Reggie Perry has officially decommited

[Youngsta71701]

What did 27 and 26 wins get them in the grand scheme of college basketball? A 5 seed and a win over Winthrop, and a 8 seed and a win over Seton Hall. In todays college basketball that just meh. Certainly not terrible, but definitely not great.

But what has many people luke warm is we have not gottne what we were promised. We were promised hard nosed " pick em up when they get off the bus " defense, fast paced offense and for the most part we've gotten neither. To win last year Mike had to go to a zone, with almost no pressure, and the offense should have been ticketed for loitering many times during his tenure.

And just stop with the "MA hate" garbage ( your guys code for racism ). Not one person here hates Mike Anderson the man. Everyone acknowledges from all angles he seems to be a great guy. He just is not a great coach.

What have the toilet bowl games under Bielema gotten us in the grand scheme of things? Yet you continue to defend him while at the same time blast Coach MA.

[zebradynasty]

Where did I say fire Mike? We'd have to do that before we could search for a "great" coach. But ok, I'll play along. Was Nolan GREAT when he was hired by JFB? Was Bobby Knight great before he was hired at Indiana? Coach K at Duke. Was Eddie GREAT when JFB hired him from Creighton?

Every great coach had a job or jobs BEFORE they became "great".

And, before anyone says it, Mike has had 3 HC jobs, and he has been GOOD at all, but great at none. At his age it is doubtful he is ever going to be more than that.

Good or great doesn't seem to matter to you its the end results. So if you're not pleased with the results then what is your alternative?

[hogsanity]

Good or great doesn't seem to matter to you its the end results. So if you're not pleased with the results then what is your alternative?

There never was an alternative once he was hired. I said the day he was hired he'd be here until he no longer wanted to be because he'd do just enough to keep the job because he'd do just enough to keep those still warming themselves with memories of 1994 happy, and that is just what he has done. 2 NCAAT appearances and the ever-present carrot of a recruiting class that is always 2 years away, it is never the next class, that we might lose if Mike is gone is enough to keep him around.

I was not pleased with the hire, because I knew what we were getting and the results have been exactly what I and a couple others predicted they would be.

What have the toilet bowl games under Bielema gotten us in the grand scheme of things? Yet you continue to defend him while at the same time blast Coach MA.

If nothing else, they get the program 15 more practices and not having the stigma of being one of the few power 5 conf teams not making a bowl. 

[311Hog]

Do you really think Mike Anderson is in some office working and then all of the sudden stops and thinks" welp i have done just enough to keep my job i might as well go play some golf.

Because that is what you are saying.  You are saying that Mike is purposefully stopping short of this grand NC every year success to keep the 94 glory boosters and PTB happy because he knows he can.

/shakemyhead.

[hogsanity]

Do you really think Mike Anderson is in some office working and then all of the sudden stops and thinks" welp i have done just enough to keep my job i might as well go play some golf.

Because that is what you are saying.  You are saying that Mike is purposefully stopping short of this grand NC every year success to keep the 94 glory boosters and PTB happy because he knows he can.

/shakemyhead.

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying he has a ceiling as a coach, and we have seen what that is. No matter how hard he works. I do not think I have ever questioned his effort. I think he works hard at recruiting, but for whatever reason his pitch to recruits just does not get top players excited about playing for him or playing at UofA or both.

But I do think his supporters, those who bristle at the slightest criticism of Mike, are perfectly happy with making the ncaat occasionally, and constantly chasing the next great class carrot.

[rzrbackramsfan]

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying he has a ceiling as a coach, and we have seen what that is. No matter how hard he works. I do not think I have ever questioned his effort. I think he works hard at recruiting, but for whatever reason his pitch to recruits just does not get top players excited about playing for him or playing at UofA or both.

But I do think his supporters, those who bristle at the slightest criticism of Mike, are perfectly happy with making the ncaat occasionally, and constantly chasing the next great class carrot.

You say CMA is working as hard as he can and falling short and that's not good enough.  I want to know, what as a fan you are doing to help the program where you can really criticize? 

If we had awesome attendance figures, don't you think that would help our home record and recruiting.  Like if when we made the tourney we the support UK had?  Or if every game was sold out.  Fans have to start holding themselves accountable for the "ceiling" at Arkansas instead of blaming a very solid, if not spectacular, coach. 

