Thoughts on the running game

[Elvis P Hogg]

 I would love to get your guys thoughts on the running game. What is the most puzzling thing to me and I'm sure to Coach B. Is our inability to run the ball against SEC opponents we have not been able to run, except with a few rare exceptions against our conference  opponents. We seem to build up our running game stats against lesser opponents and then run into a brick wall against better competition. Not only is our  running game seem to be in adequate it seems to be below that of other SEC schools. Would anyone like to weigh in with their thoughts on why this is the case, and how it might possibly get better since this is Coach B s Philosophy and DNA

[hawginbigd1]

Simply put, in conference play we go against the best LBs in the world!

[factchecker]

In 2015 we ranked 5th in the SEC in rushing vs. conference opponents.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2015/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category01/sort01.html

In 2016 we fell off considerably but we were replacing 3 starting offensive linemen and Alex Collins.  We finished 10th in the SEC in rushing vs. conference opponents.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category01/sort01.html

What is funny is that everyone hee-haws about "ground and pound offense" but we've been towards the top in passing vs. conference opponents:

2015 we finished 3rd in passing vs. conference foes:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2015/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category02/sort01.html

2016 we finished 2nd in passing vs. conference foes:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category02/sort01.html

Pretty good for "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense.

[factchecker]

In reply to my post:

Why does every idiot on Hogville say we are a ground and pound offense?  The stats prove the exact opposite.

[PossumFan]

In 2015 we ranked 5th in the SEC in rushing vs. conference opponents.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2015/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category01/sort01.html

In 2016 we fell off considerably but we were replacing 3 starting offensive linemen and Alex Collins.  We finished 10th in the SEC in rushing vs. conference opponents.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category01/sort01.html

What is funny is that everyone hee-haws about "ground and pound offense" but we've been towards the top in passing vs. conference opponents:

2015 we finished 3rd in passing vs. conference foes:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2015/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category02/sort01.html

2016 we finished 2nd in passing vs. conference foes:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/leader/911/team/offense/split07/category02/sort01.html

Pretty good for "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense.

Good info. This is why there were times when I thought we needed to pass first to loosen up the D against the run. I'm certainly no expert, though.

[factchecker]

In regards to the future.  I think we will rely more heavily on the run game this season due to the departure of receiving weapons (Keon, Drew etc.)

Our running game looks to be in good hands:

[hawginbigd1]

In reply to my post:

Why does every idiot on Hogville say we are a ground and pound offense?  The stats prove the exact opposite.

Idiot is a little nasty, but I think we pass much more than we want to. I think most identify with what BB would like to be, which is a physical ball control offense that passes the ball when we want to!

[factchecker]

Idiot is a little nasty, but I think we pass much more than we want to. I think most identify with what BB would like to be, which is a physical ball control offense that passes the ball when we want to!

When you hear people parrot "ground and pound", "3 yards and a cloud of dust", "houston nutt offense".... idiot fits. 

We aren't running smoke draws and RB dives 20 times in a row.

[luke hawg]

Response 1: Bielema's DNA is actually not his at all. He was simply a yes man for Alvarez much like Nutt was for Broyles. The running game at Wisconsin is built on home grown linemen that push around lesser opponents in the weaker side of the Big 10. He only looked elite because UM and OSU were weak during his time at Wisconsin. Bobby left Arkansas well enough and his style will never work in the West. He is way over his head in the SEC and will be replaced in time.

Response 2: Bielema is actually early in his career and at this point has a fantastic resume. The job he took over at Arkansas was a disaster in need of a complete makeover after BP and JLS burned it to the ground. The process of building a dominant offensive line takes time. The team needs to develop a solid redshirt program so players like Kirkland, Skipper, Ragnow, and Froholdt aren't thrown into action too early. We have just now developed true depth on the offensive line with 16 scholarship linemen already on campus. This style once fully implemented will allow us to compete every year and avoid losing seasons that have been major setbacks in the past. To this point, Bielema has made due with the talent left over and acquired during losing seasons. His style will soon become evident as the personnel becomes more conducive to pounding the rock.

[Elvis P Hogg]

In reply to my post:

Why does every idiot on Hogville say we are a ground and pound offense?  The stats prove the exact opposite.

