Will the UofA be willing to pay a coach more than they were paying BB?

[HawgWild]

When are people on this board going to realize CFB is a business and MARKET VALUE and NORMS have been established! We don't live in the days when a soder pawp cost a nickel and never will again!  The MARKET for a P5 coach is well above 3 million and will keep going up.  All have buyout clauses.  And when a coach or AD is fired without cause, they receive compensation in accordance with their contract on their way out the door!  It's part of the business, it's the way it's done all over the country, and it's NEVER going back to the "good ole days!"

This is an unsustainable way of doing business. It may be the way it is now but it will change.

[1highhog]

When are people on this board going to realize CFB is a business and MARKET VALUE and NORMS have been established! We don’t live in the days when a soder pawp cost a nickel and never will again!  The MARKET for a P5 coach is well above 3 million and will keep going up.  All have buyout clauses.  And when a coach or AD is fired without cause, they receive compensation in accordance with their contract on their way out the door!  It’s part of the business, it’s the way it’s done all over the country, and it’s NEVER going back to the “good ole days!”  The next AD is going to get 750k-1 mil, the coach is going to get more than 2 mil and a buyout clause period!  It’s the freakin SEC folks!  Not Conway, not A-State, the freakin SEC and SEC ADs and coaches are going to be paid accordingly!

Everyone knows that Captain Obvious.  But almost everyone would like to see some sort of cap put on the incessant escalation of college coaches salaries, except the coaches and their wives, Oh, and of course their agents.  That's why I stated earlier it sure would be nice to see it all based on performance for how much they make.  At one time in my life I had to work in a plant that built boats.  When everyone was on the assembly line making straight wages, we were turning out on average 27 fiberglass boats a week and 74 aluminum bass boats a week.  When we got together in a business meeting to discuss ways in which to boost company morale and hopefully to boost production, there were all types of sad idea's tossed around.  I had worked at a smaller outfit before being hired by this company, so I my suggestion was to put everyone on piece work.  In the 1st month, overall production was down 6%, after that, it started climbing until we were on average putting through 39 fiberglass boats and 93 aluminum boats per month.  Also, employee morale was through the roof because they made substantially more money, happy wife, happy life so to speak.  But no, we will never see strictly performance based pay given to anyone in athletics, but one can dream.

[3Scoreand10]

How about $2.5 million base  the first year plus $100,000 per win.
Add $100,000 for SECW title, $100,000 for SEC championship, $100,000, for bowl win.
$250,000 for National championship.

[Hog Pharm]

Norvell ain't coming to this dumpster fire. He'd stay where he is before coming to Arkansas. If he leaves Memphis, he'll end up at TN.

How exactly are we a dumpster fire and TN is not?

[From Tusk Till Dawn]

If memory serves, CBB was either last or second to last in the SEC West (prior to the Freeze and Miles exits).  That's unfortunately the market value...

[HognotinMemphis]

How exactly are we a dumpster fire and TN is not?

TN doesn't get 35,000 in stands to start any game for one thing. For another, they have done better than Arkansas has over past 6 years. For another, they have won a NC in last 20 years. A real one. Their stadium seats over 100K. And has for decades. Arkansas has had the worst SEC record over the past 5 and 6 seasons (if you want to count JLS's year) of all 14 SEC teams. We are literally the bottom of the SEC over past 6 seasons. We are the definition of a dumpster fire relative to the conference we are members in. So that is "how, exactly".

[From Tusk Till Dawn]

If memory serves, CBB was either last or second to last in the SEC West (prior to the Freeze and Miles exits).  That's unfortunately the market value...

If memory serves, CBB was either last or second to last in salary in the SEC West (prior to the Freeze and Miles exits).  That's unfortunately the market value...

[DLUXHOG]

The UoA could afford, in all reality, to pay Nick Saban, if they decided such.    I'm very serious and I do have inside knowledge....   Seriously, there is no one that the UoA could not hire.    And, everyone has a price....

[1highhog]

How about $2.5 million base  the first year plus $100,000 per win.
Add $100,000 for SECW title, $100,000 for SEC championship, $100,000, for bowl win.
$250,000 for National championship.

I think we'd all say 1 million for a Nat. Championship, $500,000 for a SEC title.

[TexasHog]

In the current market conditions everyone is having to pay Ruth Chris Steak prices and 9 out of 10 customers are receiving dog food instead of steak.  I don't think this can withstand the test of time.

Might be time to pay based on performance with a guaranteed minimum per year.
Something like 0-4 wins=1 million at end of year.
5-6 wins=1.5 million.
7-8 wins=2 million.
9 wins=2.5 million.
10 wins= 3.5 million.
11 wins=4.5 million.
12 wins= 5.5 million.

