Team Chemistry and Attitude Problems

[bigdaddyhawg]

I think Mike is kind of between a rock and a hard place with this team right now, and I believe it's due to some serious attitude problems from players who should be leaders on this team.

I've never believed Mike is a great coach, but I know he's better than what we've seen from this team the last two games.  And I think the problem goes deeper than schemes and substitution problems.

For a team to look so good a week ago vs. Vandy to looking so clueless and out of sync is about something that goes to player character and attitude.

Yesterday I saw two different glimpses into the mindset/attitude of one of the key players on this team that told me it's all about the "me" for the kid.  And this is a kid that Mike really needs to provide solid leadership and to give himself to the team.

And it's not just the one player, either. There's another key player who has demonstrated very similar issues.

That's the rock Mike is dealing with.  The "hard place" is that Mike is being forced to either live with it and try to make the best of things, hoping they will get better, or to "blow the team up", cut your losses with the kid, and strike out in a new direction.

And although many fans wouldn't mind seeing that, it's a very risky course of action.

Either way, I don't think it's going to be good -- at least for this year.  Hoping for it to get better, but not expecting it.

One more thing: many point to how our losses for next year are going to mean a step back, but I'm not so sure about that.  Sometimes you get addition by subtraction, and I think the team could actually play better ball next year IF the team leadership and attitude is right.

[The NewEra]

There is a point in time where the kids are no longer to be blamed.  I think we are there now.  Coaches are paid to coach and I think developing team chemistry and dealing with attitudes are two of the most obvious aspects of coaching.

[rude1]

Four years in and we still don't have good guard play. Recruiting matters.

[hogfan10]

I'm guessing the main person is Madden and the next one is Harris. I couldn't agree more if that's the case.

Again I don't get this. Madden is the ONE player we have that makes an attempt to get his teammates the ball in a position to score. If anything he needs to be more selfish and look for his shot more.

[LSPRazorbac]

There is a point in time where the kids are no longer to be blamed.  I think we are there now.  Coaches are paid to coach and I think developing team chemistry and dealing with attitudes are two of the most obvious aspects of coaching.

Gotta agree with this.

[NaturalStateReb]

I think they're really struggling to find effective point guard play, which is critical in the college game.

[The NewEra]

I think they're really struggling to find effective point guard play, which is critical in the college game.

I totally agree, but you can't get good point guard play if your PG's only play for 5 and 6 minutes.  I think those are the numbers I saw posted in another thread.

I'm certainly not a coach, but if I were and I were trying to shut down some very good guards from Ole Miss I would have my guards in the majority of the game and they would be told to stick to those guards like Velcro. 

[rude1]

I think they're really struggling to find effective point guard play, which is critical in the college game.

Fixed that for you, now i can agree. It's not just point guard play, guard play on this team is anaemic at best. There is no solid guard on the team, we are constantly rotating guys in and out trying to find one that fits the occasion. Guard recruitment over the last 4 years hasn't been good. Just ask yourselves this: "If we had OM guards, how good would this team be?"

[bigdaddyhawg]

There is a point in time where the kids are no longer to be blamed.  I think we are there now.  Coaches are paid to coach and I think developing team chemistry and dealing with attitudes are two of the most obvious aspects of coaching.

I agree.  But Madden was not recruited by Mike.  He's a guy who flashes potential, but rarely delivers.

But I believe he's probably the guy the young players look up to, hence his influence on this team, for good or bad.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Again I don't get this. Madden is the ONE player we have that makes an attempt to get his teammates the ball in a position to score. If anything he needs to be more selfish and look for his shot more.

Could not disagree more.

Madden dominates the ball when he's in the game.  He's a poor distributor of the ball.  I just don't believe he's got much court smarts.

Beard came in and in his first touch of the ball found the open man vs. the zone with a crisp pass in a position for the guy to shoot.

I don't think Madden did that once the whole game.

When he's running point the offense slows to an inept crawl.

But that's nowhere near the more serious problem I was addressing in the OP.

[elkhog]

There is a point in time where the kids are no longer to be blamed.  I think we are there now.  Coaches are paid to coach and I think developing team chemistry and dealing with attitudes are two of the most obvious aspects of coaching.

Nailed it.

