Possible Repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell.. thoughts?

[hawg23]

Joint Chiefs and Sec. Gates are on board with repealing this law.

I think its about time and it was a terrible idea that is discriminates against gays very unfairly. 13 500 people have been kicked out of the military since 1993 solely for being homosexual, what a disgrace. How does the government tell private companies they cannot discriminate against Homosexuals yet do it themselves?

I was in the Army from 2000-2008 and soldiers on the ground could care less a persons sexuality, they just want well traded motivated soldiers.

[hogman]

 = homophobes with weapons. I think its a bad idea. Let me explain...

I have no problem with gays being in the military as long as they don't flaunt it and don't cause distractions and they keep their hands to themselves. (Don't ask, Don't tell) I do have a problem with being gay openly in the military. There are too many people who are against the idea / religion based ideals. There will be many more getting kicked out for misconduct, assault, etc... due to this law if it passes.

Let me further explain with an example... Everyone has nightmares about basic training. Remember back to the open shower rooms with 20 dudes naked in 1 small ass room.... with a bench that faces that room. If an openly gay dude sits on that bench and waits his turn while his eyes are wondering in the wrong direction, there is a good chance the kid gets beaten to a pulp by at least a few of those 20 dudes and people end up in jail and the hospital. I could think of about 20 other examples almost immediately that could possibly happen.

If this gets passed, there HAS to be a MULTITUDE of stipulations on conduct. It would be better for a gay guy to join the military and just keep his mouth shut than for this law to pass and you know it... b/c they will be watched for by more people than are looking for Bin Laden right now.

Just my 2 cents.

[Airforcehawg]

I really dont have a problem with this.

I say this because I dont think that there is anyway that you are going to see 2 guys "making out" or holding hands on base. I think that it would be understood that doing those things on base would be a big no go due to folks homophobia. Will there be a case when there would be a "flamboyantly" gay dude yes...but for the most part everyone knows that guy is gay right now. This biggest change that would happen is that Gay dudes could go out on the town or Gay clubs without worrying about it impacting there careers.

For females, i mean lets be honest here there is hardly no pressue on females as it is now for being openly gay. We had 2 in our unit that had guys haircut and took their "friends" to all functions. If nothing else supervisors and commanders are reluctant to punish gay folks because they are scared that person will say the are being discriminated on based on that assumption. When I was in Germany we had a girl that was openly gay, she worked in our Armory. One night she lets her drunk/jealous girlfriend in one thing leads to another, they start fighting and drunk girlfriend goes for a gun (As I said they were in an Armory) what does the on duty female do....shoots her in the leg!!!! Guess what happened to her...nothing!!! She did finally admit that she was gay and she was separated, but she shot her drunk girlfriend in the leg!!

I mean if we are real about it you know multiple people that you have severed with that are gay. I know I have. I dont have a problem with them or this whatsoever.

[RazorWire™]

I'm out of the service and can't be recalled.

I say they make entire units of them. Pun intended.

[hogginbama]

As a Recruiting Company 1SG, we have received strict instructions to refer all questions from the media sources to our Advertising & Public Affairs office. I will say this though, there are numerous gay individuals serving in the military at this point, and to say otherwise is having your head in the sand. As AF stated, there probably not be a huge notice during day to day activities, the change will be noticed on the weekends and evenings. They will be allowed to have more freedom and stop having to hide their orientation.

We, the military, are a direct reflection of society, and as society changes so will the military. I see this as nothing more than a changing of the times and becoming more in line with society. The "newness" will wear off if it does occur and all will be normal again in life.

[hawg23]

= homophobes with weapons. I think its a bad idea. Let me explain...

I have no problem with gays being in the military as long as they don't flaunt it and don't cause distractions and they keep their hands to themselves. (Don't ask, Don't tell) I do have a problem with being gay openly in the military. There are too many people who are against the idea / religion based ideals. There will be many more getting kicked out for misconduct, assault, etc... due to this law if it passes.

