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Fed intervention in college football

Started by BA Hogwild, June 30, 2009, 12:42:25 pm

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OTTER

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 10:12:33 am
The basics of the argument are pretty simple.  The large conferences created a system that benefited themselves only to the detriment of the smaller conferences, guaranteeing that the national championship, and all of the $$$ and other benefits that come along with it, remain within the power conferences.  This system works to restrict competition, by shutting out smaller conferences.

I'm no expert on Antitrust regulation, but whether or not the BCS does in fact violate Sherman is a question worth looking at. 
I had to quote this because you made several great points.  My only questions concern the strength of schedule issue.  If the BCS is in question and if smaller schools are ignored in the process of selecting a national champion, I would have no problem with hearings on this issue.  I also believe that the answer lies in each and every conference having a championship game and those winners compete in a playoff.  Independents had better be prepared to join a conference and conferences with no championship game had better plan one in the future.
BE AFRAID!!  Be very, very afraid!  The Hogs are hungry and you look a lot like lunch!

Veritas Arkansas

Quote from: UAalumUALRlaw on July 01, 2009, 11:44:33 am
But the federal government would be expanding its reach beyond anything we have ever seen before. If you look at past anti-trust cases brought against professional sports organizations, none of them involve regulating the post season formats of those sports.


Why would it matter what they were regulating, be it post-season play or the assignability of player contracts (Kurt Flood)?

Point being - ALL interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation.  Yes, this includes the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NCAA.
Quote from: hogcard1964 on August 02, 2017, 03:02:35 pm
I like to refer to myself as a bigot.  I have every right to be.

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on October 06, 2017, 01:23:52 pm
White Nationalists aren't any more evil than homosexuals.

 

Hawgon

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 01:32:15 pm
Why would it matter what they were regulating, be it post-season play or the assignability of player contracts (Kurt Flood)?

Point being - ALL interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation.  Yes, this includes the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NCAA.

That is a vastly overly broad statement of the law and you know it.

Veritas Arkansas

Quote from: Hawgon on July 01, 2009, 01:51:20 pm
That is a vastly overly broad statement of the law and you know it.

That all interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation???

What in the world is too broad about that?
Quote from: hogcard1964 on August 02, 2017, 03:02:35 pm
I like to refer to myself as a bigot.  I have every right to be.

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on October 06, 2017, 01:23:52 pm
White Nationalists aren't any more evil than homosexuals.

Hawgon

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 01:57:26 pm
That all interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation???

What in the world is too broad about that?

And the internal policies of an organization are not subject to regulation just because they engage in interstate commerce.

To go as broad as you would have it, the Congress could tell the University of Arkansas who to hire as its head football coach because he is the coach of an organization that is involved in interstate commerce.

And, oh by the way, the NCAA itself is a non-profit organization I'm pretty sure.  And all of the universities who receive the monies from the NCAA are 501 3 (c) organizations and non-profits.  So, I'm not even sure that what the NCAA is doing could be characterized as interstate commerce.

Veritas Arkansas

Quote from: Hawgon on July 01, 2009, 02:06:50 pm
And the internal policies of an organization are not subject to regulation just because they engage in interstate commerce.

To go as broad as you would have it, the Congress could tell the University of Arkansas who to hire as its head football coach because he is the coach of an organization that is involved in interstate commerce.

And, oh by the way, the NCAA itself is a non-profit organization I'm pretty sure.  And all of the universities who receive the monies from the NCAA are 501 3 (c) organizations and non-profits.  So, I'm not even sure that what the NCAA is doing could be characterized as interstate commerce.

To the tune that they would violate the law, of course the feds can regulate the internal policies of the organization - look at the ADA or the Civil Rights Act.

Whether or not the NCAA is a non-profit is another question.  That I'm not sure of.
Quote from: hogcard1964 on August 02, 2017, 03:02:35 pm
I like to refer to myself as a bigot.  I have every right to be.

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on October 06, 2017, 01:23:52 pm
White Nationalists aren't any more evil than homosexuals.

Hawgon

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 02:14:23 pm
To the tune that they would violate the law, of course the feds can regulate the internal policies of the organization - look at the ADA or the Civil Rights Act.

Whether or not the NCAA is a non-profit is another question.  That I'm not sure of.

