The Trey Flowers Dilemma

[bphi11ips]

I tend to think the staff could do a better job of pursuing the blue chip guys. I'm probably in the minority though.

That's an understandable conclusion this year at this time, but last year it's not.  If we're honest, Bielema and staff did a helluva job last year and got their teeth kicked in on signing day with several players.  That wasn't their fault.  Read the "bag man" article. 

Back in the day, all we followed were the "blue chip" recruits, and you seldom heard of them until their senior season was over.  You evaluated players by their offer sheets.  Today, 500 players pay $60 each to run a 30 yard sprint for Jim Harbaugh.  The swag at these satellite camps is hilarious.  Nike sponsors an event pretentiously called "The Opening". 

If you're looking for the swag and the hats on announcement day, I don't think you'll see too many Razorbacks hats picked up.  There have been exceptions, but they fit the "uncommon" category, too.  Arkansas just doesn't have "the brand" those kids are looking for.  If you want to get an education and work your butt off to get to the "next level", the Hogs might currently be for you.

[Biggus Piggus]

The 24/7 database for 2017 football recruiting includes 291 4- and 5-star players. And 150 of those are currently committed. Who knows how many will reopen recruitment between now and winter.

The 24/7 database for 2016 included 358 4- and 5-star players. In 2015, 388. In 2014, 422.

Surely, in the preceding June for those years, the numbers of 4- and 5-star players was significantly lower than where they ended. The numbers probably will be higher come next February. It's obvious that a lot of players have not been seriously evaluated yet.

But I also wonder whether recruitniks are trying to reduce the number of 4- and 5-star rated prospects. Right now, only 4% of the prospects in the 24/7 database are 4/5's. Last year 5% were rated that high, and in the two years before that, 6%.

I expect talent levels to be cyclical with ups and downs, not in a linear downtrend.  Whatever, looks like the recruitnik world has a highly variable effort level from year to year.

Number of 3-star players in the 24/7 database

2017 - 1,398 (22% of total)
2016 - 1,768 (22% of total)
2015 - 1,705 (24% of total)
2014 - 1,411 (21% of total)

Number of players 2-star or below in the 24/7 database

2017 - 4,818
2016 - 5,764
2015 - 4,917
2014 - 5,026

The 24/7 database includes information not only from its own recruit evaluations but also everything listed by other major recruiting services.

Based on recent years' numbers, one would expect the number of 2017 prospects to increase by 5-8% through the rest of the year. My guess is we will see 70-90 more 4- and 5-stars, 140-170 more 3-star recruits added, as the recruiting world evaluates more players.

Arkansas certainly needs to sign a few 4/5 players every year, but it also needs some of those 2- and 3-star players to play like 4/5's. That always has been an essential part of Razorback football success, when it happens. Failure, when it doesn't.

[LJHOG]

That's an understandable conclusion this year at this time, but last year it's not.  If we're honest, Bielema and staff did a helluva job last year and got their teeth kicked in on signing day with several players.  That wasn't their fault.  Read the "bag man" article. 

So what you are saying without realizing it is that until we employee an effective "bag man" our list of SEC championships will remain at zero.

[Biggus Piggus]

I sure hope we don't have any idiots come on here, read some of these threads, and decide they've got to help Arkansas get to the next level.

[Prestworthy]

I sure hope we don't have any idiots come on here, read some of these threads, and decide they've got to help Arkansas get to the next level.

What if those "idiots" (I'd consider them investors) already exist?

[ricepig]

What if those "idiots" (I'd consider them investors) already exist?

Then they aren't 4* material, obviously they aren't very good at it.

[Oklahawg]

Steef, this thread is void of the posters we often have to babysit. No need for it to disappear!

I suspect part of the problem with recruiting fans on HV is related to their own experience watching HS football. Arkansas HS football is well behind most or all neighboring states. Missouri, maybe, is even with Arkansas, despite what St. Louis, Kansas City and Columbia metro areas might produce.

It is rare for a Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow, or Owasso (OK) sophomore to play much. There are too many bodies in the grades in front of them and they have worked hard while having to wait in line. Opportunity is often found because of a hole in the depth chart, not because the younger player pushes the issue. I spent time each week with an Owasso graduate who played minor league baseball (signed out of HS). He didn't get recruited for college or looked at by pro scouts until mid-March of his senior year because the team had too many good players for him to get consistent reps when the scouts happened to be in attendance.

