Nba Finals thread

[FineAsSwine]

Kyrie Irving is giving nothing. JR Smith has been held in check. Kevin Love has been a non factor. Thompson has been kept from dominating the offensive glass.

Lebron can't be a facilitator because no one else is doing anything on offense. That takes away a major strength of Lebron's game, his passing.

Cavs have no chance. This is a roster problem. Need to go and get Durant, if they want a chance next year.

[McKdaddy]

I like the NBA and that game didn't do anything for me either.   Come on Cavs, at least make it competitive.

Agreed.

[EastexHawg]

How many Dream Teams have to be assembled to try to get championships for LeBron?  Last year the excuse was that Kyrie Irving broke his kneecap in Game One and that Kevin Love wasn't available.  This year Cleveland has been slaughtered with Irving in the lineup all the time and with Love available for all of Game One and part of Game Two.  Let's face it, the Cavaliers were in the process of being rolled whether Love left the game or not.

Before that he took his talents to South Beach so he could play with Dwayne Wade and the guy who looked like a Martian...I am having a senior moment and can't recall his name right now.

Now Cleveland needs to go out and get Kevin Durant.

Or maybe it is time to simply realize that while LeBron James is a very good basketball player, he's not in the same discussion as Michael Jordan or even Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon when it comes to taking over games in the playoffs and winning championships.

The Eastern Conference is weak and the Cavaliers are being exposed by one of at least three teams from the West that would beat them in the Finals.

[Adam Stokes]

How many Dream Teams have to be assembled to try to get championships for LeBron?  Last year the excuse was that Kyrie Irving broke his kneecap in Game One and that Kevin Love wasn't available.  This year Cleveland has been slaughtered with Irving in the lineup all the time and with Love available for all of Game One and part of Game Two.  Let's face it, the Cavaliers were in the process of being rolled whether Love left the game or not.

Before that he took his talents to South Beach so he could play with Dwayne Wade and the guy who looked like a Martian...I am having a senior moment and can't recall his name right now.

Now Cleveland needs to go out and get Kevin Durant.

Or maybe it is time to simply realize that while LeBron James is a very good basketball player, he's not in the same discussion as Michael Jordan or even Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon when it comes to taking over games in the playoffs and winning championships.

The Eastern Conference is weak and the Cavaliers are being exposed by one of at least three teams from the West that would beat them in the Finals.

The Cav's over-achieved in last year's finals.  Watching the Cav's win games 2 & 3 felt to me like watching our Michael Washington led Pelphrey team against Texas and Oklahoma.  We won, but I still didn't think we looked great.  We went against good teams, but just played bad.  We went on to go 2-14 in conference.

Had the Cav's been healthy last year I think they would've lost in 7.  This year's GSW team is head and shoulders better than last year.  They don't even have to lean that hard on their stars because they have Spurs-like chemistry with more superior players, probably more superior than the Spurs had in their last couple of championships. 

[ErieHog]

The Cavs team and style are deal for basketball in 2010.

LeBron's teams, I am beginning to believe, are perpetually behind the curve because it takes people a few years to figure out how to play off his game within their system-- and the truly elite teams have long term stability and joint growth as they go through the growing pains of developing their play style that becomes ascendant for a while,  without interruption--   its very hard to easy-bake oven your way to a title, no matter how good the individual parts may be.

In a few years, much of what the Warriors do will seem slightly dated, as well.   

[Big Nasty 34]

In a few years, much of what the Warriors do will seem slightly dated, as well.

I'm not so sure. I think it may be opposite to where more of the league will be doing what they're doing now. The mass three point shooting isn't going anywhere, that's for sure. And we are seeing that one on one iso ball isn't as effective as good movement and passing.

[ErieHog]

I'm not so sure. I think it may be opposite to where more of the league will be doing what they're doing now. The mass three point shooting isn't going anywhere, that's for sure. And we are seeing that one on one iso ball isn't as effective as good movement and passing.

You can't really copy having the two of the five best shooters in the game, in your backcourt.

Teams will try to copy it and fail-- really, they're just a logical fusion of the old 7 seconds system,  Spurs passing, and and the Rockets a 3 for a 2 strategy, that works because they shoot well enough to not have to be more than a bit competitive on the glass.

What'll end up happening, is that teams will adapt what teams that have had some success against this Warriors style have done--  OKC did it by crushing the glass, trying to come out ahead in the turnovers, and shoot competitively from the outside with their own two perimeter capable scorers.

The Spurs tried to do it with defense and passing, without the emphasis on  perimeter shooting.  It didn't work out as well.

Eventually, though, the Warriors will fall back to the rest of the league-- I'd say they play for a WCF/Title again next year, barring injury,  but they aren't an inevitability for the next several years.

[onebadrubi]

You can't really copy having the two of the five best shooters in the game, in your backcourt.