To the tune they would violate the law and of course, there is no precedent whatsoever for regulating the rules of competition of sporting organizations.  Conceivably, I suppose, it could ruled that the BCS violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, but Congress does not have the authority to dictate a playoff.  Congress does not have the authority to dictate the rules of competition for a private organization even if it were determined that the current system violates a law.

And of course the NCAA is a non-profit.  Does it have shareholders?  No.  Is it privately owned?  No.  And actually, contrary to what I said, most of the organizations who receive distributions from the NCAA are entities of the various states.  The University of Arkansas is an organ of the State of Arkansas.  So, the authority of Congress to regulate this, even if your assertions were true, is really tenuous.

SharpTusk

July 01, 2009, 02:32:11 pm #57 Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:45:15 pm by SharpTusk
Veritas & Hawgon,

Let's quit beating around the bush so the good folks on this board aren't confused.

Congress has the power to regulate (i.e. pass laws, empower an existing agency to create regulations, create a new agency which may create regulations, enforce them, etc.) transactions which effect interstate commerce.

What effects INTERSTATE commerce?  Many businesses do but for this post, certainly national television contracts and teams playing across state lines effect interstate commerce.

Has Congress exercised its power to regulate the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NCAA?  Fairly, the answer is here and there.  Congress does not micromanage these organizations. 

Has the NCAA been found to violate anti-trust legislation in the past?    In some circumstances, yes.  I suspect that most challenges to the NCAA claiming violation of  the Sherman Act have failed.   

The primary case where the NCAA has been found to have violated anti-trust law is NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma (1984). 

As it applies to this post, some NCAA institutions including Oklahoma and Georgia created the CFA (remember that?  CFA Football?) and negotiated a television contract with NBC.  The NCAA threatened penalties.  The long story short is that the US Supreme Court found that the NCAA's television contracts with ABC and CBS which limited the number of appearances a school could make and packaged the NCAA games were improper restraints of trade and amounted to price fixing.  Colleges with greater market clout could negotiate television contracts for themselves.

Here, the BCS is a separate organization of NCAA conferences, including the MWC.  It is not the NCAA.  I have a post which I'll put up which covers most of all that if ya'll like.   
Writer on  hog database

UAalumUALRlaw

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 01:32:15 pm
Why would it matter what they were regulating, be it post-season play or the assignability of player contracts (Kurt Flood)?

Point being - ALL interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation.  Yes, this includes the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NCAA.

Like you, I have no real knowledge of anti-trust law. I had a pretty in depth conversation with a friend who is working on his LLM in Sports and Entertainment law at UCLA about this subject a couple of weeks ago and in a tiny little nut-shell he basically said that it is a question of expanding federal authority in the arena of sports. He pointed me to some case law that would probably favor the government if Congress took action and the NCAA litigated the issue.

Can the federal government regulate the NCAA? Yes. Does Congress have the authority to micromanage the NCAA to the extent that it can proscribe a particular format for post season competition? Maybe. In many respects it would be an issue of first impression. My oposition to it is purely ideological.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: BA Hogwild on June 30, 2009, 12:42:25 pm
Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and President Obama have at least one thing in common: A distaste for college football's Bowl Championship Series.

The Senate Judiciary Committee's antitrust panel, of which Hatch is the top GOP member, will hold a hearing July 7 on the BCS. In an article for Sports Illustrated, Hatch says the case for government involvement -- either from Congress, the courts or the Justice Department -- is "compelling."

Obama has taken every opportunity to say the BCS should be scrapped and a playoff should be put in place, most recently in April when the University of Florida visited the White House as national champions.

Hatch no doubt has gotten an earful about the University of Utah. In 2008, the Utes were undefeated and snagged an invitation to a BCS game -- but not the national championship. Utah beat Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, 31-17, and remained undefeated.

Hatch notes the sentiment for a college football playoff and writes that "almost anything would be better" than what the BCS has in place now.

But before you go thinking that Congress has better things to do than mess with the BCS, think again. The senator cites the Sherman Antitrust Act, which prohibits "contracts, combinations or conspiracies" designed to reduce competition.

If "those with the power to reform the system" don't do so voluntarily, Hatch writes, then "legislation may be required to ensure that all colleges and universities receive an equal opportunity."



http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2009/06/hatch-makes-case-for-fed-intervention-in-college-football.html

I heard a different take on this today and I believe I have changed my mind and agree totally.