[hogsanity]

You say CMA is working as hard as he can and falling short and that's not good enough.  I want to know, what as a fan you are doing to help the program where you can really criticize? 

If we had awesome attendance figures, don't you think that would help our home record and recruiting.  Like if when we made the tourney we the support UK had?  Or if every game was sold out.  Fans have to start holding themselves accountable for the "ceiling" at Arkansas instead of blaming a very solid, if not spectacular, coach. 

oh, the fans are accountable for mike being the coach because so many wanted him back thinking it would be Nolan part 2. Been much more like Heath or Pel part 2 in results.

[311Hog]

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying he has a ceiling as a coach, and we have seen what that is. No matter how hard he works. I do not think I have ever questioned his effort. I think he works hard at recruiting, but for whatever reason his pitch to recruits just does not get top players excited about playing for him or playing at UofA or both.

But I do think his supporters, those who bristle at the slightest criticism of Mike, are perfectly happy with making the ncaat occasionally, and constantly chasing the next great class carrot.

Ok so you are not saying Mike is doing this (this being not winning a NC because what else is there right?) on purpose that he is trying as hard as he can.

So let us approach this logically.  If the Head Coach is putting in max effort (can't go harder) what is left?  is it the players fault, the fans? the region? the competitive landscape? dark money?

I am not a Mike supporter in that if it was found out that he was not doing all he could to win and build young men/the program i would want him gone see Nutt.  Nutt could be seen playing pick up basketball, and texting on his phone 8 hours a day in the Pit you knew he wasn't trying just collecting a check.

This brings me to my next point, sometimes you cannot "legit" make a big time college prep athlete commit to your program especially one that is predicated on hard work and commitment those are hard things to sell to someone who feels they are NBA ready today.

Just like with football the resource is the player.  If you have adequate facilities - we do, a coaching staff giving 110% - seems we do, and a good history and no glaring negatives about your program then all you need are the players, and then it is on them to make it happen.

The 94 team and the Mayday teams were IMHO almost all about the players and their effort/game etc. Nolan had a part but the players deserve the credit until we get players that want it like those guys did and match with a hell of alot of luck we aren't winning another NC, and i doubt we ever build something of a pipeline like a Kentucky or a Bama in football because we are already so far behind other states/programs in that regard there is no one person alive who can win that battle.

[hogsanity]

Ok so you are not saying Mike is doing this (this being not winning a NC because what else is there right?) on purpose that he is trying as hard as he can.

So let us approach this logically.  If the Head Coach is putting in max effort (can't go harder) what is left?  is it the players fault, the fans? the region? the competitive landscape? dark money?

I am not a Mike supporter in that if it was found out that he was not doing all he could to win and build young men/the program i would want him gone see Nutt.  Nutt could be seen playing pick up basketball, and texting on his phone 8 hours a day in the Pit you knew he wasn't trying just collecting a check.

This brings me to my next point, sometimes you cannot "legit" make a big time college prep athlete commit to your program especially one that is predicated on hard work and commitment those are hard things to sell to someone who feels they are NBA ready today.

Just like with football the resource is the player.  If you have adequate facilities - we do, a coaching staff giving 110% - seems we do, and a good history and no glaring negatives about your program then all you need are the players, and then it is on them to make it happen.

The 94 team and the Mayday teams were IMHO almost all about the players and their effort/game etc. Nolan had a part but the players deserve the credit until we get players that want it like those guys did and match with a hell of alot of luck we aren't winning another NC, and i doubt we ever build something of a pipeline like a Kentucky or a Bama in football because we are already so far behind other states/programs in that regard there is no one person alive who can win that battle.

I do not disagree with any of that, AND if people are happy with being a 5-8 seed every now and then, that is fine, you've got the coach for that until he retires.

I just tire of how NOTHING is ever Mike's fault. Perry goes to MSU, must have been a payoff. Monk goes to KY, Cal is dirty, no way Monk would play for him otherwise. Allen goes to Fla, basically twice since they had to re-recruit him when Donovan left. Allen is just ungrateful for all that Arkansas could have done for him. The defense would be better if the refs would just them play Mike's game. The offense would be better if the refs would not let the other teams defense do the things that we want our defense to be able to do. And on and on and on.