Simply wanted to have a discussion around the running game
There is not a person on hogville that feels comfortable running the ball consistently when we need one or two yards  and that is a major problem

Just looking for some hopeful solutions for the future

[ballz2thewall]

the answer to that is johnathan williams as far as reality is concerned, with kody walker as an illusion.

with williams we had the ability to get the tough yard. not so with any of the other backs, including collins and most definitely not including walker.

collins would get yards; no doubt. but it was altogether different than what williams could do; ground, but no pound.

williams changed what the opponents had to watch our for. the rest didn't. walker was billed as a pounder but never materialized in a meaningful way.

so, to summarize, Jonathan williams built that legend and it was hyperbolized because of the proliferation of the spread and read offenses in contrast. we still get billing for that legend because we have a back that'll get 1000 yards.

[factchecker]

Simply wanted to have a discussion around the running game
There is not a person on hogville that feels comfortable running the ball consistently when we need one or two yards  and that is a major problem

Just looking for some hopeful solutions for the future

My post wasn't directed towards you.

You bring up a good point.  I think we have to find a way to utilize speed more in our offense.  I hope Hammonds is given more carries next season.

[factchecker]

the answer to that is johnathan williams as far as reality is concerned, with kody walker as an illusion.

with williams we had the ability to get the tough yard. not so with any of the other backs, including collins and most definitely not including walker.

collins would get yards; no doubt. but it was altogether different than what williams could do; ground, but no pound.

williams changed what the opponents had to watch our for. the rest didn't. walker was billed as a pounder but never materialized in a meaningful way.

so, to summarize, Jonathan williams built that legend and it was hyperbolized because of the proliferation of the spread and read offenses in contrast. we still get billing for that legend because we have a back that'll get 1000 yards.

I agree with your post about Walker.  I appreciate the effort and work Walker put in but I can't help to think we wasted reps with him this season.  He was not the same.... as to be expected after suffering multiple injuries that required surgery.

[ricepig]

the answer to that is johnathan williams as far as reality is concerned, with kody walker as an illusion.

with williams we had the ability to get the tough yard. not so with any of the other backs, including collins and most definitely not including walker.

collins would get yards; no doubt. but it was altogether different than what williams could do; ground, but no pound.

williams changed what the opponents had to watch our for. the rest didn't. walker was billed as a pounder but never materialized in a meaningful way.

so, to summarize, Jonathan williams built that legend and it was hyperbolized because of the proliferation of the spread and read offenses in contrast. we still get billing for that legend because we have a back that'll get 1000 yards.

I agree about JWill, I thought he got the most out of every carry. Kody didn't have any shake or bake, and lacked the ability to make a tough yard from the RB position. He got some yards from FB when he hit the hole quicker, he should have played there this year.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

We have very good running backs.....but have trouble running the ball against good defenses.  Good defenses stack the LOS against us, & we get stuffed too often.  We need to be able to audible out of a bad running plays, & hit a hot receiver when they have 7-8 men around the LOS.  Would like to see Whaley & RW lll in the same backfield some, & more spread formations on offense.  We're really not a good power run team, against good defenses.  They seem to know what we're going to do, too often.  We usually throw the ball better, than running it...when we protect our QB.  Our offensive scheme, needs some serious change.

[gawntrail]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

[Jonteviosk]

My post wasn't directed towards you.

You bring up a good point.  I think we have to find a way to utilize speed more in our offense.  I hope Hammonds is given more carries next season.

Hammonds is not going to see the field a lot next year. RWIII Was the SECs leading rusher and Whaley had a great second half of the season. Already set there. Maybe Hammonds can move to WR. Receiving corps s still ok. We have Jared Cornelius back and signed top JUCO wr in country. Also have Cragg and Cantrell at TE were good there too if OL holds up and improves.

[Jonteviosk]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.



We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

No we will continue to try and run Burts pound the rock philosophy.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

I believe that you need to be able to do both (quick lateral movement and plowing for three yards or less), when the need arises. But like you, I am an advocate of a large O-Line, just not one that needs to be known as the largest in all of football, or even third largest. I'd like to see us be as big as we can be while retaining, agility, mobility and quickness. 290-300 should normally be big enough (generally speaking) to accomplish that with the occasional player who can still retain all of those developed traits who exceeds 300 pounds.

[ballz2thewall]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

agreed. my preach for some time is to emulate jimmy johnson's miami lines.

as to the cutback, etc., agreed. my preach there, lately, has been to adapt to the zone-read scheme as part of our package.

even without a dual qb, you can still build these concepts successfully. to maximize it a dual threath qb is a must, but a lot can be done short of that.