Every year it would reset back to 1 million and the coach would have to earn the money.

[toxichog]

If the BOT view on not paying big money for coaches is true..........we need to get out of the SEC now.  They are in la-la land.

I was taught a long time ago.......never sit down down at a poker table if you don't have enough stake to play in the game.

[Snouty]

If the BOT view on not paying big money for coaches is true..........we need to get out of the SEC now.  They are in la-la land.

I was taught a long time ago.......never sit down down at a poker table if you don't have enough stake to play in the game.

I agree 100%, and I don't play poker.  In life, you get what you pay for.  I wouldn't go shopping for the cheapest neurosurgeon or the cheapest heart surgeon.  A championship coach will not come here for bargain basement wages.  The University and the Razorback Foundation should be willing to pay top dollar for a world class football coach.

[Piggfoot]

The initial contract  of 4 mil per year for 5 years was probably correct viewing Bielema's record. But his record at Arkansas did not justify any extension. Beating Texas was part of his job an I suspect he recieved a bonus for that. Long didn't need to give him the key to the bank.

[PorkSoda]

Might be time to pay based on performance with a guaranteed minimum per year.
Something like 0-4 wins=1 million at end of year.
5-6 wins=1.5 million.
7-8 wins=2 million.
9 wins=2.5 million.
10 wins= 3.5 million.
11 wins=4.5 million.
12 wins= 5.5 million.

Every year it would reset back to 1 million and the coach would have to earn the money.

all the wins come in the fall, what about the rest of the year?

[GlassofSwine]

Might be time to pay based on performance with a guaranteed minimum per year.
Something like 0-4 wins=1 million at end of year.
5-6 wins=1.5 million.
7-8 wins=2 million.
9 wins=2.5 million.
10 wins= 3.5 million.
11 wins=4.5 million.
12 wins= 5.5 million.

Every year it would reset back to 1 million and the coach would have to earn the money.

No one is going to agree to a contract with a $4 million sliding payscale. Base pay should be set with an expectation of performance, you bonus for overachieving(winning the SEC West, Winning the SEC Championship, etc).

[ipigsooie]

I agree 100%, and I don't play poker.  In life, you get what you pay for.  I wouldn't go shopping for the cheapest neurosurgeon or the cheapest heart surgeon.  A championship coach will not come here for bargain basement wages.  The University and the Razorback Foundation should be willing to pay top dollar for a world class football coach.

The difference is that most of the guys that are in the highest paid list have been at their programs and their pay is indicative of their success at that program. Certain guys like harbaugh were paid big money in their first contract at their new school but most are paid based on their success.

[Hoggie17]

Good, that would mean Gus is out then.

That means most good coaches are out.

[Hoggish1]

They should pay what the coach is worth and no more.  But, load the contract with great incentives.

[PorkSoda]

The difference is that most of the guys that are in the highest paid list have been at their programs and their pay is indicative of their success at that program. Certain guys like harbaugh were paid big money in their first contract at their new school but most are paid based on their success.

if you are trying to steal a top tier HC, then you got to pay top tier money.

otherwise you roll the dice with an up and comer and if it doesn't work out in 4-5 years you try again. 

[PorkSoda]

They should pay what the coach is worth and no more.  But, load the contract with great incentives.

what is a coach worth?  how do you calculate that?

the reality is, a coach is worth whatever someone is willing to pay them.  that is how the market works.

[Hog Pharm]

TN doesn't get 35,000 in stands to start any game for one thing. For another, they have done better than Arkansas has over past 6 years. For another, they have won a NC in last 20 years. A real one. Their stadium seats over 100K. And has for decades. Arkansas has had the worst SEC record over the past 5 and 6 seasons (if you want to count JLS's year) of all 14 SEC teams. We are literally the bottom of the SEC over past 6 seasons. We are the definition of a dumpster fire relative to the conference we are members in. So that is "how, exactly".

Our last two hires were the HC from the Atlanta Falcons and a HC from a successful Big Ten program. Tennessee's were a HC from CUSA and Derek Dooley. Obviously not everyone sees it your way.

[Hoggish1]

what is a coach worth?  how do you calculate that?

the reality is, a coach is worth whatever someone is willing to pay them.  that is how the market works.

No.  That's bogus and how we got into this mess to begin with.  An idiot with a lot of cash but no brains may be willing to pay more than the coach is worth.  But that would not be wise.

What is the Memphis coach worth?  The OP question is bogus.  You pay what is needed.  That may be more than BB or less.  The issue should be to provide incentive for the new coach to achieve.