Teams will try to copy it and fail-- really, they're just a logical fusion of the old 7 seconds system,  Spurs passing, and and the Rockets a 3 for a 2 strategy, that works because they shoot well enough to not have to be more than a bit competitive on the glass.

What'll end up happening, is that teams will adapt what teams that have had some success against this Warriors style have done--  OKC did it by crushing the glass, trying to come out ahead in the turnovers, and shoot competitively from the outside with their own two perimeter capable scorers.

The Spurs tried to do it with defense and passing, without the emphasis on  perimeter shooting.  It didn't work out as well.

Eventually, though, the Warriors will fall back to the rest of the league-- I'd say they play for a WCF/Title again next year, barring injury,  but they aren't an inevitability for the next several years.

Golden state will be a title contender every year so long as they Steph, Klay, Draymond, and the best role players in the league in Barnes, Igoudala, livingston, bogut, and mo buckets(love this dude). 

Golden st will have issues from within I predict either this offseason or next.  What I mean is one of the following
-Livingston jumps ship for a starting role elsewhere
-Barbosa and/or speights retires or are offered a league min contract
-A max deal is offered to a player in the next 1-2 years of the caliber of a Durant and it pushes away a Green, Thompson, or Curry. 
-the entire team loses its humbleness fans ability to be a true team, which the NBA hasn't seen in my life time.
-catastrophic injury

It will be very interesting to see how contractually this group is handled, the pursuance of a new player, and the effects the previous two memtion things effect current players. 

In the meanwhile, i won't miss a televised GS game and will personally attend a few. 

[Kevin]

Team has the option on Livingston for next year according to ric Boucher

[Kevin]

Cavs line up should be
Delly
Lebron
Irving
Smith
Thompson

[ErieHog]

Golden state will be a title contender every year so long as they Steph, Klay, Draymond, and the best role players in the league in Barnes, Igoudala, livingston, bogut, and mo buckets(love this dude). 

Golden st will have issues from within I predict either this offseason or next.  What I mean is one of the following
-Livingston jumps ship for a starting role elsewhere
-Barbosa and/or speights retires or are offered a league min contract
-A max deal is offered to a player in the next 1-2 years of the caliber of a Durant and it pushes away a Green, Thompson, or Curry. 
-the entire team loses its humbleness fans ability to be a true team, which the NBA hasn't seen in my life time.
-catastrophic injury

It will be very interesting to see how contractually this group is handled, the pursuance of a new player, and the effects the previous two memtion things effect current players. 

In the meanwhile, i won't miss a televised GS game and will personally attend a few. 

I think the Warriors are in the middle of their window; everything breaks right, a couple of other teams have key injuries, and maybe they have 2 more years well ahead of the league before the rest catch up.  It doesn't mean they won't be good, just that the game keeps changing, and success tends to breed stagnation.

The good news for them,  is that the cap is moving up fast enough to where they aren't as likely as many teams are, to face super cap pressure that makes the team implode.

Eventually, though, Bogut and Iggy will show their aging a bit more,   Green will show wear from having to deal with bigger bodies.     They'll be good for a long time, but the clock started ticking the moment they won their first title.

[onebadrubi]

I think the Warriors are in the middle of their window; everything breaks right, a couple of other teams have key injuries, and maybe they have 2 more years well ahead of the league before the rest catch up.  It doesn't mean they won't be good, just that the game keeps changing, and success tends to breed stagnation.

The good news for them,  is that the cap is moving up fast enough to where they aren't as likely as many teams are, to face super cap pressure that makes the team implode.

Eventually, though, Bogut and Iggy will show their aging a bit more,   Green will show wear from having to deal with bigger bodies.     They'll be good for a long time, but the clock started ticking the moment they won their first title.

I agree, but I think that 2 year run is more like a 4-5 year run after this finals.  I did not know they had the option on Livingston.  I think that is huge because the cap space AFTER next year will probably be enough to retain him even if he is a bench player, it realistically is going to allow him to lengthen his playing career.

I think Draymond has at least 4-5 years before seeing fatigue, he's only 26.  Bogut and Iggy will potentially stick around and slide further down to where Barbosa's place is on the bench.  I'd wager though that Iggy's time will outlast Lebrons at Cleveland at this point (haha). 

[alohawg]

How many Dream Teams have to be assembled to try to get championships for LeBron?  Last year the excuse was that Kyrie Irving broke his kneecap in Game One and that Kevin Love wasn't available.  This year Cleveland has been slaughtered with Irving in the lineup all the time and with Love available for all of Game One and part of Game Two.  Let's face it, the Cavaliers were in the process of being rolled whether Love left the game or not.

Before that he took his talents to South Beach so he could play with Dwayne Wade and the guy who looked like a Martian...I am having a senior moment and can't recall his name right now.

