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Cirrus SR22 First Impression and Insurance checkout

Started by bvillepig, July 13, 2014, 04:14:38 pm

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bvillepig

 
Pretty long and my partner has the plane this weekend so I am bored. Please forgive.

Flying an airplane had always been a goal of mine from a very young age.  I was not able to realize that dream until the age of 52. That was almost 10 years ago.  It took a few months to finish my private and I passed my instrument check ride soon after.  For some reason the instrument was far easier for me. I can't explain it but I almost gave up a couple of times during the private. I am nearing 2000 hours in these 10 years and have a lot of wonderful memories. I also have met some great people (Gotya) that I would not have and I look forward to meeting more.

I sold my Saratoga on the last day of December and flew it down to its new owner in mid- January.  It took about two weeks to complete the pre buy and get the issue with a USB port worked out on the Avidyne MFD panel. Closing on the last day of the year is another story and one if I had to do over would not have happened. My accountant did not get some paperwork filed before the end of the year and it really has hit hard because of depreciation recapture laws with the IRS. If I had it to do over I would not have sold the Saratoga because of the Capital gains taxes that I got blind sided with. Another lesson learned. All aviation lessons seem to have a lot of zero's but at least I have it behind me now I hope. 

After the sale I started hanging out on Controller a lot.  So I resigned myself to looking at some older Baron's, A36, Malibu, 210s, 340s.   You know, basically anything that had a wing on it  lol and was 160 knots or faster. My potential partner wanted nothing to do with a twin or pressurization so I had to decide whether to go it alone again or look elsewhere.

I had followed Alan and Dale Klapmeier's venture into mfg through different magazines. I have always been intrigued with the Cirrus SR22.  I have kept up with the plane through all the development phases and almost bought one in 2004. My potential partner and I agreed that the SR22 would be a good compromise.

I took delivery of our 2006 SR22 in early May.  As I said earlier I went through over 50 sets of SR22 log books. I found four that had limited maintenance issues and that had been flown fairly frequently.  My insurance company required that we have an instrument proficiency checkout by a Certified Cirrus Instructor and a bi-annual flight review in make and model.

The day of the review came and it was 300 overcast with winds gusting 24-34 and pretty hard rain. Visibility at KBYH was 2 and moderate rain. The Cirrus instructor had to drive over from Tennessee so I called him early to let him know the conditions. I was somewhat apprehensive and hoping to cancel as I had only met this guy on the phone. He cheerfully reported "Sounds like a great day to fly to me."  See you in a couple of hours."

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N406SR/history/20140514/1455Z/KBYH/KBPK


I met Alan at the airport and conditions were still pretty well the same. I told him I had checked the weather all the way to Tulsa at various sites and it looked like it might be clearing off starting at Harrison west. We needed VFR somewhere to do the Bi Annual. We could get the IFR done en route.  I had filed for Mt Home to do the IFR side of it. Alan began to explain some of the quirks of the Cirrus. One is the doors. The close like a car but have two latches. If not secured they have a tendency to pop open in flight.  There has been one fatality due to the door coming open and a pilot losing control because of messing with it. They simply close like a car with no inside mechanism to throw.

Checklist has a nice flow and everything was good. As a last check I made sure to check his door and mine. His comments on the door were still fresh on my mind. He also checked. I had to get my clearance on the ground with Flight Service as a relay with Memphis Center and was given a void time.

We roll onto the runway with moderate rain and I proceed with full power. All checks are good, rotate at 78, Flaps up 85, in the clouds at 400 above ground. POP, rain starts coming in as Alan's door has popped open on the upper right. He kind of chuckles and says what are you going to do now. I had only been in the aircraft a few minutes and had just met him. Not a whole lot of time to get a real feel.

Fortunately I kept my wits and told him I needed to climb to 2000 and get Memphis. That is the lowest altitude to talk to Memphis Center from Blytheville.  So I climbed to 2000 called Memphis center and told them I need to land back at KBYH to close a door that had popped open.  He asked me what approach and I told him GPS 36 with MOMAE as the initial.  We flew the approach and broke out at minimum with hard rain now and a mile and a half vis. For a few seconds I thought we were going to go missed.

We close the door and Alan tells me that I did a great job and I have demonstrated my IFR capabilities. Now lets finish up the Instrument and go find some clear weather to do the bi annual.  I have my suspicions about the door as it has not come open since.  I was solid IFR for around 50 minutes. We had to set for the approach into Mt Home and I got number 2 in. The landing was not easy as the winds were gusting to 34 and across the RWY. 