Let me further explain with an example... Everyone has nightmares about basic training. Remember back to the open shower rooms with 20 dudes naked in 1 small ass room.... with a bench that faces that room. If an openly gay dude sits on that bench and waits his turn while his eyes are wondering in the wrong direction, there is a good chance the kid gets beaten to a pulp by at least a few of those 20 dudes and people end up in jail and the hospital. I could think of about 20 other examples almost immediately that could possibly happen.

If this gets passed, there HAS to be a MULTITUDE of stipulations on conduct. It would be better for a gay guy to join the military and just keep his mouth shut than for this law to pass and you know it... b/c they will be watched for by more people than are looking for Bin Laden right now.

Just my 2 cents.

This argument is ridiculous... for some reason all straight guys think that all gay guys want them...

Do you want every woman you see? I sure as HELL dont! Why would it be diff for a homosexual?

[pheine78]

My take:

I have served with a lot of "almost" openly gay people.  I say "almost" because although they wouldn't come right out and tell you, it is many times obvious or inferred.  Not a big deal to me. The biggest issue that I see (besides the obvious), is housing.  This is a practical concern because with all the restrictions in place segregating male/female (General Order One) both downrange and at homestation, how can we billet these folks?  Does the military establish dedicated facilities to house homosexuals?  What about latrines?  This has to be a huge monetary issue that the government is facing.  Just some food for thought.

[fritolayhog]

I'm surprised at the posts in this thread, and encouraged by them.  I half expected a bunch of gay bashing, and it's not here.  Good deal.

I have zero problem with it, and frankly, Clinton should have done it when he was in charge.  With an all-volunteer military, we can't afford to discriminate.

Remember, the military integrated blacks long before society as a whole came along kicking and screaming.  I predict this deal will turn out the same way.  A decade from now it'll be completely accepted, and nobody will think twice about it.  It's good for the military, and it's good for the country.

[Flying Razorback]

Do you want every woman you see? I sure as HELL dont! Why would it be diff for a homosexual?

I bet I don't want 70% of the women out there.  And if there was a shower full of women from that category, I will promise you they would be upset if I were to come in and shower with them.  Even though I have zero inclination towards any of them.  They would still feel uncomfortable.

[hogman]

It will never get passed / repealed. Too many issues will arise. Well... it won't get passed anytime soon. I don't think the military is an institution that is willing to accept this... just yet...

Maybe another 10-15 years.

[cubsfan5150]

Nm

[Veritas Arkansas]

Been a good discussion to read.  Thanks all around.

It seems that the issue of showers keep coming up, and for that, I have a question - If you would be uncomfortable sharing a shower with an open homosexual, would you be also be uncomfortable sharing it with a woman?  Not if the woman would be uncomfortable, but if you would be uncomfortable sharing a shower with a woman?

[Flying Razorback]

Been a good discussion to read.  Thanks all around.

It seems that the issue of showers keep coming up, and for that, I have a question - If you would be uncomfortable sharing a shower with an open homosexual, would you be also be uncomfortable sharing it with a woman?  Not if the woman would be uncomfortable, but if you would be uncomfortable sharing a shower with a woman?

Honestly that is my main point with it.  I don't care if I fly with someone that's gay because it's not something that's going to come up in performance of our duties.  However, the open shower scenario is the hardest part to get past.  I'd say that I probably would be uncomfortable showering with the women I work with because I wouldn't want either of us to see each other in any other form than a professional light.  I wouldn't want to be naked in front of a female student pilot, copilot, or aircraft commander and then have to sit next to them in the jet in a professional situation.  I see my male students all the time in the gym locker rooms and showers and it doesn't bother me.  If the females were to see me in the showers I'd be worried that their image of me would be changed.

