Possible Repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell.. thoughts?

[AR_dustoff]

The housing and LOG issues will be the problems...

I am a CO currently deployed, and I've already had some of my soldiers ask me if its repealed and 2 guys or girls that are gay get to live, can they live with their bf/gf?  If not they feel its discrimination....i tend to agree...

Idk what to think about it...i'm sure the SECDEF will soon tell me

[cubsfan5150]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/21/procedural-vote-stalls-defense-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell/

[Cartoon Man]

Totally against gays in military.  It is time that this country starts to TRY to find its morality.

[cosmodrum]

Totally against gays in military.  It is time that this country starts to TRY to find its morality.

It's time that this country stops legislating morality. If homosexuality is legal, then a homosexual should be afforded EVERY right and privelege enjoyed by heterosexuals.

And no, homosexuality shouldn't be illegal.

[T-man]

Homosexuality is already allowed. 

What's ridiculous is kicking someone out of the military for such.

Yes and no, its technically not against the regs for a service member to be gay, but for a service member to take part in any homosexual activities. It is very difficult for the army to prosecute some one for being gay, since the don't ask don't tell policy protects everyone. I could be disciplined for even asking someone if they were gay. Come to think of it the only cases I personally know of a gay being kicked out of the military for being gay is when they have tried to make a push to over turn the don't ask don't tell policy making a public display of their sexuality in the process.

[countryhog]

It's time that this country stops legislating morality.

this was a pretty level discussion til this was thrown in.  this is not a supportable argument.  yep. let's quit legislating morality (sarcasm). you know, like murder, rape, arson, larceny. all the things people wouldn't do (NOT) if there were no laws or consequences. by the way, you do realize there are few, if any, laws against homosexuality don't you? 

as an aside. if you've (communal you) never served you can't possibly know how it is to be crammed in to small spaces with 40-50 other men.  your opinion then as to how it should be really has no bearing. when you try to tell others how it should be you are no better than the group now telling us how the government should be run; without the benefit of having actually run large organization(s).

keep it honest. just sayin.

[countryhog]

x

[T-man]

this was a pretty level discussion til this was thrown in.  this is not a supportable argument.  yep. let's quit legislating morality (sarcasm). you know, like murder, rape, arson, larceny. all the things people wouldn't do (NOT) if there were no laws or consequences. by the way, you do realize there are few, if any, laws against homosexuality don't you? 

as an aside. if you've (communal you) never served you can't possibly know how it is to be crammed in to small spaces with 40-50 other men.  your opinion then as to how it should be really has no bearing. when you try to tell others how it should be you are no better than the group now telling us how the government should be run; without the benefit of having actually run large organization(s).

keep it honest. just sayin.

Couldn't agree with you more.

[Old Tusk]

The arguement against Gays is the same arguement used against black, Jews and women. In a couple of months after repeal it won't be an issue.

[kingofdequeen]

1st Battalion Transvestite Brigade , in fabulous makeup......"they've got guns, they've got guns!"  "I was surprised, were you surprised?"  lmao


PP

Airborne Wing.

[UKhog1]

Update looks like it will move to the courts now.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/09/senate-blocks-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell/

[usnavyhogfan]

ive been active duty navy since i came in in 2000 and heres my views: ive worked with many people who i either pretty much knew were gay or admitted it. most all of them were good hard working honest people by all accounts and good sailors and soldiers. i was all against them coming in when i first came in the military but eventually i came to realize that if they want to serve they should be given the chance. however, just like straight people, sexuality has no place in the workplace in todays professional military. so gays would be no different. keep it away from work, and if  you dont you would face the same penalties as if straight people were caught messing around at work. so basically, just do the damn job same as everyone else and what you do in your off time is your business and thats where it should stay.

[kingofdequeen]

ive been active duty navy since i came in in 2000 and heres my views: ive worked with many people who i either pretty much knew were gay or admitted it. most all of them were good hard working honest people by all accounts and good sailors and soldiers. i was all against them coming in when i first came in the military but eventually i came to realize that if they want to serve they should be given the chance. however, just like straight people, sexuality has no place in the workplace in todays professional military. so gays would be no different. keep it away from work, and if  you dont you would face the same penalties as if straight people were caught messing around at work. so basically, just do the damn job same as everyone else and what you do in your off time is your business and thats where it should stay.

this is consistent w/ those servicepeople surveyed RE dadt.   

the younger, more inexperienced were heavily against repeal, while the more seasoned and senior were just the opposite.