Mike is a good coach. He will put good teams on the floor. He will likely never get busted for recruiting violations. He will also likely never make it past the sweet 16 ( if he gets a Hog team even that far ). IF that is what we want from our program, then we are in great shape. But we are not going to be anything but an afterthought in the college basketball world if that is how it is going to be.

[Youngsta71701]

If nothing else, they get the program 15 more practices and not having the stigma of being one of the few power 5 conf teams not making a bowl.

Ooh, big deal...Practice yeah, but the rest is BS. Just another excuse to defend one and dog the other.

[Youngsta71701]

Not what I am saying at all. I am saying he has a ceiling as a coach, and we have seen what that is. No matter how hard he works. I do not think I have ever questioned his effort. I think he works hard at recruiting, but for whatever reason his pitch to recruits just does not get top players excited about playing for him or playing at UofA or both.

But I do think his supporters, those who bristle at the slightest criticism of Mike, are perfectly happy with making the ncaat occasionally, and constantly chasing the next great class carrot.

So let me get this straight. Mike has reached his ceiling as a coach overall while Bret has not? Or are you saying Mike has reached his ceiling at Arkansas while Bret has not? Make is simple stupid so we all can understand. Because if we go by that I would say Bret did about as much as he's gonna do when he was at Wisconsin.

[Youngsta71701]

I do not disagree with any of that, AND if people are happy with being a 5-8 seed every now and then, that is fine, you've got the coach for that until he retires.

I just tire of how NOTHING is ever Mike's fault. Perry goes to MSU, must have been a payoff. Monk goes to KY, Cal is dirty, no way Monk would play for him otherwise. Allen goes to Fla, basically twice since they had to re-recruit him when Donovan left. Allen is just ungrateful for all that Arkansas could have done for him. The defense would be better if the refs would just them play Mike's game. The offense would be better if the refs would not let the other teams defense do the things that we want our defense to be able to do. And on and on and on.

Mike is a good coach. He will put good teams on the floor. He will likely never get busted for recruiting violations. He will also likely never make it past the sweet 16 ( if he gets a Hog team even that far ). IF that is what we want from our program, then we are in great shape. But we are not going to be anything but an afterthought in the college basketball world if that is how it is going to be.

According to you EVERYTHING is Mike's fault. You know what an old wise man once or even more than once told me. The answer to the question is usually somewhere in the between. Meaning I'm sure SOME of the things are Mike's fault but not EVERYTHING. He can't control EVERYTHING. The last time I checked he wasn't God. And we will never be 100% sure which things are his fault and which things aren't so get over it already. As soon as you start dogging Beilema for missing out on recruits and losing games we should win the same way you do Mike then you may have a legitimate argument but until then, no. BTW, did you raise this much hell about Beilema when Luke Ford decommitted from the football team?

[hogsanity]

So let me get this straight. Mike has reached his ceiling as a coach overall while Bret has not? Or are you saying Mike has reached his ceiling at Arkansas while Bret has not? Make is simple stupid so we all can understand. Because if we go by that I would say Bret did about as much as he's gonna do when he was at Wisconsin.

why is it seeming impossible for you to not try to compare different sports? A better comparison for basketball would be baseball because both sports get a large # of non conf games, and both play a large # of conf games. Has Mike done in basketball anywhere near what DVH has done in baseball?

You cant compare across sports. You can only compare to other programs in that sport. And in college basketball the Hogs are an after thought because when it comes time for the NCAAt they have only been there twice and only won 1 game each time under Mike. To try to compare though, since you love doing that, DVH has been to the college ws more times than Mike has just made the ncaat.

[311Hog]

I do not disagree with any of that, AND if people are happy with being a 5-8 seed every now and then, that is fine, you've got the coach for that until he retires.

I just tire of how NOTHING is ever Mike's fault. Perry goes to MSU, must have been a payoff. Monk goes to KY, Cal is dirty, no way Monk would play for him otherwise. Allen goes to Fla, basically twice since they had to re-recruit him when Donovan left. Allen is just ungrateful for all that Arkansas could have done for him. The defense would be better if the refs would just them play Mike's game. The offense would be better if the refs would not let the other teams defense do the things that we want our defense to be able to do. And on and on and on.

Mike is a good coach. He will put good teams on the floor. He will likely never get busted for recruiting violations. He will also likely never make it past the sweet 16 ( if he gets a Hog team even that far ). IF that is what we want from our program, then we are in great shape. But we are not going to be anything but an afterthought in the college basketball world if that is how it is going to be.

