Nationals got what they deserved.....

[Razorback_Mack]

For not pitching Strasburg. I can't stand the Cardinals, but it was idiotic to shut him down like that. The opinions are almost unanimous amomg veteran MLB pitchers that the more you pitch, the stronger your arm gets. If they only wanted him to pitch a certain number of innings, then spread it out and leave 4 or 5 starts for the postseason. Just my opinion...

[bsking]

I think they were stupid for shutting him down, but I wouldn't say they got what they deserved.  Even without him they were the better team, they just couldn't clutch up when they needed it.

[Arkiehawg (kingfish0318)]

I think they were stupid for shutting him down, but I wouldn't say they got what they deserved.  Even without him they were the better team, they just couldn't clutch up when they needed it.

Better teams are the ones that win in the clutch....

[bsking]

Better teams are the ones that win in the clutch....

Teams that are more clutch win in the clutch.

[Arkiehawg (kingfish0318)]

How's that off season going for ya?

[grayhawg]

I think they were stupid for shutting him down, but I wouldn't say they got what they deserved.  Even without him they were the better team, they just couldn't clutch up when they needed it.

They blew a 6 to 0 lead, no way they were better than the team that overcome that 6 to 0 lead to win.

[Razorback_Mack]

Teams that are more clutch win in the clutch.

I agree. I remember hearing the great Don Sutton say, "the 162 game season is the real test," during a braves broadcast. To me being clutch in baseball is just being hot at the right time and getting some breaks. It doesn't mean your the better baseball team.

[dacskc]

The Cards don't deserve any credit! Better to be lucky than good! They scratched out 9 clutch runs after being down 6-0 against a better team! They handily outscored the better team over the span of five games as well winning 2/3 on the road. That is some clutchy luck! Or lucky clutch...I forget the cliches.

The Cards have apparently "lucked" into more good fortune than any other team in history. At some point, people have got to realize that managing to win the regular season means nada.  The Cards figured that out in '04. You just have to be good enough during the season and the best team in post-season because that's how it works. (if that's a problem the complaint should be directed at MLB) Luck or being clutch has nothing to do with it. It isn't the crapshoot some are making it out to be. Having patience at the plate is not luck. Knowing how the system works and managing and playing that way is not luck.

The Nats shutting down their ace was stupid, but all the excuse making against the Cards is getting old. Do people really think you get to the post-season 7 times in 11 years by being fortunate? Will the Cards "get lucky" again facing the Giants? Who knows? If they win, it won't be because of luck and if they lose (which could easily happen) it won't be due to anything other than getting outplayed by an excellent Giants team. All this "luck," "clutch" and "baseball gods" nonsense boils down to being well-managed, well-coached, having a good front office, knowing and doing your job and playing all 27 outs. I'm not saying other teams don't have these qualities, it's just that the Cards know to utilize their resources better than just about anyone else. But if you call that "luck," I guess we'll take it.

I think the Nats will learn from this experience and they will be contenders for some time.

[Razorback_Mack]

They blew a 6 to 0 lead, no way they were better than the team that overcome that 6 to 0 lead to win.

That's not the point. The point is if they played that series 10 times the nationals would win more than they would lose. Thus, their the better team. The cardinals are the clutch team, which is what matters in the postseason. That's like saying a team that won 110 games isn't better than a 85 win wild card team, because they got beat 3 games to 2 in a best of 5 series. Makes no sense.

[dacskc]

I remember hearing the great Don Sutton say, "the 162 game season is the real test," during a braves broadcast.

Well, that statement explains a lot. It would make sense that the Braves would value the regular season more. Perhaps that's the problem.

[grayhawg]

The Cards don't deserve any credit! Better to be lucky than good! They scratched out 9 clutch runs after being down 6-0 against a better team! They handily outscored the better team over the span of five games as well winning 2/3 on the road. That is some clutchy luck! Or lucky clutch...I forget the cliches.

The Cards have apparently "lucked" into more good fortune than any other team in history. At some point, people have got to realize that managing to win the regular season means nada.  The Cards figured that out in '04. You just have to be good enough during the season and the best team in post-season because that's how it works. (if that's a problem the complaint should be directed at MLB) Luck or being clutch has nothing to do with it. It isn't the crapshoot some are making it out to be. Having patience at the plate is not luck. Knowing how the system works and managing and playing that way is not luck.