[hawg23]

Personally i dont have a problem with the shower scenario. In the 1940s im sure whites had a problem showering with blacks.
Just as i dont have a problem with it when a guy hits on me. Some guys have a problem with that for whatever reason. I inform said person Im not gay and move on. If someone is comfortable with thier own sexuality i dont see it as a problem in any form.
I am glad about the tone of the thread.

[1CavHog]

Kicking gays out during a time of war has not been beneficial to the military. I have served three tours in Iraq and every tour we were desperately short of linguists. I don't know the exact numbers but I know a substantial amount of Army linguists have been discharged under don't ask don't tell. To fill the shortage the government pays ridiculous amounts of money to civilian contractors to fill the void. Some of the contractors are OK but most are worthless because they speak different dialects of Arabic or are incredibly high maintenance and demanding or are old and overweight and cannot function to the standards of the military. I know it is just one view on the issue but it defies common sense to be kicking people out of the military who are willing to volunteer to serve their country in a time of war and who provide a service that advances our overall efforts. Just my two cents.

[H&D]

I just wish we could get the opinion of some women soldiers.  We have many not "openly" but well known gay women in our career field, I just wonder what some of the other women thought about that.  See the topic really doesn't come-up as much as civilians probably think, it's not like soldiers sit around talking about who they think is gay and so on.

 

[Blue35]

Kicking gays out during a time of war has not been beneficial to the military. I have served three tours in Iraq and every tour we were desperately short of linguists. I don't know the exact numbers but I know a substantial amount of Army linguists have been discharged under don't ask don't tell. To fill the shortage the government pays ridiculous amounts of money to civilian contractors to fill the void. Some of the contractors are OK but most are worthless because they speak different dialects of Arabic or are incredibly high maintenance and demanding or are old and overweight and cannot function to the standards of the military. I know it is just one view on the issue but it defies common sense to be kicking people out of the military who are willing to volunteer to serve their country in a time of war and who provide a service that advances our overall efforts. Just my two cents.

"If you ain't cav, you ain't crap."   B 1/9 Scouts, RVN ~ 1967

[freddiethehog]

Can you imagine all the new guidelines and new layer of extra bureaucracy that will be involved with this.  Now we will have a womans berthing, men berthing, and gay berthing.  Everyone will claim to be gay so they can get the extra privileges of basically having your own shower.  I dont care what you like just keep it to yourself.  I love how people reason blacks and whites 40 years ago to being gay.  I dont walk in a shower and say hey look at that gay guy but there is nothing someone can do about being white.  By the way there are still a lot of people that think its morally wrong so just keep it to yourself, this is not an elite golf club.    I also love how people compare other military units as examples of success for gays.  News flash, we are the baddest military on the planet for a reason.  Some of it is because we dont have to adhere to every sensitivity that civilians are forced to succumb to by socially left agendas.  I am a SEAL and very glad that I am immune to most of the political correctness that the big Army and Navy deal with.  The Joint Chief of Staff is just another political arm of whatever party the President and Congress are majority to.  They are glorified Congressmen in a fancy uniform. (generally speaking)
As far as interpreters go, most contractors are far better because they are normally native speaking and instead of joining the military they realize they will make more money by staying civilian.  I have only done nine deployments though so I probably dont know what I am talking about.  JMO even though its correct

[hogman]

Freddiethehog, I love you man (not in a gay way).

Exactly what I was feeling about the situation. You worded that very well.

[cosmodrum]

I don't really have a problem with it as long as they don't flaunt it and they provide separate showers for them.  If I wanted to shower with guys that like to bang dudes, I would have just gone to prison.

You won't need a seperate shower. I marched drum and bugle corps and showered with openly gay dudes. Hell, they showered right next to me. In all my years experience (and these were with flamboyant , mascara-wearing gay guys), not ONE single innappropriate thing was said or done to me. They understood that I was not gay and would prefer if they did not mention/grab my pecker, and there would be consequences if they did. I imagine the "sort" of homosexual wanting to fight in the military would not be the aforementioned "queen," rather they would be "butch." Hell, they chose a profession that involves blowing chit up and carrying a gun. I think you'll be fine.

