Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either

[hogsanity]

It is completely untrue that baseball players can be identified earlier than football players.  What you said is true - speed and size are unknown until an athlete is fully developed physically.

The most important criteria for a baseball travel team coach at an early age is height, assuming a kid can walk and chew gum.  Next is whether he is left handed.  For some reason, every left handed kid is a pitching prospect - doesn't matter whether he can pitch or not. 

The biggest difference between football and baseball is that baseball requires skills that can be taught even to relatively unathletic kids.  That's what makes it the Great White Hope.  That's why coaches and travel leagues are making fortunes teaching little Johnny to play baseball.  It's a dirty little secret that those in the business or with kids in development react violently to when confronted with it.  There's plenty written about it.  I'm not making this up.  I just hate it for what it's done to the game at the grass roots level when kids are exploring what they love and where their passion lies. Kids need to play a variety of sports, and they need to do it on a level, relatively unpressured playing field before they decide whether they want to make one a year-round endeavor.  And that should come at the earliest in high school.

The truth is that a natural athlete can generally play most sports well.  There are mental and physical attributes a natural athlete will exhibit early that others won't.  Some with those attributes burn out at an early age.  Others never develop physically to go beyond a certain level.  Some are built particularly well for a given sport.  Early growth and parents can be hints, but are not foolproof by any means. 

Those who do the best in any particular sport over time are usually those who played a variety of sports that, taken together, developed a variety of skills and muscle groups at an early age.  Explosive, athletic position is fairly common throughout sports, even golf.  Having said that, sports like golf, tennis, baseball and soccer require skills that go beyond overpowering speed and athleticism.  If those skills - and the muscle memory that goes with them - are not learned early, most athletes who enter the game later will be at a serious disadvantage to those who master fundamentals early.       

This post I agree with entirely.

[urkillnmesmalls]

I don't think the number of D-1 prospect a state does or does not produce defines it as a "football" state.  Arkansas is a sports crazy place--local sports crazy.  When you're talking about large numbers of pro fans, you're mostly just talking about Dallas Cowboys fans and St. Louis Cardinals fans.

I think that most states of Arkansas' size experience D-1 talented seniors in waves.  We've been in a bit of a trough lately, but that may well be able to change.

For all of the talk about the demise of Pulaski County area football, consider this:  North Little Rock is a legit 7A contender.  Pulaski Academy is what it is.  Robinson is the odds-on favorite to win 4A.  LR Christian, LR McClellan, and LR Parkview are all solid.  McClellan might get even better when the new Southwest High is built.  Little Rock-area HS football is better this year than it has been in several seasons, IMO.

Good points, and I talked to two people from Texas who live here now, and went to the BV vs BV West game Friday night.  They said it was every bit of the feel of going to football games in the Dallas Metro area, and that includes big time teams like Allen etc. 

When you think about the number of residents who attend football games on Friday nights....Arkansas still shows up for football pretty strongly. 

[LJHOG]

This map of NFL players per capita would say this is not accurate.

http://i.imgur.com/TnYdL5U.jpg

I'm sure there is a map for basketball that is the same. 

that's per 100,000.  Given the population of PB that would be 1 NFL player each decade.

[hogsanity]

Good points, and I talked to two people from Texas who live here now, and went to the BV vs BV West game Friday night.  They said it was every bit of the feel of going to football games in the Dallas Metro area, and that includes big time teams like Allen etc. 

When you think about the number of residents who attend football games on Friday nights....Arkansas still shows up for football pretty strongly. 

Maybe I am looking at it differently. The last 2 weeks, there were approximately 200 hs footballs games in Ar and over 80 of them were in the mercy rule ( one team up by 35+ ) at some point.

BV/BVW are two very good teams ( although BV will start to decline once this SR class graduates ) but for the most part Ar SH football is bad. Now, when 2 bad teams hook up, the game can be "good" ( see Ar/om ) but it does not mean it is good football.

[bphi11ips]

Hey..is that Chris and Tim's brother?  If so, I remember that horrible story.  He was swimming across a pond and just disappeared right?  Hard to imagine that.  I didn't realize he was a star baseball player.  I do know that Tim was one of the best ball strikers I've ever seen swing a club, but he needed his brother Chris's short game.   

Yes.  Bruce, Tim and I played together on an all-star team his dad coached when Tim and I were 11 and Bruce was 12.  Tim hit his first home run ever to keep us alive against Pine Bluff in the final round of the state Little League tournament.  It was double elimination and we lost the next day.  Man the dreams we had.  Most of us had never been out of Arkansas, and a win would have taken us to Florida.

