.  The pro style offense is a relic, even in the NFL, but yet, he chose to challenge the direction of the game.  He lost!

I know it will hurt a lot of the old school folks feelings, but the days of 14-6 or 6-3 National Championship games are over!  Bama lost to a Clemson team that ran 90 plays (or somewhere close) and lost their crown.  They didn't have enough O to beat Clemson.  I will go out on a limb and say the team with the best O will win it all this season too.

The game has changed from Pop Warner, to JR. High, to Sr High, to 7 on 7 and then to college.  It's a game of speed and specialized offensive players.  Now, will Tom Brady win the SB again this season?  Probably but it's more due to a genius coach and the last standing old school QB than it is to style!

The old saying was D wins championships.  Today it's more about a potent O with a D that can make a stop in a critical situation.   O wins championships today!  Clemson's D made plays against Bama, but did they really stop them or just made the timely play?  The Pats won the SB but was it really the D that delivered it?  The O put the D in a situation to make one stop!

The game has changed folks!  The Hogs will hire a transcendent coach who is using players in the way they have played all their lives rather than a slow developing, trudging, pro style O!  That Strategy is dead and will never return!  You won't win consistently hoping you can keep a potent O off the field because they are going to score when they are on the field!  You don't believe me?  I'll provide you one link that defines how the game is played today to support my post.  Good luck finding one that disputes it! 

It's a new day at UA and hopefully the new coach has a great offensive mind!  That's what it's going to take to play big boy football!

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2017/6/29/15824578/pro-style-vs-college-style-offense-that-is-the-question-alabama-michigan-spread

JOKERHOG

Quote from: Hogwarrior on November 18, 2017, 06:14:48 pm
I know some of you won't appreciate this post because you refuse to let go of the nostalgia of the past.  Football reminds me of the transformation of music production.  Music went from reel to reel, to 8 tracks and wax, to cassettes, to CDs, and now streaming is the way to go.  Time changes things and it has done the same to the precious sport of football.

The Hog, soon to be former coach,
gambled on the past and lost.  The pro style offense is a relic, even in the NFL, but yet, he chose to challenge the direction of the game.  He lost!

I know it will hurt a lot of the old school folks feelings, but the days of 14-6 or 6-3 National Championship games are over!  Bama lost to a Clemson team that ran 90 plays (or somewhere close) and lost their crown.  They didn't have enough O to beat Clemson.  I will go out on a limb and say the team with the best O will win it all this season too.

The game has changed from Pop Warner, to JR. High, to Sr High, to 7 on 7 and then to college.  It's a game of speed and specialized offensive players.  Now, will Tom Brady win the SB again this season?  Probably but it's more due to a genius coach and the last standing old school QB than it is to style!

The old saying was D wins championships.  Today it's more about a potent O with a D that can make a stop in a critical situation.   O wins championships today!  Clemson's D made plays against Bama, but did they really stop them or just made the timely play?  The Pats won the SB but was it really the D that delivered it?  The O put the D in a situation to make one stop!

The game has changed folks!  The Hogs will hire a transcendent coach who is using players in the way they have played all their lives rather than a slow developing, trudging, pro style O!  That Strategy is dead and will never return!  You won't win consistently hoping you can keep a potent O off the field because they are going to score when they are on the field!  You don't believe me?  I'll provide you one link that defines how the game is played today to support my post.  Good luck finding one that disputes it! 

It's a new day at UA and hopefully the new coach has a great offensive mind!  That's what it's going to take to play big boy football!

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2017/6/29/15824578/pro-style-vs-college-style-offense-that-is-the-question-alabama-michigan-spread

BB is a football dinosaur.  HV posters didn't like hearing it but turned out to be true.  Horrible hire
BRINGING BALANCE AND PERSPECTIVE TO HOGVILLE

"You're too damn illiterate to have a college education.  And I'm serious"  - Hawgar the Horrible 1/19/2017

5 most hated: 1Auburn 2Auburn 3Auburn 4A&M 5OU

 

hogsanity

No style is going to work if the talent level does not improve DRAMATICALLY on both sides of the ball.  Marginal talent overall and no depth at all is going to result in lots of losses in the sec.

But yea lets go get a guy that thinks he can win every game 66-54, that will work great in the sec.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Hogwarrior

Quote from: hogsanity on November 18, 2017, 10:29:49 pm
No style is going to work if the talent level does not improve DRAMATICALLY on both sides of the ball.  Marginal talent overall and no depth at all is going to result in lots of losses in the sec.