Let Congress tackle the issue of the BCS. If they are doing that then perhaps they won't be able to focus on passing anymore bills and screwing the economy up anymore than they already have. So yeah, please, give the BCS your full attention.

Bottom line is, they screw everything up that they touch so they can't hurt the BCS and who knows, they might actually get something right just by accident.

So yes, I am a huge supporter of Congress focusing every bit of their attention and energy on the BCS for the next 3-1/2 years.
Go Hogs Go!

UAalumUALRlaw

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on July 01, 2009, 06:47:44 pm
I heard a different take on this today and I believe I have changed my mind and agree totally.

Let Congress tackle the issue of the BCS. If they are doing that then perhaps they won't be able to focus on passing anymore bills and screwing the economy up anymore than they already have. So yeah, please, give the BCS your full attention.

Bottom line is, they screw everything up that they touch so they can't hurt the BCS and who knows, they might actually get something right just by accident.

So yes, I am a huge supporter of Congress focusing every bit of their attention and energy on the BCS for the next 3-1/2 years.
HAHA, +1, that's the best take I have ever heard on this issue. Let them spend the next year and a half working on fixing the BCS, it's already broken, they can't make it any worse. Then they won't be able to pass the global warming tax, the highway mileage tax, the health care tax, etc. . .

Hawgon

QuoteDoes Congress have the authority to micromanage the NCAA to the extent that it can proscribe a particular format for post season competition?

No, not really.  The NCAA could always just disband.  Or if the member schools didn't like the new formula, they could just withdraw and do what they wanted to do.

Take the SEC or the Big 12 out of the NCAA and there wouldn't be much left.

Justifiable Hogicide

In the words of the great Charlton Heston from 'Planet of the Apes': "Take your (federal government) stinking paws off me (NCAA), you damn dirty ape".

 

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Justifiable Hogicide on July 02, 2009, 02:47:11 pm
In the words of the great Charlton Heston from 'Planet of the Apes': "Take your (federal government) stinking paws off me (NCAA), you damn dirty ape".

You sure about that? Check what I posted above and you may change your mind about it. Which would you rather have?
Go Hogs Go!

The Great Hambino

How about all you guys call your rep and tell them to support the bill in this story:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/congressman-has-a-bill-ready-to-combat-usage-caps.ars

That way, Comcast will stop capping bandwidth so we can use ESPN360 as much as we like (and start uploading videos to the Tavern).

Pigdiana Jones

This is the only thing I agree with the statist Nobama on, and that is the BCS needs to go away and there needs to be a playoff system.

However! The government has no right to be involved in this. The Republican that was mentioned in this article needs to shut up. College football is a private business and the government has no right to interfere.
"In the East, college football is a cultural exercise.

On the West Coast, it is a tourist attraction.

In the Midwest, it is cannibalism.

But in the South, college football is a religion, and every Saturday is a holy day."

Fisticuffs

If thats what it takes to bring damn change to the college football landscape then im all for it. Priority should be a conference realignment: 12 conferences; 10 teams per conference; no conf c'ship games. Cotton Bowl should be the 5th BCS bowl and no more BCS conference tie-ins. 4-team playoff should rotate around the 5 BCS bowl sites so that the Nat'l Champ would be a BCS bowl champ rather than a "BCS Title Game" champ.

Eddie Goodson

It is 100% Congress' responsibility to investigate anti-trust issues. It is part of their job. They are past due to look into this.
"I already won the lottery. I was born in the US of A, baby. And as backup, I have a Swiss passport." — Creed Bratton

Eddie Goodson

Quote from: NolanForAD on July 03, 2009, 04:29:37 pm
I would make the requirements much more difficult for D1, and then level the playing field for all that remain in D1.   Teams like Utah, Boise State, TCU and Hawaii would be on equal footing with Alabama, While the ULM's would play in a division on par with them.  
I would have no problem with that.
"I already won the lottery. I was born in the US of A, baby. And as backup, I have a Swiss passport." — Creed Bratton

Fisticuffs

Quote from: NolanForAD on July 03, 2009, 04:49:53 pm
Then you Divide D-1 into 8 geographical conferences with 12 teams in each, divided into 2 divisions. The 16 winners of each division make the playoffs.  Use the bowls for the playoff games.   College Football fixed!
disaster

Fisticuffs

Quote from: NolanForAD on July 03, 2009, 05:00:45 pm
Would that ruin it for you?