Bruce threw right handed and batted left handed.  He hit .636 as a twelve year old and won the batting title easily.  He didn't have a lot of power, though.  Was more slightly built than Tim.  Bruce was one of the nicest guys and best leaders you'd ever want to meet.  He drowned in Reservoir Lake in Little Rock when he got a cramp swimming with buddies one night. 

Tim could flat out hit a golf ball.  The last time I saw him was when I played a round of golf at Mountain Ranch near Heber Springs about 30 years ago.  Tim was the head pro there at the time.  His brother, Dick was the head pro at the Royal and Ancient Rebsamen Golf Golf Course.  Before that he had to deal with the torn up fairways and greens at War Memorial Golf Course and Goat Ranch.

The Jenkins dad was Richard, Senior.  He had four boys like his contemporary and rival, Houston, Nutt, Sr.  Both coached baseball at Junior Deputy.  One would remind you of Obi-Wan Kenobi Another was a lot like Darth Vader.  The apple didn't fall far from the tree with their kids.         

[snoblind]

Unadulterated BS.

We understand that you prefer baseball.  The truth is that baseball has become the Great White Hope.  As a result, middle-class parents all over the country, not just in Arkansas, are hiring private trainers for their children and placing them on "travel teams" by the age of 5.  That has been good for the sport at the college and major league levels.  It has been terrible for the sport at the youth level.  It will ultimately not be good for the sport as generations like ours who remember baseball as the egalitarian game it once was disappear. 

I have been watching high school football almost as long as I have been watching college football.  I played in Little Rock in the 70s when it was very competitive there.  For the last 20 years I've watched high school football in middle Tennessee where 4 and 5 star players are common.  I went to the Catholic High-North Little Rock game a few weeks ago.  Maybe the teams you ref in the boonies don't have a lot of talent.  There was a lot of talent on the field for NLR.  NLR would do well at the 6A level in Tennessee.  They would be a Top 10 team statewide. 

I haven't seen high school football in NWA since I went to school in Fayetteville, but my understanding here and from talking to parents at the Catholic game is that NWA has very strong teams.  I also understand that private schools in Little Rock have strong programs.  Quite a bit of talent has come out of PA, Little Rock Christian, etc., over the years.

Does Little Rock have a football problem?  Apparently so, one that is directly related to its overall public school problem.  Does Arkansas have a competitive problem in rural areas due to the size of small school districts?  Maybe so.  But those small school districts produce pretty good football players occasionally.  It is what it is and that is not going to change as long as Arkansas's rural population stays as it is now.

Arkansas not a football state?  Uh huh.     

Where did you play at?  I was at Northside in the 70's.  Went to NHS/Bryant game this year.  Kind of like watching Varsity scrimmage against the JV when comparing size.  NLR does look pretty good this year.  Combining the 2 high schools helped their football.  Seems strange that Springdale, Rogers, and Bentonville have 2 high schools and NLR doesn't.

Little Rock does have a football problem.  When we were in school it was Parkview, Central, and Hall.  NW Arkansas has taken over as the elite of the big schools.  But when they play the best of the best in neighboring states I'd say Arkansas comes out on the short end.

[urkillnmesmalls]

It is completely untrue that baseball players can be identified earlier than football players.  What you said is true - speed and size are unknown until an athlete is fully developed physically.

The most important criteria for a baseball travel team coach at an early age is height, assuming a kid can walk and chew gum.  Next is whether he is left handed.  For some reason, every left handed kid is a pitching prospect - doesn't matter whether he can pitch or not. 

The biggest difference between football and baseball is that baseball requires skills that can be taught even to relatively unathletic kids.  That's what makes it the Great White Hope.  That's why coaches and travel leagues are making fortunes teaching little Johnny to play baseball.  It's a dirty little secret that those in the business or with kids in development react violently to when confronted with it.  There's plenty written about it.  I'm not making this up.  I just hate it for what it's done to the game at the grass roots level when kids are exploring what they love and where their passion lies. Kids need to play a variety of sports, and they need to do it on a level, relatively unpressured playing field before they decide whether they want to make one a year-round endeavor.  And that should come at the earliest in high school.

The truth is that a natural athlete can generally play most sports well.  There are mental and physical attributes a natural athlete will exhibit early that others won't.  Some with those attributes burn out at an early age.  Others never develop physically to go beyond a certain level.  Some are built particularly well for a given sport.  Early growth and parents can be hints, but are not foolproof by any means. 