But yea lets go get a guy that thinks he can win every game 66-54, that will work great in the sec.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.  How many teams in the SEC run the old pro-style offense?  The myth about the spread is that it's a throw the ball around the park O.  There are many variations of it, which a lot still have 1000 yd rushers.  I sense you won't be a happy camper next season.

MuskogeeHogFan

November 19, 2017, 07:22:48 am #4 Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 07:44:27 am by MuskogeeHogFan
Quote from: Hogwarrior on November 19, 2017, 06:29:12 am
Hey, don't shoot the messenger.  How many teams in the SEC run the old pro-style offense?  The myth about the spread is that it's a throw the ball around the park O.  There are many variations of it, which a lot still have 1000 yd rushers.  I sense you won't be a happy camper next season.

HC's are still getting fired every year, even the ones that run a variation of the Spread. What sets teams apart regardless of the offense or defense that they utilize is the level of talent that they possess and then how that talent is developed and used by the coaching staffs. And, the quality of the coaching staff plays a role as well along with the overall quality of oversight and guidance by the HC.

Now all of that said, the Pro Style will work at any level but it requires supremely talented players at all positions on both sides of the ball and in in terms of the two deep as well. Some schools could get away with running that style of offense because of their talent levels on offense and defense, but there aren't many. Some schools have strong enough recruiting that they can recruit highly rated talent 2-3 deep and so they have the time to convert kids who have been running the Spread in HS to running a Pro Style. Again, you can't ignore the value of a great defense stocked with deep talent and there isn't as much of a transition there.

So yes, we have witnessed a transition to the Spread just as we saw a transition to the Veer Option/Triple Option decades ago. At the time the Triple Option seemed unstoppable because it stressed defenses by forcing them to play assignment football and keep their eyes in the right place. It was mostly a running offense but when passes were completed they were usually for bigger yards per catch because defenses were sold out to stop the run. Still, it required disciplined defense playing assignment football to effectively defend it. Sound familiar?

And because HS's all over the country are already teaching the Spread, college teams don't have to spend so much time transitioning players from one style of offense to another.

So yes, we will likely see a HC hired who embraces some form of the Spread and the good news is that most of the players that we have on offense, played in some form of the Spread in HS. So for most of our offensive players, it should be like slipping on your old comfortable shoes that you haven't worn in a while. We will however, need at least one (if not two) pretty good Dual Threat QB to make it really successful.

And believe it or not, most Hog fans, regardless of age, could care less what offense the Hogs run as long as they play respectably, don't get blown out and win a little more often than we have over the last 5 seasons.
Go Hogs Go!

Cure

Bielema didn't change? Brandon Allen threw the ball damn near 50 times in a game before.
Team Economics
From Keynes to Friedman, we know what's up.

HornetHog

Hold on, not so fast,..... In the NFL as well...?   Tell Tom Brady that.
Pro style Quarterbacks are just harder to fine today, based on its so much easier for a Youth, HS and College coach to put a quick, fast RB athlete back there to make the first guy miss and move the chains.  I think in this climate, you'll start to see the True Pro Style pocket passer emerge and we'll all be in Awe when they do.  When really, its simply a QB who doesn't get rattled and keeps his eyes downfield to the 2nd and 3rd receiver. Spread or a mix of a power run look doesn't really matter,...its all about the QB we recruit and the QB Coach we have on the hill.  IMO
Former Hog QB / National Private QB Coach QBFarm.com / Varsity HS Football Coach / Hog Fan since birth

elksnort

The pro style did not work primarily because the offensive line was not good enough. The offense in 2015 was mighty good.
See, I said what I wanted to say without typing out an essay.

Grunt

Quote from: hogsanity on November 18, 2017, 10:29:49 pm
No style is going to work if the talent level does not improve DRAMATICALLY on both sides of the ball.  Marginal talent overall and no depth at all is going to result in lots of losses in the sec.

But yea lets go get a guy that thinks he can win every game 66-54, that will work great in the sec.
Up the signing bonuses.
The above is likely to be highly biased and may not be defensible.

wildhogman

Quote from: Hogwarrior on November 18, 2017, 06:14:48 pm
I know some of you won’t appreciate this post because you refuse to let go of the nostalgia of the past.  Football reminds me of the transformation of music production.  Music went from reel to reel, to 8 tracks and wax, to cassettes, to CDs, and now streaming is the way to go.  Time changes things and it has done the same to the precious sport of football.

The Hog, soon to be former coach,
gambled on the past and lost.  The pro style offense is a relic, even in the NFL, but yet, he chose to challenge the direction of the game.  He lost!