[cosmodrum]

Can you imagine all the new guidelines and new layer of extra bureaucracy that will be involved with this.  Now we will have a womans berthing, men berthing, and gay berthing.  Everyone will claim to be gay so they can get the extra privileges of basically having your own shower.  I dont care what you like just keep it to yourself.  I love how people reason blacks and whites 40 years ago to being gay.  I dont walk in a shower and say hey look at that gay guy but there is nothing someone can do about being white.  By the way there are still a lot of people that think its morally wrong so just keep it to yourself, this is not an elite golf club.    I also love how people compare other military units as examples of success for gays.  News flash, we are the baddest military on the planet for a reason.  Some of it is because we dont have to adhere to every sensitivity that civilians are forced to succumb to by socially left agendas.  I am a SEAL and very glad that I am immune to most of the political correctness that the big Army and Navy deal with.  The Joint Chief of Staff is just another political arm of whatever party the President and Congress are majority to.  They are glorified Congressmen in a fancy uniform. (generally speaking)
As far as interpreters go, most contractors are far better because they are normally native speaking and instead of joining the military they realize they will make more money by staying civilian.  I have only done nine deployments though so I probably dont know what I am talking about.  JMO even though its correct

I agree with what you're saying, but I think the point is that a gay person simply wants to be free from getting kicked out for being homosexual. I don't think they are looking for the right to prance around and gay it up constantly. I would imagine that most gays in the military would still "keep it to themselves," as I'm sure they realize that homophobes and the like aren't just going to change their opinions/beliefs, etc. But, if they were to confide in someone that they are indeed gay, as it stands today, they would get the boot.

Thanks for your service, by the way. I have a high amount of respect for what you do.

[Flying Razorback]

I still don't think it has to do with fear of inappropriate comments or touching in the shower but it's a respect issue.  I have no desire to sleep with my female counterparts nor my female students.  They feel the same about me.  However, when we are on the road, I have to get them separate hotel rooms.  Guys are allowed to share hotel rooms and the women are not.  It's because it is inappropriate to see your subordinates or peers of the opposite sex unclothed or in that manner due to the sexual perception.  The fear is losing that respect or image of that respect once you have seen someone of the opposite sexual interest in their complete undress, respect and authority are what our structured career fields are based on.

[cosmodrum]

I still don't think it has to do with fear of inappropriate comments or touching in the shower but it's a respect issue.  I have no desire to sleep with my female counterparts nor my female students.  They feel the same about me.  However, when we are on the road, I have to get them separate hotel rooms.  Guys are allowed to share hotel rooms and the women are not.  It's because it is inappropriate to see your subordinates or peers of the opposite sex unclothed or in that manner due to the sexual perception.  The fear is losing that respect or image of that respect once you have seen someone of the opposite sexual interest in their complete undress, respect and authority are what our structured career fields are based on.

I see your point regarding male/female, and I see how you correlate that wth hetero/homosexuals, but I guess I just don't see how someone would lose respect from another man, gay or not, just because they saw them naked. I would imagine they are more worried about washing up just as much as a straight soldier. But I do see your point, and yes, I cant see why people would be hesitant with there being a fear of jeopardizing the clear lines of respect and decorum that is necessary in the military.

[freddiethehog]

Thinking outside the Army world, on Navy ships from what I have been told, they would have to figure out away to berth homosexuals separately, just like females were berthed separately, which cost hundreds of millions of dollars.  It also created animosity and you would not believe how many females come back from a six month deployment on a ship pregnant.  Plus even at my level where the bureaucracy is not near the normal Navy, every time you turn around you have to complete some ridiculous climate survey or go through some type of training on sexual discrimination.  Where is the political correctness going to stop when we add another layer of left policies?