It was clearing off and we were going to get the rest of the work in.  The next two hours were pure heck as I struggled to get the hang of this aircraft in these conditions.   Two things were giving me trouble. The castering nose wheel and landing.  After all the other work, which was fine, we did full stop landings for about 2 ½ hours. My confidence was totally shot by the end of the day and I was ready to get back to the hanger and wanted my Saratoga back. I knew what I was doing but couldn't stop over controlling this airplane. It is a true sports car while my Saratoga was a SUV.

I told Alan I was ready to go and we could finish some other day so we headed back with me doubting that I could ever be comfortable with this aircraft.   By the time I got back the winds had died to around 10 gusting to 18 but were only 30 degrees off the nose. The landing went fine and Alan signed me off for insurance purposes. The experience was similar to my solo ten years ago. I did not want him to get out of the plane. I did not feel ready. I grabbed my instructor a couple of days later and had him ride with me for some work in the pattern. Conditions were very different in a good way and I had a true feel for the aircraft and the side yoke.

  I now have almost 35 hours in this aircraft with a trip to Cleveland Oh, Louisville, Memphis International, and my various fun trips to Fayetteville and back. I will be flying to Dallas Tuesday and Melbourne Fl Wednesday so I am happy to say my views on the plane are a bit different than my first impressions.  I will give a shorter real PI Rep on the Cirrus SR22 soon.




john c

Thanks for the post, although I got a little tense reading it.  You sound like a guy that is not going to get into trouble by making bad decisions.  The door pop made me think about the 2012 Cirrus accident in Springfield that took five lives, including one that I knew.  While we can't know 100%, it's easy to see how distraction likely led to that tragic event.  Also thought about the guy that crashed the Seneca we rebuilt.  When the engines went dry the passengers got very anxious very fast and knowing the pilot I could just see him trying to console them.  The time spent doing that likely led to bad decisions that made the circumstances worse.

So, you think that Alan may have set you up on the door?

 

bvillepig

Thanks for the reply.

I am not sure but I know I pushed on that darn door hard to make sure it was fully latched and I watched him do the same. Even though it caught me by surprise the one thought kept repeating in my brain. Fly the airplane!
Besides he was the one getting wet.! lol     

I learned a lot from him in the short time I have flown with him. I am sure he was on top of things if I had erred.

I love aviation and I love to read. One thing that I think helps is that I try to study all the NTSB reports for the Make and Model of the aircraft I am flying. I have had to put them down from time to time. I am sure you understand why but it does help to understand how a simple chain of events can get far  more experienced pilots than myself in trouble. If it can happen to them then there is a potential for me.
 

gotyacovered

July 15, 2014, 08:03:57 am #3 Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 10:26:29 am by gotyacovered
great read bville...

when you returned bc of the door issue did you have to re-file?
You are what you tolerate.

Pistol Pete

July 15, 2014, 09:33:25 am #4 Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 05:41:55 pm by Pistol Pete
Bville,
When you say you went through 50 sets of log books and 4 had limited issues. Were they issues similar?
Seems like I see where they go through cylinders fairly frequently, I think that's a combination of Continental and running LOP.  And common airframe issues?

GusMcRae

I think I would just have to ask him if he rigged the door to pop open, or if it really popped open all by itself. 

Congrats on getting back into ownership.  That's exciting that it's a Cirrus.  As always, there's a trade off.  And you know as well as I do,,, there were probably >2 empty seats 95% of the time in the Saratoga. 

I just wish I could find a local C-206, C-210, Saratoga, Six, or Lance that I could get checked out in and be able to trade time in it for time in my 182 (even it it was 2X the hours in my plane for 1 in the 6 place) for about 2 trips a year.  The rest of the year, a 4-place plane is plenty for me. 
It ain't dieing I'm talking about Woodrow,,,, It's living!

Being a pilot isn't all seat-of-the-pants flying and glory. It's self- discipline, practice, study, analysis and preparation. It's precision. If you can't keep the gauges where you want them with everything free and easy, how can you keep them there when everything goes wrong?

gotyacovered

Quote from: GusMcRae on July 15, 2014, 11:04:36 am
I think I would just have to ask him if he rigged the door to pop open, or if it really popped open all by itself. 

me too! i would want to know for the sole fact of :peace of mind:
You are what you tolerate.

bvillepig

Quote from: gotyacovered on July 15, 2014, 08:03:57 am
great read bville...

when you returned bc of the door issue did you have to re-file?