Now Cleveland needs to go out and get Kevin Durant.

Or maybe it is time to simply realize that while LeBron James is a very good basketball player, he's not in the same discussion as Michael Jordan or even Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon when it comes to taking over games in the playoffs and winning championships.

The Eastern Conference is weak and the Cavaliers are being exposed by one of at least three teams from the West that would beat them in the Finals.

Good post. Nothing personal, I've just never been a LeBron fan. He's a really physically gifted athlete, generally good guy it seems, but lacks the stuff that the elites of the game all possessed. Whatever you call it, Michael had more than any, Kobe had a bunch, as did Magic, Larry, Isaiah and many more.

[hog.goblin]

And that's why it's a 7-game series.  Playing at home matters.  I still think the Warriors could win in 5.  Cavs hit the boards, got the fouls, and got 15 more shots.

If they can play like that at home it will go 7.

Sadly it seems like an entire week between every game.  Horrible scheduling.

[onebadrubi]

And that's why it's a 7-game series.  Playing at home matters.  I still think the Warriors could win in 5.  Cavs hit the boards, got the fouls, and got 15 more shots.

If they can play like that at home it will go 7.

Sadly it seems like an entire week between every game.  Horrible scheduling.

I believe it's just one day between games from
Here on out.

CavS completed flipped the script. I want my damn free taco!!!!

[Big Nasty 34]

I believe it's just one day between games from
Here on out.

CavS completed flipped the script. I want my damn free taco!!!!

No, it's a day between and then an extra day for travel. And after game 4 they go 1-1-1 so it's still ridiculous lol.

No free taco lol

[Big Nasty 34]

And that's why it's a 7-game series.  Playing at home matters.  I still think the Warriors could win in 5.  Cavs hit the boards, got the fouls, and got 15 more shots.

If they can play like that at home it will go 7.

Sadly it seems like an entire week between every game.  Horrible scheduling.

A pretty boring series so far. I honestly wonder how good these games would be at a neutral site like the NCAAT. The home court environment is awesome, but these games are not. Neutral would also allow for more fans and hopefully a more even game.

[EastexHawg]

The Cavs shot lights out while Curry and Thompson had off nights.  Draymond Green went back to being Draymond Green shooting from outside.  Cleveland was desperate for a win while Golden State, whether they say they were inspired to get the win or not, was playing with the knowledge that they were ahead in the series.

Cleveland got one.  Will they be able to make those shots over the next 3-4 games, and will Curry continue to only put up 12-18 points per game?  We'll see.  I personally doubt it.

[jry04]

How many Dream Teams have to be assembled to try to get championships for LeBron?  Last year the excuse was that Kyrie Irving broke his kneecap in Game One and that Kevin Love wasn't available.  This year Cleveland has been slaughtered with Irving in the lineup all the time and with Love available for all of Game One and part of Game Two.  Let's face it, the Cavaliers were in the process of being rolled whether Love left the game or not.

Before that he took his talents to South Beach so he could play with Dwayne Wade and the guy who looked like a Martian...I am having a senior moment and can't recall his name right now.

Now Cleveland needs to go out and get Kevin Durant.

Or maybe it is time to simply realize that while LeBron James is a very good basketball player, he's not in the same discussion as Michael Jordan or even Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon when it comes to taking over games in the playoffs and winning championships.

The Eastern Conference is weak and the Cavaliers are being exposed by one of at least three teams from the West that would beat them in the Finals.

I hate this whole "dream team" argument. The Warriors have 3 all-stars on their roster this season. Cleveland has 1. People act like the greats never needed help. Jordan played with what, 5 or 6 HoF in his career? The Bulls won like 56 games and finished 3rd in the East when Jordan retired for baseball. Bill Cartwright was putting up double digits in NYK, including like 3 or 4 20 ppg seasons in his first 7 seasons, and then joined Bulls.

The Cavs shot lights out while Curry and Thompson had off nights.  Draymond Green went back to being Draymond Green shooting from outside.  Cleveland was desperate for a win while Golden State, whether they say they were inspired to get the win or not, was playing with the knowledge that they were ahead in the series.

Cleveland got one.  Will they be able to make those shots over the next 3-4 games, and will Curry continue to only put up 12-18 points per game?  We'll see.  I personally doubt it.

Realistically, Steph has had 3 "off" games. The Cavs have actually been defending him very well. It wasn't just this game. He has struggled with turnovers, and having an impact on the game in the first 2-3 quarters every game this series. They are doubling him, forcing him to give it up or not get off open threes most of the series. Unfortunately for the Cavs, the role players like Livingston and Iggy had big offensive nights in the last 2 games. Paul Pierce made a good point last night. He said he thinks the series may swing in the Cavs favor because they have defended Curry and Thompson well most of the series, and the role players won't continue to play like they have. If the Cavs can just play offense like they are capable of then every game going forward will be a close one. However, I see your hate for LBJ is extremely strong, so you think this will just be a fluke and chalk it up as Cavs playing over their heads and Curry having his 3rd straight off game.