I know it will hurt a lot of the old school folks feelings, but the days of 14-6 or 6-3 National Championship games are over!  Bama lost to a Clemson team that ran 90 plays (or somewhere close) and lost their crown.  They didn’t have enough O to beat Clemson.  I will go out on a limb and say the team with the best O will win it all this season too.

The game has changed from Pop Warner, to JR. High, to Sr High, to 7 on 7 and then to college.  It’s a game of speed and specialized offensive players.  Now, will Tom Brady win the SB again this season?  Probably but it’s more due to a genius coach and the last standing old school QB than it is to style!

The old saying was D wins championships.  Today it’s more about a potent O with a D that can make a stop in a critical situation.   O wins championships today!  Clemson’s D made plays against Bama, but did they really stop them or just made the timely play?  The Pats won the SB but was it really the D that delivered it?  The O put the D in a situation to make one stop!

The game has changed folks!  The Hogs will hire a transcendent coach who is using players in the way they have played all their lives rather than a slow developing, trudging, pro style O!  That Strategy is dead and will never return!  You won’t win consistently hoping you can keep a potent O off the field because they are going to score when they are on the field!  You don’t believe me?  I’ll provide you one link that defines how the game is played today to support my post.  Good luck finding one that disputes it! 

It’s a new day at UA and hopefully the new coach has a great offensive mind!  That’s what it’s going to take to play big boy football!

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2017/6/29/15824578/pro-style-vs-college-style-offense-that-is-the-question-alabama-michigan-spread
I know this isn't going to be popular response to your unpopular "football is changing". But, make the rules like they 20 years ago when a free safety put the fear of god into a crossing WR without worrying he might get called for targeting or something. Then get a FS or SS like Atwater and lets see how much teams throw the ball lol.  The game changed because rules changed favoring offense in a big way to protect the players. Remember the time we intercepted the ball and the other DB laid a block on the WR, called for and ejected "targeting".  Yet when the offense makes a good catch and another WR blindside blocks a DB,. no call at all, not even considered.  Why?  Targeting is targeting no matter what side you play on.  A DB turning to track down a WR who just made a catch is just as helpless as that WR was when the block comes from the blindside and he doesn't see it.  Rules changed to favor the offense in a big way because people think its cool to see basketball played at 100 yards with goal post

elksnort

Quote from: wildhogman on November 19, 2017, 07:51:31 am
I know this isn't going to be popular response to your unpopular "football is changing". But, make the rules like they 20 years ago when a free safety put the fear of god into a crossing WR without worrying he might get called for targeting or something. Then get a FS or SS like Atwater and lets see how much teams throw the ball lol.  The game changed because rules changed favoring offense in a big way to protect the players. Remember the time we intercepted the ball and the other DB laid a block on the WR, called for and ejected "targeting".  Yet when the offense makes a good catch and another WR blindside blocks a DB,. no call at all, not even considered.  Why?  Targeting is targeting no matter what side you play on.  A DB turning to track down a WR who just made a catch is just as helpless as that WR was when the block comes from the blindside and he doesn't see it.  Rules changed to favor the offense in a big way because people think its cool to see basketball played at 100 yards with goal post
Exactly, because the less sophisticated fan HAS to witness more offense and more scoring.

rickm1976

Quote from: hogsanity on November 18, 2017, 10:29:49 pm
No style is going to work if the talent level does not improve DRAMATICALLY on both sides of the ball.  Marginal talent overall and no depth at all is going to result in lots of losses in the sec.

But yea lets go get a guy that thinks he can win every game 66-54, that will work great in the sec.

Couldn't agree more.  We just don't have the horses, and probably never will like we did back in the SWC, when we were able to attract more recruits from Texas high schools.  The exception is the short time we had DMac, Felix, and Hillis, and Nutt squandered that talent.

Sundog

Agree completely with the OP.  The frustrating thing is many of us knew it 5 years ago and had to endure not only the (expected) results, but the justification by the dummies on this forum.  It took bringing the Razorback football program down to a smoking pile of shyte for the dummies and the powers that be to recognize the error.  Indeed, Bert Bueelema USED the Razorback football program as his PERSONAL "biotch"; experimenting, tweaking, to justify his antiquated philosophy.  Made a huge laughingstock out of the program, leading to the firing of the AD and him next.  GOODBYE BERT. It's been horrible watching your blunders. Oh, yea....woo pig. Throw the "A". Flip flop. Bee bop.