Gotya I did not have to re file.  ATC cleared me for the approach and cleared me from KBYH with a heading and altitude restriction after the approach. He then turned me loose to the local traffic and told me he would catch me at 2000.

bvillepig

Quote from: GusMcRae on July 15, 2014, 11:04:36 am
I think I would just have to ask him if he rigged the door to pop open, or if it really popped open all by itself. 

Congrats on getting back into ownership.  That's exciting that it's a Cirrus.  As always, there's a trade off.  And you know as well as I do,,, there were probably >2 empty seats 95% of the time in the Saratoga. 

I just wish I could find a local C-206, C-210, Saratoga, Six, or Lance that I could get checked out in and be able to trade time in it for time in my 182 (even it it was 2X the hours in my plane for 1 in the 6 place) for about 2 trips a year.  The rest of the year, a 4-place plane is plenty for me. 

Gus thanks for the kind words

You are right those two seats were empty 99% of the time. However once a year the whole family would go some where.  I picked my two grand daughters up late this afternoon on my way back from Dallas. We are trying to cram in a little vacation this week. My daughter in law brought them out to the air port for me and said I sure wish there was room for me to go.  it times like that that make me wish I had not sold the Saratoga. It will be better in the long run  I know. 


bvillepig

July 15, 2014, 09:38:23 pm #9 Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 09:50:41 pm by bvillepig
Quote from: Pistol Pete on July 15, 2014, 09:33:25 am
Bville,
When you say you went through 50 sets of log books and 4 had limited issues. Were they issues similar?
Seems like I see where they go through cylinders fairly frequently, I think that's a combination of Continental and running LOP.  And common airframe issues?

Pistol on the Engine logs I went through it was mainly cylinder, alternator, compression issues. Plus a lot of them were just in the shop a lot. Compressions would be all over the place. There were a lot of them that were not even making 5-600 hours without being topped. One or two had props that were being pulled every 25-70 hours to get rebalanced. I would have went another direction except a good friend of mine had bought a Cirrus at the same time I did my Saratoga.  I had sold him on it and after the demo he bought one new.  He has owned an Arrow, Commander 114TC, Cessna  340, Seneca, and Turbo Saratoga over the years.  He put over 2600 hours on his and then put a factory new engine in it and had put almost 1000 on it since 05. He said it was a great airplane and it and the 340 were his favorites of all of them.

The great thing about the Avidyne system is that you can capture the last 100 hours of flights on a USB stick and import them into an excel spreadsheet. It captures all kinds of data second by second.  I looked at fuel flow, EGT Temps, CHT Temps, Oil Temps, Oil Pressure and pct of power flight by flight.  When I did the pre flight before we made the offer I took my friend who has over 3000 hours in his Cirrus. I downloaded the data on the last 100 hours the previous owner flew.

The first thing that jumped out at me was that he flew the plane Rich of Peak. Without getting into a lengthy debate on the virtues of LOP vs ROP that is how Mike had flown all of his aircraft and he always made TBO. The CHT temps had never been over 365 on the hottest cylinder and he cruise climbed at 120 knots on almost all flights. Long story but I still have my fingers crossed that we ended up with a pretty good engine.

gotyacovered

Quote from: bvillepig on July 15, 2014, 09:38:23 pm
Pistol on the Engine logs I went through it was.... :snip:

The first thing that jumped out at me was that he flew the plane Rich of Peak. Without getting into a lengthy debate on the virtues of LOP vs ROP that is how Mike had flown all of his aircraft and he always made TBO. The CHT temps had never been over 365 on the hottest cylinder and he cruise climbed at 120 knots on almost all flights. Long story but I still have my fingers crossed that we ended up with a pretty good engine.

wait, you mean all those fancy gadgets and peoples still be burning up cylinders??? no way... its all cirrus fault (sarcasm)  ::)

to put it another way... you mean its not the plane, its the pilot ???

i think is funny when people compare the SR22 and the Cessna 350's with things like--if you buy the Cessna at least you wont have to put cylinders on it every XXX hours... jeez people same engine, more knuckleheads bought cirri than bought cessna, i guess ;D

truth be told, if i were in the market for a used SR22/SR22T or a Cessna 350/400 i am not sure the route i would go. the chute would PROBABLY push me towards the cirri, but man those Cessnas are sweet... i would find it truly a hard decision.

this is taken from one of the few level headed people on the red board:
Quote

Very late to this party, but this is pretty much the exact same dilemma I've often considered. If I were to upgrade the T-Arrow, the Columbia 300/SR22 or Columbia 400/SR22T would be pretty much the only contenders.