The Nats shutting down their ace was stupid, but all the excuse making against the Cards is getting old. Do people really think you get to the post-season 7 times in 11 years by being fortunate? Will the Cards "get lucky" again facing the Giants? Who knows? If they win, it won't be because of luck and if they lose (which could easily happen) it won't be due to anything other than getting outplayed by an excellent Giants team. All this "luck," "clutch" and "baseball gods" nonsense boils down to being well-managed, well-coached, having a good front office, knowing and doing your job and playing all 27 outs. I'm not saying other teams don't have these qualities, it's just that the Cards know to utilize their resources better than just about anyone else. But if you call that "luck," I guess we'll take it.

I think the Nats will learn from this experience and they will be contenders for some time.

That's not the point. The point is if they played that series 10 times the nationals would win more than they would lose. Thus, their the better team. The cardinals are the clutch team, which is what matters in the postseason. That's like saying a team that won 110 games isn't better than a 85 win wild card team, because they got beat 3 games to 2 in a best of 5 series. Makes no sense.

The Cardinals won 3 of 5.

[dacskc]

That's not the point. The point is if they played that series 10 times the nationals would win more than they would lose. Thus, their the better team. The cardinals are the clutch team, which is what matters in the postseason. That's like saying a team that won 110 games isn't better than a 85 win wild card team, because they got beat 3 games to 2 in a best of 5 series. Makes no sense.

That IS the point, actually. They don't give WS trophies to the regular season winner. The Cards didn't get one in '04 for winning 105 games. To be the best you have to do it when it matters, not when it doesn't.

[Razorback_Mack]

The Cards don't deserve any credit! Better to be lucky than good! They scratched out 9 clutch runs after being down 6-0 against a better team! They handily outscored the better team over the span of five games as well winning 2/3 on the road. That is some clutchy luck! Or lucky clutch...I forget the cliches.

The Cards have apparently "lucked" into more good fortune than any other team in history. At some point, people have got to realize that managing to win the regular season means nada.  The Cards figured that out in '04. You just have to be good enough during the season and the best team in post-season because that's how it works. (if that's a problem the complaint should be directed at MLB) Luck or being clutch has nothing to do with it. It isn't the crapshoot some are making it out to be. Having patience at the plate is not luck. Knowing how the system works and managing and playing that way is not luck.

The Nats shutting down their ace was stupid, but all the excuse making against the Cards is getting old. Do people really think you get to the post-season 7 times in 11 years by being fortunate? Will the Cards "get lucky" again facing the Giants? Who knows? If they win, it won't be because of luck and if they lose (which could easily happen) it won't be due to anything other than getting outplayed by an excellent Giants team. All this "luck," "clutch" and "baseball gods" nonsense boils down to being well-managed, well-coached, having a good front office, knowing and doing your job and playing all 27 outs. I'm not saying other teams don't have these qualities, it's just that the Cards know to utilize their resources better than just about anyone else. But if you call that "luck," I guess we'll take it.

I think the Nats will learn from this experience and they will be contenders for some time.

So the cardinals wanted to be in a 1 game playoff for their season? Makes no sense. MLB teams try to win as many games as possible during the regular season, including the cards. Props to the cardinals, they got it done. Who on this board wouldn't take Brady over Manning? Why? Cause Brady's more clutch. That's what matters the cards are clutch.

[bsking]

Dear Lord Cardinal fans are literally bigger homers than any fans in any sport.

If you HONESTLY believe the Cardinals were the best team in the MLB last year, you are naive.

If you think they're the best team this year, you are naive.

[bsking]

It is not irrational logic to say that a better team lost.  It happens. 

[Razorback_Mack]

The Cardinals won 3 of 5.

I know that man.

[bsking]

McGwire didn't juice either did he?

[dacskc]

They did what they needed to do during the season. They didn't "want" to be in a one game playoff. They lost a ton of one run and extra inning games (that's not clutch, lol) They withstood injuries and departures and still hung in there. The regular season is about putting yourself in a position to win when it matters. It's the exact opposite of what the Nats did. The better "team" (not the one with more superstar pop) did win.

