F-16 and Cessna 150 mid-air in SC

[Flying Razorback]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/07/officials-f-16-small-plane-collide-in-midair-over-south-carolina/


This is terrible to see.  The F-16 pilot ejected and survived but neither in the Cessna survived.

This is a sober reminder for a lot of us that fly in the Arkansas, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas region.  There is a LOT of low level military traffic and MOA work in these states. 

As someone who operates almost exclusively in the low level environment, in formation, in Arkansas, it can be hard to spot traffic.  We are normally task saturating ourselves and we often fail in our see and avoid and rely on TCAS, ATC, and the number of eyes in the formation to help spot and avoid traffic.

I don't believe this one happened on a low level or in a MOA, although there are both near to the crash site.  I think the Air Force said he was on an instrument training sortie so he was probably operating at Charleston AFB (KCHS). 

Keep your eyes out, talk to ATC if its an option, and squawk whenever you can.  Let's hope cases like this are rare.  And tailwinds to the two souls we lost today.

[popcornhog]

I have a question out of total ignorance. Please keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But if the pilot had the opportunity to eject, how didn't he or she have the ability to avoid the collision? In other words, if the pilot ejected, it must've been because he knew there was about to be a collision. Was there too little time to avoid the collision by then, but enough time to eject? If so, how does that work.

Thanks in advance for the explanation. Very sad.

[Flying Razorback]

I have a question out of total ignorance. Please keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But if the pilot had the opportunity to eject, how didn't he or she have the ability to avoid the collision? In other words, if the pilot ejected, it must've been because he knew there was about to be a collision. Was there too little time to avoid the collision by then, but enough time to eject? If so, how does that work.

Thanks in advance for the explanation. Very sad.

The ejection occurred after the collision.  It's fairly common when two jets run in to one another for at leat one  to be able to eject.  There were two F-16s that collided off the coast of SC in 2010 where one ejected and one didn't.  Same with two F16s over Kansas out of Tulsa, one ejected and the other was able to limp his plane home.

Same whenever they get shot down.  There's video of aircraft being hit by missiles and coming apart and an ejection seat flying out of the debris cloud.

[john c]

Wondering what devices the F-16 would have that would provide black box (have those?) crash info and assuming there isn't a camera.  Has there been any info as to where the 150 was hit?  One report I saw said broadside but I don't know how they would know or if there were any learned eyewitnesses.

One day in the early 70's, while shooting touch and go's in a 150 at our lonely remote airport, just as I turned final, two fast moving F-4s in formation came from my right and crossed between me and the runway at a lower altitude than the 400' AGL or so I was at.  The lateral distance between us would have been between an eighth and quarter mile.  The F-4 on the left side of the formation (closest to me) was a tad bit higher than the one on the right side.  It happened too fast for me to get real scared in the air but after landing (full stop this time) I had time to think.  It seemed like just a second or so from the time I saw them out of the corner of my right eye till they had passed and were climbing out to my left.  NO MOA there.  The son of a neighbor across the valley was a Captain in the USAF and he would occasionally buzz his parents house if he was in the area.  I remember him coming down about 100' over the tree tops one day between our house and our neighbor's house (about 3-400' apart) so I expect he was in the F-4 that scared me.  I've always assumed that he (they) saw me visually or on radar.  Probably many of you have had similar experiences tooling around the skies of Arkansas.

Yes, Lord comfort the families of the two on board the Cessna.

[Flying Razorback]

The F-16's black box will show accelerations in the form of G's and current power settings, velocity, GPS position, and more.  They'll be able to piece that with the ATC information to get the exact positioning of both aircraft.  Even if the C-150 was only a primary RADAR return they'll be able to go find that and put it in to the loop.

All those flyby experiences are from the old days before every single person had a video camera, the internet, and could broadcast those things.  I watched 4 guys take plea deals to avoid a court martial for flying below the minimum altitude allowed on a flyover.  They were at the Ohio State vs. Nebraska football game in Nebraska and the flyover was the tail end of the Sportscenter lead in that night.  You could clearly see the base's tail flash and the Wing Commander just happened to be watching.  Combined with the fact that about 20 different views of it all showed up on Youtube that night.  The Wing Commander called up there, grounded the crew, and made them rent a van and drive back to Oklahoma.  He sent other pilots up to recover the birds.  The lead aircraft lost his wings and was kicked out of the Air Force.  The rest received some form of formal punishment but were allowed to keep their wings in the plea because they could claim they were just flying visual off of lead so had no idea they were 1000' lower than they should have been...  Even though #4 jinked to miss the press box when he saw it in the corner of his eye.

[popcornhog]

The ejection occurred after the collision.  It's fairly common when two jets run in to one another for at leat one  to be able to eject.  There were two F-16s that collided off the coast of SC in 2010 where one ejected and one didn't.  Same with two F16s over Kansas out of Tulsa, one ejected and the other was able to limp his plane home.