[EastexHawg]

I hate this whole "dream team" argument. The Warriors have 3 all-stars on their roster this season. Cleveland has 1. People act like the greats never needed help. Jordan played with what, 5 or 6 HoF in his career? The Bulls won like 56 games and finished 3rd in the East when Jordan retired for baseball. Bill Cartwright was putting up double digits in NYK, including like 3 or 4 20 ppg seasons in his first 7 seasons, and then joined Bulls.

The Bulls had 5 or 6 other Hall of Famers on the roster when Jordan was winning championships?  Who were they?  I know Scottie Pippen was one, and he was there for all six titles.  Dennis Rodman joined the team in '96 after Jordan had retired the first time...and after the first three championships. 

Bill Cartwright isn't a Hall of Famer, and he was on old man who put up 5-9 points per game in the first three of the Bulls' championship seasons.  He wasn't there for the last three.  Bill Wennington was.

Regardless of who was or wasn't there, the fact remains that the Bulls won the NBA title the last six years that Jordan played for them.  The two years he didn't play?  They lost in the second round of the playoffs.

[Kevin]

no matter what pro players say about being motivated, when they are up 2-0, just seems they cannot get motivated

[jry04]

The Bulls had 5 or 6 other Hall of Famers on the roster when Jordan was winning championships?  Who were they?  I know Scottie Pippen was one, and he was there for all six titles.  Dennis Rodman joined the team in '96 after Jordan had retired the first time...and after the first three championships. 

Bill Cartwright isn't a Hall of Famer, and he was on old man who put up 5-9 points per game in the first three of the Bulls' championship seasons.  He wasn't there for the last three.  Bill Wennington was.

Regardless of who was or wasn't there, the fact remains that the Bulls won the NBA title the last six years that Jordan played for them.  The two years he didn't play?  They lost in the second round of the playoffs.

I never said Bill Cartwright was a HoF. I said he joined them after being a beast in NYK. He was a 1000+ scorer in 6 of his 7 full seasons in NY before joining the Bulls. He missed 2 seasons due to injury, but joined CHI in I believe his 9th season. He was 1 year removed from averaging 17pts 7 rebounds per game when he joined the Bulls. The Bulls had role players on their team who could put up 15+ ppg anywhere else but didn't see the minutes on a stacked Bulls team.

He did not play with all of the HoF at once, but he played with that many. My point was he needed help. Again, his team was 3rd in the East without Jordan. That is all you need to know about how good his supporting cast was. I never once said he won ALL of his championships with all of those HoF. Rodman and Pippen were 2 HoF. Nobody cared back then who he played with.

Jordan played with Parrish, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Pippen, and George Gervin. He didn't win a championship with 2 of those, but my point was nobody cried about who he played with like people like you do about LBJ. I don't count Gilmore and Parish really though, because they were old as dirt when they played with MJ and were a non-factor. Pippen and Rodman were big time, though. Everyone bashes Kevin Love and says he is a huge reason why the Cavs cannot win this series, but then are quick to bash LBJ because he got Kyrie and Love. Which is it? Is Love a superstar or is he not? Dwyane is a great talent, but he was also getting his knee scoped every week in the playoffs his last 2 seasons.

Kobe had Shaq from Orlando. He had Gasol and Bynum, which Bynum was considered the next big star until he went crazy. Curry has Thompson and Draymond, and got Iggy from the 76ers, where he was a star. It is a team sport for a reason, and more now than ever you need 8-10 players to win a championship, not just 2 or 3. A huge reason why the experts picked GSW to win this series was because they are deeper, and the better team. Yet people act like if LBJ doesn't win it is some sort of huge upset. The only series LBJ shouldn't have lost in the Finals was the Mavs one. All of the others that he lost he wasn't the favorite to win. Realistically, last year and his first year in Cleveland it was incredible he even made it because his teams were so outmatched. I guess I just don't get worked up about who wants to play with who. I find it more refreshing to see a player care about winning rather than pull a Melo and just stay in one place because of the paycheck, but moan and groan about how he hates it. I don't see what LBJ, Paul, Wade, and all the others do to recruit players as being any different than what college kids do like when they join UK. They want to win. You are about to really hate Durant when he joins someone like the Spurs.

[jry04]

If Wiggins were in Cleveland instead of Love, the Cavs would probably win the championship with relative ease this year. I wonder how many people would cry about him having a "dream team" if that were the case, considering Kyrie and Wiggins would have both been drafted to Cleveland. The only "star" they added to the Cavs for LBJ was Love. He left a better team in Miami to bring a championship to his city, but people still complain about it. No matter how you shake it, he will probably play in 10+ Finals before his career is over. That is going to be an incredible feat.

