Malaysian Flight

[arkmark]

Hey guys, question about the Malaysian Airlines flight that I haven't seen an answer to in all the coverage.  I thought with all of the experience in this area someone may be able to provide an answer.

The aircraft had a transponder(s) to facilitate tracking by radar as well as communication devices which may also have been of assistance in tracking.  My question is, given that hijackings and other problems do arise on occasion, why and for what purpose are these communication/tracking devices subject to being turned off while in flight by anyone?  Seems as though, especially considering hijacking history, there would be a strong desire to always be able to locate any aircraft, so equipped, at any time.

Thanks and thanks for maintaining a very interesting part of Hogville.

[gotyacovered]

It's pretty simple, actually. If you don't want to broadcast your info to ATC you have a specific code that is used, 1200. That is VFR, with no traffic advisories. You will appear on the radar screen and ATC will know how high/fast you are going, assuming of course everything is working properly. Or you stay out of controlled airspace. You are only required to have a transponder in certain airspace... Class A,B,C,D and E... (CONTROLLED airspace) or if you are IFR. If your not in one of those you don't have to have a transponder (or radio) or have it on.

Also, you turn it off when you are on the ground so you don't show up and 'clog' the system at a busy airport. And some people don't want to be 'in the system' and stay outta controlled airspace.

[arkmark]

Thanks for the quick turnaround.  I understand the rational especially for GA and Military but would you agree or disagree that commercial, especially passenger airlines, might want to be viewed a little differently given the recent circumstances.

[Flying Razorback]

Thanks for the quick turnaround.  I understand the rational especially for GA and Military but would you agree or disagree that commercial, especially passenger airlines, might want to be viewed a little differently given the recent circumstances.

I think you'd want to be able to turn it off or at least change modes while on the ground.  Otherwise you're going to be causing TCAS Resolution Advisories to aircraft that are on final and messing with their approach.  And with Mode S it would clog up the ACAS system.  Also, with all things, sometimes it messes up a little and so you recycle it by turning it off and turning it back on to help the RADAR facility gain a fix.  In aviation things that you can't turn off aren't very welcome.  You always want control over things that are broadcasting outside your aircraft or receiving because of the potential for interference or problems that will mess with the rest of the system.

[Flying Razorback]

Thanks for the quick turnaround.  I understand the rational especially for GA and Military but would you agree or disagree that commercial, especially passenger airlines, might want to be viewed a little differently given the recent circumstances.

Also, you have to remember that the Transponder just provides secondary RADAR data.  The aircraft will always provide a Primary RADAR target regardless of the transponder switch position.  The transponder just tags on the flight call sign, destination, speed, and so forth next to the primary RADAR return. 

[arkmark]

Got it.  Thanks to both of you.  Always educational in these threads.  Especially you guys who fly for the USA, appreciate it always.

[Flying Razorback]

Got it.  Thanks to both of you.  Always educational in these threads.  Especially you guys who fly for the USA, appreciate it always.

It's just a different perspective.  My favorite part of this forum is the fact that we have airline pilots, civilian pilots, and military pilots who are able to discuss things.  I learn a lot from here because everyone brings in their unique perspective.  Honestly my reasoning behind why I personally wouldn't want measures like that is only based on my personal experience.  We have some airline guys here who could probably give great feedback as to whether or not they agree with those measures from that point of view.

[gotyacovered]

Also, requirements change in 2020, new minimum "out" requirements. They squeeze the NORDO airspace even more.

Just seems impossible to have no off switch. Just look out the window next time your at DFW or something, lotsa planes is a real small area.

[Old Tusk]

For safety reasons, every electrical circuit will have to be able to be de- powered.

[GusMcRae]

It does seem like there would be some sort of ELT device that would actually have to have been accessible by someone that knew where to find it, and the batteries taken out before it would not transmit a signal. 
The batteries have to be replaced, but you can't just turn it off from the cockpit in planes like mine.  They're just a self sufficient unit, mounted back in the tail section, and they have an antennae.  No idea what commercial jets have in lieu of a GA ELT. 

[twistitup]

Also, you have to remember that the Transponder just provides secondary RADAR data.  The aircraft will always provide a Primary RADAR target regardless of the transponder switch position.  The transponder just tags on the flight call sign, destination, speed, and so forth next to the primary RADAR return. 

Why all caps when you type RADAR?

[Flying Razorback]

Why all caps when you type RADAR?

It's grammatically correct.  It's an acronym that standards for Radio Detection And Ranging.  It's one of the ways to tell if you're reading technically competent work or not is if they are using acronyms and terms correctly.

