Tough few days in Afghanistan

[Flying Razorback]

I had the honor of coming across both the pilots of this MC-12 that crashed.  I went to school for 4 years and commissioned with Nishizuka's brother and was in training at the same time as Cyr.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/04/capt-brandon-l-cyr-of-woodbridge-among-four-usaf-airmen-killed-in-afghanistan-crash-88072.html

This one just happened this morning.  A 747-400 went down right after takeoff.  As a cargo guy, the thought of a load breaking loose after takeoff makes me sick.

http://avherald.com/h?article=46183bb4&opt=0

[Flying Razorback]

And a good article on Reid with some comments from my friend Chad about his brother.  The Nishizukas are great people, some of the friendliest I ever met.  His parents put leis on us and brought us gifts for Hawaii at our commissioning.

http://www.khon2.com/2013/04/28/kailua-man-among-4-dead-in-afghanistan-airplane-crash/

[RNC]

Sucks man, of all the things that can go wrong in that big a machine...might be as simple as a broken strap.

Condolences to the families.

[Flying Razorback]

Sucks man, of all the things that can go wrong in that big a machine...might be as simple as a broken strap.

Condolences to the families.

Absolutely.  As big and busy a place that Bagram is that had to be a horrifying scene.  That big a jet coming straight down is sick.

[GusMcRae]

Absolutely.  As big and busy a place that Bagram is that had to be a horrifying scene.  That big a jet coming straight down is sick.

This.
T&P.

[gotyacovered]

sounds like great families. thoughts and prayers to all.

[Flying Razorback]

sounds like great families. thoughts and prayers to all.

Absolutely, I really can't stress enough how great the Nishizukas are as people.  They all always have huge smiles and are just beaming.  I never saw any of them mad.  I've heard great things about all 4 guys but I can only speak to the two pilots. 

[Flying Razorback]

This.
T&P.

And there's full video of the crash on liveleak.  I just watched it and it is sick.  It's a terrible feeling when you see something like that.

[RNC]

Just found it, if you search for "bagram plane crash" and look on the google news links, the Atlantic Wire story has the video.

Looks like they tried to bank it hard after the stall to attempt to at least soften the fall if not recover, but there just wasn't enough altitude.

[Pistol Pete]

OMG, that's sickening.

[Brownstreak]

At one time we had 17 of our furloughees working at National, but none of them are there any more.  Many of them knew those guys though. 
It's one of the toughest videos I've watched.

Other than the 747, we don't have any way to check the floor locks on our airplanes.  We've had load supervisors that have signed off on misloaded hazmat, so watching this video that looks like a load shift doesn't give me a great feeling about some of the mouth breathers that load our airplanes worldwide.

[Flying Razorback]

We have electronic locks with a manual back up.  But we can see their position through the rails.  I rarely check loads but I may do it a little more often.

[Albert Einswine]

We have electronic locks with a manual back up.  But we can see their position through the rails.  I rarely check loads but I may do it a little more often.

I would be checking them every time, just make it one more item on your preflight.

[Flying Razorback]

I would be checking them every time, just make it one more item on your preflight.

Absolutely.  Most of the time we are still being loaded after we get to the front and start running checklists.  But we have competent loadmasters and logistics dudes on an AFB.  Different animal I guess when working with the ATOC guys and foreign workers at a place like Bagram.  You're right though, definitely going to check it as often as pOssible.

[99toLife]

Absolutely.  Most of the time we are still being loaded after we get to the front and start running checklists.  But we have competent loadmasters and logistics dudes on an AFB.  Different animal I guess when working with the ATOC guys and foreign workers at a place like Bagram.  You're right though, definitely going to check it as often as pOssible.

I just watched the video of the crash, scary awful. It looked like the plane just stalled and rolled over, I'm certainly not any kind of expert but a friend who flew big jets and is now a civilian evac pilot said the pilot had ZERO chance to save the plane and souls on board in that situation.

[Albert Einswine]

CG hit the tail and all they could do was know it would be over very quickly. Tragic.

[99toLife]

CG hit the tail and all they could do was know it would be over very quickly. Tragic.

Wow, I know that has been mentioned, but it's scary to think that can take down a four engine jet just like that.

[Flying Razorback]

We were talking about it and all came to the conclusion there was nothing to do.  There's just nowhere to gain energy in that moment.  If you kick ful bottom rudder and try to being the nose down you're still going to come down in a tail slide because you won't be able to pick up the back end with the CG back there.  Absolutely sickening.  It literally turns my stomach and gives me chills to think about it.