 

IronHog

Quote from: wildhogman on November 19, 2017, 07:51:31 am
I know this isn't going to be popular response to your unpopular "football is changing". But, make the rules like they 20 years ago when a free safety put the fear of god into a crossing WR without worrying he might get called for targeting or something. Then get a FS or SS like Atwater and lets see how much teams throw the ball lol.  The game changed because rules changed favoring offense in a big way to protect the players. Remember the time we intercepted the ball and the other DB laid a block on the WR, called for and ejected "targeting".  Yet when the offense makes a good catch and another WR blindside blocks a DB,. no call at all, not even considered.  Why?  Targeting is targeting no matter what side you play on.  A DB turning to track down a WR who just made a catch is just as helpless as that WR was when the block comes from the blindside and he doesn't see it.  Rules changed to favor the offense in a big way because people think its cool to see basketball played at 100 yards with goal post


That's the OPs point



UA can recruit good QBs and speed.



BP didn't get special recruits.....he coached up what he had and fed his studs.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Hawgzinbowlz

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on November 19, 2017, 07:22:48 am

...And believe it or not, most Hog fans, regardless of age, could care less what offense the Hogs run as long as they play respectably, don't get blown out and win a little more often than we have over the last 5 seasons.

Razorback Nation is weary of the coach speak that sounds like gold... and having it turn out to be fools gold.
It doesn't matter if it's through the A gap or over the top. Put a consistent and competitive team onto the field, regardless of style, and our fan base will respond in a positive way.
The first domino has fallen and more will fall in short order.

" GO HOGS "

BartIV

Bruce James says football played in the 60s would still work today.
I tend to disagree. We see what works for Arkansas. Petrine ball.
Recruit Skilled players for skill positions, play calling, try to out-score your opponent (don't play conservative), don't recruit players from a highschool team that has a history of losing (only players from winning highschool teams unless talent trumps the loses).

dfwalumdad

wow! i guess that explains why Jim McElwain and butch jones have fired and kevin sumlin is on the hot seat.

you don't know what you think you know.

rude1

Agreed. But as another poster pointed out there have been other offenses that seemed unstoppable until they got figured out then everyone moves to the next big thing.

The spread isn't new, it's just a variation of the old "run n shoot" offense Houston ran years ago, what has happened is that rule changes has made it the now current offense that is hard to defend.

Football is cyclical and an ever changing sport, you have to adapt to the changes or you get left behind, no longer able to compete. Bret's arrogance that he could line up and break people's will with dinosaur football in the SEC was naive at best.

Hoggish1

Quote from: elksnort on November 19, 2017, 07:42:32 am
The pro style did not work primarily because the offensive line was not good enough. The offense in 2015 was mighty good.
See, I said what I wanted to say without typing out an essay.

Exactly.  Apparently, the loss of Pittman was fatal to BB's pro-style aspirations when he couldn't find a coach that could maintain the level of excellence...

oldhawg

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on November 19, 2017, 07:22:48 am


And believe it or not, most Hog fans, regardless of age, could care less what offense the Hogs run as long as they play respectably, don't get blown out and win a little more often than we have over the last 5 seasons.

In principal I agree with you, but I guess there are exceptions to every rule.  I sometimes wish that the relationship between Coach Broyles and Coach Ken Hatfield would have been better, and that the fans had not become so disenchanted with Hatfield's style of play.  Perhaps if Hatfield would have stayed at Arkansas a few more years, the transition to the SEC would not have been as disastrous as it was.  Well, I don't usually look backwards, but that "what if" thought passes through my mind occasionally when I start thinking too much about Razorback football.

Jek Tono Porkins

The pro-style can still work. Really, when you think about it, Bielema's best team was that 2014 squad. Their record wasn't all that great but they were a hell of a lot better than their record indicated. Took Bama, Texas A&M, Miss State, and Mizzou (SEC-E champs) to the wire. Completely curb-stomped Texas Tech. Shut out LSU and Ole Miss. A few minor tweaks on offense and that squad could have easily been 10-2.

But instead of making those minor tweaks, Bielema threw the baby out with the bathwater and brought in Enos to overhaul the offense which worked as far as the skill players were concerned but not with the o-line. The o-line completely lost their identity and over the past few years they've gone from being one of the best units in the SEC to absolutely the worst. You can't say the smashmouth football style didn't work.
I have known the troubles I was born to know
I have wanted things a poor man's born to want
And in all my dreams and memories I go running
Through the fields of Arkansas from which I sprung

jackflash


MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Hoggish1 on November 19, 2017, 09:26:24 am
Exactly.  Apparently, the loss of Pittman was fatal to BB's pro-style aspirations when he couldn't find a coach that could maintain the level of excellence...