Those who do the best in any particular sport over time are usually those who played a variety of sports that, taken together, developed a variety of skills and muscle groups at an early age.  Explosive, athletic position is fairly common throughout sports, even golf.  Having said that, sports like golf, tennis, baseball and soccer require skills that go beyond overpowering speed and athleticism.  If those skills - and the muscle memory that goes with them - are not learned early, most athletes who enter the game later will be at a serious disadvantage to those who master fundamentals early.     

Man, that is a great post.  I couldn't agree more.  Sports have changed so much from when I was playing in the mid-late 80's that it's not even recognizable.  I did 'em all...and was the best at baseball and golf, but loved the others as well.  Nowadays, if you aren't specializing in one sport by the age of 12, the thought is that you're going to fall irreversibly behind.  And the parents...oh man, that's a different level of crazy than I ever experienced.       

[bphi11ips]

Good points, and I talked to two people from Texas who live here now, and went to the BV vs BV West game Friday night.  They said it was every bit of the feel of going to football games in the Dallas Metro area, and that includes big time teams like Allen etc. 

When you think about the number of residents who attend football games on Friday nights....Arkansas still shows up for football pretty strongly. 

I was blowed away, and I mean BLOWED AWAY, by what I saw at NLR.  The facility itself beats anything we have for high school football in Middle Tennessee.  The turnout for the game was impressive, too, especially considering that Catholic didn't have a great year.

I think the death of football in central Arkansas may be a bit exaggerated.   

[wildturkey8]

I don't think the number of D-1 prospect a state does or does not produce defines it as a "football" state.  Arkansas is a sports crazy place--local sports crazy.  When you're talking about large numbers of pro fans, you're mostly just talking about Dallas Cowboys fans and St. Louis Cardinals fans.

I think that most states of Arkansas' size experience D-1 talented seniors in waves.  We've been in a bit of a trough lately, but that may well be able to change.

For all of the talk about the demise of Pulaski County area football, consider this:  North Little Rock is a legit 7A contender.  Pulaski Academy is what it is.  Robinson is the odds-on favorite to win 4A.  LR Christian, LR McClellan, and LR Parkview are all solid.  McClellan might get even better when the new Southwest High is built.  Little Rock-area HS football is better this year than it has been in several seasons, IMO.

Well that would be a good thing.

[BoogaHog]

We are a football, basketball, baseball, and track state.  A full review of history will indicate this.  We just need coaches who put forth the effort to recruit and manage details well.  Some say AR football is mediocre...BS...look at what the 7A has done to Oklahoma and Missouri schools this year.  Look at what PA is doing to gulp, Memphis schools and high profile programs throughout the nation (That's hard to say as a CAC and Maumelle fan..lol)  Look at Texarkana's shutout of TX High.

Basketball?  Very talent rich..look at the next three recruiting classes.  Finally, Coach Mike doesn't have to compete as much with the obvious cheaters since the FBI probe.

Baseball?  Fastest gaining and hottest sport in AR.  Every since High School baseball was established.  So much MLB talent.

Track?  Lots of talent and enough nations best times and talent.  Look at Fayetteville's track facility.  Great program that gets tremendous results from effort and very little natural talent.  Look at Pine Bluff's track history, incredible!

We are going to be okay once we get admins who get who we are (Arkansas Culuture)  Just watch!

[urkillnmesmalls]

Where did you play at?  I was at Northside in the 70's.  Went to NHS/Bryant game this year.  Kind of like watching Varsity scrimmage against the JV when comparing size.  NLR does look pretty good this year.  Combining the 2 high schools helped their football.  Seems strange that Springdale, Rogers, and Bentonville have 2 high schools and NLR doesn't.

Little Rock does have a football problem.  When we were in school it was Parkview, Central, and Hall.  NW Arkansas has taken over as the elite of the big schools.  But when they play the best of the best in neighboring states I'd say Arkansas comes out on the short end.

I understand that Jenks is down this season, but FV killed them earlier this season, and along with Union, Jenks is the powerhouse team in OK.  Rockhurst in KC has been tough as well, and BV has gotten the best of them a few times.  Same for O'Fallon MO, just outside St. Louis.  So there are some examples of the NWA teams getting wins against some out of state teams that are pretty solid.

Correction...Harber got Jenks.  I think FV got Muskogee??  I can't remember.  At any rate, we don't suck as bad as it's portrayed in HS football.   

[hogsanity]

Man, that is a great post.  I couldn't agree more.  Sports have changed so much from when I was playing in the mid-late 80's that it's not even recognizable.  I did 'em all...and was the best at baseball and golf, but loved the others as well.  Nowadays, if you aren't specializing in one sport by the age of 12, the thought is that you're going to fall irreversibly behind.  And the parents...oh man, that's a different level of crazy than I ever experienced.       