I have maybe 100 hours of Cirrus time and only a smattering of Columbia time, but my impressions were:

Columbia:
> Gorgeous
> Handles beautifully
> Built like a tank
> Watch out for the earlier avionics (repairability, parts, etc)
> Turns more heads on the ramp

Cirrus:
> Same avionics issue with the earlier G1s
> Turns far fewer heads on the ramp
> Has a parachute, which we can argue all day about.

Personally, if it were me, I'd go for a SR22 G2 model (2004 until whenever they started making the G3.) Although I never thought I'd say this, there's something about a chute that starts to look awful good when you think about it. Maybe I'm just getting older

even though ive never flown either... i think this is a good/fair evaluation with an sincere opine.

so anyways... when ya coming to M18? ;D ;D ;D
You are what you tolerate.

bvillepig

Gotya

The Cirrus community sells hard LOP operation and they have all the data to back it up. Every mechanic I talk to except The Cirrus guru "Mike Busch" says if you want to replace your tops at 750 hours fly LOP. He as a great website called Savvy maintenance that has a lot of good articles about engines. He can sell LOP with the best.

I have flown the Corvallis and it was an impressive aircraft. The cabin is a little smaller but I loved the way it flew and handled. It does not have the chute but I think it has a slight edge on the Cirrus as far as the design. I  liked the way the Corvallis handled a little better than the Cirrus.

Both are great handling airplanes and are a lot of fun to fly. The Cirrus has some gotya's (lol) in the landing phase under certain conditions.

It drops like a heavy rock when the wing quits flying. If you have flared a little high and it drops it will bounce. Not just a little bounce either. The first bounce will be about a foot or two  The second one will catapult you like a coiled spring. Time to go full power immediately.  Better get a lot of right rudder in at that time.

The third bounce will most likely take out the prop which only has 7- 8.5 inches of clearance depending on the model.





gotyacovered

Quote from: bvillepig on July 21, 2014, 05:30:07 pm
Gotya

The Cirrus community sells hard LOP operation and they have all the data to back it up. Every mechanic I talk to except The Cirrus guru "Mike Busch" says if you want to replace your tops at 750 hours fly LOP. He as a great website called Savvy maintenance that has a lot of good articles about engines. He can sell LOP with the best.

I have flown the Corvallis and it was an impressive aircraft. The cabin is a little smaller but I loved the way it flew and handled. It does not have the chute but I think it has a slight edge on the Cirrus as far as the design. I  liked the way the Corvallis handled a little better than the Cirrus.

Both are great handling airplanes and are a lot of fun to fly. The Cirrus has some gotya's (lol) in the landing phase under certain conditions.

It drops like a heavy rock when the wing quits flying. If you have flared a little high and it drops it will bounce. Not just a little bounce either. The first bounce will be about a foot or two  The second one will catapult you like a coiled spring. Time to go full power immediately.  Better get a lot of right rudder in at that time.

The third bounce will most likely take out the prop which only has 7- 8.5 inches of clearance depending on the model.

i love the savvy aviator stuff, although a lot of it is above my head. he knows his stuff... the problem is... and i believe you can run LOP and do it without burning up cylinders. i dont believe there are a lot of people out there that can do it 'right enough' to NOT burn cylinders up, and i think it has been proven by the current cirri fleet on the market.

GOTTA have the right equipment to run LOP and GOTTA be able to read/interpret the instruments or ya gonna burn em up.

i made a comment to my dad, something like: looking forward to the engine anaylzer/fuel flow comp so i can run LOP (if i ever get my plane back) and he flat out said: "do yourself a favor, dont do it."

they dont run any of their fleet LOP.
You are what you tolerate.

 

bvillepig

I did enroll in the Savvy program and sent the test flight results to them before I signed. I think you are absolutely right about if you know what you are doing.

I don't trust myself enough nor do I have gami injectors. I had rather pay a couple gallons per hour now than one big bill for cylinders.

gotyacovered

Quote from: bvillepig on July 22, 2014, 04:36:04 pm
I did enroll in the Savvy program and sent the test flight results to them before I signed. I think you are absolutely right about if you know what you are doing.