[nchogg]

Not until we have blockers to clear the lanes.

[LRHawg]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

Good observation. Post more.

[Cure]

The running game will be fine once the offensive line gets the depth they so desperately needed. They are loaded on the RB depth chart.

[Pig Worshipper]

LukeHawg's response 2 is very close to the truth. Bielema's only hope, in my opinion, to succeed at Arkansas rested with his ability to redshirt almost all of the Big Uglies on both sides of the ball. That would have required incredible discipline, something I'm sad to say, Coach Bielema appears to lack. We need to put 21-22 year-old men up against great SEC defenses stacked with many four-stars. If we can't do that, we need to switch back to a Petrino or Briles-type of out-score-them-uptempo offense.

Coach B has two more years left before he's fired. I don't think he has time to redshirt his incoming linemen now and save his job but I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Piggfoot]

I believe it will take many years to develop a run first offense at Arkansas.  During Bielema's time here he recruited Kirkland, Tretola and Ragnow.  Excellent players but about 5 or 6 short. Skipper is decent but I don't think he will be a NFL starter. The word is still out on the others. I believe we will have more success with a pass first offense. Arkansas produces more of these players. Of  course we need a SEC QB every 2 or 3 years.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

I can totally buy this. 

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I believe it will take many years to develop a run first offense at Arkansas.  During Bielema's time here he recruited Kirkland, Tretola and Ragnow.  Excellent players but about 5 or 6 short. Skipper is decent but I don't think he will be a NFL starter. The word is still out on the others. I believe we will have more success with a pass first offense. Arkansas produces more of these players. Of  course we need a SEC QB every 2 or 3 years.

Yes, the OL recruiting has been mediocre. 

[The_Iceman]

I think we need to utilize the pistol formation. Will help the running game and Allen.

[12247]

After we get an offensive line, we need to get us one of those running games.  Might work.

[Elvis P Hogg]

My post wasn't directed towards you.

You bring up a good point.  I think we have to find a way to utilize speed more in our offense.  I hope Hammonds is given more carries next season.

Thanks no worries.. appreciate the insights

[bennyl08]

If you want to see the results of the lighter OL players in modern times, look no further than Oregon. They had a really powerful offense too.

However, know what their one kryptonite was? Teams with good DL's and depth on the DL. I.e. most SEC teams we would be facing?

Why is that a kryptonite? Well, let's examine how an OL player can win their battles. First, what battles are there to win? You have, in general, 3 things to try and do. Move the DL player directly. Control where the DL player can go by blocking things off with your body. Engage the DL player so that he is stuck to you. To do the first one, you have to be functionally stronger than the other player. There is no way around that. So, in the case of light and fast OL players, you simply will not be able to physically push the DL player backwards save for some of the cupcake teams.

That is where screens, misdirections, and pulling OL players come in handy. If you can't' push the DL backwards, then all you can do is change where they penetrate or try to engage them so that they can't make the tackle. You may not be strong enough to block them 1:1 but you can simply not block them altogether while you help your teammate double team somebody else with the rb getting the ball in a hurry to avoid the unblocked or at least poorly blocked guys coming in on the backside of the play.

Why is engaging important? If you are simply acting as a human shield, that's great and all, but as soon as the rb gets beside you, if you aren't engaged, the DL player can simply ignore you, turn, and tackle the rb. You need a combination of strength and technique to control their hands such that even when they don't care to get past you anymore, they can't simply turn and make the tackle. This can't be done on technique and technique alone. Say you have A technique but C strength and I have A strength but C technique. Together, we'll be about tied and win about as many battles as we lose. However, in the SEC, you aren't going to find many players with C techniques. They'll have B technique at worst. If technique could completely compensate for strength, you could have WR's on your OL and do just as fine.

This is where the hurry up comes into play. You get the defense tired enough that they can't exert as much strength as they could if rested. That's why in modern times, you don't see lighter OL's running slower offenses. You aren't going to wear the stronger player out with your physicality. You have to tire out their lungs. Hard to do that w/o a no-huddle. However, until you tire out the DL, unless they a cupcake game, you can't much success running b/w the tackles because that requires power which you've sacrificed for speed.

Again, harken back to the Oregon-Auburn national championship game. First half, Oregon was very competitive, because they completely neutralized Nick Fairly by virtually entirely ignoring the middle of the field. 2nd half, it seemed as if they forget he was there, tried a lot more stuff up the middle (in hindsight, I suppose they were hoping/used to having tired out the defense by then, forgetting the depth on the DL of an SEC team) and their offense stalled.