[EastexHawg]

Over the last six seasons Kevin Love has averaged 21 points and 12.4 rebounds per game.  He was an All-Star his last three full seasons in Minnesota.  Now all of a sudden he's not really all that much help to LeBron.  Kyrie Irving is a career 21 ppg scorer and a three time All-Star.  How many teams have three 20 point scorers on the roster right now?

Tristan Thompson was the 4th overall pick in the draft five years ago.  He has averaged 10 points and 9 board per game in his young career and has shot 57% from the field over the last two seasons.  J.R. Smith has averaged over 13 per game for his career and is in the top 20 in NBA history in three point shooting.  If we're going to bring up old guys like Cartwright when talking about Jordan's supporting cast, Richard Jefferson is a career 13.3 ppg guy who averaged over 22 per game earlier in his career.

To claim that LeBron is playing with a lesser supporting cast simply isn't accurate.  He has two young all-stars in the primes of their careers playing with him as well as some other guys with more than solid NBA credentials.

[jry04]

Over the last six seasons Kevin Love has averaged 21 points and 12.4 rebounds per game.  He was an All-Star his last three full seasons in Minnesota.  Now all of a sudden he's not really all that much help to LeBron.  Kyrie Irving is a career 21 ppg scorer and a three time All-Star.  How many teams have three 20 point scorers on the roster right now?

Tristan Thompson was the 4th overall pick in the draft five years ago.  He has averaged 10 points and 9 board per game in his young career and has shot 57% from the field over the last two seasons.  J.R. Smith has averaged over 13 per game for his career and is in the top 20 in NBA history in three point shooting.  If we're going to bring up old guys like Cartwright when talking about Jordan's supporting cast, Richard Jefferson is a career 13.3 ppg guy who averaged over 22 per game earlier in his career.

To claim that LeBron is playing with a lesser supporting cast simply isn't accurate.  He has two young all-stars in the primes of their careers playing with him as well as some other guys with more than solid NBA credentials.

I really don't get why you fail to understand what I am saying. I NEVER SAID LEBRON DOESN'T HAVE HELP. I SAID EVERYONE WHO HAS WON A CHAMPIONSHIP HAS NEEDED HELP. My post wasn't to say LBJ's team sucks, but to prove everyone else had good teams.

Lebron has a very good team, I never said he didn't. I am saying MJ, Kobe, Magic, Curry, etc all needed help to win. My point about Love is people say Love isn't good enough and will be a huge problem in this series, but then turn around and say LBJ has Love and Kyrie so there is no excuse to lose. GSW just set the record for regular season wins, but LBJ is a failure if he loses? I don't care if it is drafted, FA, or traded talent. Everyone needs a good team to win. LBJ has gone about it differently than most teams. Ask yourself this, if LBJ were to miss 3 games v Houston and 3 games v Portland, do you think the Cavs win the series, or even win in 5?

[husker71]

Gilmore, Gervin and Parrish had nothing left when they played with the Bulls.  What the Bulls did have was 4 interchangable defensive stars    Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Harper.  All basically the same height and it was nearly impossible to get them into a mismatch. 

[jry04]

Gilmore, Gervin and Parrish had nothing left when they played with the Bulls.  What the Bulls did have was 4 interchangable defensive stars    Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Harper.  All basically the same height and it was nearly impossible to get them into a mismatch. 

Agreed, that is why I said I don't really count them. Old as dirt. Cartwright was a much bigger addition to the Bulls, because he was still a very good player for them when he joined the Bulls. He could have played somewhere else and be a 15+ ppg scorer, but was traded to the Bulls and became a role player.

The Bulls also had players like Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong who were all-stars the season that Jordan sat out, but essentially second fiddle to Pippen and Jordan when Jordan played, rightfully so.

[Big Nasty 34]

I hate this whole "dream team" argument. The Warriors have 3 all-stars on their roster this season. Cleveland has 1. People act like the greats never needed help. Jordan played with what, 5 or 6 HoF in his career? The Bulls won like 56 games and finished 3rd in the East when Jordan retired for baseball. Bill Cartwright was putting up double digits in NYK, including like 3 or 4 20 ppg seasons in his first 7 seasons, and then joined Bulls.

Irving is a top 5 PG and Love is one of the best scoring PFs. Golden State is simply the better TEAM. It's not a matter of talent or lack thereof. It's a matter of better team basketball vs the Cavs ISO ball.

[hog.goblin]

The Bulls had a team full of quality backups.  Once you got past Jordan and Pippen, there were no stars, but a number of guys could score efficiently, and several were tremendous defenders.

Like the Warriors, they played great team basketball.

