Maybe I'm naive...

[HogMantheIntruder]

This is really the earliest in the year that I have begun paying much attention to recruiting, and that's really just because it's been raining commits at such a frenetic pace, but isn't it a bit early to make a judgement on a recruit that hasn't played a down of their Senior year in HS? How much does a 3* ranking mean at this point? I know there are some who can project that kind of thing, but most of them are employed doing just that, and we actually have some of the best.

I can't wait to watch what these guys do this year. This recruiting season is going to be about keeping our commits rather than trying to fill up a class, IMO.

[Hollywood_HOGan45]

Lots of fans don't want to hear this but we just aren't that program that gets 4 and 5s.  It doesn't help that it's been a half decade since we were consistently in the top 25.

I love coach b but we just aren't there yet. I think we will get there but to expect a highly ranked class is a bit absurd. I would worry about our tactics if we were landing a bunch of high ranked kids.

[Bacon_Bitz]

We've never been the type of program to attract a lot of 4 and 5 star guys unless they're in-state kids. Not being consistent top 25 caliber the last half decade has nothing to do with it -it's been this way throughout the modern era of recruiting, particularly this century. The highest profile out of state kid we've landed just happened to be on the other side of the state kind in Texarkana and we only got him as a transfer.

I understand the OPs point but I have two observations: 1) the difficulty in assigning stars to recruits who haven't played a down of senior year football also applies just as much to actual rigorous recruiting evaluations by coaches; 2) the truly elite HS talent shows up earlier than senior year - but I also think these obvious four or five star HS talents reach their potential earlier and don't always develop as much in college, not just with skills but also physically. Look at Robert Nkemdiche. Still living off potential after really not doing much. Moreover, there is a huge difference between a top 10 five star and a top 300 four star. That's why Alabama, with the pick of the true cream of the crop and Saban's evaluation skills, has much fewer misses than Auburn, who loads up on highly rated four stars and hopes to hit on half, knowing that the other half will bust or transfer out. Can you imagine if we had 13 transfers out this offseason?

[JaketheSnake]

There's a big thread on this on the front page of the recruiting section.

[HogMantheIntruder]

There's a big thread on this on the front page of the recruiting section.

Are you talking about the Trey Flowers dilemma thread? It's different, but I could have worded the OP better. My contention is not just that these guys will pan out well in college. I believe that many of these guys will be rated higher than they currently are before NSD. It's not at all rare to see guys get bumped up to 4*'s after a great senior season (or getting offered by Bama), and my money's on more of our 3* commits making that jump vs your average 3* commit.

[Hawgar The Horrible]

The 3* guys presently committing to the Hogs have the skill sets necessary to achieve success with physical development. Having said that, and more importantly, they appear to have the mental acuity and work ethic necessary to commit to that development.

Dumb and lazy 3*'s will get a program nowhere in the SEC. It is blatantly obvious CBB ain't having or recruiting any of that nonsense. Fact is, not all 3*'s are equal either. Go get the smart ones that are hungry and can take some coaching.

[AirWarren]

Bret got solid commits to come to the horrid state of Wisconsin. Lots being from south Florida.

He is getting solid kids to come to the hardest place to recruit to in the SEC. I commend that and I get more and more excited about him as our leader.

This was a 5 year plan for coach Bielema. He is getting there.

[31to6]

How much does a 3* ranking mean at this point?

Not much. High 4 * and 5 * are more meaningful because it is much easier to pick out the truly exceptional athletes earlier. They tend to beat out upperclassmen for playing time and therefore build up a stronger resume, earlier. The risk with an "early bloomer" is that they may simply be ahead on physical development. If they are, they will under perform in college. But if they are not, and are already good enough for blue chip recognition, then look out..

3*'s really just means "solid D1 prospect". Picking the ones who will continue to develop is way more art than science--which is why good coaches with a track record for development like to personally evaluate such prospects over a period of time--ideally at camps in head-to-head competition with other high caliber athletes.

[JIHawg]

It's very simple.  A program can recruit and sign 4 and 5 stars, or it can make 4 and 5 stars.  We're one of the programs that make 4 and 5 stars.

[HogMantheIntruder]

It's very simple.  A program can recruit and sign 4 and 5 stars, or it can make 4 and 5 stars, or it can sign a bunch of 3*s before they become 4*s when they're seniors.  We're one of the programs that make 4 and 5 stars.