Owasso typically has 70-80 tryout for the baseball team heading into 9th grade. They run two 9th grade teams, a JV team, and a varsity squad. They carry a total of 70-ish boys for four grades. The area schools - smaller classifications or private schools - benefit greatly as parents want to provide their child a chance to play, or play earlier.

Like hoops, baseball talent is easier to develop away from your HS practice (almost has to, now). You don't have to be from a monster HS program to make it in hoops or baseball. But, you still need that in football.

Few of us realize the size of many of these HS programs CBB is recruiting. The RB from FL was a backup last year. That he was behind a fine RB doesn't mean he isn't a stud himself. He hasn't shown 5-star skills/stats yet because he hasn't had to. D1 coaches can visit the elite, large-classification programs in TX, LA, FL, etc., and find a lot of talent lurking on the JV as sophomores, or as backups as juniors.

In baseball, there are 14-year olds having Tommy John surgery - they were overthrown from age six by coaches wanting to win. When they struggle to regain form as a HS player they are replaced in the pipeline by a kid who was better taught mechanically and maybe didn't play an aggressive schedule from the moment they were dropped out of the womb. Time on the mound was carefully monitored by coaches (if not parents). Maybe they matured physically later than the kid with TJ surgery - youth sports is driven by the "athletic" talent until about 6/7 grade when puberty becomes the great equalizer. Then, post-puberty, you want the kid who received top-notch training and then grows into the body of a college player.

Some of these recruits are still maturing. We have a nice history at UA of recruiting an "undersized" player who continued to grow during his senior season and beyond.  DeQuinta Jones committed early to Michigan, but continued growing. He added a couple of inches and 40 pounds to early website measureables. Michigan moved on to a player they liked better when UA came calling for Jones - they were not aware how much he had grown. These things happen.

[Prestworthy]

Steef, this thread is void of the posters we often have to babysit. No need for it to disappear!

I suspect part of the problem with recruiting fans on HV is related to their own experience watching HS football. Arkansas HS football is well behind most or all neighboring states. Missouri, maybe, is even with Arkansas, despite what St. Louis, Kansas City and Columbia metro areas might produce.

It is rare for a Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow, or Owasso (OK) sophomore to play much. There are too many bodies in the grades in front of them and they have worked hard while having to wait in line. Opportunity is often found because of a hole in the depth chart, not because the younger player pushes the issue. I spent time each week with an Owasso graduate who played minor league baseball (signed out of HS). He didn't get recruited for college or looked at by pro scouts until mid-March of his senior year because the team had too many good players for him to get consistent reps when the scouts happened to be in attendance.

Owasso typically has 70-80 tryout for the baseball team heading into 9th grade. They run two 9th grade teams, a JV team, and a varsity squad. They carry a total of 70-ish boys for four grades. The area schools - smaller classifications or private schools - benefit greatly as parents want to provide their child a chance to play, or play earlier.

Like hoops, baseball talent is easier to develop away from your HS practice (almost has to, now). You don't have to be from a monster HS program to make it in hoops or baseball. But, you still need that in football.

Few of us realize the size of many of these HS programs CBB is recruiting. The RB from FL was a backup last year. That he was behind a fine RB doesn't mean he isn't a stud himself. He hasn't shown 5-star skills/stats yet because he hasn't had to. D1 coaches can visit the elite, large-classification programs in TX, LA, FL, etc., and find a lot of talent lurking on the JV as sophomores, or as backups as juniors.

In baseball, there are 14-year olds having Tommy John surgery - they were overthrown from age six by coaches wanting to win. When they struggle to regain form as a HS player they are replaced in the pipeline by a kid who was better taught mechanically and maybe didn't play an aggressive schedule from the moment they were dropped out of the womb. Time on the mound was carefully monitored by coaches (if not parents). Maybe they matured physically later than the kid with TJ surgery - youth sports is driven by the "athletic" talent until about 6/7 grade when puberty becomes the great equalizer. Then, post-puberty, you want the kid who received top-notch training and then grows into the body of a college player.

Some of these recruits are still maturing. We have a nice history at UA of recruiting an "undersized" player who continued to grow during his senior season and beyond.  DeQuinta Jones committed early to Michigan, but continued growing. He added a couple of inches and 40 pounds to early website measureables. Michigan moved on to a player they liked better when UA came calling for Jones - they were not aware how much he had grown. These things happen.

Good points.