Think back for a moment, and I hope that I am remembering this correctly.

Chaney got his nose out of joint when he didn't get a raise when others were, got his invite to Pitt and departed.

Bielema brings in Enos as OC who then says that the O-Line is too big and slow to get out and block for the screens that are a part of his Offensive philosophy.

Pittman can see that things are changing with this OC in opposition to that which he coaches along the OL, and he was ticked that we didn't make more of an effort to keep his buddy Chaney. He's not happy and doesn't want to be in conflict with his OC.

Chaney gets a job with Kirby Smart at Georgia and because Chaney and Pittman are buddies, Pittman (who said he didn't need a non-compete because he wasn't going anywhere...another bad Bielema decision) leaves for Georgia where he will be allowed to coach his philosophy.

We bring in Anderson who apparently is more in agreement with Enos's philosophy (or was just willing to say yes to anything to get his own OL job) and we trim down the OL so they are more mobile, at the expense of losing our ability to be more dominant in power run blocking. We become one of the best screen pass teams in the country, but lose yards between the tackles.

So yes, I agree that losing Pittman apparently hurt us more than we thought it would, but it was Bielema who allowed the scheme to change and the conflict to be seeded between Pittman and Enos. I think that Bielema could have intervened and just told Enos that we were going to remain a power run blocking team between the tackles and that he and Pittman would just have to find a middle ground, but apparently he didn't do that.

Part of this is speculation on my part based on some fact, but it seems likely. I hate to pile on, but this rests on Bielema's shoulders for not managing his staff in a better way.
Go Hogs Go!

Piggfoot

As long as a coach can get his players he can be successful but in todays RPO spread offenses you have to have defensive players who can stop both styles of offenses. If you chose a power run offense you most likely will recruit dbacks and linebackers best suited to stop the run. That is the offense they practice against. In our case  our dbacks and linebackers could stop the run but weren't fast or quick enough to keep up with speedy recievers. You can't win shifting special players into the line up to cover what you expect the offense to do. Our defense  with players designed to stop the run   had to play back and hope for bad passes. Unfortunately our players weren't talented enough to be effective against either style.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

 

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Piggfoot on November 19, 2017, 10:51:57 am
As long as a coach can get his players he can be successful but in todays RPO spread offenses you have to have defensive players who can stop both styles of offenses. If you chose a power run offense you most likely will recruit dbacks and linebackers best suited to stop the run. That is the offense they practice against. In our case  our dbacks and linebackers could stop the run but weren't fast or quick enough to keep up with speedy recievers. You can't win shifting special players into the line up to cover what you expect the offense to do. Our defense  with players designed to stop the run   had to play back and hope for bad passes. Unfortunately our players weren't talented enough to be effective against either style.

You don't recruit a defense to defend the offense that you run. However, if you are running a Pro Style Offense, I believe that you have to have a far more talented defense that can get more 3 and out's as opposed to playing a BBDB style of defense, that counts on playing the odds and waiting for a big play that can stop the opponent just short of one or two more scoring drives than your offense.

The team that is really frightening is a team that runs an explosive offense at a fast pace and also has a shut down defense. That would be a team that is tough to beat. But getting that "shut down defense" is more difficult to achieve than having an offense that runs at fast pace and is explosive. That requires a lot of excellent athletes on defense, two to three deep, and that means recruiting at a very high level.

For Arkansas, we can achieve a team on offense that runs a lot of plays and continues to be aggressive and explosive at times that scores a lot of points, even with lesser recruiting classes, as long as the skilled talent is there. Getting the shut down defense is a more difficult task given our built-in recruiting disadvantages. But, we can certainly recruit an average defense that should help produce 7-8-9 wins every year.
Go Hogs Go!

3Scoreand10

Has anyone ever considered what Navy or Georgia Tech could do if they could recruit top 20 players?
Any system can win with the right players and coaches that know how to use said players.

jcbville

Some of you are waaay too enamored with "The Spread". And half of what you talk about isn't "The Spread". Even the beloved CBP isn't a fan of "The Spread". And plenty of coaches with great talent on their teams lose with "The Spread".

It's not some magic wand. Many would say what cost CBB was going towards "The Spread" instead of staying with his roots. Prostyle is fine. There are lots of Spread variations in lots of things now but "The Spread" doesn't guarantee shitt.