The Cavs are poorly coached (inexperienced coach) and have no quality depth. 

In Game 1 they had 4 guys who scored more than 3 points. 
In game 2 they had 3 guys who scored more than 8 points. 
In game 3 their good players finally all played well, but you still only had 4 guys score more than 9 points, getting only 15 points from the bench out of their total of 120.

James, Irving, and Love are good enough to win a championship.  But it's hard when you have little quality depth after that and lack quality coaching.

And I agree, the only finals James lost that he should have won was against the Mavericks.

[jry04]

Irving is a top 5 PG and Love is one of the best scoring PFs. Golden State is simply the better TEAM. It's not a matter of talent or lack thereof. It's a matter of better team basketball vs the Cavs ISO ball.

I am fully aware of how good Love and Kyrie are. I was just speaking in technicalities. Neither of them were all-stars this year, but the GSW had 3. We all know they are all-star talent, though. For the 10000th time, the Cavs have talent and I have never said otherwise. I have only said they aren't deep. GSW's backup PG is Livingston, and the Cav's is Delly. No comparison who is the better player.  People bash LBJ for playing with talent like it is a bad thing, but Curry is playing with 2 other all-stars on his team. It is my opinion that anyone who says "Lebron needed help to win his rings" as it is some sort of diss towards his career is a an idiot, because when you look at history everyone played with an elite player in the league at their time.

I always hear about how "LBJ just can't get it done in the finals." All but 1 of the finals he lost he wasn't even the favorite. The teams he was facing were considered more talented.

[Dr. Starcs]

No way you can convince me the 2014 spurs were more talented than lebrons heat. Especially since they had beat that same spurs team the year before, albeit a bailed out title due to ray Allen's 3 in game 6.

[jry04]

No way you can convince me the 2014 spurs were more talented than lebrons heat. Especially since they had beat that same spurs team the year before, albeit a bailed out title due to ray Allen's 3 in game 6.

SA won 62 games that year in the regular season, and the Heat won 54. The Heat weren't even the #1 seed in the East that season. The Spurs definitely exceeded expectations that year considering what they were expected to do entering the year, but as the season played out, the Spurs became the favorites.

Entering the finals, the Spurs were the favorite to win according to odds makers. I could see an argument either way, though. I will say they definitely shouldn't have lost 4-1. I think it was just more of the same that is going on in Cleveland. 3 really good players, a couple good role players, but a limited bench held them back. If LBJ and Kyrie sit at the same time, there are stretches that the Cavs really struggle. JR can go 10-15 from 3 or 0-15 on any given night.

[Dr. Starcs]

Absolutely the spurs were the better team. But not as talented IMO.

I think the two can be blurred sometimes, but I like the stats you brought to the discussion.

[Big Nasty 34]

I am fully aware of how good Love and Kyrie are. I was just speaking in technicalities. Neither of them were all-stars this year, but the GSW had 3. We all know they are all-star talent, though. For the 10000th time, the Cavs have talent and I have never said otherwise. I have only said they aren't deep. GSW's backup PG is Livingston, and the Cav's is Delly. No comparison who is the better player.  People bash LBJ for playing with talent like it is a bad thing, but Curry is playing with 2 other all-stars on his team. It is my opinion that anyone who says "Lebron needed help to win his rings" as it is some sort of diss towards his career is a an idiot, because when you look at history everyone played with an elite player in the league at their time.

I always hear about how "LBJ just can't get it done in the finals." All but 1 of the finals he lost he wasn't even the favorite. The teams he was facing was considered more talented.

I think the thing that rubs people the wrong way, or me anyway, is just the drama that LBJ has brought. With all the self proclaimed things like "King James" "We are all Witnesses" "The Decision" it is easy to criticize him for his talent chasing and lack of rings.

Lebron is arguably the greatest athlete in the world, he should dominate every single game. It shouldn't matter if he doesn't have as much depth as G.S., they have plenty of talent to win this series. He just doesn't have the "bulldog" competitive spirit of past greats such as Kobe, MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...

Rant over haha

[jry04]

I think the thing that rubs people the wrong way, or me anyway, is just the drama that LBJ has brought. With all the self proclaimed things like "King James" "We are all Witnesses" "The Decision" it is easy to criticize him for his talent chasing and lack of rings.

Lebron is arguably the greatest athlete in the world, he should dominate every single game. It shouldn't matter if he doesn't have as much depth as G.S., they have plenty of talent to win this series. He just doesn't have the "bulldog" competitive spirit of past greats such as Kobe, MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...