When we ( I am an 88 grad ) were in school, when football was over, it was time for basketball, when that ended it was time for baseball & track. There was no spring football practices, there was not much of an off season program if you played one sport but not the other. Now football coaches want their players in off season the day after the season ends. They get mad if a kid plays baseball because it might interfere with spring practice. Basketball coaches are the same way. Not sure about baseball because most schools do not have enough full time baseball players to make a team

[jst01]

Having said that, sports like golf, tennis, baseball and soccer require skills that go beyond overpowering speed and athleticism.  If those skills - and the muscle memory that goes with them - are not learned early, most athletes who enter the game later will be at a serious disadvantage to those who master fundamentals early.       

Those "other skills" are what I believe are easier to spot at a young age in baseball than football. 

[EastexHawg]

Nowadays, if you aren't specializing in one sport by the age of 12, the thought is that you're going to fall irreversibly behind.  And the parents...oh man, that's a different level of crazy than I ever experienced.       

I'm not a sports parent, but I see it from people I know.  It's not just boys, either.  Girls' softball has just become insane.  They play year-round and the parents spend almost every weekend of every year hauling little sissy around the entire state.  Half of them are convinced their darling is going to get a softball scholarship and chauffeuring her around to tournament after tournament is part of their "job" that will pay off via not having to pay for college.

It may have been alluded to in this thread, but the unspoken but underlying factor in all this "tournament team" stuff is that the parents who can afford to put their kids on these teams and attend tournaments every weekend are also keeping their babies from having to compete for spots on the school team with those who can't afford it.  Your son isn't good enough athletically to get football playing time ahead of the black, Hispanic, and white kids from less affluent families?  No problem, just let him pay to play on the lacrosse team where he can start and play all the time just like the "real" athletes!

[hassettsportsman]

As a former educator, as most of you know, school is vastly different from our time.  Now it's all about federal matching funding and prescriptive testing with less emphasis on physical education.  For the most part, white children have the benefit of 2 parents while that's not the case for African American children.  In summary, all children should have 2 parents who care and present as role models.  As a result, many athletes haven't the foundation to confront society's ills and temptations.  What concerns me is our 'throw the gladiators away after we have used them' attitude.   

[bphi11ips]

Those "other skills" are what I believe are easier to spot at a young age in baseball than football. 

My point is that those "other skills" have to be taught.  I can teach a 5-year-old black kid from the inner city to hit a golf ball just as easily as I can teach a 5-year-old white kid from the suburbs.  Same thing with throwing or fielding or hitting a baseball.  The question boils down to opportunity. 

Can you gauge raw, relative athletic talent in 5-year-olds?  Yes - you can do that with music and math and other things.  But it's a myth that some guru can spot a particularly gifted baseball prospect at 5 or 6 or 7.  It's a myth used effectively to build business, though.   

[BoogaHog]

As a former educator, as most of you know, school is vastly different from our time.  Now it's all about federal matching funding and prescriptive testing with less emphasis on physical education.  For the most part, white children have the benefit of 2 parents while that's not the case for African American children.  In summary, all children should have 2 parents who care and present as role models.  As a result, many athletes haven't the foundation to confront society's ills and temptations.  What concerns me is our 'throw the gladiators away after we have used them' attitude.   

Totally 100% accurate.  That's why educators and coaches with heart are so so important.  They become a second parent and in some cases the only parent.  I see more and more coaches in central Arkansas filling that gap and realizing that earning money is secondary in life.  Leading a great life, and having a positive impact is so much more.  I finally understand what my son has been telling me for six years.

[bphi11ips]

When we ( I am an 88 grad ) were in school, when football was over, it was time for basketball, when that ended it was time for baseball & track. There was no spring football practices, there was not much of an off season program if you played one sport but not the other. Now football coaches want their players in off season the day after the season ends. They get mad if a kid plays baseball because it might interfere with spring practice. Basketball coaches are the same way. Not sure about baseball because most schools do not have enough full time baseball players to make a team

The best head coaches encourage athletes to play other sports....as long as those sports don't conflict with their own.  Year around training is a problem that we didn't face at the level kids now face it.

The biggest challenge these days is the cottage industry that has grown up around college recruiting.  It has forced kids to focus year round on the camp system.  The funny thing is that the camp system is giving so much conflicting information to coaches that they don't know what to make of it.  At the end of the day, at least where football is concerned, a coach better watch of lot of film, because the 3 star ranks, in particular, are full of beauty contest winners who don't know a block from a tackle. 