Dont even know where to start.... Far too extreme and not in a good way.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 03, 2009, 03:01:09 pm
It is 100% Congress' responsibility to investigate anti-trust issues. It is part of their job. They are past due to look into this.

Let's hope they give it their full and unbridled attention so that while focusing on this, they can't pass anymore bills to increase our taxes or screw up the economy anymore than they already have.
Go Hogs Go!

oldfart

lets keep in mind that the NCAA does not have a national championship in D-1 football as it does in every other major sport and at all other levels of college football. the BCS is totally separate from the NCAA, it was an agreement among major conferences and some independents such as notre dame (which is why ND gets a BCS game even when they have a crappy season).  what needs to happen is for the NCAA to step out and create a playoff series to crown a TRUE national championship ... which probably ain't gonna happen unless someone holds a gun on them.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: oldfart on July 04, 2009, 09:49:35 am
lets keep in mind that the NCAA does not have a national championship in D-1 football as it does in every other major sport and at all other levels of college football. the BCS is totally separate from the NCAA, it was an agreement among major conferences and some independents such as notre dame (which is why ND gets a BCS game even when they have a crappy season).  what needs to happen is for the NCAA to step out and create a playoff series to crown a TRUE national championship ... which probably ain't gonna happen unless someone holds a gun on them.

It wouldn't take a gun, just a checkbook. If the NCAA had a direct financial stake in the BCS as the schools do, it would have already happened. THAT is what will motivate the NCAA to get off their arse, but I don't see that happening.
Go Hogs Go!

 

Fisticuffs

The higher ups of college football have run out of excuses and still we have no playoff nor an attempt to create one. Its their way or the highway. Im thankful the govt has intervened.

stchane

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 01, 2009, 01:32:15 pm
Why would it matter what they were regulating, be it post-season play or the assignability of player contracts (Kurt Flood)?

Point being - ALL interstate commerce is subject to federal regulation.  Yes, this includes the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NCAA.

So if interstate commerce justifies the Feds taking jurisdiction, what is the basis of the claim?  Anti-Trust, based on the non-BCS conferences not being able to play for a BCS national title?  That would mean that the non-BCS schools want to be treated equally with the BCS schools?  Correct?

For BCS and non-BCS schools to be treated equally, they would have to play close to or similar schedules.  There is a reason why BCS conferences get automatic spots into the BCS:  they play much harder schedules.  If the non-BCS schools want to be able to play for the national title, they should play 4 really hard OOC games, and win them all.  That way, they have the ability to rise in the rankings to become #1 or #2 and get to play for a NC just like anyone else.  I'm no expert in anti-trust law, but that seems like a justification for dismissing this from court based on anti-trust.

What about equal protection?  Jerry Tarkanian sued UNLV based on equal protection.  The court said that UNLV's involvement with the NCAA didn't qualify as sufficient state action for equal protection purposes. 

Pretty soon the government is going to be telling you what food you can eat, what beer you can drink, and what type of house you can live in.  Eventually it will turn into China and they'll tell you how many kids you can have. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

Fisticuffs

Quote from: stchane on July 04, 2009, 12:30:10 pm
So if interstate commerce justifies the Feds taking jurisdiction, what is the basis of the claim?  Anti-Trust, based on the non-BCS conferences not being able to play for a BCS national title?  That would mean that the non-BCS schools want to be treated equally with the BCS schools?  Correct?

For BCS and non-BCS schools to be treated equally, they would have to play close to or similar schedules.  There is a reason why BCS conferences get automatic spots into the BCS:  they play much harder schedules.  If the non-BCS schools want to be able to play for the national title, they should play 4 really hard OOC games, and win them all.  That way, they have the ability to rise in the rankings to become #1 or #2 and get to play for a NC just like anyone else.  I'm no expert in anti-trust law, but that seems like a justification for dismissing this from court based on anti-trust.

What about equal protection?  Jerry Tarkanian sued UNLV based on equal protection.  The court said that UNLV's involvement with the NCAA didn't qualify as sufficient state action for equal protection purposes. 

Pretty soon the government is going to be telling you what food you can eat, what beer you can drink, and what type of house you can live in.  Eventually it will turn into China and they'll tell you how many kids you can have. 
Its harder than you think to schedule tougher opponents ooc. Most non-bcs schools get turned down by the power schools.

stchane

Quote from: Fisticuffs on July 04, 2009, 12:44:25 pm
Its harder than you think to schedule tougher opponents ooc. Most non-bcs schools get turned down by the power schools.

