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Was the NCAA complicit when they had their investigation???

Started by Hognipotent, July 21, 2017, 11:49:18 am

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Hognipotent

How come it took a relatively short amount of time for Houston's lawyers to find these immoral infractions of Freeze? Yet the ncaa investigation didn't reveal this.
Did the ncaa have prior knowledge of this and chose to do nothing about it?

ErieHog

The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

 

Hognipotent

Quote from: The ColonelHog on July 21, 2017, 11:58:21 am
The NCAA does not legislate morality of a coach, they legislate rules violations.  Freeze using his university issued cell phone to call escorts is not an NCAA rules violation although I'm sure it's a University policy violation.
How could the investigator determine whom the escorts were for? It could just as easily have been for recruiting purposes, the fact that the investigation didn't reveal any of this just shows you how the NCAA feels about pay-for-play, they know that most schools do it and they give half-hearted investigations to keep the money from these schools rolling in.

Hognipotent

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.
One of the recruiting improprieties involved a coaches cell phone texting a prospective player about the exchanging of money, plus who says that they would've need a subpoena, the university would've voluntarily handed over the phone records of the coaches.

ricepig

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:04:54 pm
How could the investigator determine whom the escorts were for? It could just as easily have been for recruiting purposes, the fact that the investigation didn't reveal any of this just shows you how the NCAA feels about pay-for-play, they know that most schools do it and they give half-hearted investigations to keep the money from these schools rolling in.

The NCAA investigation and Nutt's lawsuit aren't the same thing, without subpoena power, they had no access to Freeze's phone records.

OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:04:54 pm
How could the investigator determine whom the escorts were for? It could just as easily have been for recruiting purposes, the fact that the investigation didn't reveal any of this just shows you how the NCAA feels about pay-for-play, they know that most schools do it and they give half-hearted investigations to keep the money from these schools rolling in.

This was my first reaction too...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

#1Fan

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.

I don't believe this information was obtained through lawsuit discovery.  It was a FOI request which the NCAA could have also done.

Hognipotent

Quote from: ricepig on July 21, 2017, 12:10:54 pm
The NCAA investigation and Nutt's lawsuit aren't the same thing, without subpoena power, they had no access to Freeze's phone records.
Thats not according to the NCAA MEMBER RESOURCE GUIDE " Identifying, preserving and gathering relevant documents is an important part of any successful investigation. Documents may come in either paper or electronic format. For instance, potentially relevant documents include, but are not limited to, computer records, bank statements, telephone records, correspondence, text messages, photographs, expense receipts, travel itineraries, academic transcripts, publicly available social media posts, vehicle registrations, etc. Some documents may already be in the institution's possession and readily available for review while others may require the institution to request them from a third party."

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

Houston Nutt did more damage to Ole Miss in 1 day than the NCAA was able to do in 2 years of investigations ;D
That's right, you don't want to be the man to replace the man.  You want to be the man to replace Rory Segrest.

Hognipotent

Quote from: #1Fan on July 21, 2017, 12:27:07 pm
I don't believe this information was obtained through lawsuit discovery.  It was a FOI request which the NCAA could have also done.
Plus the burden is upon the institution to pass along this documentation, if its its not voluntarily done the NCAA investigator can request such and its a violation if the institution fails to comply. My point is that its pretty feaking obvious if you're investigating wrong doing on a football team, obtaining and searching a head coaches phone records is kinda step 1.


OneTuskOverTheLine™

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:32:26 pm
Thats not according to the NCAA MEMBER RESOURCE GUIDE " Identifying, preserving and gathering relevant documents is an important part of any successful investigation. Documents may come in either paper or electronic format. For instance, potentially relevant documents include, but are not limited to, computer records, bank statements, telephone records, correspondence, text messages, photographs, expense receipts, travel itineraries, academic transcripts, publicly available social media posts, vehicle registrations, etc. Some documents may already be in the institution's possession and readily available for review while others may require the institution to request them from a third party."

I like your tenacity in blazing through the bull with provable facts...
Quote from: capehog on March 12, 2010...
My ex wife had a pet monkey I used to play with. That was one of the few things I liked about her

quote from: golf2day on June 19, 2014....
I'm disgusted, but kinda excited. Now I'm disgusted that I'm excited.