[bphi11ips]

So what you are saying without realizing it is that until we employee an effective "bag man" our list of SEC championships will remain at zero.

Not true.  What I'm suggesting is that Bret Bielema doesn't want athletes and families involved in the bag man bidding wars, and as a result, his recruiting rankings will suffer.  He won 3 B1G championships with classes averaging in the 40's.

[Wahls]

In baseball, there are 14-year olds having Tommy John surgery - they were overthrown from age six by coaches wanting to win.

I see and hear this thrown out all the time.

I was privileged to play on some really good teams with some folks who were a whole lot better than me that played college and pro baseball and I don't know of a single person who has ever had any sort of elbow or shoulder injury from throwing a baseball that required surgery in high school or younger.

I know several who have had elbow, knee, shoulder, and ankle surgeries from football that were high school aged and younger.

Where are all these 14 year olds getting TJ's at?

[bphi11ips]

I see and hear this thrown out all the time.

I was privileged to play on some really good teams with some folks who were a whole lot better than me that played college and pro baseball and I don't know of a single person who has ever had any sort of elbow or shoulder injury from throwing a baseball that required surgery in high school or younger.

I know several who have had elbow, knee, shoulder, and ankle surgeries from football that were high school aged and younger.

Where are all these 14 year olds getting TJ's at?

I know three boys who had Tommy John surgery before they were 17. 

[hawginbigd1]

Let's table all this star talk etc. until about October when the re-ranks start getting close to serious.

[Prestworthy]

Not true.  What I'm suggesting is that Bret Bielema doesn't want athletes and families involved in the bag man bidding wars, and as a result, his recruiting rankings will suffer.  He won 3 B1G championships with classes averaging in the 40's.

And he would have a shot at winning the B1G again this year if he was in the B1G.  SEC is a much tougher league.  He's not in cheese country anymore, and there's a reason for it. 

[ricepig]

And he would have a shot at winning the B1G again this year if he was in the B1G.  SEC is a much tougher league.  He's not in cheese country anymore, and there's a reason for it. 

Correct, be wanted a bigger challenge.

[Deep Shoat]

I tend to think the staff could do a better job of pursuing the blue chip guys. I'm probably in the minority though.

Other than waving hundies around like hankies in a Delta church, how is Arkansas going to do something we have never been able to do?

[ricepig]

Other than waving hundies around like hankies in a Delta church, how is Arkansas going to do something we have never been able to do?

Well, I've read one poster say we just had to "think we can" and they'll come a running.

[bphi11ips]

And he would have a shot at winning the B1G again this year if he was in the B1G.  SEC is a much tougher league.  He's not in cheese country anymore, and there's a reason for it. 

The B1G is much better than this board gives it credit for being, especially at the top. 

I never said Arkansas won't win the SEC without bag men.  That was another poster putting words in my mouth.  Do the most successful teams use a herd of bag men? Probably.  If that's what it takes, then I prefer the Liberty Bowl. 

[Deep Shoat]

Well, I've read one poster say we just had to "think we can" and they'll come a running.

[Karma]

In answer to the original post - yes, I would like for all of our 3 stars to outperform their ranking and become high NFL draft picks.  Making that the strategy is a different debate.

[Wahls]

I know three boys who had Tommy John surgery before they were 17. 

Personally? Read on the internet? What sort of sample size are we looking at?

[Biggus Piggus]

Then they aren't 4* material, obviously they aren't very good at it.

Sheer happiness.

[ArkansasI]

Hog fans, we have reason to be happy with the players and the team that the coaching staff is putting together. The players appear to be of high character, our football team is becoming consistently competitive, and our facilities are second to none.

Until Arkansas's population doubles, the challenge to win recruiting rankings will continue. If Raulerson is serious about football - and I believe his choice of Arkansas proves he is, then his transfer is huge. The prepsters that are committed are talented, and Arkansas won't ask most of them to play for 2-3 years.

CBB is building a sustainable program. We aren't quite there yet, but we should be grateful for the work being done.

[HawgnCorona]

Does anyone think that Jadeveon Clowney a 5* athlete and #1 draft pick is a bust so far? That said Im not so sure it does matter as much as work ethic, desire, mental toughness to be the best. Regardless of your star rating. But I get it though, stars are for fans.

[Pork Twain]

Man this arguement never gets old, or changes

[Prestworthy]

Other than waving hundies around like hankies in a Delta church, how is Arkansas going to do something we have never been able to do?