Fair enough, but that doesn't justify playing some 1-AA team either.  If they can show that they tried to schedule the hardest schedule possible, then they might have a beef.  But until then, I don't think they can whine about not getting to be #1 or #2.  Thats what determines who gets to play for a national title. 

They know their at a disadvantage because of the conference they play in, and they should schedule the OOC accordingly so that they might get a shot at getting to one of those rankings.  Its a legitimate point that the best teams in the country might not schedule them, but its also a stretch to think that no D-1 team would schedule them either (at least BCS conference schools). 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

hoggeek

This is what you get when you delete the politics forum: debating antitrust regulations in MMQB and global warming in DST.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: stchane on July 04, 2009, 02:39:36 pm
Fair enough, but that doesn't justify playing some 1-AA team either.  If they can show that they tried to schedule the hardest schedule possible, then they might have a beef.  But until then, I don't think they can whine about not getting to be #1 or #2.  Thats what determines who gets to play for a national title. 

They know their at a disadvantage because of the conference they play in, and they should schedule the OOC accordingly so that they might get a shot at getting to one of those rankings.  Its a legitimate point that the best teams in the country might not schedule them, but its also a stretch to think that no D-1 team would schedule them either (at least BCS conference schools). 

What if the BCS conferences pre-planned a rotation of conference schools so that every BCS conference played their OOC games vs. BCS level schools? No more gimmes. Coaches and programs would hate it, but it would keep most of those who were lucky enough to make it to a BCS game from being called out for scheduling weaker schools to build their record upon.

It would take some advance planning but eventually you get to the point that let's say, the SEC would play a rotation mixed of one team from the Big East, The Big Ten, The ACC and The Big 12. The next year, they would get the Big Ten, The ACC, The Big 12 and the Pac 10. The following year, following the rotation, they would get the ACC, The Big 12, The Pac 10 and then back to The Big East and so one and so forth, insuring that BCS teams only played BCS schools, whether in conference or out of conference.

If you are going to be BCS, you play the BCS teams or you are not eligible for a BCS Bowl.
Go Hogs Go!

stchane

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on July 04, 2009, 04:24:02 pm
If you are going to be BCS, you play the BCS teams or you are not eligible for a BCS Bowl.
Although I agree with that, some teams don't do that because they think their conference schedule is tough enough.  I'd like to see some kind of ACC - Big East Challenge type of format in football like there is in basketball.  It would make it alot more enjoyable for the fans. 

However, the non-BCS schools should be doing this if they wanna compete for a national title.  If there is any beef with the BCS or NCAA legally, it would be for some sort of conspiracy that doesn't allow the non-BCS teams to play the BCS schools in the regular season.  Thats pretty weak though.  Some don't wanna play the better non-BCS schools, but as long as there is a BCS school willing to play them, that argument will fail. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

Eddie Goodson

All the BCS would have to do is eliminate automatic bids and Congress would have nothing to come down on them about.
"I already won the lottery. I was born in the US of A, baby. And as backup, I have a Swiss passport." — Creed Bratton

stchane

Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 04, 2009, 06:38:04 pm
All the BCS would have to do is eliminate automatic bids and Congress would have nothing to come down on them about.

They have at-large bids though.  Its not like they are being excluded or anything.  They have just as much ability to make their schedule as hard as possible to compensate for the weak conference schedule. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

HawgBallLvr

Oh My God.. these people need to learn how to run the country and get the frick out of college football... thats the last place they belong nosing around. If the past 100+ days have proved one thing, theyll totally frick sports as we know it.
2010 Liberty Bowl Champions!!


rzrbackrob

I agree that the congress in particular and government in general is corrupt, but I want to see a real National Championship in college football with at least a 8 team playoff before I die.

The BCS and the college presidents are in no hurry to crown a national champion won on the field, so when nothing else is working, do anything you can. I would rather congress get involved in a hail Mary pass attempt than to watch the game end with the BcS and college presidents running a smoke-draw.
Good is the enemy of great

stchane

Quote from: rzrbackrob on July 05, 2009, 04:03:00 pm
I agree that the congress in particular and government in general is corrupt, but I want to see a real National Championship in college football with at least a 8 team playoff before I die.

