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Let's be honest, now...

Started by Oklahawg, March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm

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Salvaboar Dali

Quote from: dubyacee on March 18, 2006, 04:10:30 pm
Quote from: mikeirwin on March 18, 2006, 02:23:51 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 18, 2006, 10:23:51 am
But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.

Lucky ? What have you been smoking ?
Eddie Sutton took the job BECAUSE  he knew the school's history of success under Glen Rose and he knew about Arkansas fan base. I know this because I've talked to him about it. Luck had nothing to do with it.
Do you think Nolan just flipped a coin and decided to leave Tulsa for Arkansas? Again luck wasn't part of the equation.
By the way that UTEP statement is just plain ignorant.

While we are at it, I want to take out the following records by coaches at their respective schools and see where they are at.

Rupp-KY
Wooden-UCLA
Coach K-Duke
Smith-UNC
John Thompson-Georgetown
Izzo-Mich. St.
Knight-Indiana

While we are removing coaches and their records to make their school or team look worse let's try these:

Phil Jackson-Bulls
Spurrier-Florida
Bowden-Florida St
Aurbach-Celtics
Stoops-Oklahoma
Carrol-USC
Johnson-Cowboys
  the list goes on and on.  That was one of the truly dumbest statements ever on this message board.  If you take the best coaches away from their team and remove their records, we would all be "just another UTEP".

Almost every one of these coaches had important predecessors. Bad list.

Oklahawg

Hawgdawgrain, I'm not here to "dawg" on ya. Really. Its just that D3 experience was tossed out there as something that qualifies you to "know" things that others wouldn't. That might be true, but it might not. There are a lot of savvy posters with a wealth of insight that defies their lived experience.

Your comment on FT shooting the last 5 years doesn't really support your position. If anything, it refutes it. See, Heath's 4 teams shot on either side of Nolan's last team, numberwise. As I pointed out, its MUCH easier to rebuild a basketball team than a football team. The problems should be far in the rear-view mirror. They are not.

When comparing Heath to Nutt let's remember some things.

1. Football has 3 NC games. Basketball has a dozen, or so.
2. There are 117 D1 football schools but 300 D1 hoops schools (or thereabouts).
3. The SEC is the top football conference most years. It is not in basketball.
4. The two worst teams in the SEC in football were the two Miss schools. Same for basketball, except that (a) we lost to both of those in basketball and (b) we had the chance to pad the stats by playing them twice.

Heath and Nutt should probably thank one another. Their relative incompetence may well be what has kept the other employed at UA. How? Their relative failures are similar; firing one would logically lead to firing the other. Yet, JFB is still smart enough to NOT fire both in the same year (really bad fiscal policy).
I am a Hog fan. I was long before my name was etched, twice, on the sidewalks on the Hill. I will be long after Sam Pittman and Eric Mussleman are coaches, and Hunter Yuracheck is AD. I am a Hog fan when we win, when we lose and when we don't play. I love hearing the UA band play the National Anthem on game day, but I sing along to the Alma Mater. I am a Hog fan.<br /><br />A liberal education is at the heart of a civil society, and at the heart of a liberal education is the act of teaching. - Bart Giamatti <br /><br />"It is a puzzling thing. The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." ― Robert M. Pirsig<br /><br />Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too.  – Yogi Berra

 

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 05:25:38 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 04:54:01 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 04:07:00 pm
If you really believe there is that much difference in the #20 player and the #50 player in the nation, it shows how little you know about the game of basketball.  Was Scotty Thurman a top 50, don't think so; how about Corey Beck or Dwight Stewart, no and no; maybe Clint McDaniel or Roger Crawford, I don't think so.  When you are talking about top 100 players, the difference is often the coach they end up playing for.  If you watched Bryant Reeves in HS you would understand.  That guy was about as worthless as tits on a boar hog.  He never crossed the mid-court line, and simply dominated because he was playing against a bunch of guys smaller than me.  Eddie Sutton (see good coach) took the guy and turned him into a college super-star, and eventual NBA star.  Coaching makes all the difference in the world.

I am not discounting the efforts of the steals of a recruiting year.   Of course Thurman and D. Stewart were important pieces of the puzzle but I would argue that we don't win the national championship without Corliss.  Top players in basketball are different that top players in football.  You can't put 1 or 2 bluechips on the team in football and expect to win right away whereas you have a better chance to in basketball.