[Razorback_Mack]

It is not irrational logic to say that a better team lost.  It happens.

Every day, in every sport! That's where the terms upset, underdog, and Cinderella come from.

[dacskc]

McGwire didn't juice either did he?

Lol. What does that have to do with this?

Dear Lord Cardinal fans are literally bigger homers than any fans in any sport.

Says the Braves fan attempting to rationalize yet another post-season failure.

[bsking]

Every day, in every sport! That's where the terms upset, underdog, and Cinderella come from.

So you think that the better team wins at the same clip in all sports?

[bsking]

Lol. What does that have to do with this?

Just curious.  Do you?

[bsking]

Says the Braves fan attempting to rationalize yet another post-season failure.

I've been saying that for a decade.

[ucahogfan]

It is not irrational logic to say that a better team lost.  It happens.

You can't say that bsking!  Don't you know that the Cards are the greatest team ever?  It can't be about luck for them the last couple of years.  It's not like the Cards lucked into the 2011 postseason because of one of the greatest September collapses of all time.  It's not like the only reason the Cards made the 2012 playoffs is because the MLB changed the postseason format.  It's not like the best defense in the NL made 3 errors in a do-or-die game.  It's not like they are the benefactors of the biggest collapse in a do-or-die game in MLB postseason history.  Come on, luck never factors in.  The better team always win even though the Cards are the only playoff team who won less than 90 games this year.

Now it takes a good team to take advantage of those situations, but to say the Cards are the best team because they are in the NLCS is just stupid.  They are the hotter team right now.  The 162 game regular season tells you who the top teams are.  That would be the Nats, Reds, Giants, Braves, and Cards in that order for 2012.  The Cards just happened to be a team that catches fire in the postseason.

[dacskc]

Every day, in every sport! That's where the terms upset, underdog, and Cinderella come from.

Except you're not Cinderella when you keep winning. You're just good.

That being said, the Cards could easily get beat in the NLCS and there won't be any excuses from me. It's hilarious though that so many people can't acknowledge that the Cards are anything but a bunch of losers who get lucky all the time.

[bsking]

You know who's better than the Cardinals?  The Indians.  They won the only series against them.  Thus better.

I R GUD AT LOJIK

[Razorback_Mack]

So you think that the better team wins at the same clip in all sports?

Absolutly not. But if there is 15 NFL games the better team in one of those 15 games is gonna lose. That's all I meant by it happening every day in every sport.

[bsking]

It's hilarious though that so many people can't acknowledge that the Cards are anything but a bunch of losers who get lucky all the time.

I dare you to post where I said that.  Oh, you can't?  I'm shocked that you just make things up to fit your opinion.  I'm soooo surprised.

[bsking]

Absolutly not. But if there is 15 NFL games the better team in one of those 15 games is gonna lose. That's all I meant by it happening every day in every sport.

If you line up the Texas vs. the Browns a hundred times how many times will the Texans lose?

If you line up the Yankees vs. The Astros a hundred times how many times will the Yankees lose?

[Razorback_Mack]

If you line up the Texas vs. the Browns a hundred times how many times will the Texans lose?

If you line up the Yankees vs. The Astros a hundred times how many times will the Yankees lose?

The yankees would lose about 30. The texans would lose about 10.

[dacskc]

Just curious.  Do you?

Do I what? Juice? Lololol. ( if you saw me you wouldn't need to ask)

Of course Big Mac was juicing, as was every other power hitter and power pitcher during that time. Doesn't make it right, but that was the culture back then. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that most everyone was. I don't think he'll be a HoFer because of that (nor does he deserve to be), but I find it sad more than anything else. Barry Bonds will probably suffer more than anyone because of it. That guy could've been a HoFer without the juice, I don't think McGwire or Sosa could have. They were just trying to make more $ and extend their careers.

[bsking]

The yankees would lose about 30. The texans would lose about 10.

Okay, I can't argue that too hard.

So you can understand that in baseball, the better team wins less than in any other sport, right?  I'll assume yes.

The reason for this is luck and unpredictably.  From T-Ball to the pros, it is a MASSIVE part of baseball, and if you don't understand that you are foolish.