[1CavHog]

Totally against gays in military.  It is time that this country starts to TRY to find its morality.

What is the divorce rate among evangelicals?

[Johnny America]

I am completely for the repeal. I am glad that the Senate passed the vote today. If the military can not push religious views on soldiers then I can not see how someone can allow them to push religious morals on its members.

[Ben Steiger]

The arguement against Gays is the same arguement used against black, Jews and women. In a couple of months after repeal it won't be an issue.

Sexual attraction is an entirely different matter than bias because of race or ethnicity.

I concur with the view of the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Jim Amos.

[Johnny America]

Sexual attraction is an entirely different matter than bias because of race or ethnicity.

I concur with the view of the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Jim Amos.

Then you are saying that men and women should not serve together?

[Ben Steiger]

It certainly adds a much different dynamic to the military, I can tell you that much.

The policy on men and women currently works fairly well, especially if highly segregated and women are forbidden to serve in combat units. However, look at some statistics - there are a significantly higher number of discharges for pregnancies/motherhood than for homosexuals.

this is consistent w/ those servicepeople surveyed RE dadt.   

the younger, more inexperienced were heavily against repeal, while the more seasoned and senior were just the opposite.

I disagree. The Commandant and several other senior Marines have come out against the policy. I know combat veterans with 20+ who intensely disagree with the decisions. It's fine and dandy for a Navy admiral to say it's ok, but the Army and the Marines have an entirely different job.

[Johnny America]

I was in an Army combat arms job. I was an Abrams tank crew member. We had a few guys in our unit that were gay. They went to Iraq with me both times and we never had an issue with it. Is my case the end all be all of how military life is? No. It can work though, once people realize that their beliefs are not for everyone then the military can move forward.

[Ben Steiger]

It is an issue that everyone will have to, as you said, work together and move forward on now that it is law. All is left to do now is say 'aye aye sir' and do our best to adapt and overcome.

[Ftsmithmike]

It is an issue that everyone will have to, as you said, work together and move forward on now that it is law. All is left to do now is say 'aye aye sir' and do our best to adapt and overcome.

I dont think thats gonna happen. Im already hearing the grumblings. People are pissed. Recruiters are being told if it hurts mission it will be fixed immediately. Drills Sgts are gonna have the hardest time because recruits are not yet aclimated to military discipline. And remeber that now saying your gay may get you a promotion over another soldier because we have to meet those quotas at the higher ranks. And if you get passed up be sure to file an EEO complaint bc it was probably because you were gay. And dont forget when you get your ass kicked in the barracks for being a smart ass to blame it on being gay and get a soldier charged with a hate crime.

This is pandoras box. Should have just left well enough alone.

[grayhawg]

This argument is ridiculous... for some reason all straight guys think that all gay guys want them...

Do you want every woman you see? I sure as HELL dont! Why would it be diff for a homosexual?

I wonder if all those women you don't want, would feel comfortable with you in the same shower, or sleeping in the same barracks with them?

[Ben Steiger]

And if you get passed up be sure to file an EEO complaint bc it was probably because you were gay. And dont forget when you get your ass kicked in the barracks for being a smart ass to blame it on being gay and get a soldier charged with a hate crime.

This is pandoras box. Should have just left well enough alone.

Promotion issues already happen with women. It's super easy for a unit who wants to look good to command to promote a woman, or send her up for a meritorious board.

It is pandoras box. Congress doesnt care about military efficency or effectivness: just their agenda.

[Johnny America]

Congress doesnt care about military efficency or effectivness: just their agenda.

And about doing what is right. 

[Ben Steiger]

Maybe.

[kingofdequeen]

I wonder if all those women you don't want, would feel comfortable with you in the same shower, or sleeping in the same barracks with them?

you think this is a new argument?  refer back to when the military was integrated.

[grayhawg]

you think this is a new argument?  refer back to when the military was integrated.