Rant over haha

The decision was full of drama, and probably a bad decision on his part, but he did raise a TON of money for charity. He also gives back to his community more than just about any NBA star I have seen. I definitely think he has the talent around him to win, I am just saying having talent around you shouldn't be an asterisk on your career. I think he has had more of a killer instinct since joining Cleveland than he has in the past. At times in Toronto and the last game he looked unstoppable, and was demanding the ball. Last year, with Love and Kyrie out, he nearly carried them to a game 7. He doesn't get much credit, but his performance last year in the Finals was great given the circumstances. That win @ GS to tie the series at 1-1 was incredible. 40 pts, 16 reb, 11 assists while playing 50 minutes.

[husker71]

Is Kyrie day in and day out one of the top PGs     It depends but in the West he would be 5th or 6th at best     Love is a totally different player than he was in Minnesota just look at him   at Minnesota he banged for rebounds now he is much more a perimeter player    I dont know how much they can get for him and that salary

[ShadowHawg]

I think the thing that rubs people the wrong way, or me anyway, is just the drama that LBJ has brought. With all the self proclaimed things like "King James" "We are all Witnesses" "The Decision" it is easy to criticize him for his talent chasing and lack of rings.

Lebron is arguably the greatest athlete in the world, he should dominate every single game. It shouldn't matter if he doesn't have as much depth as G.S., they have plenty of talent to win this series. He just doesn't have the "bulldog" competitive spirit of past greats such as Kobe, MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...

Rant over haha

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kobe? REALLY?! He wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of his championships and the other two he was a part of an ENTIRE STARTING FIVE OF LOTTERY PICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Bird played with two other HOFs and several other very good players.

Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper, and Byron Scott during his career.

Jordan wasn't even advancing as far in the playoffs as LeBron before Reinsdorf finally built a team by trading for Pippen, drafting Kukoc, and signing free agents like Rodman.

So can we quit pretending this is unique to LeBron?

LeBron is so good that he took a team that lost 28 straight and won 60+ games with them the season prior. Dan Gilbert was more than content to rake in the dough and not pay to build a team around LeBron. Heck, Gilbert is the reason that folks like you think that LeBron can't win the big one. Wilt was the most dominating force ever in the NBA and couldn't win titles without other stars around him. LeBron can't either.

KG told LeBron that he wished he had left Minn years earlier after the Celtics beat the Cavs in LeBron's last game in Cle before going to Miami. Minn wasted KG's best years by using him to fill seats and sell merchandise but not building a team around him. Basically, KG was saying don't let the Cavs waste your entire peak years out of a sense of loyalty when they aren't showing ANY to their fans or LeBron.

It took "the decision" to wake Gilbert up and open his checkbook. LeBron still has about half a decade of productive years in him. Let's see where it all shakes out.

[1highhog]

I hate this whole "dream team" argument. The Warriors have 3 all-stars on their roster this season. Cleveland has 1. People act like the greats never needed help. Jordan played with what, 5 or 6 HoF in his career? The Bulls won like 56 games and finished 3rd in the East when Jordan retired for baseball. Bill Cartwright was putting up double digits in NYK, including like 3 or 4 20 ppg seasons in his first 7 seasons, and then joined Bulls.

Realistically, Steph has had 3 "off" games. The Cavs have actually been defending him very well. It wasn't just this game. He has struggled with turnovers, and having an impact on the game in the first 2-3 quarters every game this series. They are doubling him, forcing him to give it up or not get off open threes most of the series. Unfortunately for the Cavs, the role players like Livingston and Iggy had big offensive nights in the last 2 games. Paul Pierce made a good point last night. He said he thinks the series may swing in the Cavs favor because they have defended Curry and Thompson well most of the series, and the role players won't continue to play like they have. If the Cavs can just play offense like they are capable of then every game going forward will be a close one. However, I see your hate for LBJ is extremely strong, so you think this will just be a fluke and chalk it up as Cavs playing over their heads and Curry having his 3rd straight off game.

Name these 5-6 HOF's that Jordan played with in Chicago please.

[Big Nasty 34]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kobe? REALLY?! He wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of his championships and the other two he was a part of an ENTIRE STARTING FIVE OF LOTTERY PICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Bird played with two other HOFs and several other very good players.

Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper, and Byron Scott during his career.

Jordan wasn't even advancing as far in the playoffs as LeBron before Reinsdorf finally built a team by trading for Pippen, drafting Kukoc, and signing free agents like Rodman.

So can we quit pretending this is unique to LeBron?

LeBron is so good that he took a team that lost 28 straight and won 60+ games with them the season prior. Dan Gilbert was more than content to rake in the dough and not pay to build a team around LeBron. Heck, Gilbert is the reason that folks like you think that LeBron can't win the big one. Wilt was the most dominating force ever in the NBA and couldn't win titles without other stars around him. LeBron can't either.