Kind of on an off note, at work this morning we were all laughing at the incredible inaccuracies in the media reporting/conspiracy theories about this crash.  A lot of different pilots from different backgrounds and most of us couldn't think of any accurate statements from the media on this investigation.

Anyway, one thing someone brought up is "If you can see how inaccurate everything is from the media on something in which you're an expert, how could you ever believe them on anything in which you're not an expert?"  That was a pretty good question.

And the consensus at work is this guy flew in to the Indian Ocean and ran it out of gas and crashed/ditched.

[Flying Razorback]

A fun conspiracy I just saw in the Politics forum involved the 777 flying close formation with another 777 until it was able to peel off in a 'friendly' nation. 

I went to the website and the theory is based off the fact that the pilot would have used his TCAS display to see the other aircraft.  But if the whole thing is based on him turning off his Transponders, then he'd have no TCAS!

It must suck for people to build complex conspiracy theories and have one minor flaw bring the whole thing down.  Not to mention the intricacies involved in formation flying, especially in wide body aircraft by people who have never done it before.

[twistitup]

It's grammatically correct.  It's an acronym that standards for Radio Detection And Ranging.  It's one of the ways to tell if you're reading technically competent work or not is if they are using acronyms and terms correctly.

Kind of on an off note, at work this morning we were all laughing at the incredible inaccuracies in the media reporting/conspiracy theories about this crash.  A lot of different pilots from different backgrounds and most of us couldn't think of any accurate statements from the media on this investigation.

Anyway, one thing someone brought up is "If you can see how inaccurate everything is from the media on something in which you're an expert, how could you ever believe them on anything in which you're not an expert?"  That was a pretty good question.

And the consensus at work is this guy flew in to the Indian Ocean and ran it out of gas and crashed/ditched.

They cannot be believed on any subject - it's all drama and speculation - anything for ratings

[Flying Razorback]

They cannot be believed on any subject - it's all drama and speculation - anything for ratings

Absolutely.  Most of us understand that.  However the lower 80% and their Congressmen don't so we end up having to make changes against imaginary threats while fighting stupid conspiracies that build from bad reporting.  Those news sources are later used as fact here to support said conspiracies.

[Old Tusk]

Pretty sure that it on Gilligan's iIsland

[gotyacovered]

I have two theories:

The TV show Lost gets credit for one of them and the other is they will make us, Israel or another country shoot it down.

[arkmark]

A fun conspiracy I just saw in the Politics forum involved the 777 flying close formation with another 777 until it was able to peel off in a 'friendly' nation. 

I went to the website and the theory is based off the fact that the pilot would have used his TCAS display to see the other aircraft.  But if the whole thing is based on him turning off his Transponders, then he'd have no TCAS!

It must suck for people to build complex conspiracy theories and have one minor flaw bring the whole thing down.  Not to mention the intricacies involved in formation flying, especially in wide body aircraft by people who have never done it before.

Politics forum aside, I believe I am recalling correctly, that tactic was used by the Israelis in the Uganda raid to free hostages some years ago.  The raiders transport followed an airliner into the Entebbe (sp) airport to mask their approach.

[Flying Razorback]

Politics forum aside, I believe I am recalling correctly, that tactic was used by the Israelis in the Uganda raid to free hostages some years ago.  The raiders transport followed an airliner into the Entebbe (sp) airport to mask their approach.

They may have.  But the Israeli's are very good pilots and we're talking about different types of aircraft.

A 777 cruises at Mach .84.  Its max speed is .89 .  So just the intercept would take incredible calculation to hit it at the exact angle to prevent any kind of catch up because you don't have the speed to do so.  Its why we have slower speeds as the lead aircraft when enacting an enroute rejoin.  Then once in formation you speed up.  You have to give number 2 something to work with.

But then we are talking about doing this at night, on a near moonless night, without NVGs, without an air to air RADAR, without an air to air TACAN, with zero communication between the aircraft, without TCAS/ACAS, and with pilots who have never done this before. 

And the wake turbulence caused by a 777 would cause their formation geometry to be such that they would be visible to the lead aircraft outside their wing tip if they were really going to be flying that close.

This would be impossible or near impossible for some of the best pilots in the Air Force.  I doubt amateurs could do it with zero equipment on board.

[Flying Razorback]

Politics forum aside, I believe I am recalling correctly, that tactic was used by the Israelis in the Uganda raid to free hostages some years ago.  The raiders transport followed an airliner into the Entebbe (sp) airport to mask their approach.