[LSPRazorbac]

I think they're really struggling to find effective point guard play, which is critical in the college game.

I am going to guess that you are always going to struggle with your point guard play when:

Your offense doesn't run set plays

+

You continually sub players in and out and change the personnel groupings

+

Don't have a true Low Post game

+

Play a fast chaotic style

=

Poor point guard play



With this style, I think you have to rely more on your supporting cast to help your point guard out.

[3kgthog]

What happened to Madden between the end of last season and today? Last season we finished up debating if he should've made one of the All-SEC teams. Now...I don't know what we're seeing now.

[Danny J]

Could not disagree more.

Madden dominates the ball when he's in the game.  He's a poor distributor of the ball.  I just don't believe he's got much court smarts.

Beard came in and in his first touch of the ball found the open man vs. the zone with a crisp pass in a position for the guy to shoot.

I don't think Madden did that once the whole game.

When he's running point the offense slows to an inept crawl.

But that's nowhere near the more serious problem I was addressing in the OP.

I agree and it doesn't speak to how poorly he is on defense. Can't leave out Bell or Durham in that conversation either. They are just as bad on that end of the court. A majority of the minutes need to go to Beard, Babb and Watkins to at least see what they can do.

[Atlhogfan1]

Combo guards work fine in this system if they are true combo guards capable of defending as well. Beard is as close as we have and he isn't ready to play consistently on this level. 

The biggest attitude problem is still with the program because of his importance. 

[alohawg]

I'm guessing the main person is Madden and the next one is Harris. I couldn't agree more if that's the case.

I saw the game, haven't looked at the stats but I can only imagine how many combined turnovers they had yesterday. Both should have been spectators much more than participants. What I saw was mind boggling. Count me in the camp that doesn't get CMA's master plan.

[Atlhogfan1]

Mike needs to find some Patrick Beverley's.  Versatile guards capable of scoring, playing on and off the ball and with a toughness and a desire to defend well. 

[Danny J]

Mike needs to find some Patrick Beverley's.  Versatile guards capable of scoring, playing on and off the ball and with a toughness and a desire to defend well.

We have one coming next year but that won't be enough. I think Whitt plus Beard is a start. Haven't seen enough of Babb. If we lose Portis next year we will be back to where we were last year. If we lose Qualls and Portis we will really struggle.

[bigdaddyhawg]

I agree and it doesn't speak to how poorly he is on defense. Can't leave out Bell or Durham in that conversation either. They are just as bad on that end of the court. A majority of the minutes need to go to Beard, Babb and Watkins to at least see what they can do.

I said two weeks ago that I wanted to see Babb get Madden's minutes, but if Mike were to do that IMO he risks "losing the team", which is not a term I like to use.

[bigdaddyhawg]

I agree and it doesn't speak to how poorly he is on defense. Can't leave out Bell or Durham in that conversation either. They are just as bad on that end of the court. A majority of the minutes need to go to Beard, Babb and Watkins to at least see what they can do.

IMO the defensive deficiencies of Bell and Durham are largely related to Mike's philosophy of double teaming and switching and to hell with keeping fundamental guarding positions.

[Danny J]

IMO the defensive deficiencies of Bell and Durham are largely related to Mike's philosophy of double teaming and switching and to hell with keeping fundamental guarding positions.

It is which is why he needs to do a better job of finding players to fit this system. Instead it is a hodgepodge collection of random guards who lack the ability to do one or multiple things being asked of them. We will be damn glad he was on Whitt early. Now CMA has to do the recruiting job of his life and convince Portis and Qualls to stay to go along with Beard and Whitt. He MUST convince those two guys.

[bigdaddyhawg]

It is which is why he needs to do a better job of finding players to fit this system. Instead it is a hodgepodge collection of random guards who lack the ability to do one or multiple things being asked of them. We will be damn glad he was on Whitt early. Now CMA has to do the recruiting job of his life and convince Portis and Qualls to stay to go along with Beard and Whitt. He MUST convince those two guys.

We will certainly miss Bobby. Qualls? Perhaps not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the guy.  There's a lot he can do.  But he may be part of the "addition by subtraction" equation.

[Big Nasty 34]

Again I don't get this. Madden is the ONE player we have that makes an attempt to get his teammates the ball in a position to score. If anything he needs to be more selfish and look for his shot more.