The BCS and the college presidents are in no hurry to crown a national champion won on the field, so when nothing else is working, do anything you can. I would rather congress get involved in a hail Mary pass attempt than to watch the game end with the BcS and college presidents running a smoke-draw.

People act like the BCS is the worst thing ever.   If you can remember before '98 when it started, THAT was the most arbitrary way to pick a national champion.  You didn't even have 2 teams playing each other for the title; they played in separate bowls, and then the media voted on who was the national champ (like the split national title in '97). 

The BCS isn't the answer by any means, but it is a helluva lot better than what it used to be.  The BCS is a step toward a playoff when you compare it to the old format.  The next step definitely needs to be taken, and the government needs to have nothing to do with it. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

Fisticuffs

Quote from: stchane on July 05, 2009, 04:12:25 pm
People act like the BCS is the worst thing ever.   If you can remember before '98 when it started, THAT was the most arbitrary way to pick a national champion.  You didn't even have 2 teams playing each other for the title; they played in separate bowls, and then the media voted on who was the national champ (like the split national title in '97). 

The BCS isn't the answer by any means, but it is a helluva lot better than what it used to be.  The BCS is a step toward a playoff when you compare it to the old format.  The next step definitely needs to be taken, and the government needs to have nothing to do with it. 
People are just getting a little impatient. A small improvement is not going to shut the fans up. Most are just getting tired of waiting for change

hogsanity

Quote from: Fisticuffs on July 06, 2009, 12:33:58 pm
People are just getting a little impatient. A small improvement is not going to shut the fans up. Most are just getting tired of waiting for change

Again, they want change, but then they cant even agree on what that change should be.  They screm for a playoff, but then cant even say who should be in it.  Should it be the winner of the curret BCS leagues?  Should it e the top 8 in some poll?  How do you pick the teams?  How many do you pick? 

I, myself, like an 8 team playoff...........AFTER some realignment of some of the weak sister leagues like the acc and big least.  Make 8 super conferences, take those 8 winners, but then ofcourse you get Notre Dame and the mid majors whining. 
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Fisticuffs

Quote from: hogsanity on July 06, 2009, 12:38:19 pm
Again, they want change, but then they cant even agree on what that change should be.  They screm for a playoff, but then cant even say who should be in it.  Should it be the winner of the curret BCS leagues?  Should it e the top 8 in some poll?  How do you pick the teams?  How many do you pick? 

I, myself, like an 8 team playoff...........AFTER some realignment of some of the weak sister leagues like the acc and big least.  Make 8 super conferences, take those 8 winners, but then ofcourse you get Notre Dame and the mid majors whining. 
Im against anything bigger than a 4 team playoff. You cant have conf realignment then structure a playoff system man. You have to structure the playoff system around the current system of conferences. 4 teams is the biggest playoff you can have without destroying the greatness of the regular season (which is the main issue).

Veritas Arkansas

Quote from: Fisticuffs on July 06, 2009, 12:43:34 pm
Im against anything bigger than a 4 team playoff. You cant have conf realignment then structure a playoff system man. You have to structure the playoff system around the current system of conferences. 4 teams is the biggest playoff you can have without destroying the greatness of the regular season (which is the main issue).

Why?

6 conference winners (winning a title game, that is) + 2 at large.  Or 8 at large, placing home field advantage and seeding based on regular season performance. 

That in no way hurts the regular season.
Quote from: hogcard1964 on August 02, 2017, 03:02:35 pm
I like to refer to myself as a bigot.  I have every right to be.

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on October 06, 2017, 01:23:52 pm
White Nationalists aren't any more evil than homosexuals.

stchane

Quote from: Veritas Arkansas on July 06, 2009, 01:26:17 pm
Why?

6 conference winners (winning a title game, that is) + 2 at large.  Or 8 at large, placing home field advantage and seeding based on regular season performance. 

That in no way hurts the regular season.

I've always been a huge advocate for the Big 10 and Pac 10 getting adding teams to have a conference championship.  I'd love for Boise and Utah to join the Pac 10; then they might shut up about being overlooked. 

Anyway, having conference champions play each other seems to be the most fair system out there.  If you aren't the best team in you're conference, you don't deserve to get a spot.  I think the bowl system should be kept for teams outside of the playoff as a reward for whatever their success may be during the season; because once a team is out of contention to win their conference, they shouldn't just hang it up.  There should be something for those teams to play for. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

Veritas Arkansas

Quote from: stchane on July 06, 2009, 02:27:56 pm
I've always been a huge advocate for the Big 10 and Pac 10 getting adding teams to have a conference championship.  I'd love for Boise and Utah to join the Pac 10; then they might shut up about being overlooked. 