FIFY

[Großer Kriegschwein]

FIFY

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Ted77]

Don't concentrate on the number of stars a high school player has.  The coaching staff looks to fill needs on the team with players they call develop into a contributor on the team.....not players with the most stars.  Sometimes they happen to have multiple stars, sometimes they don't.

[The_Iceman]

If you can create a program with stability, high retention rates, and a high % redshirt program, you can win without the 4 and 5 stars. However, you have to be very particular in recruiting to make sure you get guys that haven't peaked too early in high school. You have to get high character guys that you can project going forward.

[JIHawg]

If you can create a program with stability, high retention rates, and a high % redshirt program, you can win without the 4 and 5 stars. However, you have to be very particular in recruiting to make sure you get guys that haven't peaked too early in high school. You have to get high character guys that you can project going forward.

Agree.  Additionally, while 4 and 5 stars are considered good gets for any program, they can have baggage.  Some who came through good high school programs with great weight rooms may have peaked early.  Some come with demands, which can be financial, or promises to start or get playing time.  Also some might be ego problems, being high school stars.  Programs can be built on redshirting, taking raw talent and getting them in a weight room, taking only high character players, favoring excelling in the classrooms, and hidden gems who just haven't been discovered yet.

[farmhawg]

This is really the earliest in the year that I have begun paying much attention to recruiting, and that's really just because it's been raining commits at such a frenetic pace, but isn't it a bit early to make a judgement on a recruit that hasn't played a down of their Senior year in HS? How much does a 3* ranking mean at this point? I know there are some who can project that kind of thing, but most of them are employed doing just that, and we actually have some of the best.

I can't wait to watch what these guys do this year. This recruiting season is going to be about keeping our commits rather than trying to fill up a class, IMO.

Seems like we are taking anyone who will commit right now, wonder if that is an indication on how they think we will do this year? If we thought we would have a good year surely we would wait and pick up higher talent.

[Muskliketusk]

The opinion of a buncha pencil pushers who ain't never coached a down of football verse that of HCBB don't mean a hill a beans. Stars ain't never mean nothing and ain't ever gonna in the future. We got kids the best talent evalutor in the conference wanted and that is good enough for me.

[The_Hog_Father]

Seems like we are taking anyone who will commit right now, wonder if that is an indication on how they think we will do this year? If we thought we would have a good year surely we would wait and pick up higher talent.

I am not sure I follow your thought process, but this is not at ALL what is going on with Our recruiting... These Recruits that you are slagging are already gaining the interest of other habitually elite programs. We will have to fight others to keep these "under valued" recruits. And have you had an opportunity to listen to some of these kids on RD's show and listen to their recruiting process? I think you would find it interesting... And that latest pick up from Florida is going to be a Beast if he continues to put in his due diligence... And to hear his excitement that he has for Our Program without ever visiting was a surprise to me, This Staff is doing work.  :razorback:

[Killean]

States that have more thorough evaluations also tend to overrate recruits.  Texas would be a prime example of this.  They receive great coaching and development in high school and there's not much room for improvement in college.  This is what torpedoed Texas more than anything.

Evaluating players at all levels is a crap shoot.  The NFL draft is a prime example of this.  Some players also will develop differently under different coaches. 

[SemperFi]

It's very simple.  A program can recruit and sign 4 and 5 stars, or it can make 4 and 5 stars.  We're one of the programs that make 4 and 5 stars.

This is the absolute truth about our program. Coach B is building a football factory up on the Hill.

[Cinco de Hogo]

It's very simple.  A program can recruit and sign 4 and 5 stars, or it can make 4 and 5 stars.  We're one of the programs that make 4 and 5 stars.

You are what you are until you change what you are.  Given time and commitment from  TPTB, CBB can change what we are...to a degree.  For instance if in a few years we are recruiting in the teens how much will that change who we are.  I don't know but it's gonna be interesting watching it unfold.

[longpig]

Seems like we are taking anyone who will commit right now, wonder if that is an indication on how they think we will do this year? If we thought we would have a good year surely we would wait and pick up higher talent.

Then you haven't been paying attention.  CBB said we were way ahead with the 2017 recruiting cycle months before the 2016 cycle ended.  We're not taking whoever, we're taking kids that we've been after for a long time.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Then you haven't been paying attention.  CBB said we were way ahead with the 2017 recruiting cycle months before the 2016 cycle ended.  We're not taking whoever, we're taking kids that we've been after for a long time.