[bphi11ips]

Totally 100% accurate.  That's why educators and coaches with heart are so so important.  They become a second parent and in some cases the only parent.  I see more and more coaches in central Arkansas filling that gap and realizing that earning money is secondary in life.  Leading a great life, and having a positive impact is so much more.  I finally understand what my son has been telling me for six years.

Amen, brother.  I have wished many times I were a high school history teacher/football coach.  That would be a life you could check out on without regret. 

[hassettsportsman]

Here in lies the Catch 22.  If educators are to be parents also, then their compensation should be reflective in their added responsibilities. Afterall, in some cases students and student athletes spend more time with educators than their parents.  Great educators are more valuable than many other vocations.  Poor educators take a tremendous toll on today's youth.  With respect to golf, yes, children can be taught muscle memory.  Far more important are the life lessons regarding judgment and self respect that become part of their foundation.  Unfortunately, we see bad examples every Saturday and Sunday.  I suspect that's part of the reason NFL ratings are suffering...as they should!

[snoblind]

I understand that Jenks is down this season, but FV killed them earlier this season, and along with Union, Jenks is the powerhouse team in OK.  Rockhurst in KC has been tough as well, and BV has gotten the best of them a few times.  Same for O'Fallon MO, just outside St. Louis.  So there are some examples of the NWA teams getting wins against some out of state teams that are pretty solid.

Correction...Harber got Jenks.  I think FV got Muskogee??  I can't remember.  At any rate, we don't suck as bad as it's portrayed in HS football.   

I wouldn't argue that at all.  I thought Rockhurst trashed somebody at the beginning of the season.  I remember Northside used to play them home and home - seems like we won 1 out of 3?  I lived in Tulsa in the 90's, Union district.  Over 25 years ago, already had indoor practice facilities, etc.  Campus looked a small college. 

In those days it was Union and Jenks, everybody else played for 3rd - that hasn't changed much, has it?.  Coach for Broken Arrow when I was there is now the Greenwood coach.

One comment I will make about facilities.  Had clients maybe 8 years coming from Alabama whose son played football.  So when we drove around looking at houses the high schools and stadiums were part of the tour.  They were in shock at the facilities Greenwood, Alma, and Van Buren and even some of the smaller towns had given the size of the town.

Edit:  Realized you mentioned Muskogee so had to mention this.  When I was in Junior High in Fort Smith we played the 2 junior highs there.  First play in 9th grade I line up at tackle and look across the line.  I was (and am) a big old boy.  Dude had me by at least 6 inches and had a full beard.  Refs didn't pay near as much attention as they should have and I pulled out every dirty trick in the book to, maybe,  battle to a draw. 

[hogsanity]

I'm not a sports parent, but I see it from people I know.  It's not just boys, either.  Girls' softball has just become insane.  They play year-round and the parents spend almost every weekend of every year hauling little sissy around the entire state.  Half of them are convinced their darling is going to get a softball scholarship and chauffeuring her around to tournament after tournament is part of their "job" that will pay off via not having to pay for college.

It may have been alluded to in this thread, but the unspoken but underlying factor in all this "tournament team" stuff is that the parents who can afford to put their kids on these teams and attend tournaments every weekend are also keeping their babies from having to compete for spots on the school team with those who can't afford it.  Your son isn't good enough athletically to get football playing time ahead of the black, Hispanic, and white kids from less affluent families?  No problem, just let him pay to play on the lacrosse team where he can start and play all the time just like the "real" athletes!

Agree with the 1st paragraph. Not sure what you mean by the 2nd. At some point the travel teams go away. I guess in larger areas maybe they have competitive league out side of school teams, but for the most part once you hit 9th grade your main options are school teams. Maybe baseball, but even then once you reach 15u travel ball the kids playing are almost all also playing Hs ball.

[razorsharptusk]

You don't have to be a "football state" to get a coach that can win you more games in your conference than what CBB has.  Give me a break.  11 conference games won in 5 years. 

[hogsanity]

You don't have to be a "football state" to get a coach that can win you more games in your conference than what CBB has.  Give me a break.  11 conference games won in 5 years. 

This really has NOTHING to do with the coach, and I do not think he had even been brought up in this thread until now.

[urkillnmesmalls]

I wouldn't argue that at all.  I thought Rockhurst trashed somebody at the beginning of the season.  I remember Northside used to play them home and home - seems like we won 1 out of 3?  I lived in Tulsa in the 90's, Union district.  Over 25 years ago, already had indoor practice facilities, etc.  Campus looked a small college. 