[99toLife]

We were talking about it and all came to the conclusion there was nothing to do.  There's just nowhere to gain energy in that moment.  If you kick ful bottom rudder and try to being the nose down you're still going to come down in a tail slide because you won't be able to pick up the back end with the CG back there.  Absolutely sickening.  It literally turns my stomach and gives me chills to think about it.

That's exactly what my buddy Jimmy said, It was lost and nothing the pilot could have done to save it. Tragic

[99toLife]

Do pilots inspect or do a visual on the load before taking off?  Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question.

[Flying Razorback]

Do pilots inspect or do a visual on the load before taking off?  Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question.

It's not mandatory for us.  If its a weird load or a lot I might take a look.  But I'm still not the expert, the loadmaster is.  I don't know what type of load requires what kind of lock setup or what type of restraints are required.  I would only notice a frayed or cut restraint or locks not fully engaged.

[gotyacovered]

It's not mandatory for us.  If its a weird load or a lot I might take a look.  But I'm still not the expert, the loadmaster is.  I don't know what type of load requires what kind of lock setup or what type of restraints are required.  I would only notice a frayed or cut restraint or locks not fully engaged.

Isn't that what the loadmaster (also perished in the crash) does... CG and everything...


Also--don't they have SOP's  for a very steep climb out and decent into "hot" airports to avoid ground to air missiles? This could be a contributing factor for possible load shift.

It looks like (to me) the pilot recovered the airplane, just not enough altitude.

[99toLife]

It's not mandatory for us.  If its a weird load or a lot I might take a look.  But I'm still not the expert, the loadmaster is.  I don't know what type of load requires what kind of lock setup or what type of restraints are required.  I would only notice a frayed or cut restraint or locks not fully engaged.

Thanks, I thought that was how it worked. My understanding was you don't mess with the loadmaster to much. He is the expert and that is why he does what he does.

[Flying Razorback]

The loadmaster definitely knows the CG limits and load placement much better than I do.  He also knows the electronic control panel back there and I wouldn't know where to start.  We check their numbers on the weight and balance forms and we know where the total CG needs to be.  But they are trained on their job and we aren't.  But in the end you don't want something like that to happen and as aircraft commander you'll take a look when dealing with weird loads, hazardous loads, or really big loads.

I don't know if they ever would have been able to recover that aircraft with any altitude.  You just can't move that much cargo if it's broken loose and shifted the CG.  They have heavy equipment loaders and if you have a tank or MRAP or something on wheels that is rolling around you're not just going to be able to push it back in to position while falling through the air. 

It's just one of those situations where you have to believe it was their time.  Absolutely sick though.

[alwaysondbigscreen]

sorry to hear it
im not a pilot so i cant fully relate but im sad to hear u lost friends

[RNC]

For the non pilots it's similar to a boat.

You gotta move people around to keep a boat level, one fishes the front and one the back, and you have people sit on both sides when moving to keep it flat, right?  Same deal on an airplane, there's a certain amount of space around the middle of the plane's center of gravity that needs to bear the weight to keep it balanced.  Load it too far forward and it'll be too nose heavy, load it too far back and it'll be too tail heavy.

Planes have trim, like a boat, to keep it pitched the way you want it....but with limited range and effectiveness like a boat. 

In the case of these guys we're assuming a vehicle they were carrying busted loose and due to being pitched up for takeoff, the vehicle rolled to the back.  The plane is then too tail heavy to fly and they are too close to the ground to do anything.

99 times out of 100 there is a solution to a problem in a plane that will save your ass, and everyone who has a license to fly anything from a 20 thousand dollar homebuilt weekend toy to a 65 million dollar private jet to a 900 thousand pound 747 is required to learn those solutions both in theory and practice, but assuming the load shift was the problem this is one of the examples where there was just nothing they could do.

[Brownstreak]

For the non pilots it's similar to a boat.

You gotta move people around to keep a boat level, one fishes the front and one the back, and you have people sit on both sides when moving to keep it flat, right?  Same deal on an airplane, there's a certain amount of space around the middle of the plane's center of gravity that needs to bear the weight to keep it balanced.  Load it too far forward and it'll be too nose heavy, load it too far back and it'll be too tail heavy.

Planes have trim, like a boat, to keep it pitched the way you want it....but with limited range and effectiveness like a boat. 