[cosmodrum]

Thinking outside the Army world, on Navy ships from what I have been told, they would have to figure out away to berth homosexuals separately, just like females were berthed separately, which cost hundreds of millions of dollars.  It also created animosity and you would not believe how many females come back from a six month deployment on a ship pregnant.  Plus even at my level where the bureaucracy is not near the normal Navy, every time you turn around you have to complete some ridiculous climate survey or go through some type of training on sexual discrimination.  Where is the political correctness going to stop when we add another layer of left policies?

I don't see why homosexuals would have to be berthed seperately. I realize there is a fear of sexual misconduct, but I think that fear is largely unfounded. I mean, which gay guy wants that ass beating?

[kingofdequeen]

I don't see why homosexuals would have to be berthed seperately. I realize there is a fear of sexual misconduct, but I think that fear is largely unfounded. I mean, which gay guy wants that ass beating?

for that matter, which supposedly straight guy wants an assbeating?

[cosmodrum]

for that matter, which supposedly straight guy wants an assbeating?

And there's that. I guess they're worried about two gay dudes finding a closet or something.

[kingofdequeen]

the respect issue is not wanting a gay man to shower with you.  just the same as most females dont want to shower with a man she is not sexually involved with.

not the same at all.

and chances are, if you've used a communal shower, you've showered w/ a gay dude before.

[cosmodrum]

not the same at all.

and chances are, if you've used a communal shower, you've showered w/ a gay dude before.

Right, not the same at all.

[kingofdequeen]

i look it as the same thing.  have you ever served?

nope.

[1CavHog]

On a similar note I saw today where they are about to allow females to serve in submarines, which would be way more disruptive than allowing gays to openly serve.

[justanotherdisappointedfn]

typical king. Hes never served but he wants to dictate to those who have and do

[Old Tusk]

You mean like Channey and Bush?

[H&D]

You mean like Channey and Bush?

Bush served six years, not the best Airmen out there, but he did serve........

[Old Tusk]

Like many who had the connections to get into the Guard, he hid from VN. But if that is service in your book, I can't argue that he served.

[H&D]

Like many who had the connections to get into the Guard, he hid from VN. But if that is service in your book, I can't argue that he served.

I didn't say his service stood out, I just said he served.  Joining the Guard to avoid VN is better than running to another country.......

[Veritas Arkansas]

I didn't say his serves stood out, I just said he served.  Joining the Guard to avoid VN is better than running to another country.......

Yes, because being a Rhodes scholar and studying in Cambridge is just like running to another country to serve...

[H&D]

Yes, because being a Rhodes scholar and studying in Cambridge is just like running to another country to serve...

Riiight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_clinton#Early_life_and_career

I hate the link, but it's the info infront of us.

Clinton's political opponents charge that, during his college years, he used the political influence of a U.S. Senator who employed him as an aide to avoid being drafted into the Vietnam War.[24]  Col. Eugene Holmes, an Army officer who was involved in Clinton's case, issued a notarized statement during the 1992 presidential campaign: "...I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program... I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification."[25][26]

Clinton did not join the ROTC program, but the temporary ROTC status prevented him from being drafted. This was not illegal, but it became a source of criticism from conservatives and some Vietnam veterans.[27][28][29]

Your right deception is more honorable than cowardice.

[cw2]

No one has ever asked me if I was heterosexual, and I've never told anyone I was.  We've all done our jobs just fine.  I think "don't ask, don't tell" works just fine.  It's about the job, not my sexual orientation.  As it should be.

[cw2]

not the same at all.

and chances are, if you've used a communal shower, you've showered w/ a gay dude before.

Probably, but, it's exactly the same based on above arguments.  The relationship between the two individuals involved is of a sexually oriented nature.  Speaking of females, it isn't an issue for gay females because they have individual showers to begin with.