I was in the navy in the 50's, there is a BIG difference.

[hog_fan]

How come Women are protected from possible unwanted sexual advances by men therefore no showering or sleeping in the same quarters with them, but straight men don't have this same right. They will be sexually attracted to straight men that aren't interested.

[Veritas Arkansas]

They will be sexually attracted to straight men that aren't interested.

And you know this for a fact?

Are you attracted to every single woman you see?

[kingofdequeen]

I was in the navy in the 50's, there is a BIG difference.

yeah.  klansmen wore their hoods in public back then.

[Ben Steiger]

That's a totally irrelevant attempt at a point you just made there.

[Ftsmithmike]

And you know this for a fact?

Are you attracted to every single woman you see?

If showering with young healthy women doesnt turn you on the DADT was probably created just for you. Yes I attracted to every hot naked chic I shower with.

[hawg23]

Been a long time it seems since I started this thread...

My final thoughts (because its DADT is a thing of the past) .. I am glad it has been repealed. It spoke to the Ethics of our government. They told private business they could not discriminate and yet they did it themselves.

[Old Tusk]

The US Military is the most diverse organization in the world. Race, gender, religion, regional differences just to name a few. In order to have an effective force requires tolerance on every members part. During Viet Nam the Army  had a leadership failure and allowed many units to fracture along racial lines. It was a lesson that has not been lost. Of course at the time USAF Operations were pretty much lilly white. Women didn't become aircrew members until the 80s. Blacks didn't really show up in pilot training until the 90s. As we moved through the changes, the services were aware of the dangers of allowing an environment to exist that promoted division. That is why zero tolerance was the approach was taken on must issues. Did that mean racism was eliminated? Of course not. But it has forced racist into hiding. Have the chauvinist gone? No. But if they can leave their feelings at home, they will be dealt with. The same will be true of any inappropriate conduct stemming from the repeal of DADT.

We have spent years telling the troops to judge by a person by performance. Yet, we had this obvious contradiction.

I have absolute confidence that the military we will move forward because we have done this before.

[Johnny America]

hawg23, Old Tusk, +1 to you guys!

[Ftsmithmike]

The US Military is the most diverse organization in the world. Race, gender, religion, regional differences just to name a few. In order to have an effective force requires tolerance on every members part. During Viet Nam the Army  had a leadership failure and allowed many units to fracture along racial lines. It was a lesson that has not been lost. Of course at the time USAF Operations were pretty much lilly white. Women didn't become aircrew members until the 80s. Blacks didn't really show up in pilot training until the 90s. As we moved through the changes, the services were aware of the dangers of allowing an environment to exist that promoted division. That is why zero tolerance was the approach was taken on must issues. Did that mean racism was eliminated? Of course not. But it has forced racist into hiding. Have the chauvinist gone? No. But if they can leave their feelings at home, they will be dealt with. The same will be true of any inappropriate conduct stemming from the repeal of DADT.

We have spent years telling the troops to judge by a person by performance. Yet, we had this obvious contradiction.

I have absolute confidence that the military we will move forward because we have done this before.

Well then the Air Force is hand tailored for the Gay Pride movement. The Army and Marines are not.

[Flying Razorback]

The US Military is the most diverse organization in the world. Race, gender, religion, regional differences just to name a few. In order to have an effective force requires tolerance on every members part. During Viet Nam the Army  had a leadership failure and allowed many units to fracture along racial lines. It was a lesson that has not been lost. Of course at the time USAF Operations were pretty much lilly white. Women didn't become aircrew members until the 80s. Blacks didn't really show up in pilot training until the 90s. As we moved through the changes, the services were aware of the dangers of allowing an environment to exist that promoted division. That is why zero tolerance was the approach was taken on must issues. Did that mean racism was eliminated? Of course not. But it has forced racist into hiding. Have the chauvinist gone? No. But if they can leave their feelings at home, they will be dealt with. The same will be true of any inappropriate conduct stemming from the repeal of DADT.

We have spent years telling the troops to judge by a person by performance. Yet, we had this obvious contradiction.

I have absolute confidence that the military we will move forward because we have done this before.