It is the way you frame this argument that causes problems.  You are framing it as if we are "settling" for something that isn't good, and that the future is written and what you say after that is a forgone conclusion when it isn't because no one knows what will happen.  We were seconds away from defeating the eventual National Champions and getting to that sweet sixteen last year, and they did this without Monk, Allen and Perry.

Then you act like there is no credibility to the arguments you posed.  Perry decommitted under extremely shady cricumstances, what part of that isn't actual fact?  because he did, he even surprised his AAU teammates so much they publically reacted to it on twitter.  Monk was and always was going to Kentucky just like Goodwin before him.  Calipari is dirty (looks at the 2 final fours forfeited at 2 different schools).  What part of this isn't a fact?  we lost in a bidding war that probably never started because of who Mike is, and who John is.

Then Allen i could not tell you why Allen didn't come twice maybe he just didn't like AR and wanted to go to Florida crazier things have happened then a person goes to Florida.  I honestly do not think Allen is a game changer anymore then i would trade a player from our team for him i wouldn't.

I am interested in the integrity of the University of Arkansas, so i will happily accept a coach that promotes that rather than the opposite.  If scandals are the only way to win titles then i will accept not winning them.

[hogsanity]

I am interested in the integrity of the University of Arkansas, so i will happily accept a coach that promotes that rather than the opposite.  If scandals are the only way to win titles then i will accept not winning them.

But there lies the real rub with me. Most of the ardent Mike backers use that as reasons to keep Mike, thats the kind of coach we need, but they want to fire other coaches who are the same as Mike. I am starting to think BB is the Mike Anderson of football. Guy you'd love to sit and shoot the bull with, but, when faced with the recruiting disadvantages the Hogs face, is just going to be good on the field and in recruiting. So why is one held so highly above the other. Why should Mike be made of teflon? And why, and you know this is true, every time someone brings up a criticism of Mike, the racist lable gets thrown around like a frisbee. 

[daprospecta]

I do not disagree with any of that, AND if people are happy with being a 5-8 seed every now and then, that is fine, you've got the coach for that until he retires.

I just tire of how NOTHING is ever Mike's fault. Perry goes to MSU, must have been a payoff. Monk goes to KY, Cal is dirty, no way Monk would play for him otherwise. Allen goes to Fla, basically twice since they had to re-recruit him when Donovan left. Allen is just ungrateful for all that Arkansas could have done for him. The defense would be better if the refs would just them play Mike's game. The offense would be better if the refs would not let the other teams defense do the things that we want our defense to be able to do. And on and on and on.

Mike is a good coach. He will put good teams on the floor. He will likely never get busted for recruiting violations. He will also likely never make it past the sweet 16 ( if he gets a Hog team even that far ). IF that is what we want from our program, then we are in great shape. But we are not going to be anything but an afterthought in the college basketball world if that is how it is going to be.

You ever thought that maybe, just maybe, we lose some of those recruits because we won't play "ball" like the other schools?  This is obviously not confirmed, might not even be true but I've heard a similar from different people. I've heard Monk was ready to sign and Kentucky came with some cash, we had a chance to match but we don't do that here. Monk then signs with Kentucky.

[311Hog]

But there lies the real rub with me. Most of the ardent Mike backers use that as reasons to keep Mike, thats the kind of coach we need, but they want to fire other coaches who are the same as Mike. I am starting to think BB is the Mike Anderson of football. Guy you'd love to sit and shoot the bull with, but, when faced with the recruiting disadvantages the Hogs face, is just going to be good on the field and in recruiting. So why is one held so highly above the other. Why should Mike be made of teflon? And why, and you know this is true, every time someone brings up a criticism of Mike, the racist lable gets thrown around like a frisbee. 

This is easy to answer.

Being a man of integrity is never something anyone should be ashamed of or be construed as anything other than a positive regardless of context.

i do not believe we have fired a coach that had integrity who is the same as Mike maybe we have but my mind is drawing a blank, sure we have had some questionable firings some at the time were justified then over time that faded, and others that felt wrong at the time and over time were found to be correct or beneficial.