DoctorSusscrofa

There are other sports to watch. Don't need college football if they don't want us watching.
I expect to win the games we ought to win and be competitive in as many other games as possible. - M Barton

JOKERHOG

Quote from: rickm1976 on November 19, 2017, 08:02:03 am
Couldn't agree more.  We just don't have the horses, and probably never will like we did back in the SWC, when we were able to attract more recruits from Texas high schools.  The exception is the short time we had DMac, Felix, and Hillis, and Nutt squandered that talent.

If you want to recruit texas talent, you might not want to give a speech to the TX HS coaches and say their style sucks.  Just sayin
BRINGING BALANCE AND PERSPECTIVE TO HOGVILLE

"You're too damn illiterate to have a college education.  And I'm serious"  - Hawgar the Horrible 1/19/2017

5 most hated: 1Auburn 2Auburn 3Auburn 4A&M 5OU

bkjbearcat

Quote from: JOKERHOG on November 19, 2017, 03:38:29 pm
If you want to recruit texas talent, you might not want to give a speech to the TX HS coaches and say their style sucks.  Just sayin

That was one of BB's top three biggest mistakes in his tenure here. Mocked the style that 90 percent of the state runs. Then wonders why it was hard to recruit there. This might be pie in the sky thinking but my guess is whomever is the new HC there, Gus, Norvell, Morris even Gundy or HOLGORSEN whomever will recruit TX way better then BB ever did.
B-E-A-R-C-A-T-S BEARCATS, BEARCATS GOOOOOOO BEARCATS!!!!!!!<br /><br />D2 National Champs in Football: 1998, 1999, 2009, 2013, 2015, 2016<br /><br />D2 National Champs in Mens Basketball: 2017, 2019, No.1 team in 2020,2021, 2022

JOKERHOG

Quote from: oldhawg on November 19, 2017, 09:41:18 am
In principal I agree with you, but I guess there are exceptions to every rule.  I sometimes wish that the relationship between Coach Broyles and Coach Ken Hatfield would have been better, and that the fans had not become so disenchanted with Hatfield's style of play.  Perhaps if Hatfield would have stayed at Arkansas a few more years, the transition to the SEC would not have been as disastrous as it was.  Well, I don't usually look backwards, but that "what if" thought passes through my mind occasionally when I start thinking too much about Razorback football.

Keeping hatfield would have been a more difficult transition.  Every SEC game would have looked like the 1987 Miami game in LR.  The best coach for the SEC transition was on the other sideline that day but was snubbed three years earlier by Broyles.  Hiring hatfield over JJ in 1984 was disasterous for our program...
BRINGING BALANCE AND PERSPECTIVE TO HOGVILLE

"You're too damn illiterate to have a college education.  And I'm serious"  - Hawgar the Horrible 1/19/2017

5 most hated: 1Auburn 2Auburn 3Auburn 4A&M 5OU

Bacons Rebellion

Quote from: jcbville on November 19, 2017, 03:21:18 pm
Some of you are waaay too enamored with “The Spread”. And half of what you talk about isn’t “The Spread”. Even the beloved CBP isn’t a fan of “The Spread”. And plenty of coaches with great talent on their teams lose with “The Spread”.

It’s not some magic wand. Many would say what cost CBB was going towards “The Spread” instead of staying with his roots. Prostyle is fine. There are lots of Spread variations in lots of things now but “The Spread” doesn’t guarantee shitt.

Careful, you'll hurt the OP's feelings. We need the respect his safe zone.

Silver Hog


hogsanity

If the spread is such a great equalizer how come so many coaches that run it get fired every year or only win 6 or 7 games using it? Could it be because their players are not very good or their defense is terrible?

Plus I dont think you guys that are a proponent of the spread can even agree on what the spread is.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

IronHog

Pittman's lines were FAT but could pass block like nobody's business......pedestrian run blockers.


Anderson's lines can't do anything right.....except run screens 🙄
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

IronHog

Quote from: hogsanity on November 19, 2017, 04:27:57 pm
If the spread is such a great equalizer how come so many coaches that run it get fired every year or only win 6 or 7 games using it? Could it be because their players are not very good or their defense is terrible?

Plus I dont think you guys that are a proponent of the spread can even agree on what the spread is.


The spread is any system that uses spaced formations to help create leverage and room to operate for the offense.


Most NFL and College offenses are now spread based
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Silver Hog


rickm1976

Quote from: JOKERHOG on November 19, 2017, 03:38:29 pm
If you want to recruit texas talent, you might not want to give a speech to the TX HS coaches and say their style sucks.  Just sayin

Wow, I forgot about that particular time BB shot his mouth off when he shouldn't have.