In those days it was Union and Jenks, everybody else played for 3rd - that hasn't changed much, has it?.  Coach for Broken Arrow when I was there is now the Greenwood coach.

One comment I will make about facilities.  Had clients maybe 8 years coming from Alabama whose son played football.  So when we drove around looking at houses the high schools and stadiums were part of the tour.  They were in shock at the facilities Greenwood, Alma, and Van Buren and even some of the smaller towns had given the size of the town.

Edit:  Realized you mentioned Muskogee so had to mention this.  When I was in Junior High in Fort Smith we played the 2 junior highs there.  First play in 9th grade I line up at tackle and look across the line.  I was (and am) a big old boy.  Dude had me by at least 6 inches and had a full beard.  Refs didn't pay near as much attention as they should have and I pulled out every dirty trick in the book to, maybe,  battle to a draw.

Yeah...Rockhurst got Bentonville this year, but they've held their own with them over the years.  And I think we all have a good sports moment like that.  State track meet...a guy asked for starting blocks in the 800 at JA Fair.  Really?  Then I found out why...oh man, I couldn't have beat that kid if I was running the first 400 as a 400m race!!   

[IronHog]

This really has NOTHING to do with the coach, and I do not think he had even been brought up in this thread until now.

Could you ever touch the net?


Doubtful

[Pork Twain]

Petrino had us playing well.

Just takes the right coach.

Without that uncommonly great class when CBP arrived, we would likely be seeing something along the lines of what Louisville is seeing.

[IronHog]

Without that uncommonly great class when CBP arrived, we would likely be seeing something along the lines of what Louisville is seeing.

Just freaking dumb


BP woulda killed all with players like BA, Henry, and Sprinkle

[hogsanity]

Just freaking dumb


BP woulda killed all with players like BA, Henry, and Sprinkle

Yet with a Heisman winner he can't do anything...................

[Razorbackers]

Yet with a Heisman winner he can't do anything...................

Not true. He can lose.

[IronHog]

Yet with a Heisman winner he can't do anything...................

Nice Bobby ain't BP edited

[Pork Twain]

Just freaking dumb


BP woulda killed all with players like BA, Henry, and Sprinkle

He has done great since them, huh...

[Bubba's Bruisers]

When the phrase "football state" is used, I always interpret it as being the most popular sport in the state for the fans.  Simple as that.  Nothing to do with the success of the football program or the level of football talent the State produces.  Just its popularity with the folks in the state.

I'd venture to guess that if given the option that the UA could only have 1 elite major program...either football, basketball or baseball...while the remaining 2 major programs had to suck, the folks would take football by a mile.  Baseball would barely get a mention.  I believe that's what makes Arkansas a football state.

[hogsanity]

When the phrase "football state" is used, I always interpret it as being the most popular sport in the state for the fans.  Simple as that.  Nothing to do with the success of the football program or the level of football talent the State produces.  Just its popularity with the folks in the state.

I'd venture to guess that if given the option that the UA could only have 1 elite major program...either football, basketball or baseball...while the remaining 2 major programs had to suck, the folks would take football by a mile.  Baseball would barely get a mention.  I believe that's what makes Arkansas a football state.

fair enough

[bphi11ips]

fair enough


This exactly what I said yesterday when I said the answer depends upon "the mindset of the populace".

[IronHog]

It's a demographics issue but that's over yuppiesanities head


The southern parts of Arkansas produce athletes on par with other SEC states


The Midwest/mountain areas (see NWA) are basically Kansas


Not that hard to figure out

[Bubba's Bruisers]

It's a demographics issue but that's over yuppiesanities head


The southern parts of Arkansas produce athletes on par with other SEC states


The Midwest/mountain areas (see NWA) are basically Kansas


Not that hard to figure out

Just have to get those southern boys qualified.

[Inhogswetrust]

It's a demographics issue but that's over yuppiesanities head


The southern parts of Arkansas produce athletes on par with other SEC states


The Midwest/mountain areas (see NWA) are basically Kansas


Not that hard to figure out

NWA is VERY different from Kansas in all ways. You know that but with your agenda against the area I'm not surprised.

[bphi11ips]

NWA is VERY different from Kansas in all ways. You know that but with your agenda against the area I'm not surprised.

Ironhog is correct.  He is talking apples where this thread is concerned.  You are talking oranges because of your own agenda.  For you everything boils down to the GSD, and you hate Little Rock.  Lots of people who grew up in Jacksonville when you did hated Little Rock.  I don't really blame you.  People from Little Rock, especially on the northwest side of the city, were pretty haughty.  Still are.  Not much different than the haughtiness of many posters here now from NWA.  Time to get over that.  That goes for LR and NWA.