Actually, durham is probably the only guy who you could call the ONE making an attempt to set things up. That's all be does is facilitate! Nobody else makes that pass to kingsley on the missed dunk IMO.

[jfred59]

We have one coming next year but that won't be enough. I think Whitt plus Beard is a start. Haven't seen enough of Babb. If we lose Portis next year we will be back to where we were last year. If we lose Qualls and Portis we will really struggle.

We always have one coming "Next Year".  I am sick of next year

[lefty08]

Could not disagree more.

Madden dominates the ball when he's in the game.  He's a poor distributor of the ball.  I just don't believe he's got much court smarts.

Beard came in and in his first touch of the ball found the open man vs. the zone with a crisp pass in a position for the guy to shoot.

I don't think Madden did that once the whole game.

When he's running point the offense slows to an inept crawl.

But that's nowhere near the more serious problem I was addressing in the OP.

Madden leads the team in assists, to say he is a poor distributor is just not correct.
As a matter of fact he was leading the SEC in the assist category for awhile at something  like 7 a game, that's not a terrible distributor

Some of you guys need to pay attention and actually form your own opinions and not retread everything you hear on a message board

[TNhawgfan]

It is which is why he needs to do a better job of finding players to fit this system. Instead it is a hodgepodge collection of random guards who lack the ability to do one or multiple things being asked of them. We will be damn glad he was on Whitt early. Now CMA has to do the recruiting job of his life and convince Portis and Qualls to stay to go along with Beard and Whitt. He MUST convince those two guys.

Portis should go pro if he's top 20. Take the $ and run

[Breems]

I don't think there are chemistry problems. We know good and well what that looks like.

We just have a very poor backcourt.

[Atlhogfan1]

Forgotten in our discussions while focusing on the backcourt is we are ignoring the frontcourt combo of Harris/Williams.

[WilsonHog]

I don't think there are chemistry problems. We know good and well what that looks like.

We just have a very poor backcourt.

Frustrating.

This time last year, the talking point was that Madden wasn't a true point guard.  That was okay, though, because Anton Beard was supposed to be the guy. Or was that Jabril Durham?

Nope.

Madden has 88 assists, with an A/TO ratio of 2.05:1.

Beard's ratio is 1.46:1 (19 assists and 13 turnovers).

Durham's ratio is 2.79:1 (39 assists and 14 turnovers).

[Hammibal Lecter]

OP

Why so vague about what you saw that made you believe these things. Tell us what you saw. I bet a dollar I saw it too (occurred as camera panned bench after a substitution?), but is there a reason to be vague?

[WilsonHog]

OP

Why so vague about what you saw that made you believe these things. Tell us what you saw. I bet a dollar I saw it too (occurred as camera panned bench after a substitution?), but is there a reason to be vague?

Well, what did you see?

[RussVegas Hawg]

Just my opinion which means nothing. More Beard, Kingsley, and Babb and way less of Madden, Harris, and Durham.

Madden and Harris have had their chance and they keep proving they're more a negative factor then a positive one.

[Hammibal Lecter]

Well, what did you see?

Madden getting real mouthy with someone, couldn't tell who. Then pouting about it.

[Atlhogfan1]

Madden was upset when he sat on the bench and the camera focused on him.  Qualls talked to him on his way off.  We have no idea that conversation or what Madden was frustrated with to have any idea of an attitude or chemistry problem. 

The chemistry problem is finding the right combo of players to play how Coach A is insisting on playing. 

Madden getting real mouthy with someone, couldn't tell who. Then pouting about it.

You have no idea what was said, the context of it or if he was pouting about it.  He may have been upset with himself over something or an official. 

[bigdaddyhawg]

Madden leads the team in assists, to say he is a poor distributor is just not correct.
As a matter of fact he was leading the SEC in the assist category for awhile at something  like 7 a game, that's not a terrible distributor

Some of you guys need to pay attention and actually form your own opinions and not retread everything you hear on a message board

Your stats are misleading.

When you have Portis and Qualls to pass to you SHOULD lead the league in assists.

Madden doesn't instigate offense, he stymies it with constant pounding the ball and making passes that don't lead to anything.