[ucahogfan]

If you line up the Texas vs. the Browns a hundred times how many times will the Texans lose?

If you line up the Yankees vs. The Astros a hundred times how many times will the Yankees lose?

Except in this situation, the Browns at least have some NFL talent while the Astros are on the level of a AAA team.  Also, isn't it funny that the worst MLB team and best NFL team are from the same city?

[dacskc]

I dare you to post where I said that.  Oh, you can't?  I'm shocked that you just make things up to fit your opinion.  I'm soooo surprised.

Did I say YOU said that? No. Plenty have. It's all over the internet if you'd like to take a look. It has been insinuated in this thread and others on this board though.

[Razorback_Mack]

Okay, I can't argue that too hard.

So you can understand that in baseball, the better team wins less than in any other sport, right?

I think you've got the wrong guy amigo. I've been on your side. Lol

[bsking]

Do I what? Juice? Lololol. ( if you saw me you wouldn't need to ask)

Of course Big Mac was juicing, as was every other power hitter and power pitcher during that time. Doesn't make it right, but that was the culture back then. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that most everyone was. I don't think he'll be a HoFer because of that (nor does he deserve to be), but I find it sad more than anything else. Barry Bonds will probably suffer more than anyone because of it. That guy could've been a HoFer without the juice, I don't think McGwire or Sosa could have. They were just trying to make more $ and extend their careers.

Just testing how far the homer-dom goes.  You admit he was cheating but you try to make it okay because "all the cool kids were doing it."

[bsking]

I think you've got the wrong guy amigo. I've been on your side. Lol

My bad.

[sooieet]

Didn't the Nationals WIN the night that Strasburg's replacement in the rotation pitched?

[bsking]

Did I say YOU said that? No. Plenty have. It's all over the internet if you'd like to take a look. It has been insinuated in this thread and others on this board though.

I can find the idea that the Cardinals are all actually cyborgs from a thousand years in the future on the internet, doesn't make it right or anyone valid's opinion.

[bsking]

Didn't the Nationals WIN the night that Strasburg's replacement in the rotation pitched?

Won one lost one.

[ucahogfan]

Didn't the Nationals WIN the night that Strasburg's replacement in the rotation pitched?

Wouldn't Strasburg have thrown Games 1 and 5 instead of only Game 4?

Won one lost one.

Pretty sure he was talking about Detweiler who would have been in the pen had Strasburg still been in the rotation.  Gio would have thrown Game 2, Zimmerman would have thrown Game 3, and Jackson would have thrown Game 4.

[dacskc]

You can't say that bsking!  Don't you know that the Cards are the greatest team ever?  It can't be about luck for them the last couple of years.  It's not like the Cards lucked into the 2011 postseason because of one of the greatest September collapses of all time.  It's not like the only reason the Cards made the 2012 playoffs is because the MLB changed the postseason format.  It's not like the best defense in the NL made 3 errors in a do-or-die game.  It's not like they are the benefactors of the biggest collapse in a do-or-die game in MLB postseason history.  Come on, luck never factors in.  The better team always win even though the Cards are the only playoff team who won less than 90 games this year.

Now it takes a good team to take advantage of those situations, but to say the Cards are the best team because they are in the NLCS is just stupid.  They are the hotter team right now.  The 162 game regular season tells you who the top teams are.  That would be the Nats, Reds, Giants, Braves, and Cards in that order for 2012.  The Cards just happened to be a team that catches fire in the postseason.

Oh come on now...nobody is saying they're the greatest team ever. That would be the Yankees because they've proven it. Strange how the Cards always seem to catch fire in the post-season. It might have something to do with being good. You don't get the reputation of being a winner if you tank when it counts, you get that reputation by being the best team when it counts. So can I say the Cards were the best team last year? Yes I can. Are they the best team this year? IDK ...could be the Tigers, the Giants or the Yankees. Gotta do it when it matters.

[bsking]

Oh come on now...nobody is saying they're the greatest team ever. That would be the Yankees because they've proven it. Strange how the Cards always seem to catch fire in the post-season. It might have something to do with being good. You don't get the reputation of being a winner if you tank when it counts, you get that reputation by being the best team when it counts. So can I say the Cards were the best team last year? Yes I can. Are they the best team this year? IDK ...could be the Tigers, the Giants or the Yankees. Gotta do it when it matters.