Hognipotent

Quote from: OneTuskOverTheLine™ on July 21, 2017, 12:35:15 pm
I like your tenacity in blazing through the bull with provable facts...
Google is a real b*tch ain't it!!! haha

ErieHog

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:32:26 pm
Thats not according to the NCAA MEMBER RESOURCE GUIDE " Identifying, preserving and gathering relevant documents is an important part of any successful investigation. Documents may come in either paper or electronic format. For instance, potentially relevant documents include, but are not limited to, computer records, bank statements, telephone records, correspondence, text messages, photographs, expense receipts, travel itineraries, academic transcripts, publicly available social media posts, vehicle registrations, etc. Some documents may already be in the institution's possession and readily available for review while others may require the institution to request them from a third party."

The problem is what that means, in practice-  the *school* gets to determine what is relevant. The NCAA does not.   That's the difference between the two powers-- one can compel the entire scope of all records, the NCAA cannot.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

 

onebadrubi

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.

Butts lawyers probably found this without subpoenas because it's so soon after lawsuit was filed.

kodiakisland

How do we know the NCAA and Ole Miss haven't known about this for awhile?  Not the NCAA's concern if it was for Freeze and in Ole Miss's best interest to keep hidden.  The lawsuit made it public knowledge.
If gun control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome. http://heyjackass.com/

ErieHog

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:07:26 pm
One of the recruiting improprieties involved a coaches cell phone texting a prospective player about the exchanging of money, plus who says that they would've need a subpoena, the university would've voluntarily handed over the phone records of the coaches.

They'd have handed over redacted phone records, not complete ones.  They'd screen, for example, any calls related to medical information,  trade practices, etc.-- and there's no second level to check the validity of what they chose to redact.

That's part of why NCAA investigations are such a PITA to prove-- the institutions get to sift the evidence they hand over for the removal of the worst of incriminating materials, before they get to NCAA hands, and then the reconstruction of the violation has to be almost backwards-engineered.  Its why they say the cover up is what gets most people-- the violations themselves are usually pretty carefully scrubbed from things like phone records.     The other thing that whacks people, is when they have to account for money spent--  someone, somewhere, wants something in black and white regarding resource allocation, and that creates a paper trail that has to be preserved.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Hognipotent

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:43:02 pm
The problem is what that means, in practice-  the *school* gets to determine what is relevant. The NCAA does not.   That's the difference between the two powers-- one can compel the entire scope of all records, the NCAA cannot.
Well if what you're saying is true then its a violation of the NCAA Division 1 manual Section 10.1 (a) "Refusal to furnish information relevant to an investigation of a possible violation of an NCAA regulation when requested to do so by the NCAA or the individual's institution"

Biggus Piggus

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 11:49:18 am
How come it took a relatively short amount of time for Houston's lawyers to find these immoral infractions of Freeze? Yet the ncaa investigation didn't reveal this.
Did the ncaa have prior knowledge of this and chose to do nothing about it?

If submitting to a regular, FOI-type request, Freeze could redact all his personal calls from phone records.

In a lawsuit, he can't.
[CENSORED]!

hogsanity

If I read it right, the reports say the school was conducting a deeper look at his phone records. That sounds like, in view of the lawsuit, they were trying to see if anything damning was there, and they stumbled across this number that they investigated and found it was linked to a FLA escort service.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

ErieHog

Quote from: Hognipotent on July 21, 2017, 12:56:48 pm
Well if what you're saying is true then its a violation of the NCAA Division 1 manual Section 10.1 (a) "Refusal to furnish information relevant to an investigation of a possible violation of an NCAA regulation when requested to do so by the NCAA or the individual's institution"

Sure it is;  unfortunately, the burden then shift to the NCAA to  'prove it'.   You'll see Ole Miss do everything it can to pay off HDN, to make it go away before the NCAA can get its claws in any information that's put into the public record, though.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

Hognipotent

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on July 21, 2017, 12:57:48 pm
If submitting to a regular, FOI-type request, Freeze could redact all his personal calls from phone records.

In a lawsuit, he can't.
Any way you cut this at some point someone came across this little bit of info and chose to withhold it, either the institution or the ncaa.

rljjr

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on July 21, 2017, 12:57:48 pm
If submitting to a regular, FOI-type request, Freeze could redact all his personal calls from phone records.