In the case of these guys we're assuming a vehicle they were carrying busted loose and due to being pitched up for takeoff, the vehicle rolled to the back.  The plane is then too tail heavy to fly and they are too close to the ground to do anything.

99 times out of 100 there is a solution to a problem in a plane that will save your ass, and everyone who has a license to fly anything from a 20 thousand dollar homebuilt weekend toy to a 65 million dollar private jet to a 900 thousand pound 747 is required to learn those solutions both in theory and practice, but assuming the load shift was the problem this is one of the examples where there was just nothing they could do.

Great analogy and you're right, there's absolutely nothing that can be done with a load shift.

[Flying Razorback]

We lost another one today in support of CENTCOM operations.  A KC-135 out of Manas in Kyrgyzstan broke up in flight between 30 and 100 miles after takeoff.  A basic crew of 3 are said to have been on board.  Seeing the pictures of the wreckage will once again turn your stomach. 

So far this year aircraft mishaps are the leading cause of death in Afghanistan.  And that's without factoring in the 7 contractors from the 747 since they were non military and the 3 from today.

Fly safe and keep your head on a swivel.

[Albert Einswine]

We lost another one today in support of CENTCOM operations.  A KC-135 out of Manas in Kyrgyzstan broke up in flight between 30 and 100 miles after takeoff.  A basic crew of 3 are said to have been on board.  Seeing the pictures of the wreckage will once again turn your stomach. 

So far this year aircraft mishaps are the leading cause of death in Afghanistan.  And that's without factoring in the 7 contractors from the 747 since they were non military and the 3 from today.

Fly safe and keep your head on a swivel.

Any evidence of hostile?  Or just old airframe giving up?  There are no 135's that aren't getting tired.

[Flying Razorback]

I'm not hearing anything right now.  Just speculation based on eyewitnesses which aren't the best.  I don't know which would be worse.

[Flying Razorback]

Well, as in the other, I find out I knew one of the pilots in the KC-135 she was a former student of mine.  Tori Pinckney came through as a student of mine at the same time her husband Rich came through training.  We sent them both up to Fairchild together.  I'm hearing they've got a 6 month old at home too.  Sad days.

http://www.khq.com/story/22165013/fairchild-airmen-killed-in-kc-135-crash-identified

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

We've had two helicopters in my task force, an OH-58D and a UH-60L, go down since we've been here.  The Blackhawk crash killed all five on board.  Assessed as pilot error.

The Kiowa Warrior crash killed a friend of mine and severely wounded (he's still in a medically induced coma two months later) another.  Assessed as mechanical failure.

I've had to precautionary land two AH-64D's since I've been here.  This is getting out of control.  We just changed maintenance contractors to the "lowest bidder."  Methinks there's a connection.

[Flying Razorback]

We've had two helicopters in my task force, an OH-58D and a UH-60L, go down since we've been here.  The Blackhawk crash killed all five on board.  Assessed as pilot error.

The Kiowa Warrior crash killed a friend of mine and severely wounded (he's still in a medically induced coma two months later) another.  Assessed as mechanical failure.

I've had to precautionary land two AH-64D's since I've been here.  This is getting out of control.  We just changed maintenance contractors to the "lowest bidder."  Methinks there's a connection.

When I was looking at the stats I wondered if you were related to the two helicopter mishaps that were listed.  Are you staying at OAKN?

[RNC]

If active duty vehicle maintenance is contracted, what so the enlisted ground/maintenance crews do?

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

When I was looking at the stats I wondered if you were related to the two helicopter mishaps that were listed.  Are you staying at OAKN?

Yep, OAKN is my home from DEC 12 until SEP(ish) 13. 

[Ragnar Hogbrok]

If active duty vehicle maintenance is contracted, what so the enlisted ground/maintenance crews do?

Gym guard, chow hall guard, pick grass out of the gravel in the desert (no, seriously), etc.  They still do maintenance, but their "military duties" prevent them from focusing on their primary MOS.  It's sad, really.

[Flying Razorback]

Yep, OAKN is my home from DEC 12 until SEP(ish) 13. 

My squadron went without me a few months back and will be there through September.  I was at a weird point in my career where I've had schools to go to.  I'd rather have been with my buds though.  I'll look you up if I can get on an iron swap or something out there.

[Brownstreak]

Gym guard, chow hall guard, pick grass out of the gravel in the desert (no, seriously), etc.  They still do maintenance, but their "military duties" prevent them from focusing on their primary MOS.  It's sad, really.

That's seriously backward.  I'm sorry for all of you that have to deal with that.