His penetration skills are dismal, usually leading to a dumb turnover.

If you understood how a PG is supposed to aid in the flow of an offense you wouldn't be defending him.

But I blame Mike for using him at the point, because Madden doesn't help the team there.

He's got one skill that Mike should be using more efficiently: he's a very good catch and shoot long range bomber.  Mike could use him to break a zone by putting him in open areas and having him stay there, waiting patiently for a real PG to penetrate and kick the ball to him.

But I don't believe for a second that Madden woulds settle for that role.  He sees himself as a poor man's Lebron, a scorer and center piece of the offense.

And therein lies a big part of the problem.

If Madden played for OM he'd be the last guy off the bench.

[WilsonHog]

Just my opinion which means nothing. More Beard, Kingsley, and Babb and way less of Madden, Harris, and Durham.

Madden and Harris have had their chance and they keep proving they're more a negative factor then a positive one.

Moses is struggling with what he is being asked to do defensively, so much so that he is becoming a liability. He's best as a rim protector and a force inside; I've seen all I care to of him above the top of the key.

[Atlhogfan1]

Your stats are misleading.

When you have Portis and Qualls to pass to you SHOULD lead the league in assists.

Madden doesn't instigate offense, he stymies it with constant pounding the ball and making passes that don't leads to anything.

His penetration skills are dismal, usually leading to a dumb turnover.

If you understood how a PG is supposed to aid in the flow of an offense you wouldn't be defending him.

But I blame Mike for using him at the point, because Madden doesn't help the team there.

He's got one skill that Mike should be using more efficiently: he's a very good catch and shoot long range bomber.  Mike could use him to break a zone by putting him in open areas and having him stay there, waiting patiently for a real PG to penetrate and kick the ball to him.

But I don't believe for a second that Madden woulds settle for that role.  He sees himself as a poor man's Lebron, a scorer and center piece of the offense.

And therein lies a big part of the problem.

It isn't up to Madden to decide his role.

Who is that real PG?

[Hammibal Lecter]

Madden was upset when he sat on the bench and the camera focused on him.  Qualls talked to him on his way off.  We have no idea that conversation or what Madden was frustrated with to have any idea of an attitude or chemistry problem. 

The chemistry problem is finding the right combo of players to play how Coach A is insisting on playing. 

You have no idea what was said, the context of it or if he was pouting about it.  He may have been upset with himself over something or an official. 

did you see me post what I thought he said? All I did was relay info.  I've been sitting on bball benches for a long time and when a player is upset it's different from when he's being an ahole. This was an ahole moment. But I won't guess as to what happened and fully admit I could be wrong, it's happened once before.

[Breems]

Madden was upset when he sat on the bench and the camera focused on him. 

It was directly after Madden had made a few consecutive hustle plays and was checked out right when the crowd was getting into it. I bet that's why.

[Atlhogfan1]

It was directly after Madden had made a few consecutive hustle plays and was checked out right when the crowd was getting into it. I bet that's why.

I think that is a good guess.  Still searching for roles and sub patterns and lineups has to be affecting players' mindsets and rhythms. 

[bigdaddyhawg]

It isn't up to Madden to decide his role.

I think I covered that issue in that post.

Who is that real PG?

That's a valid question.

I think the combination of Durham, Beard, and Babb should split minutes at the point, giving whoever produces best the most minutes that night.

I wouldn't expect that trio to solve all our problems there, but it would be much better than Madden there.

An added benefit would be to get the young guys more game experience.

It's a moot point though.  Mike's going to sink or swim with Madden there.

[bigdaddyhawg]

It was directly after Madden had made a few consecutive hustle plays and was checked out right when the crowd was getting into it. I bet that's why.

Perhaps, but it speaks volumes to openly disrespect the HC in that manner.  And that's a big part of the chemistry problem you don't believe exists.

[bigdaddyhawg]

OP

Why so vague about what you saw that made you believe these things. Tell us what you saw. I bet a dollar I saw it too (occurred as camera panned bench after a substitution?), but is there a reason to be vague?

Yes, the post would have been way too long to explain the details.

[Atlhogfan1]

I think I covered that issue in that post.

That's a valid question.

I think the combination of Durham, Beard, and Babb should split minutes at the point, giving whoever produces best the most minutes that night.