[hogman]

Friday last week i sat thru a 2 hour briefing on a board to discuss my opinion on the matter. It was amost like a protest. I don't foresee it happening. There are far too many people against the idea for several reasons. The ones that spoke up were actually the ones that i pegged as being possibly homo. A few others that spoke up were the very much anti gay population. A guy stood up that was obviously gay and stated he didn't want it to be passed b/c it would single them out and cause more problems.

[T-man]

This argument is ridiculous... for some reason all straight guys think that all gay guys want them...

Do you want every woman you see? I sure as HELL dont! Why would it be diff for a homosexual?

This seems to be the argument that every homosexual I have encountered uses. (Not trying to assume anything or insult anyone) But that's not the point of keeping homosexuality anonymous in the military. Barracks are not co ed, so without rules being broken you do not see any Males and Females doing naked combatives in the barracks. If homosexuality is aloud in the military then soldiers will find even more male on male action going on then there already is. Males and females are separated for fraternization reasons. If homosexuality is aloud in the military then how will the military keep fraternization out of the barracks??? They wouldn't be able to.

[CurDog64]

I want whats best for the military, and the policy is working fine like it is.  I read an article in the Army Times a month or two ago and a SGT put it perfectly:  One of the best reasons that the repeal could pass is to increase numbers in the military.  Lets say we see a 2-3% increase in enlistment due to the new "Openly Gay" policy.  On the other hand how many people will now refuse to enlist because of the policy?  His guess was as many as joined. 

I tend to follow that frame of mind.  Have I known anyone that is homosexual in my 7 years in?  Sure, but no one asked, and no one told.  Works just fine.

[Old Tusk]

the last time they took a poll of the military, approx. 85% said Jews and Blacks should not be allowed to serve. A large percentage said integrating units would cause them to leave, but they didn't. As soon as they do away with the policy, the controversy  will go away.

[Veritas Arkansas]

This seems to be the argument that every homosexual I have encountered uses. (Not trying to assume anything or insult anyone) But that's not the point of keeping homosexuality anonymous in the military. Barracks are not co ed, so without rules being broken you do not see any Males and Females doing naked combatives in the barracks. If homosexuality is aloud in the military then soldiers will find even more male on male action going on then there already is. Males and females are separated for fraternization reasons. If homosexuality is aloud in the military then how will the military keep fraternization out of the barracks??? They wouldn't be able to.

Homosexuality is already allowed. 

What's ridiculous is kicking someone out of the military for such.

[Veritas Arkansas]

I want whats best for the military, and the policy is working fine like it is. 

Some willing, able, and capable people are prohibited from serving.

That's a far cry from "working fine."

[CurDog64]

Some willing, able, and capable people are prohibited from serving.

That's a far cry from "working fine."

No they are not, just because you cant enlist in the military shouting you are a homosexual, does not mean you can't serve if you are homosexual.

[Veritas Arkansas]

No they are not, just because you cant enlist in the military shouting you are a homosexual, does not mean you can't serve if you are homosexual.

Sure they are.  There are numerous examples of people being "outed" by someone else and being booted from the military for it.

[Pulled(PP)pork]

I'm out of the service and can't be recalled.

I say they make entire units of them. Pun intended.

1st Battalion Transvestite Brigade , in fabulous makeup......"they've got guns, they've got guns!"  "I was surprised, were you surprised?"  lmao


PP

[CurDog64]

Sure they are.  There are numerous examples of people being "outed" by someone else and being booted from the military for it.

Call me naive but the only examples of people being "outed" that I have ever heard of after 7 years of service are the ones that "outed" themselves because they didnt want to deploy.  Actually happened in my unit before going in 06.

If someone is truly willing to serve like you said, they will do what it takes to serve.  Its not like homosexuals are banned from serving, in fact they would have to make a big deal out of it to even get flagged at their initial entry at MEPS or recruiting station.  I honestly think people on the outside looking in are making more of a deal about it than any homosexual or heterosexual in the military.