MANY Cardinals fans, including MANY on this board, whether they'll admit it or not, say the Cards are the best franchise in baseball and even all of sports.

[bsking]

Wouldn't Strasburg have thrown Games 1 and 5 instead of only Game 4?
Pretty sure he was talking about Detweiler who would have been in the pen had Strasburg still been in the rotation.  Gio would have thrown Game 2, Zimmerman would have thrown Game 3, and Jackson would have thrown Game 4.

True enough, I just assumed he meant Gio sliding into his spot.

[dacskc]

Just testing how far the homer-dom goes.  You admit he was cheating but you try to make it okay because "all the cool kids were doing it."

Not at all. Did I not say it was wrong in my post? I bet there were Braves, Cubs, Sox, Yankees cheating too. Explaining the "why" is not the same as condoning it. Oh well, I enjoy a decent argument.

[ucahogfan]

Not at all. Did I not say it was wrong in my post? I bet there were Braves, Cubs, Sox, Yankees cheating too. Explaining the "why" is not the same as condoning it. Oh well, I enjoy a decent argument.

Braves - Who would that have been?  Never really heard about any Braves doing roids ala your current hitting coach.

Cubs - Well, I could see Bartman doing roids.  The Cubs weren't good enough to have been cheating.

Bo Sox - There must have been PEDs in the beer and chicken then.

Yankees - They don't call him A-Roid for nothing.

[grayhawg]

Braves would never cheat.

http://deadspin.com/5842873/if-the-90s-braves-were-doctoring-the-ball-more-power-to-them

[dacskc]

MANY Cardinals fans, including MANY on this board, whether they'll admit it or not, say the Cards are the best franchise in baseball and even all of sports.

Well that would not be me. I would have to give them the National League nod, though, 11 titles is not homerism (the Yankees have 27 so there's no argument about who the best is, and it's not close). In close NL consideration would be Dodgers, Braves, Phillies and Reds (more so for their past than recent achievements) for consistently being good.

[ucahogfan]

Braves would never cheat.

http://deadspin.com/5842873/if-the-90s-braves-were-doctoring-the-ball-more-power-to-them

It must be true if Mazzone said it.  It's not like you could see that they were doing it ala Bonds, Canseco, and Sosa.

[bellavistamike]

The Cards don't deserve any credit! Better to be lucky than good! They scratched out 9 clutch runs after being down 6-0 against a better team! They handily outscored the better team over the span of five games as well winning 2/3 on the road. That is some clutchy luck! Or lucky clutch...I forget the cliches.

The Cards have apparently "lucked" into more good fortune than any other team in history. At some point, people have got to realize that managing to win the regular season means nada.  The Cards figured that out in '04. You just have to be good enough during the season and the best team in post-season because that's how it works. (if that's a problem the complaint should be directed at MLB) Luck or being clutch has nothing to do with it. It isn't the crapshoot some are making it out to be. Having patience at the plate is not luck. Knowing how the system works and managing and playing that way is not luck.

The Nats shutting down their ace was stupid, but all the excuse making against the Cards is getting old. Do people really think you get to the post-season 7 times in 11 years by being fortunate? Will the Cards "get lucky" again facing the Giants? Who knows? If they win, it won't be because of luck and if they lose (which could easily happen) it won't be due to anything other than getting outplayed by an excellent Giants team. All this "luck," "clutch" and "baseball gods" nonsense boils down to being well-managed, well-coached, having a good front office, knowing and doing your job and playing all 27 outs. I'm not saying other teams don't have these qualities, it's just that the Cards know to utilize their resources better than just about anyone else. But if you call that "luck," I guess we'll take it.

I think the Nats will learn from this experience and they will be contenders for some time.

The Cards did the same thing last season against, my team, Texas.

Getting there, then putting it together is the key to the way playoffs operate these days. Yeah, luck plays into it, too. But I said in the WS last year, you can't beat destiny. In 2011, the Cards were a team of destiny. Are they again in 2012?  We'll see.

But it was fun watching them come back in Game 5 last night. Good baseball is always fun to watch...