Same whenever they get shot down.  There's video of aircraft being hit by missiles and coming apart and an ejection seat flying out of the debris cloud.

Thanks for the info. So the ejection process is automated on impact?

If so, how did the other pilot that you referenced in Kansas limp his plane home? Shouldn't he have auto ejected upon impact?

[Flying Razorback]

Thanks for the info. So the ejection process is automated on impact?

If so, how did the other pilot that you referenced in Kansas limp his plane home? Shouldn't he have auto ejected upon impact?

No, it's not auto.  They still have to grab the handle and pull.  But that takes a fraction of a second.  The aircraft rarely "explode", instead they break apart.  Since these are warplanes, there's often a little reinforcement around the cockpit as well.  If the aircraft hits right at the cockpit then it's likely the pilot will be killed instantly.  But if they hit the wing or tail or something then they can eject out of the cockpit which is now still flying/falling through the air.

In the Kansas one, this is the aircraft that made it back to Tulsa:


And here's the other one that was involved:




The one that got back home determined he was still controllable and decided not to eject.  The pilot that ejected was immediately uncontrollable and so he pulled the handle.

A famous mid-air was the "Tragedy at Green Ramp" at Pope AFB back in 1994.  A C-130 was in the pattern and turned final in front of an F-16 that was far away.  However, the F-16 was obviously moving a lot faster and hit the C-130 from behind.  The C-130 lost most of its tail but was able to land while the F-16 salvaged for a second, lost control, and then ejected.  The tragedy occurred because the F-16 then continued and hit the ramp where hundreds of paratroopers were waiting to board airplanes and killed around 22 of them.

[popcornhog]

No, it's not auto.  They still have to grab the handle and pull.  But that takes a fraction of a second.  The aircraft rarely "explode", instead they break apart.  Since these are warplanes, there's often a little reinforcement around the cockpit as well.  If the aircraft hits right at the cockpit then it's likely the pilot will be killed instantly.  But if they hit the wing or tail or something then they can eject out of the cockpit which is now still flying/falling through the air.

In the Kansas one, this is the aircraft that made it back to Tulsa:


And here's the other one that was involved:




The one that got back home determined he was still controllable and decided not to eject.  The pilot that ejected was immediately uncontrollable and so he pulled the handle.

A famous mid-air was the "Tragedy at Green Ramp" at Pope AFB back in 1994.  A C-130 was in the pattern and turned final in front of an F-16 that was far away.  However, the F-16 was obviously moving a lot faster and hit the C-130 from behind.  The C-130 lost most of its tail but was able to land while the F-16 salvaged for a second, lost control, and then ejected.  The tragedy occurred because the F-16 then continued and hit the ramp where hundreds of paratroopers were waiting to board airplanes and killed around 22 of them.

Very informative. Thanks.

[Flying Razorback]

Very informative. Thanks.

No problem, I love talking about aircraft.  And I read every accident report that I come across.  When I get my monthly copy of "Flying" magazine I flip straight to the "On The Record" section that provides NTSB excerpts of general aviation accidents and one long narrative of a crash and what went wrong.

This F-16 crash in to a Cessna is troubling to me because it can happen to any of us in this forum.  I regularly fly low level and in the RADAR pattern in this region and a lot of others in here fly general aviation in this area too.  It's scary how fast something like this can happen when everything else seems like a routine flight.

[bvillepig]

Thanks so much for all the info. I love getting info from you guys.

[Flying Razorback]

Here is the preliminary report from the NTSB:

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150707X22207&key=2


Looks like things happened pretty fast and there was some altitude discrepancy between what the controller was seeing on the RADAR and the altitude at which the collision happened.  They said the traffic was 100' below at 1400' which is still unacceptable, but they were apparently at co-altitude.

Also the RADAR call out to the F-16 about traffic didn't occur until the traffic was inside of 2 miles.  That's very close for something slow moving like a Herk and Cessna, let alone an F-16 and a Cessna.

It looks like the pilot of the F-16 tried to stay with it as long as he could but bailed out around 300'.

[Old Tusk]

What I read indicated that the F 16 pilot didn't respond to ATC 's directives to turn.

[Flying Razorback]

What I read indicated that the F 16 pilot didn't respond to ATC 's directives to turn.

I don't think it's as simple as that.  I think it was a bigger miscommunication.  There were also some problems with the -150 because he told ATC he was at 1400 and instead the collision happened at 1500. 

I thought originally that the controller was calling the target as a secondary ATC return which would indicate reporting altitude.  But the Cessna wasn't squawking (and wasn't required to) and so they only had the altitude that the Cessna said they were at which was level at 1400.

The controller should never let them get that close to begin with.  The first traffic call to the F-16 is:

traffic 12 o'clock, 2 miles, opposite direction, 1,200 indicated, type unknown

That's way too close to be getting a first target call when the F-16 is traveling at 300 Knots (5 miles a minute) so 1 mile every 12 seconds.