BB and Mike do seem to be genuinely good guys and i would love to sit and drink a beer with them this is correct, but this fact IMO has nothing do with the second part of your sentence.  Them being fun to be around guys does not detract from their ability to recruit or the facts/circumstances of the recruiting landscape and our place in it as a whole.

the racist label comes up for obvious reasons.  Mike is a black man and BB is not.  Nolan's departure was enveloped in racism.  This is NWA Harrison is in NWA, the reputation precedes us.

And my final point.  We all know or should know where Arkansas stands in the pecking order of states (hint it rhymes with autumn). This isn't something a single man/coach can change.  This isn't something that can change over night even if such a man existed.  there are only a hand full (if that) of coaches in the game today (football and basketball) that could effectively change the trajectory of a program by simply hiring them, and none of those guys are coming here. 

So where does that leave us?  you either choose to be optimistic and throw your lot in with a guy with integrity and whom you know will not embarrass the University, or you choose to gamble on another coach that may or may not play by the rules and may or may not get you anything for the risk.  But hey it is someone different amirite?

[Youngsta71701]

But there lies the real rub with me. Most of the ardent Mike backers use that as reasons to keep Mike, thats the kind of coach we need, but they want to fire other coaches who are the same as Mike. I am starting to think BB is the Mike Anderson of football. Guy you'd love to sit and shoot the bull with, but, when faced with the recruiting disadvantages the Hogs face, is just going to be good on the field and in recruiting. So why is one held so highly above the other. Why should Mike be made of teflon? And why, and you know this is true, every time someone brings up a criticism of Mike, the racist lable gets thrown around like a frisbee.

Until you realize that that is the real reason for some, maybe not all, then you will never understand.

[Letsroll1200]

But there lies the real rub with me. Most of the ardent Mike backers use that as reasons to keep Mike, thats the kind of coach we need, but they want to fire other coaches who are the same as Mike. I am starting to think BB is the Mike Anderson of football. Guy you'd love to sit and shoot the bull with, but, when faced with the recruiting disadvantages the Hogs face, is just going to be good on the field and in recruiting. So why is one held so highly above the other. Why should Mike be made of teflon? And why, and you know this is true, every time someone brings up a criticism of Mike, the racist lable gets thrown around like a frisbee.

10-22 is why!

[Youngsta71701]

This is easy to answer.

Being a man of integrity is never something anyone should be ashamed of or be construed as anything other than a positive regardless of context.

i do not believe we have fired a coach that had integrity who is the same as Mike maybe we have but my mind is drawing a blank, sure we have had some questionable firings some at the time were justified then over time that faded, and others that felt wrong at the time and over time were found to be correct or beneficial.

BB and Mike do seem to be genuinely good guys and i would love to sit and drink a beer with them this is correct, but this fact IMO has nothing do with the second part of your sentence.  Them being fun to be around guys does not detract from their ability to recruit or the facts/circumstances of the recruiting landscape and our place in it as a whole.

the racist label comes up for obvious reasons.  Mike is a black man and BB is not.  Nolan's departure was enveloped in racism.  This is NWA Harrison is in NWA, the reputation precedes us.

And my final point.  We all know or should know where Arkansas stands in the pecking order of states (hint it rhymes with autumn). This isn't something a single man/coach can change.  This isn't something that can change over night even if such a man existed.  there are only a hand full (if that) of coaches in the game today (football and basketball) that could effectively change the trajectory of a program by simply hiring them, and none of those guys are coming here. 

So where does that leave us?  you either choose to be optimistic and throw your lot in with a guy with integrity and whom you know will not embarrass the University, or you choose to gamble on another coach that may or may not play by the rules and may or may not get you anything for the risk.  But hey it is someone different amirite?

+1, pause for applause... ...and some idiots are still blaming Nolan for the state the program was in for a while when some of those same folks were the ones that wanted him gone. They wanted him gone and since he's been gone those same folks are saying damn I wish Nolan would have stayed and bridged the gap between he and Mike then we would still be on top. Lol...Typical hypocrites. I knew it was suicide when it happened. I told myself and plenty others that it would take a while for us to comeback from this and I be damn, it has.