I wouldn't expect that trio to solve all our problems there, but it would be much better than Madden there.

An added benefit would be to get the young guys more game experience.

It's a moot point though.  Mike's going to sink or swim with Madden there.

It may solve some problems but it could very well make others worse.  Try to help the offense and it hurts the defense the way we are playing.  Help the defense and Portis and Qualls are totally carrying the team. 

The team needs to find consistent help for Portis and Qualls in scoring.  If the F's were providing it or Bell, then the risk of taking out a 46% 3pt shooter, 90+% from the line who does score in double figures and is capable of 20 point games and is on pace for 150+ assists for guards who have given almost nothing offensively would be less.  Beard and Durham may be better passers, better defenders but can Coach A afford to go with them or Babb who doesn't even have a FT attempt this season along with two other players who aren't consistent.  Try to solve the defensive problem or turnover problem and the offensive problem may get worse.  Go with offense and the others seem to get worse.  Watkins would be good for more minutes if Bell, Harris or Williams were consistent.


I think Coach A should slow and tighten the rotation and do more to hide deficiencies on defense and put players like Kingsley in a position to succeed on the defensive end and then maybe we could begin to find answers.  Otherwise, I think the hope is Bell, Harris and/or Williams gets hot.  Not the way I would go about it. 

[Letsroll1200]

Madden was upset when he sat on the bench and the camera focused on him.  Qualls talked to him on his way off.  We have no idea that conversation or what Madden was frustrated with to have any idea of an attitude or chemistry problem. 

The chemistry problem is finding the right combo of players to play how Coach A is insisting on playing. 

You have no idea what was said, the context of it or if he was pouting about it.  He may have been upset with himself over something or an official.

Madden had a right to be upset because we was about to make a push. MA put Watkins in the game and we throw the ball away on a inbound pass. This moment in the game resulted in us losing against Ole Miss. Madden and Qualls play selective defense right now.

[Atlhogfan1]

Madden had a right to be upset because we was about to make a push. MA put Watkins in the game and we throw the ball away on a inbound pass. This moment in the game resulted in us losing against Ole Miss. Madden and Qualls play selective defense right now.

They aren't alone on the selective defense.  I can understand why he would be upset.  Just don't know what was said or to whom to be critical of him.

[rude1]

Moses is struggling with what he is being asked to do defensively, so much so that he is becoming a liability. He's best as a rim protector and a force inside; I've seen all I care to of him above the top of the key.

^^This X Infinity......I am still trying to figure out what we are trying to accomplish defensively by asking our bigs to ball screen switch 25' from the basket and attempt to guard a smaller quicker player? This is just bad fundamental basketball that teams are going to exploit over and over by having that guard beat the bigger player off the dribble or simply have him heave up a shot then destroy us on the offensive glass with their big matched with a guard. I have scratched my head on this one from the beginning with CMA.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Madden had a right to be upset because we was about to make a push.

So Madden has a right to be upset about how the HC calls substitutions for the team??

I think you, like Madden, are confused about the responsibilities of the HC and those of a player.

So who gives a rat's backend if he's upset??  No one should.

But regardless, you don't show up your coach like that -- EVER!!

Unless you put yourself above the team.

[Atlhogfan1]

So Madden has a right to be upset about how the HC calls substitutions for the team??

I think you, like Madden, are confused about the responsibilities of the HC and those of a player.

So who gives a rat's backend if he's upset??  No one should.

But regardless, you don't show up your coach like that -- EVER!!

Unless you put yourself above the team.

You are making an assumption that is what happened.  For this discussion, we'll say it did.  What does that say about the coaching staff?  Who is the enforcer on the staff?  Watkins, Zimmerman, TJ?  Did any of them go over and address it? 

[bigdaddyhawg]

You are making an assumption that is what happened.  For this discussion, we'll say it did.  What does that say about the coaching staff?  Who is the enforcer on the staff?  Watkins, Zimmerman, TJ?  Did any of them go over and address it? 

I think you make an excellent point.

There's so much malarkey I've seen recently, and all I can think is "Wow, you'd never see Nolan putting up with that bull."

And I think that's important.  I'm not seeing that Nolan toughness or his demanding the team to be great.