Absolutely, this was pretty much the gist of the email sent out Air Force wide on Monday morning.  I have known of gay members in the military in the past and all performed their job just fine from engineers, to aircrew, and even nuclear missile operators with their fingers over the button.

Believe me, the ones who are out running the mission right now don't care what religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation the person taking their place in the field is because we're over stretched and under manned.  Everyone actually fighting the war wants a mission ready and capable pilot, crew chief, squad leader, MP, wrench turner, truck driver, etc... to do the mission and ease the strain.

The biggest opposition to the repeal are people who don't have any dog in the fight and sit at home not serving in the military typing on their keyboards on message boards about the way "people in the military feel".

[cubsfan5150]

I've grown to the point where I could really care less.  It just annoys the hell out of me whenever you've got civi's (not those affiliated with the government) putting in their 2 cents on this issue. 

[bugo]

I've grown to the point where I could really care less.  It just annoys the hell out of me whenever you've got civi's (not those affiliated with the government) putting in their 2 cents on this issue. 

Civilians aren't allowed to have opinions?

[cubsfan5150]

Civilians aren't allowed to have opinions?

Not in how the military should be ran when it comes to something like this, our pay, our housing, and probably several other things that I just can't think of at the moment.  It's really none of their business and we aren't sitting around telling you guys how you should run your businesses either.

[kingofdequeen]

Not in how the military should be ran when it comes to something like this, our pay, our housing, and probably several other things that I just can't think of at the moment.  It's really none of their business and we aren't sitting around telling you guys how you should run your businesses either.

military isn't taxed to run 'civi's' businesses.

[cubsfan5150]

military isn't taxed to run 'civi's' businesses.

I'm pretty sure the taxes I pay go into a lot more than the defense spending bill.  I'm not going to hospitals, schools, etc and telling them how to run there respective institutions. 

If you are that worried about what's going on with us... join us.

[kingofdequeen]

I'm pretty sure the taxes I pay go into a lot more than the defense spending bill.  I'm not going to hospitals, schools, etc and telling them how to run there respective institutions. 

in a way, you are doing just that by the way you vote.

[cubsfan5150]

in a way, you are doing just that by the way you vote.

Well beyond that I say nothing further... civi's should do the same about this.  They've spoken already with the way they vote.

[kingofdequeen]

Well beyond that I say nothing further... civi's should do the same about this.  They've spoken already with the way they vote.

then what's your issue?

[cubsfan5150]

then what's your issue?

Are you that dense?  I'm talking about the civi's doing picket lines for gay military rights.  I'm talking about that idiot Lada gaga stating her 2 cents.  Vote the way you want to vote, but beyond that, you need to say nothing more about the happenings of the military as long as we are staying with the laws put upon us.

DADT is a situation that should be decided by the military and those that command us.

[Johnny America]

The problem is that DADT would be illegal if any other business was using that system. So they were not following the laws put on them.

[cubsfan5150]

ive been active duty navy since i came in in 2000 and heres my views: ive worked with many people who i either pretty much knew were gay or admitted it. most all of them were good hard working honest people by all accounts and good sailors and soldiers. i was all against them coming in when i first came in the military but eventually i came to realize that if they want to serve they should be given the chance. however, just like straight people, sexuality has no place in the workplace in todays professional military. so gays would be no different. keep it away from work, and if  you dont you would face the same penalties as if straight people were caught messing around at work. so basically, just do the damn job same as everyone else and what you do in your off time is your business and thats where it should stay.

I share your view here for the most part.

[cubsfan5150]

The problem is that DADT would be illegal if any other business was using that system. So they were not following the laws put on them.

EL OH EL... the military goes by something called the UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice.  Those are  our laws.  You can't treat the military like any other work place in all instances.

If you want to look at it like you have, I'd love to see a civilian employer have you put in jail for not showing up to work.

[Johnny America]

EL OH EL... the military goes by something called the UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice.  Those are  our laws.  You can't treat the military like any other work place in all instances.

Well aware of this man. I spent 6 years active duty and served two tours in Iraq as a tank gunner. Just because the standards for UCMJ would be illegal in any other work place does not mean it is right. You said you agree with the other post, so you are ok with the repeal of DADT?