How does Tennessee do it? Ole Miss? Penn State? Michigan State? Texas A&M? South Carolina? TCU? Nebraska?

All teams that finished higher than the hogs in composite rankings and are, for the most part, on a similar playing field at the moment. Maybe they have better recruiters? A better system of recruiting? I think we sell ourselves short. Recruiting is an art. It will take a team like the hogs thinking outside the box and getting creative, but it can be done. Look at Nebraska and Colorado in the 90's. They found a way to get the kids there.

[Wahls]

Man this arguement never gets old, or changes

It's so riveting, the same 5 people feel the need to bring it up once a week.

[bphi11ips]

Personally? Read on the internet? What sort of sample size are we looking at?

Personally, buttmunch. Small sample size. Two are left handed, who every amateur travel team baseball coach thinks should pitch, whether or not they can walk and chew gum.

[pfrg999]

Your micro aggressions are triggering me.

Safe spaces Safe spaces....

[HognitiveDissonance]

3-star recruits like Flowers tend to be very productive collegiate players---as juniors and seniors, when they are 22 year old men playing against 18 year frosh(sometimes)

So, absolutely you can field a solid team with 3-star guys, provided you let them mature.

Ideally, though, you want 5-star guys like Hunter Henry and Alex Collins who can play right away----and also get better year to year as they also mature.

This really isn't a hard thing to understand. Ideally, you want every recruit to be a 5-star player. If you can't do that, you want 4-star guys...if you can't get that, you'll try 3-star guys...and so on and on.

[Oklahawg]

Personally, buttmunch. Small sample size. Two are left handed, who every amateur travel team baseball coach thinks should pitch, whether or not they can walk and chew gum.

I have watched a 10-year old and an 11-year old have their arm go bad in a single game. The parent had them pick up for a tournament one weekend and throw 6-8 innings the previous weekend and the parent didn't tell the league coach...who then had them go pitch on Monday night.

Inning One: ball had a zip to it
Inning Two: ball was dead
Inning Three: ball had a hump like a slow-pitch softball pitch
Inning Four: kid is crying in the dugout because his arm hurt.

Neither pitcher has had surgery to my knowledge but they no longer throw hard enough to pitch in tournaments.

As for actual surgeries, the local HS coach told me he has two JV kids who have already been operated on.

[Oklahawg]

Related to the thread, a kid my son used to play with is "young" for his grade (my son will be in 6th grade). Kid is only 10 in USSSA baseball years but plays "up" to 11 to stay with his grade. He is a starting RB and backup QB on one of the better youth football teams in NE OK. He is as fast as any runner in the grade.

He is (likely, last I heard) being held back for sports reasons. Plain and simple, Mom and Dad want him to be THE ONE. He is a straight A student, so this isn't academics.

Remember Knile Davis? Hurt in HS, but he didn't turn 18 until he was playing for UA! Age matters in this discussion as well.

[Arkamedes]

First of all, I admit I am not a professional talent evaluator. If I looked at 200 highly talented high school football players and was told that my life depended on correctly dividing them into groups of 3, 4, and 5 stars, this would probably be my final post. That being said, I am not on the Razorback staff. However, we do have three current or former head coaches on our staff and several more with NFL coaching experience. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they know how to evaluate talent. They know what they are looking for in a football player. They know what our needs are as a team. They probably know at least as much as the people handing out the stars. There is probably even a small chance that they will one day know as much as some of our fans! They go all over the country and watch these players perform, talk to their coaches and teachers, do background checks, and compare them to other players. I cannot guarantee you they are making all the right decisions but I trust they know what they are doing. My personal opinion is that when it comes to seeing what someone is made of, I'm going to go with the opinion of the ones using a microscope and not the ones using a telescope. Woo Pig!

[Nipsey Mussle]

3-star recruits like Flowers tend to be very productive collegiate players---as juniors and seniors, when they are 22 year old men playing against 18 year frosh(sometimes)

So, absolutely you can field a solid team with 3-star guys, provided you let them mature.

Ideally, though, you want 5-star guys like Hunter Henry and Alex Collins who can play right away----and also get better year to year as they also mature.

This really isn't a hard thing to understand. Ideally, you want every recruit to be a 5-star player. If you can't do that, you want 4-star guys...if you can't get that, you'll try 3-star guys...and so on and on.