Bacons Rebellion

Quote from: IronHog on November 19, 2017, 04:28:10 pm
Pittman’s lines were FAT but could pass block like nobody’s business......pedestrian run blockers.

Run blockers are SUPPOSED to be pedestrian. That's their job.

Sweet Feet

Quote from: Hogwarrior on November 18, 2017, 06:14:48 pm
I know some of you won't appreciate this post because you refuse to let go of the nostalgia of the past.  Football reminds me of the transformation of music production.  Music went from reel to reel, to 8 tracks and wax, to cassettes, to CDs, and now streaming is the way to go.  Time changes things and it has done the same to the precious sport of football.

The Hog, soon to be former coach,
gambled on the past and lost.  The pro style offense is a relic, even in the NFL, but yet, he chose to challenge the direction of the game.  He lost!

I know it will hurt a lot of the old school folks feelings, but the days of 14-6 or 6-3 National Championship games are over!  Bama lost to a Clemson team that ran 90 plays (or somewhere close) and lost their crown.  They didn't have enough O to beat Clemson.  I will go out on a limb and say the team with the best O will win it all this season too.

The game has changed from Pop Warner, to JR. High, to Sr High, to 7 on 7 and then to college.  It's a game of speed and specialized offensive players.  Now, will Tom Brady win the SB again this season?  Probably but it's more due to a genius coach and the last standing old school QB than it is to style!

The old saying was D wins championships.  Today it's more about a potent O with a D that can make a stop in a critical situation.   O wins championships today!  Clemson's D made plays against Bama, but did they really stop them or just made the timely play?  The Pats won the SB but was it really the D that delivered it?  The O put the D in a situation to make one stop!

The game has changed folks!  The Hogs will hire a transcendent coach who is using players in the way they have played all their lives rather than a slow developing, trudging, pro style O!  That Strategy is dead and will never return!  You won't win consistently hoping you can keep a potent O off the field because they are going to score when they are on the field!  You don't believe me?  I'll provide you one link that defines how the game is played today to support my post.  Good luck finding one that disputes it! 

It's a new day at UA and hopefully the new coach has a great offensive mind!  That's what it's going to take to play big boy football!

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2017/6/29/15824578/pro-style-vs-college-style-offense-that-is-the-question-alabama-michigan-spread

I don't care what teams are doing today offensively or what ever the offensive trend is.
DEFENSE will ALWAYS win championship. This isn't 7 on 7. If Offense won championships, the Pac-12 and Big 12 would have won a national title in the past 10 years. Saban has 4 titles in the past 8 years and he is best known for his Defense in his tenure at alabama.

If you get wrapped into this Offensive wins championships mentality, you will never win a national title.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: IronHog on November 19, 2017, 04:28:10 pm
Pittman's lines were FAT but could pass block like nobody's business......pedestrian run blockers.


Anderson's lines can't do anything right.....except run screens 🙄

Good pass protection has nothing to do with being fat or lean, it is more about technique and studying film and knowing what a team is going to throw at you and being able to trust the guy next to you to hold up his end.

Now Pittman's lines could pass block without a doubt, but you also need receivers who can get open quickly and a QB that doesn't just stand and hold the ball waiting for someone to get open.
Go Hogs Go!

Bubba's Bruisers

Quote from: hogsanity on November 19, 2017, 04:27:57 pm
If the spread is such a great equalizer how come so many coaches that run it get fired every year or only win 6 or 7 games using it? Could it be because their players are not very good or their defense is terrible?

Plus I dont think you guys that are a proponent of the spread can even agree on what the spread is.

Yes, talent comes first.  Yes, even above coaching...if only by a small margin.  We usually like to forget the importance of talent each February when we once again finish 11th in the SEC.  Until that changes, we won't be measurably better for any measurable length of time.
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heal.

Genesis 3:15

HogBreath

Quote from: hogsanity on November 19, 2017, 04:27:57 pm
If the spread is such a great equalizer how come so many coaches that run it get fired every year or only win 6 or 7 games using it? Could it be because their players are not very good or their defense is terrible?

Plus I dont think you guys that are a proponent of the spread can even agree on what the spread is.
Maybe this will help you to understand better, sometimes two teams who use the spread play one another.  One of them wins, one of them loses.  Hope this will help you.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

hogsanity

Quote from: HogBreath on November 19, 2017, 06:06:10 pm
Maybe this will help you to understand better, sometimes two teams who use the spread play one another.  One of them wins, one of them loses.  Hope this will help you.