KG told LeBron that he wished he had left Minn years earlier after the Celtics beat the Cavs in LeBron's last game in Cle before going to Miami. Minn wasted KG's best years by using him to fill seats and sell merchandise but not building a team around him. Basically, KG was saying don't let the Cavs waste your entire peak years out of a sense of loyalty when they aren't showing ANY to their fans or LeBron.

It took "the decision" to wake Gilbert up and open his checkbook. LeBron still has about half a decade of productive years in him. Let's see where it all shakes out.

so you would take LeBron over those guys in big games? I wouldn't. If any of those guys had LeBron's athletic ability, they'd probably average a triple double. LeBron should score 75% of the time he's not being double teamed.  They would set a pick and get curry guarding him and he would back down a little bit and then pass it out to love for a missed three. He should dominate smaller defenders in the paint.

[TomasPistola]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kobe? REALLY?! He wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of his championships and the other two he was a part of an ENTIRE STARTING FIVE OF LOTTERY PICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Bird played with two other HOFs and several other very good players.

Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper, and Byron Scott during his career.

Jordan wasn't even advancing as far in the playoffs as LeBron before Reinsdorf finally built a team by trading for Pippen, drafting Kukoc, and signing free agents like Rodman.

So can we quit pretending this is unique to LeBron?

LeBron is so good that he took a team that lost 28 straight and won 60+ games with them the season prior. Dan Gilbert was more than content to rake in the dough and not pay to build a team around LeBron. Heck, Gilbert is the reason that folks like you think that LeBron can't win the big one. Wilt was the most dominating force ever in the NBA and couldn't win titles without other stars around him. LeBron can't either.

KG told LeBron that he wished he had left Minn years earlier after the Celtics beat the Cavs in LeBron's last game in Cle before going to Miami. Minn wasted KG's best years by using him to fill seats and sell merchandise but not building a team around him. Basically, KG was saying don't let the Cavs waste your entire peak years out of a sense of loyalty when they aren't showing ANY to their fans or LeBron.

It took "the decision" to wake Gilbert up and open his checkbook. LeBron still has about half a decade of productive years in him. Let's see where it all shakes out.

I believe the problem here with LeBron is that seems to seek superteams. Yeah, Jordan got Pippen, but they drafted both. Either could have succeeded or failed. And let's be honest, those were the only two consistent pieces of that dynasty. Sure they had Rodman for a few, and Toni for a few. But the core of that team was Jordan, Pippen and Phil.

Lebron on the other hand dreams of being on a super team with him, CP3, Carmelo, Dwayne, and a few others. It's why a guy like Garnett gets more respect from me. He worked his butt off in Minnesota to get them to the top. He realized at the end it wasn't happening and he didn't have many years left. Then he went and joined a good team that became great and got his ring. I respect that and I would like to believe most Minnesota fans would too.

[Atlhogfan1]

Tried to watch a few minutes of the Finals. Bogut looked like a TE taking out a DB sealing the corner for a RB on that screen for Curry.  In plain sight for all of the officials and they let it go.  Bogut moved him several steps.  No wonder Curry and Thompson get so many good looks. 

[Big Nasty 34]

Tried to watch a few minutes of the Finals. Bogut looked like a TE taking out a DB sealing the corner for a RB on that screen for Curry.  In plain sight for all of the officials and they let it go.  Bogut moved him several steps.  No wonder Curry and Thompson get so many good looks.

Every team does it, refs rarely call fouls on it anymore in NBA. Refs have been absolutely spectators in the second half. Some very physical basketball with a lot of no calls.

[Buff]

This has been a very Cavaliers 4th quarter. 

[Big Nasty 34]

This has been a very Cavaliers 4th quarter.

They gave up the ghost at about the 5 minute mark.

[Buff]

The fans stayed in this game longer than the team.  You could almost see their spirits leaving their bodies on the court.  And Lebron being such a punk is funny.

[hog.goblin]

GSW bench out scores the CAVS bench 22 - 7.  CAVS missed 11 FTs.

Game, set, and match at game 5 in Golden St when they play again in 3 weeks.

[TomasPistola]

Not sure if I just watched a basketball game or a wrestling match. Very physical. Was kinda nice to see. Refs still don't know how to call a travel.

[alohawg]

I tuned in and out tonight expecting the Cavaliers to even it up, lol. It's true, you could see in the body language during a stretch mid 4th,  game in the balance, that for some reason they seemed to give up. How the coach could sit and watch and not call timeout before the inevitable dagger three by GS is beyond me. Seemed real obvious from the couch.
Oh' well, 5 game yawner of a series and the Warriors repeat.....do they threepeat? Who can stop them, OKC with the right moves maybe, the aging Spurs?

[Dr. Starcs]

Glad g-st won.

Game was super physical, but I've never seen the amount of whining in one game that I saw tonight. Sheesh.

[HardingHog]

I enjoy lurking through this thread for a few posts each day to make myself feel more intelligent