ALSO:  It's the job of the AD or the search committee, possibly led by an interim AD, to know what a coach is worth.  You and I may or may not know that kind of stuff.

[PorkSoda]

No.  That's bogus and how we got into this mess to begin with.  An idiot with a lot of cash but no brains may be willing to pay more than the coach is worth.  But that would not be wise.

What is the Memphis coach worth?  The OP question is bogus.  You pay what is needed.  That may be more than BB or less.  The issue should be to provide incentive for the new coach to achieve.

ALSO:  It's the job of the AD or the search committee, possibly led by an interim AD, to know what a coach is worth.  You and I may or may not know that kind of stuff.

cbb had the resume and would have made that much wherever he was hired.  I don't know why things didn't work out here. but everyone thought it was a steal at the time.  chit happens, you move on.  but you aren't going to get a "name" coach with an incentive heavy contract.  you can do that win an up and comer.  and if we go that route.  fine.  it make since financially.  but if they want to hire a proven winner, then they are going to need to open up the check book and pay above "market price"

[Danny J]

If the BOT view on not paying big money for coaches is true..........we need to get out of the SEC now.  They are in la-la land.

I was taught a long time ago.......never sit down down at a poker table if you don't have enough stake to play in the game.

It's not the entire BOT...remember it's not all sports with these folks. There are other considerations. Just as with other boards some will agree and some won't. Much like politics it's the big $ donors and financiers that call the shots and these people rarely speak the loudest especially publicly. The people who are usually screaming the loudest are on the losing side of the vote.

[goodguytex]

But we've been paying top 10% salary and receiving bottom 10% P5 conference production and results. So why continue to pay $4MM+ when we are basically gambling on what we will get? Literally a roll of the dice. Just betting on the come.

How about a contract structured with some [CENSORED] incentives instead of big pay guaranteed for half a decade?

Example, depending on exactly who the coach is and what he has accomplished recently:

Year 1: $1MM
If year 1 not a total fustercluck,
Year 2: $1.5MM
If year 2 is progress, then:
Year 3: $2MM
If year 3  = or > year 2 and all else is satisfactory (athlete and staff behaviors on and off field, academic progress, et al):
Year 4: $3MM
Renegotiate contract after year 4, with new contract based on specified recruiting class rankings and W-L results over past 4 years. Sign new 4 year contract.

And no [CENSORED] buyout clause unless you are Nick Saban.

I'm sure that sounded great in your head when you came up with it, but it's just not reality in major college athletics.

Fact is anyone you hire is pretty much a gamble. Sometimes you'll get the urban Mayer or James Franklin. Sometimes you get a Bret Bielema. It's going to be a gamble. Even Alabama took risks that didn't work out post Bear Bryant. Mike Dubose comes to mind. The Shula guy. Gene Stallings was a home run. Really only one they had post the Bear until Saban. It's a risk whoever you get.

[Hawg Life]

Nobody will pay Norvell that much next year.  That would be more risky than any deal that Long ever gave CBB.

He'll get paid what the market dictates. Sexton is his agent, and will get him what he deserves.

[Pork Twain]

If yes, then obviously they can hire anyone that will take the job. If not, that limits the pool they are playing in.

I believe in was Clay Henry that said last week that he was told the BOT is not going to pay like that for a new coach. Part of their dissatisfaction with JL was how much money was being pent on coaches now, how much it was going to take to buy them out. They are not interested in paying that, paying off JL at approx 1.5 mil a year for 5 years, Paying a huge buyout to hire a coach, and then paying him 4mil+ plus assistants.

Faulty logic?  For it to be true, all coaches that are better than CBB would have to be in a P5 conference and making equal or more money than CBB.  I think we all know that is not even close to being true.  There are a LOT of coaches making chicken scratch compared to CBB, that are a much better fit.

[1highhog]

They should pay what the coach is worth and no more.  But, load the contract with great incentives.

I was thinking more along the line of starting out at let's say 3 million and then base the rest on incentives with the incentives really being and amount that would get some coaches attention and do the same with the assistant coaches as well.  Let's say for the head coach start out at 3 million and $100,000 per win, $250,000 for an SEC Title, and a cool million for a national championship.

[Captain Hogthrob]

Two things you said here are wrong in my opinion and this concept is what is part of the problem.  This is not an issue about great coaches commanding great salaries.  This is an issue about unproven coaches being paid huge amounts for great opportunities.  Butch Jones, Bielema, Sumlin, McElwain and so forth.  Mediocre and poor coaches are being GIVEN huge sums without a history of great performance in the SEC.