Usually the team with better players.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

ChicoHog

Quote from: Sweet Feet on November 19, 2017, 05:30:12 pm
I don't care what teams are doing today offensively or what ever the offensive trend is.
DEFENSE will ALWAYS win championship. This isn't 7 on 7. If Offense won championships, the Pac-12 and Big 12 would have won a national title in the past 10 years. Saban has 4 titles in the past 8 years and he is best known for his Defense in his tenure at alabama.

If you get wrapped into this Offensive wins championships mentality, you will never win a national title.
Look at the current top teams.  Only Oklahoma has a mediocre to poor defense.  All the rest have good defenses. 

Hogwarrior

Quote from: HornetHog on November 19, 2017, 07:39:36 am
Hold on, not so fast,..... In the NFL as well...?   Tell Tom Brady that.
Pro style Quarterbacks are just harder to fine today, based on its so much easier for a Youth, HS and College coach to put a quick, fast RB athlete back there to make the first guy miss and move the chains.  I think in this climate, you'll start to see the True Pro Style pocket passer emerge and we'll all be in Awe when they do.  When really, its simply a QB who doesn't get rattled and keeps his eyes downfield to the 2nd and 3rd receiver. Spread or a mix of a power run look doesn't really matter,...its all about the QB we recruit and the QB Coach we have on the hill.  IMO

I take it you don't watch much NFL FB.  More and more teams are going to mobile QBs who can create with their feet even though they are not primarily looking to run.  The field is spread and we are even seeing the cheesy slot in motion on the jet sweep.  Nope, the days of  Brady, Brees, and Rivers is over for quit some time.  The NFL is flooded with the Rogers types (will run on ya but is pass first).

Hogwarrior

Quote from: wildhogman on November 19, 2017, 07:51:31 am
I know this isn't going to be popular response to your unpopular "football is changing". But, make the rules like they 20 years ago when a free safety put the fear of god into a crossing WR without worrying he might get called for targeting or something. Then get a FS or SS like Atwater and lets see how much teams throw the ball lol.  The game changed because rules changed favoring offense in a big way to protect the players. Remember the time we intercepted the ball and the other DB laid a block on the WR, called for and ejected "targeting".  Yet when the offense makes a good catch and another WR blindside blocks a DB,. no call at all, not even considered.  Why?  Targeting is targeting no matter what side you play on.  A DB turning to track down a WR who just made a catch is just as helpless as that WR was when the block comes from the blindside and he doesn't see it.  Rules changed to favor the offense in a big way because people think its cool to see basketball played at 100 yards with goal post

Like I said, nostalgia!  It will be another 10-15 years before you see a rule change to go back to that.  Unfortunately, scoring puts Butts in seats and keep TVs tuned in.  You think the NFL or CFB will kill the Golden Goose?  Football has changed and will stay that way for quite a while.

hogsanity

Quote from: Hogwarrior on November 19, 2017, 11:24:31 pm
I take it you don't watch much NFL FB.  More and more teams are going to mobile QBs who can create with their feet even though they are not primarily looking to run.  The field is spread and we are even seeing the cheesy slot in motion on the jet sweep.  Nope, the days of  Brady, Brees, and Rivers is over for quit some time.  The NFL is flooded with the Rogers types (will run on ya but is pass first).

Funny you mentioned Brady Brees and Rivers as all 3 won today
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Pig In The City

Quote from: Hoggish1 on November 19, 2017, 09:26:24 am
Exactly.  Apparently, the loss of Pittman was fatal to BB's pro-style aspirations when he couldn't find a coach that could maintain the level of excellence...
Bingo

go hogues

Quote from: bkjbearcat on November 19, 2017, 03:45:44 pm
That was one of BB's top three biggest mistakes in his tenure here. Mocked the style that 90 percent of the state runs. Then wonders why it was hard to recruit there. This might be pie in the sky thinking but my guess is whomever is the new HC there, Gus, Norvell, Morris even Gundy or HOLGORSEN whomever will recruit TX way better then BB ever did.
BB has always had sand in his craw regarding recruiting TX. Many questioned his motives when he first arrived by not hiring an ace Texas recruiter. He was stubborn and wanted to get'm all from South Florida.
Running his mouth at that coaching clinic was idiotic and Kingsbury had every right to call him out on it.
Quote from: Leadbelly on September 24, 2019, 09:05:22 pm<br />Dude, our back has been against the wall so long, we are now on the other side of the wall!<br />