[CapitalCityHawg]

Stan Heath
2002-2003: 9-19 Overall; 4-12 Conference
2003-2004: 12-16 Overall; 4-12 Conference
2004-2005: 18-12 Overall; 6-10 Conference
2005-2006: 22-10 Overall; 10-6 Conference
2006-2007: 21-14 Overall; 7-9 Conference

Stan's Total: 82-71 Overall (.536); 31-49 Conference (.388)

John Pelphrey
2007-2008: 23-12 Overall; 9-7 Conference
2008-2009: 14-16 Overall; 2-14 Conference
2009-2010: 14-18 Overall; 7-9 Conference
2010-2011: 18-13 Overall; 7-9 Conference

John's Total: 69-59 Overall (.539); 25-39 Conference (.391)

Stan and Pelphrey Combined: 151-130 Overall (.537); 56-88 Conference (.389)

Mike Anderson
2011-2012: 18-14 Overall; 6-10 Conference
2012-2013: 19-13 Overall; 10-8 Conference
2013-2014: 22-12 Overall; 10-8 Conference
2014-2015: 27-9 Overall; 13-5 Conference
2015-2016: 16-16 Overall; 9-9 Conference
2016-2017: 26-10 Overall; 12-6 Conference

Mike's Total: 128-74 Overall (.633); 60-46 Conference (.566)

A Couple Points:
- In the 9 years prior to Mike we had 2 winning conference records. In Mike's 6 completed seasons we've had 4.
- Mike's Overall record is 9.6 percentage points better than what we experienced the previous 9 years (.633-.537). If you look at as a growth rate, .633/.537-1 = 17.9%
- Mike's Conference record is 17.7 percentage points better than what we experienced the previous 9 years (.566-.389). If you look at as a growth rate, .566/.389-1 = 45.6%
- Mike's conference winning percentage is better than both Stan and Pelphrey's OVERALL winning percentage while at Arkansas

By the numbers, Mike is indisputably better than our previous 2 coaches. It's like people forget how bad we were.

[311Hog]

It is almost like they went to bed we were terrible and they expected to wake up the next day to a national championship parade....

[hogsanity]

It is almost like they went to bed we were terrible and they expected to wake up the next day to a national championship parade....

No, its like we went to bed and were terrible, and 6 seasons later we are not much better.

[zebradynasty]

No, its like we went to bed and were terrible, and 6 seasons later we are not much better.

We get it you're not pleased with level of success or lack there of. What is it that you want? Name the coach or coaches that will bring us to the level YOU expect.

[Swinesong1]

No, its like we went to bed and were terrible, and 6 seasons later we are not much better.

This statement is why it's pretty much useless to have civil discussions in here. 

[hogsanity]

We get it you're not pleased with level of success or lack there of. What is it that you want? Name the coach or coaches that will bring us to the level YOU expect.

All I expect is to be in the ncaat 4 out of 5 years. I do not even expect a certain # of wins once they get there.

I don't know what coach would do that, but I know 3 that have not, Heath, Pel and Anderson.

[MakingPlays]

All I expect is to be in the ncaat 4 out of 5 years. I do not even expect a certain # of wins once they get there.

I don't know what coach would do that, but I know 3 that have not, Heath, Pel and Anderson.

The 4 out of 5 expectation is very reasonable.  Looks like we're headed that way.  We'll make it this year and be 3 out of 4. 

2018, I'm skeptical about, just depends on the development of current players and how the class finishes out.  We have at least 3 scholarships to work with.

[hogsanity]

The 4 out of 5 expectation is very reasonable.  Looks like we're headed that way.  We'll make it this year and be 3 out of 4. 

2018, I'm skeptical about, just depends on the development of current players and how the class finishes out.  We have at least 3 scholarships to work with.

Nope, not going to act like the 1st 3 years did not happen. This will be Mike's 7th season. If they make the NCAAT ( and I think they will have a good shot ) they will have been 3 times in 7 years. And, lets be fair and throw out yr 1, it will still only be 3 times in 6 seasons.

[311Hog]

Nope, not going to act like the 1st 3 years did not happen. This will be Mike's 7th season. If they make the NCAAT ( and I think they will have a good shot ) they will have been 3 times in 7 years. And, lets be fair and throw out yr 1, it will still only be 3 times in 6 seasons.

here is something else i feel is entirely unreasonable.  So we make the tourney 50% of the time it is the perfect breaking point.

Now i want you to think about this for a minute.  standing at the middle 50/50 given everything you know about the state of Arkansas it's place in our world, both traditionally and in "the future" which do you think a reasonable person would think we are closer to, the bottom or the top?  (hint we have been in  the bottom for the better part of 2 decades after about the same amount of time in the top).