This is a thread about whether Arkansas is a football or a basketball state or a baseball state.  It seems pretty silly to say that it is not all three.  I think even hogsanity is convinced of that now.  The truth is that Arkansas is a sports state.  That is due in very large part to the broad success of Razorbacks athletic programs, and that success is due in large part to Frank Broyles and the GOBN and Foundation members who funded it.  By-and-large, the money and the statewide interest came because of the success of football. 

Ironhog's point is that NWA looks a lot like Kansas where demographics are concerned.  He could have just as easily compared it to the Midwest, specifically to what the U.S. Census Bureau calls the "West North Central Division" of the Midwest, of which Kansas is a part.  Here are the numbers based on the 2010 census, which you won't like because they tend to underscore the importance of central and southern Arkansas for recruiting purposes (especially for the football team), but they are the numbers all the same:

NWA MSA - Pop. = 463,204; African American = 1.9%; total African American = 8,801   

Cent. Ark. MSA - Pop.= 734,622; African American=21.02%; total African American pop. = 154,418

Arkansas - Pop.=2,915,918; African American = 15.9%; total African American = 463,631

Kansas - African American % of population = 5.9%

That's enough to illustrate Ironhog's point.

You tend to think in terms of topography.  I get it.  We both love the Ozarks.  You once pointed out that the Ozarks are a plateau, not mountains.  That would be correct.  There is a saying that in Arkansas it's not that the mountains are so high but that the valleys are so deep.  We tend to think of Kansas as flat as parking lot, and it is, but it also slopes from west to east from over 4,000 feet to 700 feet like one giant, tilted parking lot.  It just isn't eroded like the Ozark Plateau. Overall the elevation of Kansas is much higher than the elevation of Arkansas.

In terms of race and ethnicity, the people of NWA are much more akin to the people of Kansas than the people of the rest of the state.  That is what Ironhog is saying.

[Cotton]

Ironhog is correct.  He is talking apples where this thread is concerned.  You are talking oranges because of your own agenda.  For you everything boils down to the GSD, and you hate Little Rock.  Lots of people who grew up in Jacksonville when you did hated Little Rock.  I don't really blame you.  People from Little Rock, especially on the northwest side of the city, were pretty haughty.  Still are.  Not much different than the haughtiness of many posters here now from NWA.  Time to get over that.  That goes for LR and NWA.

This is a thread about whether Arkansas is a football or a basketball state or a baseball state.  It seems pretty silly to say that it is not all three.  I think even hogsanity is convinced of that now.  The truth is that Arkansas is a sports state.  That is due in very large part to the broad success of Razorbacks athletic programs, and that success is due in large part to Frank Broyles and the GOBN and Foundation members who funded it.  By-and-large, the money came because of the success of football. 

Ironhog's point is that NWA looks a lot like Kansas where demographics are concerned.  He could have just as easily compared it to the Midwest, specifically, what the U.S. Census Bureau Calls the "West North Central Division" of the Midwest, of which Kansas is a part.  Here are the numbers based on the 2010 census, which you won't like because they tend to underscore the importance of central and southern Arkansas for recruiting purposes (especially for the football team), but they are the numbers all the same:

NWA MSA - Pop. = 463,204; African American = 1.9%; total African American = 8,801   

Cent. Ark. MSA - Pop.= 734,622; African American=21.02%; total African American pop. = 154,418

Arkansas - Pop.=2,915,918; African American = 15.9%; total African American = 463,631

Kansas - African American % of population = 5.9%

That's enough to illustrate Ironhog's point.

You tend to think in terms of topography.  I get it.  We both love the Ozarks.  You once pointed out that the Ozarks are a plateau, not mountains.  That would be correct.  There is a saying that in Arkansas it's not that the mountains are so high but that the valleys are so deep.  We tend to think of Kansas as flat as parking lot, and it is, but it also slopes from west to east from over 4,000 feet to 700 feet like one giant, tilted parking lot.  It just isn't eroded like the Ozark Plateau. Overall the elevation of Kansas is much higher than the elevation of Arkansas.

In terms of race and ethnicity, the people of NWA are much more akin to the people of Kansas than the people of the rest of the state.  That is what Ironhog is saying.

Get out of here with all those facts. You're scaring people.

Nice post. +1 if I could.

[bphi11ips]

Get out of here with all those facts. You're scaring people.