Secondly, this isn't a matter of paying up for results.  If it were (and it should be) the base should be around $2.5MM with an incentive plan based on total wins, conference wins, bowls and final four + championship appearance.  Only then would the Great Coaches be paid their value instead of rewarding people just for taking a job and before anything of substance was achieved.

I don't know when, but this trend of paying big bucks to hire coaches who are unproven in the SEC West in particular will end.  Too many sub par coaches are proving themselves to be out of their league and schools and boosters will some day tire of this.  And the huge buyouts is also going to correct itself some day.  Why guarantee a guy that if he fails miserably you will make him even richer?  Everyone on this board would feel like we hit the lottery if we were told we were going to be let go with a multi million dollar severance. 

One day in the not too distant future this idiocy is going to correct itself.  It defies logic, but more importantly, it defies financial responsibility and prudence.

I respectfully disagree. In a free market you'll pay what your competitors pay. It will always be about winning because when you win the money takes care of itself.if you don't pay you won't win or somebody will come knocking for your staff.

[Rayzback]

We may be underestimating the perks of Pepsi.

[HognotinMemphis]

I'm sure that sounded great in your head when you came up with it, but it's just not reality in major college athletics.

Fact is anyone you hire is pretty much a gamble. Sometimes you'll get the urban Mayer or James Franklin. Sometimes you get a Bret Bielema. It's going to be a gamble. Even Alabama took risks that didn't work out post Bear Bryant. Mike Dubose comes to mind. The Shula guy. Gene Stallings was a home run. Really only one they had post the Bear until Saban. It's a risk whoever you get.

Are you saying that if you don't give them $4 million per year guaranteed for 5 years with a big buyout on top, they will turn down the job at Arkansas? What about a contract that rewards you for wins in a big way AFTER you get them? Easy to say it will not work because no one attempts it. Go coach at Memphis then. Or Tulsa.

[toxichog]

It's simple supply and demand economics..................all the Names of the year........the darlings of the moment.......are in HIGH DEMAND by all the schools interested in a new coach.  It will take a lot of money to secure their services.  It can create excitement and hope in the program that can have positive impact on ticket sales and many other $ issues for at least 3 years.  You are paying for ALL that, not just the ability to COACH and build a program. 
If you want to go with a lower base type deal.......fine.......but you are going ro end up with a name that MOST people on this boards first response is "who?".  The names everybody is throwing out have agents........and their response will be laughter.........

[hawganatic]

If we aren't willing to market rates for the coach we want, we might as well stick with what we have.

There's no sense in paying out a bad coach, just to replace with with another bad coach.

[hawganatic]

Are you saying that if you don't give them $4 million per year guaranteed for 5 years with a big buyout on top, they will turn down the job at Arkansas? What about a contract that rewards you for wins in a big way AFTER you get them? Easy to say it will not work because no one attempts it. Go coach at Memphis then. Or Tulsa.

Why would anybody sign an incentive contract if they have the option of guaranteed money somewhere else?  Do you want a coach that has no other options? 

Basic supply and demand here.  It's a coach's market right now and they get to dictate the terms, not the school.

[MJ2]

If yes, then obviously they can hire anyone that will take the job. If not, that limits the pool they are playing in.

I believe in was Clay Henry that said last week that he was told the BOT is not going to pay like that for a new coach. Part of their dissatisfaction with JL was how much money was being pent on coaches now, how much it was going to take to buy them out. They are not interested in paying that, paying off JL at approx 1.5 mil a year for 5 years, Paying a huge buyout to hire a coach, and then paying him 4mil+ plus assistants.

If this is truly the boards position then I'm pleasantly surprised.    There are plenty of hungry coaches that would want a chance to prove themselves and earn the huge bucks.   Let's start low ($2M + incentives) and let them earn their way up.   Not start high and let them get fat, dumb, & happy.

[sowmonella]

Norvell ain't coming to this dumpster fire. He'd stay where he is before coming to Arkansas. If he leaves Memphis, he'll end up at TN.

Tennessee is a bigger dumpster fire than we are.

[hogginbama]

They better be willing to pay more than $4 million a year, which is 8-9th best in the SEC and at the bottom of the West division. Word is leaking down here in Bama land that regardless of Iron Bowl results, GM will be going to Arkansas. Saying he is fed up with threats of being fired while going 7-5 / 8-4 with top 10-15 recruiting classes.

[DLUXHOG]

If this is truly the boards position then I'm pleasantly surprised.    There are plenty of hungry coaches that would want a chance to prove themselves and earn the huge bucks.   Let's start low ($2M + incentives) and let them earn their way up.   Not start high and let them get fat, dumb, & happy.