By bringing in the argument of Beck, Stewart, Crawford, etc, you're proving my point for me.  The supporting cast of the McD's AA of Kansas is/was better than Arkansas's the past 2 years.    You have McD's AA/5 star recruits riding the bench for Kansas and at Arkansas, you don't have that luxary.
You should really go back and look at the original point of the posts that started all of this.  I wasn't trying to argue who has the better players, but I don't think there is THAT much of a difference.  However, I was saying that getting those players is what sets Self and Williams apart.  My point was that they didn't have to wait 5 years to replace the talent they lost.  They went out and recruited the best players out there.  Part of being a top tier coach is being a top tier recruiter, and Stan Heath is neither in my opinion.  That is why I keep saying you are making my point.  Kansas and North Carolina were both supposed to be decimated this year, and their coaches went out and got the job done (without taking 5 years), ours hasn't.

Yes, but Heath is a relatively "new" head coach in comparison to Bill Self.  Look how far Bruce Weber took Self's players once he left.  The fact is, Kansas has always had a winning program.  It's easier to recruit to Kansas that it is to recruit to Arkansas.  We may remember the "glory years" of the mid 90s but to a high school kid, they were 2-3 years old when that happened.  Arkansas has been off the map a long ass time.  But Kansas has made tourney appearance after tourney appearance year after year.  You can't compare the situations that Heath stepped into and the one Self stepped into when he came to Kansas.

If you're a top tier prospect, you're not going to come to Arkansas' in Heath's first few years because they had no chance of winning with the players that were left here after Nolan got fired.  But now that Arkansas is back in the tourney, maybe that trend changes.  My point is, you can't judge Stan Heath and compare his youth movement with Bill Self or Roy Williams because they had winning programs with McDonalds Americans waiting on them when they took the job.  Stan Heath didn't have that luxary.

Chinese Emperor

Bottomline:  Stan's here for another, probably two even if he stinks the place up.  So we better hope he recruits his ass off because he is never gonna' be confused with Eddie or Coach K, John Wooden or any of the other coaches who know their X's and O's.  The upside to that:  there's been plenty of coaches through the history of the NCAA who won a ton of games without being a good game coach.  Guy B. Lewis, Tark the Shark, Billy Tubbs, maybe even our own Nolan Richardson who got by by just overmatching the opposition with better talent.  On the other hand, even with better talent, I believe there is a level which can never be reached.  Sooner or later you'll run into a team with similar talent with a coach who can do his X and O's.  So this usually translates into rather quick exits in the big dance even with rather gaudy records. 

jabohog

Come on guys, Bucknell had what, two, three on scholarship? It's not the talent, it's the system. You recruit, and coach your talent to a system. Can anyone really say that Bucknell had better talent than us? If you have superior talent and a superior system, you win it all. Somewhere in between is where the great teams fall. Heath has a team full of talent, but also a team full of egos that can't seem to play as a team to Heath's system. If we keep Heath long enough or if he stays long enough, he will eventually learn the ropes and have a competitive team. He has made progress and I think will be here until he regresses for a couple of seasons. JMO

hogman64

Bucknell was one of the weakest teams inside the hogs have ever played, there is a good chance they are the weakest team inside we have ever played in the Ncaat, we should have exploited that to the max, instead our coach is worried about our outside shooters legs..........

Hawgdawgrain

Quote from: Oklahawg on March 18, 2006, 09:25:16 pm
Hawgdawgrain, I'm not here to "dawg" on ya. Really. Its just that D3 experience was tossed out there as something that qualifies you to "know" things that others wouldn't. That might be true, but it might not. There are a lot of savvy posters with a wealth of insight that defies their lived experience.

Your comment on FT shooting the last 5 years doesn't really support your position. If anything, it refutes it. See, Heath's 4 teams shot on either side of Nolan's last team, numberwise. As I pointed out, its MUCH easier to rebuild a basketball team than a football team. The problems should be far in the rear-view mirror. They are not.

When comparing Heath to Nutt let's remember some things.

1. Football has 3 NC games. Basketball has a dozen, or so.
2. There are 117 D1 football schools but 300 D1 hoops schools (or thereabouts).
3. The SEC is the top football conference most years. It is not in basketball.
4. The two worst teams in the SEC in football were the two Miss schools. Same for basketball, except that (a) we lost to both of those in basketball and (b) we had the chance to pad the stats by playing them twice.