Nice post. +1 if I could.

Well, those facts should be encouraging.  When you couple Arkansas with major metro areas within five hours driving distance of Fayetteville, you can see that Arkansas is not as handicapped from a recruiting perspective as many here insist it is.   

[hogsanity]

Well, those facts should be encouraging.  When you couple Arkansas with major metro areas within five hours driving distance of Fayetteville, you can see that Arkansas is not as handicapped from a recruiting perspective as many here insist it is.   

Arkansas, when compared to all of fbs football, is not that handicapped ( as shown by being in the top 25 most years in recruiting ). The problem comes in that of the 24 ahead of them half are in the SEC. When 4-6 of the teams you play every year get better players than you do every year it is going to show up on the field.

[bphi11ips]

Arkansas, when compared to all of fbs football, is not that handicapped ( as shown by being in the top 25 most years in recruiting ). The problem comes in that of the 24 ahead of them half are in the SEC. When 4-6 of the teams you play every year get better players than you do every year it is going to show up on the field.

That's not going to change.  But I will say two things - (1) Arkansas can compete in the SEC West based upon the talent available to it, and (2) recruiting rankings are pretty much a reflection of what we used to call "tradition", i.e., they track college program rankings in general.  To some extent they are a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The other thing I'll say is that recruiting services miss a whole lot of talent in the three-star category.  They miss it both ways.  It is a function of the camp system, the intermediary player reps, etc.  There is a lot of money involved.  I'm not talking about cheating, I'm talking about in the camp and rating system.  Coaches are under a lot of pressure to produce not only winning teams, but teams that rank highly every year in the recruiting ratings.  Coaches who take the time and have the ability to analyze a lot of film to find the best talent and the courage to ignore the pressure from the fan base to sign a highly rated recruiting class when making a decision about who to offer will do better than their average recruiting ranking.  I'm speaking here from personal experience and from conversations with college coaches and players' reps. 

[hawgball40]

Arkansas, when compared to all of fbs football, is not that handicapped ( as shown by being in the top 25 most years in recruiting ). The problem comes in that of the 24 ahead of them half are in the SEC. When 4-6 of the teams you play every year get better players than you do every year it is going to show up on the field.

I don't recall bobby or hdn ever making this excuse... pretty weak imo. a good coach wins. /thread

[hogsanity]

I don't recall bobby or hdn ever making this excuse... pretty weak imo. a good coach wins. /thread

Agree, a good coach would at least win the secw.

[KennyForAD]

While the question is being asked is Arkansas a football school, one really has to ask, is Arkansas a football state? I say the answer to that is no. While we enjoy football, as a state we are not very good at playing it. Our teams, when compared to similar teams in other states, are small and slow. We enjoy watching football, many towns live and die with their local high school team, and from time to time the state produces an excellent player, but it is not a football state because the football product for the most part is not very good.

But I will go even further. Arkansas is not a very athletic state, period. While basketball is very good in a couple areas ( LR being one ) most of the basketball in Ar suffers from the same problems as does football, small and slow.

If anything, Arkansas is a baseball state, that is a sport where size and speed are not as big of factor, and I do not think it is a coincidence that the UofA has been more successful in baseball that any other sport over the last 15-20 years ( maybe track, but even it had a lull after John M left ).

Now, the people WANT this to be a football state and for the UofA to be a football school because that is where they see the glory, the recognition. Football is easier for fans to get involved with too with bigger venues, fewer games, usually on a Sat so it is easier to attend, you can tailgate much easier for football than other sports too.

Oddly though, football is also the hardest sport for a university to be truly good in. Lose 1 game and you are likely out of the NC picture, 2 and you are probably almost out of NYD6 bowls contention. 3 of more losses, and you start wondering what middle level bowl you are playing in at 3pm someday between Christmas and NY eve.

Highland Park always has one of the finest teams in TEXAS.  I watched a team from Arkansas whip Highland Park a couple of years ago.

TAKE YOUR LIES ELSEWHERE.

[IronHog]

Just have to get those southern boys qualified.

Meh


Need more warrens and less beardens

[Rudy Baylor]

We've always been a football state, a basketball state, a baseball and track state

Always

[hawgball40]

Agree, a good coach would at least win the secw.

Gotta have the horses. But, if you build it they will come. I'd argue petrino had us on our way. Whether he could have gotten over the hump is moot. We have to get over that hump, not accept mediocrity.

[greenie]

Am I reading this right...the gene pool in Arkansas has resulted in smaller and slower people compared to that in the surrounding states?  And that's why were struggle in football and basketball.

Interesting.