So, I guess the University of Arkansas gets to be the guinea pig, or training grounds, for the unproven and unpredictable coaching wannabe's in your view......  I sort of thought we had graduated beyond that....   it's such a shame that you and your ilk think so little of the UoA, when, in reality they have the funds available to pay for the very best.    Those "hungry coaches " that you reference are "hungry " for a reason...

[Michael D Huff AIA]

They better be willing to pay more than $4 million a year, which is 8-9th best in the SEC and at the bottom of the West division. Word is leaking down here in Bama land that regardless of Iron Bowl results, GM will be going to Arkansas. Saying he is fed up with threats of being fired while going 7-5 / 8-4 with top 10-15 recruiting classes.

My thoughts exactly.  The price tag for a HC alone just went up at least $1M a year if we are looking for Malzhan to be our coach. 

[HotlantaHog]

Would like to see a greater balance of the pay in incentives. Bonuses for 10-win seasons or more, for appearing in SEC championship game, for winning SEC championship, for making the playoffs. For winning bowl games.

Of course, if you are going to get a really established head coach like Gus or Leach or someone of that caliber, you will have to pay up.

[HogPokerPlayer]

All of this heavily incentive based contract talk is nuts.  It would take every power 5 school in need of a coach to offer only that.  What human on earth is going to say "Tennessee is offering 5mm/year and Arkansas is offering 1.5mm with 300k per win! I even get 500k for a nat'l championship! I'm going to go prove that I can earn my money because I'm such a stand up guy!" There's already large incentives added to the large contracts.  No one is taking less base for the same incentives already in place everywhere else anyways.

And so is acting like the spending on coaches and buyouts across the college landscape is unsustainable.  All of these big time programs have plenty of money, and plenty of people willing to pay up if it produces a winner.  I mean, this is big business in America, what leads you to believe there will be any sort of fiscal responsibility?

If we get a big time coach in here and he wins 9 games in year 2 or 3, he'll get extended, he'll get a buyout, tickets will go up, and plenty of folks will be happy to pay for them, myself included.

[hogsanity]

The question is not what any of us THINK the market for a coach should be, or how we think contracts should be structured. The facts are that coaches in the SEC get paid very well. Would a guy like Norvell come for 2.5 mil knowing that the lowest paid secw coach currently make almost 4 ( not counting the interim at old misses )?

If Norvell won't come for 3.5 mil, is the school willing to pay that kind of money for a guy with 2 yrs HC experience? IF not, just who do they think they are going to get to come here for less?

All the rest of the stuff, sliding scales, incentive based contracts, etc are just dreams because the reality is coaches get paid. Tom Herman, who had 2 years HC experience got FIVE MILLION per year from Texas. 

[GuvHog]

My thoughts exactly.  The price tag for a HC alone just went up at least $1M a year if we are looking for Malzhan to be our coach. 

Which is why it's highly likely that Malzahn will not be the next Hog HC.

[Sivad]

If we aren't willing to market rates for the coach we want, we might as well stick with what we have.

There's no sense in paying out a bad coach, just to replace with with another bad coach.

Agreed. If the plan is to "go cheap" with a smaller boat we may just sink.

[hogsanity]

Which is why it's highly likely that Malzahn will not be the next Hog HC.

lets say they want Norvell, and his agent says he wants 4mil per, what does the UofA do? If they pass, word will get out among agents that they will not pay the going rate for an HC, so it will almost immediately make the pool coordinators or position coaches only.

[GuvHog]

The question is not what any of us THINK the market for a coach should be, or how we think contracts should be structured. The facts are that coaches in the SEC get paid very well. Would a guy like Norvell come for 2.5 mil knowing that the lowest paid secw coach currently make almost 4 ( not counting the interim at old misses )?

If Norvell won't come for 3.5 mil, is the school willing to pay that kind of money for a guy with 2 yrs HC experience? IF not, just who do they think they are going to get to come here for less?

All the rest of the stuff, sliding scales, incentive based contracts, etc are just dreams because the reality is coaches get paid. Tom Herman, who had 2 years HC experience got FIVE MILLION per year from Texas. 

To put it bluntly, how much Arkansas will pay to get a coach depends on who the coach is and how good he is.

[GuvHog]

lets say they want Norvell, and his agent says he wants 4mil per, what does the UofA do? If they pass, word will get out among agents that they will not pay the going rate for an HC, so it will almost immediately make the pool coordinators or position coaches only.

I believe they'd pay 4 million a year to get Norvell but I don't see them paying 5+ Million a year to get Gus.