Anyway, having conference champions play each other seems to be the most fair system out there.  If you aren't the best team in you're conference, you don't deserve to get a spot.  I think the bowl system should be kept for teams outside of the playoff as a reward for whatever their success may be during the season; because once a team is out of contention to win their conference, they shouldn't just hang it up.  There should be something for those teams to play for. 

Precisely.
Quote from: hogcard1964 on August 02, 2017, 03:02:35 pm
I like to refer to myself as a bigot.  I have every right to be.

Quote from: ThisTeetsTaken on October 06, 2017, 01:23:52 pm
White Nationalists aren't any more evil than homosexuals.

HogSlop

Quote from: BA Hogwild on June 30, 2009, 12:42:25 pm
Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and President Obama have at least one thing in common: A distaste for college football's Bowl Championship Series.

The Senate Judiciary Committee's antitrust panel, of which Hatch is the top GOP member, will hold a hearing July 7 on the BCS. In an article for Sports Illustrated, Hatch says the case for government involvement -- either from Congress, the courts or the Justice Department -- is "compelling."

Obama has taken every opportunity to say the BCS should be scrapped and a playoff should be put in place, most recently in April when the University of Florida visited the White House as national champions.

Hatch no doubt has gotten an earful about the University of Utah. In 2008, the Utes were undefeated and snagged an invitation to a BCS game -- but not the national championship. Utah beat Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, 31-17, and remained undefeated.

Hatch notes the sentiment for a college football playoff and writes that "almost anything would be better" than what the BCS has in place now.

But before you go thinking that Congress has better things to do than mess with the BCS, think again. The senator cites the Sherman Antitrust Act, which prohibits "contracts, combinations or conspiracies" designed to reduce competition.

If "those with the power to reform the system" don't do so voluntarily, Hatch writes, then "legislation may be required to ensure that all colleges and universities receive an equal opportunity."



http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2009/06/hatch-makes-case-for-fed-intervention-in-college-football.html

First off, I'm really not a fan of the BCS at all, but for Frank's sake, keep the government out of this. The damn government can't even handle the serious issues. That moron Obama and the rest of his dancing monkeys have no business in college football, PERIOD. The national championship (and football in general) mean nothing if the country's economy goes to complete crap. /rant
If you just Steven hill, just Steven Hill on Facebook too. Just the link...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43888077153#/group.php?gid=43888077153

BorderPatrol

Quote from: HogSlop on July 06, 2009, 03:48:00 pm
First off, I'm really not a fan of the BCS at all, but for Frank's sake, keep the government out of this. The damn government can't even handle the serious issues. That moron Obama and the rest of his dancing monkeys have no business in college football, PERIOD. The national championship (and football in general) mean nothing if the country's economy goes to complete crap. /rant

Funny how everyone wants to say that Obama (and his dancing monkeys) have no business in college football.....BUT, Hatch is the one starting this......

Very safe to say that Hatch is NOT one of Obama's dancing monkeys.....

bp

stchane

Quote from: BorderPatrol on July 06, 2009, 04:04:46 pm
Funny how everyone wants to say that Obama (and his dancing monkeys) have no business in college football.....BUT, Hatch is the one starting this......

Very safe to say that Hatch is NOT one of Obama's dancing monkeys.....

bp

Further evidence that the GOP has no identity.  For the record, Obama has gone on record many times saying that he'd like to reform college football to have a playoff.  The expansion of government is frightening. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

HogSlop

Quote from: BorderPatrol on July 06, 2009, 04:04:46 pm
Funny how everyone wants to say that Obama (and his dancing monkeys) have no business in college football.....BUT, Hatch is the one starting this......

Very safe to say that Hatch is NOT one of Obama's dancing monkeys.....

bp

You may have missed it, but as stchane said...

QuoteFurther evidence that the GOP has no identity.  For the record, Obama has gone on record many times saying that he'd like to reform college football to have a playoff.  The expansion of government is frightening.

Doesn't make a difference who started. The government has no business in college football. I simply used "Obama and his dancing monkeys" in place of "the government." I'm sorry that wasn't clear to you.