In a lawsuit, he can't.

This is why my jaw hits the floor weepy time I hear the OM sycophants circling the wagons and saying THEY found it and took action. They knew it would come out eventually. Also, I heard some media lapdog saying this morning that they knew of smoke surrounding Hugh as far back as December because, as you know, Oxford is a small place and people talk. Well, if they knew -- or at least suspected -- they had an obligation to do their due diligence then. But winning makes a lot of people deaf, blind and dumb.

Hogs-n-Roses

Quote from: hogsanity on July 21, 2017, 12:59:10 pm
If I read it right, the reports say the school was conducting a deeper look at his phone records. That sounds like, in view of the lawsuit, they were trying to see if anything damning was there, and they stumbled across this number that they investigated and found it was linked to a FLA escort service.
For what its worth. The talk on Nafoom reflects that the School n all the PTB and many in the loop boosters knew last summer about all this so someone had either done said legwork or been informed by NCAA or SEC of the issues.

KlubhouseKonnected

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.

I am not aware of anything that prevents the NCAA from using FOI to get the phone records the same way Nutt's legal counsel did.
If Auburn is dirty so is Gus. You can't have it both ways. Deal with it.

 

KlubhouseKonnected

Quote from: ricepig on July 21, 2017, 12:10:54 pm
The NCAA investigation and Nutt's lawsuit aren't the same thing, without subpoena power, they had no access to Freeze's phone records.

See above. Nutt did not get them via subpoena
If Auburn is dirty so is Gus. You can't have it both ways. Deal with it.

KlubhouseKonnected

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on July 21, 2017, 12:57:48 pm
If submitting to a regular, FOI-type request, Freeze could redact all his personal calls from phone records.

In a lawsuit, he can't.

Well, if Mississippi's FOIA is anything like Arkansas's he cannot redact all personal calls simply because they were personal. They have to fit within specific exemptions and when you redact you would also be required to state which exemption you are claiming that it falls under.

That being said, state entities and employees claim exemptions for things that are not truly covered by the exemption claimed with shocking frequency.
If Auburn is dirty so is Gus. You can't have it both ways. Deal with it.

hobhog

Quote from: kodiakisland on July 21, 2017, 12:43:48 pm
How do we know the NCAA and Ole Miss haven't known about this for awhile?  Not the NCAA's concern if it was for Freeze and in Ole Miss's best interest to keep hidden.  The lawsuit made it public knowledge.

I had a golfing buddy tell me this scandal was coming last weekend (I didn't believe him). He had heard it from a OM booster on business trip to Atlanta the week before. Not sure what took so long for administrators to pull the trigger and let this go public before they canned him. Maybe just getting legal opinions/ducks in a row?

Boarmonger

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 12:03:57 pm
The NCAA also lacks subpoena power.  It can't compel all the evidence from member institutions, who largely get to determine that which is and that which is outside the scope of an investigations' remit.

There is little reason to expect they had access to anything near as broad, in terms of information, as the Nutt lawsuit.

Why couldn't this information be obtained by the FOI?  There is no reason the NCAA can't use that to obtain phone records.

Boarmonger

Quote from: hobhog on July 21, 2017, 02:40:25 pm
I had a golfing buddy tell me this scandal was coming last weekend (I didn't believe him). He had heard it from a OM booster on business trip to Atlanta the week before. Not sure what took so long for administrators to pull the trigger and let this go public before they canned him. Maybe just getting legal opinions/ducks in a row?

Odd that the AD backed him so strongly just a few days ago.

kodiakisland

Quote from: Boarmonger on July 21, 2017, 02:59:42 pm
Odd that the AD backed him so strongly just a few days ago.

What else could he do?  Seriously.  There've been rumors since last year about Freeze's cheating ways.  You think his AD hadn't heard them or even knew about them?  At some point you're all in until things become public.  I think Ole Miss had backed themselves into a corner having to support Freeze until the NCAA investigation was over.  Once the lawsuit threatened to make things public, Ole Miss had to appear proactive in their handling of this.  I doubt the AD learned anything new in the last few weeks.
If gun control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome. http://heyjackass.com/

ErieHog

Quote from: KlubhouseKonnected on July 21, 2017, 02:12:09 pm
I am not aware of anything that prevents the NCAA from using FOI to get the phone records the same way Nutt's legal counsel did.