[bennyl08]

So, I guess it depends on how much you are talking about making the OL smaller. If you want to get into having guys in the 290-300 range, the above post of mine details what you need to do to have success. Basically avoid any b/w the tackles runs unless you have a lot of misdirection and you almost have to employ a no-huddle.

However, if your idea of a quicker OL just means players in the 300:315 range instead of 330+, then that is different and you don't have to neglect b/w the tackles running. Even Oregon, since that Auburn game, has beefed up their OL some, and started using more 210+ running backs instead of the sub 180lb backs they had been using.

[LZH]

I've said this many times before.... Look at the Denver Broncos Super Bowl winning seasons.  We need to recruit and develop sub-300 pound OL that have good feet.  Widen splits and adopt full reach zone concepts.  Full reach allows one cut running game and HUGE cutback gains when you get DL shoulder's turned. 

Our 3* OL on SEC 4&5* DL is not sound matchups for Power O, trap, or inside zone schemes.  We need to get SEC front 7s moving lateral to the LOS and take advantage of cutback opportunities.  Allowing SEC DLs to swallow our OL and SEC LBs to play down hill 'at' us is stalemate mentality.  Lateral movement becomes our friend with wide splits and OL with some agility.

Play action to the backside is deadly when LBs are trying to stop, shift their hips, and regain their intermediate zones.

We just need the will to retire the dump truck 'Mano y Mano' mentality and get with a scheme that better fits what we can attract and recruit at OL.  A flexed TE puts that force DE/OLB in conflict as well.

Going sideways is a huge risk....unless we have a few Percy Harvins that I'm not aware of.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Going sideways is a huge risk....unless we have a few Percy Harvins that I'm not aware of.

Going sideways is also a risk if the opposing D-Line/LB's gets unexpected penetration, which occurred more often than we would have liked last season. In those cases it doesn't matter if you have a Percy Harvin or not, so that better be something that gets fixed over the off season.

[The_Bionic_Pig]

How about give the most carries to the best back for starters. Whaley is a much more explosive back than rw3. He's a really good back, but whaley is NFL talent.

Whaley is indeed by far the most talented but Williams falls forward 2-3 yds after initial contact and is a excellent blocker as of today Whaley once fully engaged is brought down immediately and is still missing blocking assignments (as Williams did his Freshman year)

Again I agree their is a gap in potential & talent but until experience & toughness are a equal commodity then you continue to go with the most productive per down back instead of hoping that every 10-15 carries Dev breaks one.

Better to have 2nd and 6 on most occasions even with no running lanes than 2nd and 8 or 9.

Also keep in mind McFadden was considered the most talented of the Thunder & Lightening duo but he doesn't get nearly the yds witout Felix spelling him for 15-20 carries a game. 

Wouldn't you rather have that 2-headed monster? History dictates Whaley will make that Freshman to Sophomore leap (Madre Hill, Alex Collins, Jonathan Williams etc....

Chase Hayden is far more talented than TJ Hammond's but you do not burn his redshirt to make him the #3 back.

[onebadrubi]

In reply to my post:

Why does every idiot on Hogville say we are a ground and pound offense?  The stats prove the exact opposite.

The same reason many thought BP offense was a spread attack.

[tophawg19]

i disagree on Hayden being far more talented than Hammonds . TJ brings in many of the same skills Gary Anderson did . I would really like to see us pattern our offensive line after the old Pittsburg steelers . Although not built around the biggest, they were some of the best running teams in modern history and could pass well when they wanted to.

[The_Bionic_Pig]

i disagree on Hayden being far more talented than Hammonds . TJ brings in many of the same skills Gary Anderson did . I would really like to see us pattern our offensive line after the old Pittsburg steelers . Although not built around the biggest, they were some of the best running teams in modern history and could pass well when they wanted to.

That gets me excited that we disagree on who's the best which equates to we have (2) really good RB's behind Williams & Whaley.

By the way Hayden is a beast on the basketball court does it effect a possible Football redshirt if he's good enough to steal some minute's in Bud Walton??

[tophawg19]

i don't think CBB risks getting him hurt . T.J has a speed and quickness the others don't quite have . very explosive off the blocks . A bit more patience in setting up blocks will help but he can fly. He has the potential to be the most dangerous runner since Felix Jones