Well said and very true, I might add. I think the hurt feelings come in when people apply a personal look at the Hogs and the lack of high recruiting ratings. I don't even get in to that, I just know that if we look at the last 15 years of recruiting, there will be a higher % of 5 stars who make an NFL roster as opposed to the % of 3 stars who end up making it that far. The argument of "This particular player was a 2 star and turned out great, thus stars must not matter!" is beyond absurd.

[carolinahogger]

We've got 15 recruits so far, for the 2017 class. Most of them are 3 stars.

The inevitable is occurring.

"WE CAN'T WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH 3 STARS!!"
"ALABAMA (or...fill in the blank) DOESN'T DO THIS!!"

etc.

I will admit, this year's recruiting class is DIFFERENT from any other class that Bret has built.

However, the argument that 3 stars can't become SEC-beating athletes....runs smack dab into Trey Flowers.

Google "anecdotal evidence fallacy" and "straw man argument".  Your straw man is that someone is arguing that a 3 star guy can't become an SEC beating athlete.  I have never seen anyone make that argument here.

Then note that we didn't win even an SECW title, much less a NC with Flowers.  Why not make the argument that we should fill our class with unrecruited zero stars?  Because Burlsworth.

[ricepig]

Well said and very true, I might add. I think the hurt feelings come in when people apply a personal look at the Hogs and the lack of high recruiting ratings. I don't even get in to that, I just know that if we look at the last 15 years of recruiting, there will be a higher % of 5 stars who make an NFL roster as opposed to the % of 3 stars who end up making it that far. The argument of "This particular player was a 2 star and turned out great, thus stars must not matter!" is beyond absurd.

Good thing we're not in the NFL......

[Deep Shoat]

I explained this in another thread, but I'll try it again here.

The reason stars don't matter is this:
Every swinging Tom, Dick, and Harry can identify the elite players in a class by the third workout of their sophomore year.  5 stars are easy.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

Almost no one can identify the guys who are going to blow up once they get on campus.  A very few elite coaches are capable of projecting 17 year olds and seeing their real potential out of the great, unwashed mass of 3 star talent.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

2 stars are simply unevaluated, therefore stars don't matter.

The recruiting services created the star system as a way to separate yokels from their money. 

That is all.

[Prestworthy]

How does Tennessee do it? Ole Miss? Penn State? Michigan State? Texas A&M? South Carolina? TCU? Nebraska?

All teams that finished higher than the hogs in composite rankings and are, for the most part, on a similar playing field at the moment. Maybe they have better recruiters? A better system of recruiting? I think we sell ourselves short. Recruiting is an art. It will take a team like the hogs thinking outside the box and getting creative, but it can be done. Look at Nebraska and Colorado in the 90's. They found a way to get the kids there.

anyone?

[Prestworthy]

I explained this in another thread, but I'll try it again here.

The reason stars don't matter is this:
Every swinging Tom, Dick, and Harry can identify the elite players in a class by the third workout of their sophomore year.  5 stars are easy.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

Almost no one can identify the guys who are going to blow up once they get on campus.  A very few elite coaches are capable of projecting 17 year olds and seeing their real potential out of the great, unwashed mass of 3 star talent.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

2 stars are simply unevaluated, therefore stars don't matter.

The recruiting services created the star system as a way to separate yokels from their money. 

That is all.

The star system has basically predicted the first two rounds of the draft.  See for yourself.

[Razorbackers]

anyone?

Well, Tenn, Penn State, Michigan State, TAMU, and TCU have much much larger in state populations. Plus they're all closer to other metro areas than us.

We know how Ole Miss did it.

South Carolina has more people and is also closer to major metro areas.

Nebraska...idk?

[Hugo Bezdek]

I don't think anyone will argue that you can win consistently without talent. To me the question about star ratings is what comes first, the winning or the ratings. We've all seen it, Alabama or Texas offers a guy and his star ratings go up. Some guys are obvious talents, but most are a judgement call. Right now I'm willing to believe, based on his record of putting players in the NFL, that Coach B can identify and develop talent. If that's true then the wins will follow and the star givers will know that when Arkansas offers a player he must be high quality recruit. So far we've seen steady improvement in the win column year over year. The proof come with more wins.

[King Kong]

anyone?

Similar playing fields? All those school with the exception of Nebraska (which isn't a good example by their recruiting rankings or field performance over the last 20 years) are within 300 miles of a major recruiting population.

Not that hard to figure out.

I think it is worth mentioning Arkansas is the only school to have a top 5 finish out of those schools since 2005.