Heath and Nutt should probably thank one another. Their relative incompetence may well be what has kept the other employed at UA. How? Their relative failures are similar; firing one would logically lead to firing the other. Yet, JFB is still smart enough to NOT fire both in the same year (really bad fiscal policy).

I should have brought up more than the DIII stuff...

Actually, from the time I hit 7th grade I played for 6 different coaches through my Junior year of college...

EVERY single one of those coaches set aside a time in practice where we shot free throws...fundamentals were taught...making so many FT's were rewarded with less running at the end of practice...etc.

Your original quote..."Good coaches preach "little" things like free throw shooting"...is what got me, and the reason I bring up my experience (not to showboat) of playing is because some who never played (especially college ball) may not realize the time spent each and every practice on free throw shooting. I did it this past season with my team...every practice.

Now...listen closely...Am I to believe that Stan Heath, a man who has been involved with DI coaching for years, doesn't preach free throw shooting when every coach I've been involved with since 7th grade does??? C'mon my man...you know he does which invalidates your initial statement...

Also, the facts I gave you about FT shooting strongly supported my belief that Stan Heath spends time "preaching the little things"...Here are the stats again from his first year on...60.9...67.9...66.3...69.2...please tell me that those stats at least indicate a modest level of teaching on Stan's part.

This may be one of those moments where we have to agree to disagree...because I'm not budgin'...

Peace

Oklahawg

My own playing experience on the back burner...its not the TIME spent shooting FTs. Its the mentality and emphasis it receives. If as a coach I say, "okay, go shoot free throws" its a lot different than lighting a fire under them, putting the fear of god into them, etc. An ex-college coach (private NAIA) I know personally said that he told players no dunking and no 3-point practice in the gym until they hit 70 percent. In games, not just practice. Made a point--a buddy holds the school record at 94 percent.

The stats are all nifty but they don't tell the real story--we lost several games this year because of miserable FT shooting. A DECENT coach takes responsibility for that. A GOOD coach takes responsibility AND fixes it by tourney time.

We can agree to disagree, if you choose!!!
I am a Hog fan. I was long before my name was etched, twice, on the sidewalks on the Hill. I will be long after Sam Pittman and Eric Mussleman are coaches, and Hunter Yuracheck is AD. I am a Hog fan when we win, when we lose and when we don't play. I love hearing the UA band play the National Anthem on game day, but I sing along to the Alma Mater. I am a Hog fan.<br /><br />A liberal education is at the heart of a civil society, and at the heart of a liberal education is the act of teaching. - Bart Giamatti <br /><br />"It is a puzzling thing. The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." ― Robert M. Pirsig<br /><br />Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too.  – Yogi Berra

FLKeysGuy

20 finger-tip push-ups for every free-throw missed out of ten seems to be an effective tool...  I went from 70% to 90% between 8th and 9th grade.  Who was responsible for the improvement?  My coach!  It came down to which I would rather practice -- free throws or push ups.

Hawgdawgrain

Quote from: Oklahawg on March 19, 2006, 12:32:33 am
My own playing experience on the back burner...its not the TIME spent shooting FTs. Its the mentality and emphasis it receives. If as a coach I say, "okay, go shoot free throws" its a lot different than lighting a fire under them, putting the fear of god into them, etc. An ex-college coach (private NAIA) I know personally said that he told players no dunking and no 3-point practice in the gym until they hit 70 percent. In games, not just practice. Made a point--a buddy holds the school record at 94 percent.

The stats are all nifty but they don't tell the real story--we lost several games this year because of miserable FT shooting. A DECENT coach takes responsibility for that. A GOOD coach takes responsibility AND fixes it by tourney time.

We can agree to disagree, if you choose!!!

This is what I'm talking about...

"...its not the TIME spent shooting FTs. Its the mentality and emphasis it receives."

Let's take this one question at a time:

1) Have you seen EVERY Razorback basketball practice over the last 4 years to determine the "mentality and emphasis" free throw shooting has been given?

How can you suggest that Stan hasn't preached FT shooting with a certain "mentality" or "emphasis"?

At least I have "nifty" stats to support my view that he has...i.e. increased FT percentage.