If you just Steven hill, just Steven Hill on Facebook too. Just the link...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43888077153#/group.php?gid=43888077153

Fisticuffs

8 teams is too many. And even if this was the plan you couldnt use conference tie-ins. Any playoff system would have to go by the polls seeding the top 4 or 8 teams in a playoff, not conference champions.

Phil Steele has some good points in his magazine for why an 8 team playoff is entirely the wrong way. I read his article on his 4-team system last year and have been a follower ever since. If you dont understand my reasons why, read his article and he explains in detail and you will see the faults in an 8 team or 16 team system with certain tie-ins, etc.

stchane

Quote from: Fisticuffs on July 06, 2009, 05:31:35 pm
8 teams is too many. And even if this was the plan you couldnt use conference tie-ins. Any playoff system would have to go by the polls seeding the top 4 or 8 teams in a playoff, not conference champions.

Phil Steele has some good points in his magazine for why an 8 team playoff is entirely the wrong way. I read his article on his 4-team system last year and have been a follower ever since. If you dont understand my reasons why, read his article and he explains in detail and you will see the faults in an 8 team or 16 team system with certain tie-ins, etc.

Link?  Or if you can't provide one, can you outline his argument?

I'm interested to hear this.  Obviously, you would have to have some kind of at-large selection for the Notre Dames of the world.  But having conference champions is the most logical way to do it.  You could even do it with all the conferences so that nobody is left out.  But unlike the NCAAT, the I-AA teams would be excluded. 

I know the college presidents and ADs and "powers that be" within College Football are opposed to a playoff because they say it will "take away from class," and "last too long."  What I don't get is how the other divisions in college football decide their champion in a playoff format but still have time for all of those things.  That only leaves the money.  I would think you would be able to get sponsors for every round of the tournament.  With multiple rounds, instead of just bowl game, I would think you'd be able to make alot more money.... but thats just me. 
For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane

Fisticuffs

Quote from: stchane on July 06, 2009, 05:41:00 pm
Link?  Or if you can't provide one, can you outline his argument?

I'm interested to hear this.  Obviously, you would have to have some kind of at-large selection for the Notre Dames of the world.  But having conference champions is the most logical way to do it.  You could even do it with all the conferences so that nobody is left out.  But unlike the NCAAT, the I-AA teams would be excluded. 

I know the college presidents and ADs and "powers that be" within College Football are opposed to a playoff because they say it will "take away from class," and "last too long."  What I don't get is how the other divisions in college football decide their champion in a playoff format but still have time for all of those things.  That only leaves the money.  I would think you would be able to get sponsors for every round of the tournament.  With multiple rounds, instead of just bowl game, I would think you'd be able to make alot more money.... but thats just me. 
Actually no... the reason they are against a playoff is to preserve the regular season in college football. The college football regular season is above and beyond any other regular season in any sport at ANY level. All it takes is one slip up and you could be knocked out of the Nat'l Championship so its important you perform well and stay consistent during the regular season. The presidents and higher-ups of college football are concerned that by allowing a 4-team playoff it might then lead to an 8-team playoff or 16-team playoff sometime down the road. So you see... they dont want it to escalade into something similar to your plan. They dont have a problem with a 4-team Plus One format but also they absolutely will not allow the Plus One plan until they are for SURE it wont escalade into something more.

stchane

Quote from: Fisticuffs on July 06, 2009, 08:28:15 pm
Actually no... the reason they are against a playoff is to preserve the regular season in college football. The college football regular season is above and beyond any other regular season in any sport at ANY level. All it takes is one slip up and you could be knocked out of the Nat'l Championship so its important you perform well and stay consistent during the regular season. The presidents and higher-ups of college football are concerned that by allowing a 4-team playoff it might then lead to an 8-team playoff or 16-team playoff sometime down the road. So you see... they dont want it to escalade into something similar to your plan. They dont have a problem with a 4-team Plus One format but also they absolutely will not allow the Plus One plan until they are for SURE it wont escalade into something more.

I agree that the regular season in college football is the best regular season in any level of any sport.  But the problem is that it doesn't narrow the field down to two teams, one game, one championship.  That was the purpose of the BCS, but as everyone has seen since '98, it hasn't always played out that way.  Thus the need for a playoff.

What more logical way than to take the best teams in each conference and pit them against each other.  That makes the regular season just as if not more important than the current system if that is the only way to gain entrance into the "big dance."

For all your Razorback Football Needs: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=stchane