[Prestworthy]

Well, Tenn, Penn State, Michigan State, TAMU, and TCU have much much larger in state populations. Plus they're all closer to other metro areas than us.

We know how Ole Miss did it.

South Carolina has more people and is also closer to major metro areas.

Nebraska...idk?

Then why doesn't Vanderbilt recruit better?  Maryland?  Virginia? Virginia Tech?  Georgia Tech?

That's a flawed argument.

[Prestworthy]

Similar playing fields? All those school with the exception of Nebraska (which isn't a good example by their recruiting rankings or field performance over the last 20 years) are within 300 miles of a major recruiting population.

Not that hard to figure out.

I think it is worth mentioning Arkansas is the only school to have a top 5 finish out of those schools since 2005.

I'll add more: UNC, Pitt, Cal, Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern, UCF....

All near major cities or recruiting hotbeds.  Why didn't they recruit well?

Here's my point: Some schools know how to recruit and do it well.  Others just don't.  You can blame it on location, but that wouldn't explain how coaches can recruit to Columbia, SC or Lincoln, NE. 

[JaketheSnake]

SC has made their recent living off in state talent.  UA's good years seem to always come when the good in state crop is in the system a couple years.  Nebraska still holds a lot of water for the Midwest area and has had a national brand for years. They are not near as big now and their results show that.   

I'll add more: UNC, Pitt, Cal, Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern, UCF....

All near major cities or recruiting hotbeds.  Why didn't they recruit well?

Here's my point: Some schools know how to recruit and do it well.  Others just don't.  You can blame it on location, but that wouldn't explain how coaches can recruit to Columbia, SC or Lincoln, NE. 

[LRHawg]

If you are going to complain about us getting low 3 stars, at least wait until the end rankings to see if these guys are even low 3 stars then

Agreed. I realize it's the off-season, but let's wait and see how this new tack in direction plays out. After being left at the altar last season with several recruits, I think many of us would be a little unsettled if Bielema didn't try and shake things up a little bit. At least he appears to be learning from his mistakes and adapting. One thing is for sure, all these commits has made a normally boring recruiting time of year exciting!

[Razorbackers]

Then why doesn't Vanderbilt recruit better?  Maryland?  Virginia? Virginia Tech?  Georgia Tech?

That's a flawed argument.

No it's not.

LSU gets great recruits because Louisiana makes a lot of players. So does Texas and Florida.

But why isn't Rice better at football?

I don't know. Lots of reasons. I guess Texas doesn't make any athletes at all.

[ricepig]

I'll add more: UNC, Pitt, Cal, Baylor, Louisville, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern, UCF....

All near major cities or recruiting hotbeds.  Why didn't they recruit well?

Here's my point: Some schools know how to recruit and do it well.  Others just don't.  You can blame it on location, but that wouldn't explain how coaches can recruit to Columbia, SC or Lincoln, NE. 

Lubbock is near what hotbed, New Mexico? Baylor has just lost 5 4*, they've recruited well at times. SC has a lot more players than us, and is a lot closer to Georgia and Florida talent. The others are programs that aren't producing consistent results, pretty simple, actually.

[Wahls]

I have watched a 10-year old and an 11-year old have their arm go bad in a single game. The parent had them pick up for a tournament one weekend and throw 6-8 innings the previous weekend and the parent didn't tell the league coach...who then had them go pitch on Monday night.

Ok, now that is stupid. That's probably why I never saw surgeries with the kids I knew - that stuff didn't go on.

[Oklahawg]

Ok, now that is stupid. That's probably why I never saw surgeries with the kids I knew - that stuff didn't go on.

There are coaches who told me, thinking I approved, that they picked up a kid for a year to "burn him," allowing the coach to save his better pitchers from too many innings. He saw the pickup as "good enough to win." Horrible mentality.

[Oklahawg]

I explained this in another thread, but I'll try it again here.

The reason stars don't matter is this:
Every swinging Tom, Dick, and Harry can identify the elite players in a class by the third workout of their sophomore year.  5 stars are easy.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

Almost no one can identify the guys who are going to blow up once they get on campus.  A very few elite coaches are capable of projecting 17 year olds and seeing their real potential out of the great, unwashed mass of 3 star talent.  Therefore, stars don't matter.

2 stars are simply unevaluated, therefore stars don't matter.

The recruiting services created the star system as a way to separate yokels from their money. 

That is all.

You get it! Ding-ding-ding - we have a winner.