Yet there was a long thread discussing the in and outs of getting on players earlier, offering them earlier, and taking commits earlier.  Seemed like in that thread most of the "in the know" crowd were totally against it.  Probably right up until CBB started doing it.

[PorkRinds]

Yet there was a long thread discussing the in and outs of getting on players earlier, offering them earlier, and taking commits earlier.  Seemed like in that thread most of the "in the know" crowd were totally against it.  Probably right up until CBB started doing it.

That's ignorant. No one has ever been against CBB getting on kids early and getting early commitments.  Plenty of folks pushed back against the hand wringing and armchair head coaches thinking they knew better than the head coach of the program though, so I guess I can see how you'd be confused.

[oldhawg]

The strategy does seem a little different this year, whether the emphasis on recruiting has changed or not.  Maybe getting solid recruits early on and keeping them, and not being left at the alter on signing day, will send a stronger message to future recruits ---- beyond my pay grade to know.   

[oldfart]

I think the recruits who have committed so far display strong athletic skills along with character and intelligence. im impressed by the scholastic performance of many of these kids. they show potential for development thru a strong nutrition and weight training program. retention rates should be high and we should begin to see strong junior and senior-led teams in the future

[Cinco de Hogo]

That's ignorant. No one has ever been against CBB getting on kids early and getting early commitments.  Plenty of folks pushed back against the hand wringing and armchair head coaches thinking they knew better than the head coach of the program though, so I guess I can see how you'd be confused.

Exhibit #1

[PorkRinds]

Exhibit #1

My post did not say what you think it said

[Hawgar The Horrible]

Yet there was a long thread discussing the in and outs of getting on players earlier, offering them earlier, and taking commits earlier.  Seemed like in that thread most of the "in the know" crowd were totally against it.  Probably right up until CBB started doing it.

Way too soon for revisionist history.

[Hawgar The Horrible]

Exhibit #1

Either that or you can't read.

[TNRazorbacker]

Stars matter. While you can't necessarily judge any one player better than another based purely on a star rating, statistically those teams that tend to recruit higher rated players on the whole win more and perhaps more notably have a much higher ceiling in "up" years. That said other factors are huge too, many of which I think are overlooked by your more talent rich programs. One that is huge is reduction of attrition. If you can scout solid kids with good character that stick with you I think you can make up a lot of the talent deficit on the front end. Bielema seems to do this really well and I think it will pay dividends. While I still think the likelihood of a championship caliber team will be rare, our ability to be consistently competitive with fewer down years will get much better.

[Cinco de Hogo]

My post did not say what you think it said

Oh it said exactly what I expected you to say. 

[Cinco de Hogo]

Way too soon for revisionist history.

Exhibit #2

[Cinco de Hogo]

Either that or you can't read.

Exhibit #3

[PorkRinds]

Oh it said exactly what I expected you to say.

That no one is against getting on kids early? No one has ever been against it. Not sure where your point actually comes from.  It's like you don't actually have one.

[Cinco de Hogo]

That no one is against getting on kids early? No one has ever been against it. Not sure where your point actually comes from.  It's like you don't actually have one.

Your wasting your time, I'm laughing at your duplicity even if a few of your friends don't get it.  You blast someone for saying we need to do those things but once we are doing them you say you've alway been for it.  I'm sure that NOW you will be able to describe your reactions in a different light but all I see is a person who wants to belittle other people and their opinions.

You could try just debating the issue instead of always attacking other poster with words like "ignorant".

[PorkRinds]

Your wasting your time, I'm laughing at your duplicity even if a few of your friends don't get it.  You blast someone for saying we need to do those things but once we are doing them you say you've alway been for it.  I'm sure that NOW you will be able to describe your reactions in a different light but all I see is a person who wants to belittle other people and their opinions.

You could try just debating the issue instead of always attacking other poster with words like "ignorant".

The butt hurt is so strong with this one that he's now making up opinions and assigning them to me just to defend himself!  No one is against getting on kids early.   You read what you want to read, obviously. 

[AirWarren]

I'm so ready for some football. I know we have some iffy areas, but one thing about coach Bielema, he can coach and develop. I am hoping for some butt hurt sec opponents after big wins by Arkansas. Maybe we can get that 9-10 win season this year.

I think our defense, offensive line, WRs, and a stable full of young backs are going to be really fun to watch.