Can they?  Sure.  They have a legal capacity to;  would they ever want to?  Not really-- not only does it not guarantee a result that they are seeking, it completely creates a hostile relationship between the NCAA and its member institutions.   That's where 'compliance' is supposed to come into the process.  If the NCAA has to assume an adversarial disposition to its member institutions, it has already failed and will end up with all of its disciplinary actions in court.    The NCAA does not want their deliberations inside a courtroom, at all, so it sticks to the extremely light-handed compliance 'requirements' of member institutions.   Everyone plays ball in the established framework for allegation resolution.

The NCAA won't go head hunting, and the institutions won't take them to court over the process.
No cause, ever, in the history of all mankind, has produced more cold-blooded tyrants, more slaughtered innocents, and more orphans than socialism with power. It surpassed, exponentially, all other systems of production in turning out the dead. The bodies are all around us. And here is the problem: No one talks about them. No one honors them. No one does penance for them. No one has committed suicide for having been an apologist for those who did this to them. No one pays for them. No one is hunted down to account for them. It is exactly what Solzhenitsyn foresaw in The Gulag Archipelago: "No, no one would have to answer. No one would be looked into." Until that happens, there is no "after socialism."

PorkSoda

Quote from: ErieHog on July 21, 2017, 05:40:19 pm
Can they?  Sure.  They have a legal capacity to;  would they ever want to?  Not really-- not only does it not guarantee a result that they are seeking, it completely creates a hostile relationship between the NCAA and its member institutions.   That's where 'compliance' is supposed to come into the process.  If the NCAA has to assume an adversarial disposition to its member institutions, it has already failed and will end up with all of its disciplinary actions in court.    The NCAA does not want their deliberations inside a courtroom, at all, so it sticks to the extremely light-handed compliance 'requirements' of member institutions.   Everyone plays ball in the established framework for allegation resolution.

The NCAA won't go head hunting, and the institutions won't take them to court over the process.
and the "NCAA" is technically made up of the "institutions"
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Quote from: PonderinHog on August 07, 2023, 06:37:15 pmYeah, we're all here, but we ain't all there.

Pig in the Pokey

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on July 21, 2017, 12:34:24 pm
Houston Nutt did more damage to Ole Miss in 1 day than the NCAA was able to do in 2 years of investigations ;D
he is truly teh trojan horse
You must be on one if you think i aint on one! ¥420¥   «roastin da bomb in fayettenam» Purspirit Gang

Boarmonger

Quote from: kodiakisland on July 21, 2017, 03:45:20 pm
What else could he do?  Seriously.  There've been rumors since last year about Freeze's cheating ways.  You think his AD hadn't heard them or even knew about them?  At some point you're all in until things become public.  I think Ole Miss had backed themselves into a corner having to support Freeze until the NCAA investigation was over.  Once the lawsuit threatened to make things public, Ole Miss had to appear proactive in their handling of this.  I doubt the AD learned anything new in the last few weeks.

I'm not sure I agree with this and this is just an opinion thing.  If they did indeed know about this a year ago, along with the NCAA investigation you'd think they'd call it out after their own investigation.  If it was moral turpitude yesterday, it was last year public or not.  I just don't get the rational of only worrying about it when it becomes public.

kodiakisland

Quote from: Boarmonger on July 21, 2017, 06:48:18 pm
I'm not sure I agree with this and this is just an opinion thing.  If they did indeed know about this a year ago, along with the NCAA investigation you'd think they'd call it out after their own investigation.  If it was moral turpitude yesterday, it was last year public or not.  I just don't get the rational of only worrying about it when it becomes public.

Not everyone is Jeff Long.  My guess is they tried to cover up while they could to lessen sanctions in hope of some things not coming out.  Problem is once you've told one lie, you have tell another and another before you have no choice but continue on the path you are on.  Expect more to come of this and a revised time table of when who knew what.
If gun control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome. http://heyjackass.com/

Exit Pursued by a Boar

Quote from: The ColonelHog on July 21, 2017, 11:58:21 am
The NCAA does not legislate morality of a coach, they legislate rules violations.  Freeze using his university issued cell phone to call escorts is not an NCAA rules violation although I'm sure it's a University policy violation.

This