The first turn call was 8 seconds later, so about 1 mile traveled by the F-16:

Turn left heading 180 if you don't have that traffic in sight.

That's also a bad call when you are dealing with two targets inside of 20 seconds from impact.  Instead they should say "Turn immediately..."  Whenever you get an immediate call, you're supposed to start a turn at that moment at 3 degrees per second. 

Even if the F-16 responds immediately and begins a 3 degree per second turn in an indicated direction, he's moving at 300 KIAS and his turn radius is 3 miles.  So his turn radius is already bigger than the traffic distance.

But he didn't get an "immediate" turn, he was only told to turn if unable to find the traffic.  So the first thing he did, probably, and what I would do, is look for the traffic for a few seconds.

The pilot did look and said "confirm 2 miles?" and that's when the controller stated (16 seconds from initial call):

If you don't have that traffic in sight turn left heading 180 immediately.

Again, he puts a qualifier on the turn instead of directing in immediate turn.

The two aircraft collided in that turn.  31 seconds from the initial target call the RADAR returns were only 1/2 mile separated.  They collided a few seconds later.  The F-16 has a confirmed RADAR altitude of 1,500 MSL but the Cessna only had its reported altitude of 1,400 MSL.  Both could have been slightly off altitude or the Cessna could have floated up towards 1,500 MSL.  100' off is easy to accidentally do especially if you're looking for traffic.

It's a tragedy.  I think a lot of it will end up being placed on the controller.  The Cessna pilot was legal for everything he was doing.  It might not be a bad idea to squawk mode 3 when departing from an airport below the RADAR pattern of an international airport.  I know it's not required, but maybe it would have given the F-16 a TCAS hit to avoid.

I read accident reports as often as I can because I always see how easily this could happen to me.  As I've said in this thread, this case is far more likely to happen to any of us in Arkansas/Oklahoma/Texas/Mississippi than we normally would like to believe.

[Razorback7281]

All those flyby experiences are from the old days before every single person had a video camera, the internet, and could broadcast those things.  I watched 4 guys take plea deals to avoid a court martial for flying below the minimum altitude allowed on a flyover.  They were at the Ohio State vs. Nebraska football game in Nebraska and the flyover was the tail end of the Sportscenter lead in that night.  You could clearly see the base's tail flash and the Wing Commander just happened to be watching.  Combined with the fact that about 20 different views of it all showed up on Youtube that night.  The Wing Commander called up there, grounded the crew, and made them rent a van and drive back to Oklahoma.  He sent other pilots up to recover the birds.  The lead aircraft lost his wings and was kicked out of the Air Force.  The rest received some form of formal punishment but were allowed to keep their wings in the plea because they could claim they were just flying visual off of lead so had no idea they were 1000' lower than they should have been...  Even though #4 jinked to miss the press box when he saw it in the corner of his eye.

Here's a couple videos of that.  Looks like it was at Iowa vs Ohio St.  Man they were low.

[Flying Razorback]

Here's a couple videos of that.  Looks like it was at Iowa vs Ohio St.  Man they were low.

Yep!  That's the one.  Ohio State at Iowa in 2010.  They were far too low.  You see #4 out of position because he saw the press box and thought he was going to hit it.

The lead pilot had been hired by the Iowa ANG F-16 unit and this was supposed to be his "Fini" flight on Active Duty.  But he lost his wings and had to go find a new job.

Aviation is dangerous.  We forget that sometimes and overestimate our own abilities too often.

[riccoar]

No, it's not auto.  They still have to grab the handle and pull.  But that takes a fraction of a second.  The aircraft rarely "explode", instead they break apart.  Since these are warplanes, there's often a little reinforcement around the cockpit as well.  If the aircraft hits right at the cockpit then it's likely the pilot will be killed instantly.  But if they hit the wing or tail or something then they can eject out of the cockpit which is now still flying/falling through the air.

In the Kansas one, this is the aircraft that made it back to Tulsa:


And here's the other one that was involved:




The one that got back home determined he was still controllable and decided not to eject.  The pilot that ejected was immediately uncontrollable and so he pulled the handle.

A famous mid-air was the "Tragedy at Green Ramp" at Pope AFB back in 1994.  A C-130 was in the pattern and turned final in front of an F-16 that was far away.  However, the F-16 was obviously moving a lot faster and hit the C-130 from behind.  The C-130 lost most of its tail but was able to land while the F-16 salvaged for a second, lost control, and then ejected.  The tragedy occurred because the F-16 then continued and hit the ramp where hundreds of paratroopers were waiting to board airplanes and killed around 22 of them.

Ah, Pope 1994.  That was the intelligence of McPeak and his Air Force Expeditionary Wing concept.  He was a dumbass.