[Cinco de Hogo]

The butt hurt is so strong with this one that he's now making up opinions and assigning them to me just to defend himself!  No one is against getting on kids early.   You read what you want to read, obviously.

So now your saying you weren't against what the fellow poster said in his post you just wanted the be an ass?  You and others attack that poster on a personal level for saying the exact thing I said.  Butt hurt...right, was that your intentions?  Weird!

[PorkRinds]

So now your saying you weren't against what the fellow poster said in his post you just wanted the be an ass?  You and others attack that poster on a personal level for saying the exact thing I said.  Butt hurt...right, was that your intentions?  Weird!

I was never against getting on kids early.  If you want to pretend That poster wasn't trolling, and wasn't irrational in the way he presented his arguments, that's up to you. If you want to pretend that anyone was against getting on kids early, that's up to you. But anyone that has read this forum for any amount of time knows you're making things up.

[tophawg19]

another thread screwed up. keep it on topic and quit with the personal stuff

[Deep Shoat]

So now your saying you weren't against what the fellow poster said in his post you just wanted the be an ass?  You and others attack that poster on a personal level for saying the exact thing I said.  Butt hurt...right, was that your intentions?  Weird!

No one is against getting on kids early.  The argument was never, "offer early bad".  The argument was always, "We offer once the evals are complete." 

In the previous 3 cycles, the evals weren't complete early because we hadn't been on these players for 4 years.  CBB and staff have seen many of these kids we are getting early commits from for 2, 3, and 4 seasons now.  They have had plenty of time to vet them.  They know who they want and are getting them committed early.

Just because you and HogNDas are incapable of understanding how the process works, and how it "speeds" up once a coach has been here multiple years doesn't mean everyone was against "offering early".  Due diligence is still being done, but longer relationships with schools, scouts, and players mean due diligence is completed earlier in the cycle.

[PorkRinds]

No one is against getting on kids early.  The argument was never, "offer early bad".  The argument was always, "We offer once the evals are complete." 

In the previous 3 cycles, the evals weren't complete early because we hadn't been on these players for 4 years.  CBB and staff have seen many of these kids we are getting early commits from for 2, 3, and 4 seasons now.  They have had plenty of time to vet them.  They know who they want and are getting them committed early.

Just because you and HogNDas are incapable of understanding how the process works, and how it "speeds" up once a coach has been here multiple years doesn't mean everyone was against "offering early".  Due diligence is still being done, but longer relationships with schools, scouts, and players mean due diligence is completed earlier in the cycle.

Exactly right

[GuvHog]

No one is against getting on kids early.  The argument was never, "offer early bad".  The argument was always, "We offer once the evals are complete." 

In the previous 3 cycles, the evals weren't complete early because we hadn't been on these players for 4 years.  CBB and staff have seen many of these kids we are getting early commits from for 2, 3, and 4 seasons now.  They have had plenty of time to vet them.  They know who they want and are getting them committed early.

Just because you and HogNDas are incapable of understanding how the process works, and how it "speeds" up once a coach has been here multiple years doesn't mean everyone was against "offering early".  Due diligence is still being done, but longer relationships with schools, scouts, and players mean due diligence is completed earlier in the cycle.

Wow! Talk about cutting that off at the pass! Good post.

[farmhawg]

This is the absolute truth about our program. Coach B is building a football factory up on the Hill.

Crown him when he starts winning at that level. You guys must love mediocrity.....

[Cinco de Hogo]

Wow! Talk about cutting that off at the pass! Good post.

If that is what they were saying it would be but its not, so no pass here. 

I'm still laughing.

[AirWarren]

Crown him when he starts winning at that level. You guys must love mediocrity.....

We have been mediocre since we won the "national championship" back in the 60's. Come jump in the pool with the rest of the realists. The water is fine.

[Hoggish1]

The 3* guys presently committing to the Hogs have the skill sets necessary to achieve success with physical development. Having said that, and more importantly, they appear to have the mental acuity and work ethic necessary to commit to that development.

Dumb and lazy 3*'s will get a program nowhere in the SEC. It is blatantly obvious CBB ain't having or recruiting any of that nonsense. Fact is, not all 3*'s are equal either. Go get the smart ones that are hungry and can take some coaching.

^ been saying this for years.

[Hawgar The Horrible]

You guys must love mediocrity.....

Nope. Have never cared for your opinions at all.