And according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe

That's not what the Israelis did.  They used the perfect in every way C-130 Hercules to fly in and do what we do best.  We have ways of avoiding RADAR, we have air to ground RADAR, formation station keeping equipment, those old ones had navigators, excellent low altitude performance, and a ton of other things that make us awesome at getting in and out of countries without being detected or while operating in the low level environment.

[Brownstreak]

How many times do I have to explain to the buffoons in DST that there isn't a simple valve in the cockpit to turn of the O2 to the pax?  The idiocy being spread in the media is making it that much worse.  I don't know why I even bother with it.

[Flying Razorback]

How many times do I have to explain to the buffoons in DST that there isn't a simple valve in the cockpit to turn of the O2 to the pax?  The idiocy being spread in the media is making it that much worse.  I don't know why I even bother with it.

I feel you.  I have stopped getting caught up with it.  I was trying to stop disinformation to help people out, but people want it to be like some bad movie.  It's funny, I go to work with a bunch if highly experienced pilots and the speculation is simple.  I turn on the TV  or go to hogville and non flyers come up with wild guesses and all source each other.  And then refute us!

[Brownstreak]

Fools like Lsufan are convinced that the cockpit has some magic valve where the pilots can turn the air to the passenger cabin off.  I've tried to explain that it simply doesn't work like that, but they know best.  Whatever.  What's that saying about arguing with idiots only brings you down to their level?

[Ugly Uncle]

Very interesting thread.

So, the pilot could turn off everything right?  Is that what you are saying probably happened? 

Did the pilot run it out of gas on purpose? 

[Ugly Uncle]

I feel you.  I have stopped getting caught up with it.  I was trying to stop disinformation to help people out, but people want it to be like some bad movie.  It's funny, I go to work with a bunch if highly experienced pilots and the speculation is simple.  I turn on the TV  or go to hogville and non flyers come up with wild guesses and all source each other.  And then refute us!

Never mind.  I went back and read some of your post about an electrical fire and what would happen.  That makes the most sense of anything that I have seen or read.

Thanks for you input.  Great stuff.

[gotyacovered]

Fools like Lsufan are convinced that the cockpit has some magic valve where the pilots can turn the air to the passenger cabin off.  I've tried to explain that it simply doesn't work like that, but they know best.  Whatever.  What's that saying about arguing with idiots only brings you down to their level?

i read the first 3-4 post of that thread and left. why choose the truth when fantasy land is so much more fun? sigh.

[Old Tusk]

How are the pax oxygen masks deployed?

[gotyacovered]

How are the pax oxygen masks deployed?

either manually or automatically, when the altitude in the cabin reaches a certain altitude (or lower)...

edit: i am not 100% sure if manually OR automatically applies to the 777 type; could be one or the other. brownstreak or  flyingrzbkaf will know with certainty.

[Old Tusk]

I was thinking in terms of the doors being released electrical ly.

[gotyacovered]

I was thinking in terms of the doors being released electrical ly.

ok, gotcha. are you talking about the mechanism that actually opens the door so they can fall down for use? i know the door opens and gravity does the rest of the work.

i would have to think it electrical as primary. knowing this airframe it has two diff ways in which it happens, though. primary and a backup, or if it reaches some sort of minima they drop down regardless. (speculation)

[Brownstreak]

i read the first 3-4 post of that thread and left. why choose the truth when fantasy land is so much more fun? sigh.

I should've left just like you did.  If it weren't for When Pigs Fly, I might leave hogville all together.  There really are some morons on this site.

[CHELLO300]

I feel you.  I have stopped getting caught up with it.  I was trying to stop disinformation to help people out, but people want it to be like some bad movie.  It's funny, I go to work with a bunch if highly experienced pilots and the speculation is simple.  I turn on the TV  or go to hogville and non flyers come up with wild guesses and all source each other.  And then refute us!

FlyingRzrbkAF, why do we not hear about Diego Garcia in any of the media reports?

[gotyacovered]

I should've left just like you did.  If it weren't for When Pigs Fly, I might leave hogville all together.  There really are some morons on this site.

yep, there is no room for common sense and reality here;D

(except WPF, of course)

[Flying Razorback]

FlyingRzrbkAF, why do we not hear about Diego Garcia in any of the media reports?

Because the Air Force isn't going to let a bomber sized primary RADAR return approach from the east to a strategic site where we fly nuclear bombers and other strategic assets.  And if they had landed at Diego then the United States  Air Force could have said "Here it is!". And load up the passengers on a C-5 that's sitting there and take them back to Malaysia.