I don't trust myself enough nor do I have gami injectors. I had rather pay a couple gallons per hour now than one big bill for cylinders.

exactly.

flying up to fyv in a f33a Thursday morning. will be left seat... but CFII will there since no complex...
You are what you tolerate.

bvillepig

That sounds great .  I have heard the f33 is a a very good handling aircraft.

fdx flyer

Gotya - isn't you're engine carbureted?  If so, even with an engine analyzer you couldn't reliably run lean of peak.  You need an injected engine with a very small fuel flow spread between when the first cylinder peaks and the last cylinder peaks (less than .5 gph).  This usually requires the GAMI injectors, and definitely a good engine monitor.

I don't know what's up with the Cirrus boys, but I suspect maybe a combination of lack of reading/understanding and the associated improper technique.  But also, and importantly, I think a lot of cylinders are pulled that don't really need replacing.  A borescope inspection will tell you a lot more than a compression check.  Compressions checks have lots of variables. 

LOP ops is really not difficult.  Nor is it voodoo.  Some of the best articles I've read about engine management are from John Deakin and his series called "Pelican's Perch" on avweb.  (Look specifically at articles 63-66:  http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182146-1.html?redirected=1 

Obviously, I read quite a bit.  I'm a big fan of Mike Busch.  Met him at OSH a couple of years ago.  Great guy - and very sharp.  I've also been to some talks by George Braly from GAMI.  These guys know what they're talking about.  Tons of experience, and tons of research - not wive's tales.  LOP done properly is actually better for your cylinders - lower CHTs and associated lower cylinder pressures.  I've been running LOP for over 3 years with no issues, and just about every Bonanza pilot I know does it.

Pistol Pete

I researched TCM engine cylinders issues and came across a TCM bulletin. I need to post a link to it here, but I think I saved it on my other computer.
It basically states that rust develops very quickly in the cylinders, I'm not sure if there is a different material, or just the way the intake and exhausts are configured vs the Lycoming... But they claim infrequent usage as the major factor in cylinder failures. Infrequent meaning sitting over a couple days 

bvillepig

Quote from: fdx flyer on July 23, 2014, 05:31:08 pm
Gotya - isn't you're engine carbureted?  If so, even with an engine analyzer you couldn't reliably run lean of peak.  You need an injected engine with a very small fuel flow spread between when the first cylinder peaks and the last cylinder peaks (less than .5 gph).  This usually requires the GAMI injectors, and definitely a good engine monitor.

I don't know what's up with the Cirrus boys, but I suspect maybe a combination of lack of reading/understanding and the associated improper technique.  But also, and importantly, I think a lot of cylinders are pulled that don't really need replacing.  A borescope inspection will tell you a lot more than a compression check.  Compressions checks have lots of variables. 

LOP ops is really not difficult.  Nor is it voodoo.  Some of the best articles I've read about engine management are from John Deakin and his series called "Pelican's Perch" on avweb.  (Look specifically at articles 63-66:  http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182146-1.html?redirected=1 

Obviously, I read quite a bit.  I'm a big fan of Mike Busch.  Met him at OSH a couple of years ago.  Great guy - and very sharp.  I've also been to some talks by George Braly from GAMI.  These guys know what they're talking about.  Tons of experience, and tons of research - not wive's tales.  LOP done properly is actually better for your cylinders - lower CHTs and associated lower cylinder pressures.  I've been running LOP for over 3 years with no issues, and just about every Bonanza pilot I know does it.

fdx
I admire the readings of Mike Busch so much and respect his views. I did join Savvy and hope to gain a lot more knowledge. I just don't feel qualified to handle it. I also don't have gami injectors.

Thanks for your posts.  I always enjoy reading those who have a lot of experience to share.

fdx flyer

Hey bville - I'm definitely not an expert.  You probably have more piston time than I do.  A few years back I was just interested in the economies of LOP ops - and like you was hearing all kinds of stuff from both sides of the story.  I just ended up doing a lot of reading and decided to go for it.  I've been very pleased so far.

My cylinders are basically remanufactured Continental cylinders from ECI.  They are a Continental cylinder that's been completely disassembled - including removing the head from the barrel.  Any required repairs were made, everything stress relieved by heat, then re-assembled.  The barrels are coated with Cermi-Nickel, similar to chroming, but easier to break in. They claim this will remedy corrosion issues from infrequent flying.  So far, so good.   ECI also makes brand new cylinders, but when I was doing the overhaul 3 years ago I chose the re-man ones.  They were a better price for what is supposed to be the same quality.