[zebradynasty]

Nope, not going to act like the 1st 3 years did not happen. This will be Mike's 7th season. If they make the NCAAT ( and I think they will have a good shot ) they will have been 3 times in 7 years. And, lets be fair and throw out yr 1, it will still only be 3 times in 6 seasons.

So you expected us to go to the NCAAT by his second year?!  Given the state of the program when he took over that was a tall order. Even so we won over 20 games by his third year and went to the NIT. I don't believe your evaluation of the direction of the program is fair nor reasonable.

[hogsanity]

So you expected us to go to the NCAAT by his second year?!  Given the state of the program when he took over that was a tall order. Even so we won over 20 games by his third year and went to the NIT. I don't believe your evaluation of the direction of the program is fair nor reasonable.

I am sure you don't. I am sure you just want to count the 2 years they did go to the ncaat and forget the other 4.

here is something else i feel is entirely unreasonable.  So we make the tourney 50% of the time it is the perfect breaking point.

Now i want you to think about this for a minute.  standing at the middle 50/50 given everything you know about the state of Arkansas it's place in our world, both traditionally and in "the future" which do you think a reasonable person would think we are closer to, the bottom or the top?  (hint we have been in  the bottom for the better part of 2 decades after about the same amount of time in the top).

Are we talking in college basketball or in general? In college basketball the Hogs were perennial ncaat participants for almost 3 decades, appearing in 4 finals 4's, a couple more elite 8's and several  sweet 16's.

Now, as a state in general, Arkansas earns its low rankings in most things because of backwards thinking and an attitude of we liked it better in 1900 and we are going to do whatever we can to try to keep it like it was. No greater example of that than my town, Fort Smith, where we passed up the opportunity to have Walmart, and JB headquarter here in the 60's and 70's because of our access to I40.

With mike, all I and a couple others want is for people to quit acting like he is some great NC, HOF coach when he has NEVER been that. Again, great guy, good coach.

[311Hog]

I am sure you don't. I am sure you just want to count the 2 years they did go to the ncaat and forget the other 4.

Are we talking in college basketball or in general? In college basketball the Hogs were perennial ncaat participants for almost 3 decades, appearing in 4 finals 4's, a couple more elite 8's and several  sweet 16's.

Now, as a state in general, Arkansas earns its low rankings in most things because of backwards thinking and an attitude of we liked it better in 1900 and we are going to do whatever we can to try to keep it like it was. No greater example of that than my town, Fort Smith, where we passed up the opportunity to have Walmart, and JB headquarter here in the 60's and 70's because of our access to I40.

With mike, all I and a couple others want is for people to quit acting like he is some great NC, HOF coach when he has NEVER been that. Again, great guy, good coach.

Well i for one have never crowned Mike with anything other than he seems like a good man and has had by most measures good to great success a coach in his career.  He is not a HOF'r but a good coach at this point.

In basketball would it be fair to say we over achieved during that 30 year run and are now suffering the yang of that 30 years of success with almost 30 years of almost no success? sure does look like the scales evening out to me.  Nothing about our state screams amazing in terms of athletic talent production, that is a numbers game and in that we lose always.  Outliers will always appear, but are often evened back out over time that is the point i was trying to make.  Maybe we are coming into a new 30 year run of success it all goes in cycles.

[MakingPlays]

Nope, not going to act like the 1st 3 years did not happen. This will be Mike's 7th season. If they make the NCAAT ( and I think they will have a good shot ) they will have been 3 times in 7 years. And, lets be fair and throw out yr 1, it will still only be 3 times in 6 seasons.

By that logic, coaches like Ben Howland, Avery Johnson, and Bruce Pearl are no good.  It's rare for a coach to takeover a program from a fired coach and make the tournament within a couple of years, that's unreasonable to expect. 

[zebradynasty]

I am sure you don't. I am sure you just want to count the 2 years they did go to the ncaat and forget the other 4.

Are we talking in college basketball or in general? In college basketball the Hogs were perennial ncaat participants for almost 3 decades, appearing in 4 finals 4's, a couple more elite 8's and several  sweet 16's.

Now, as a state in general, Arkansas earns its low rankings in most things because of backwards thinking and an attitude of we liked it better in 1900 and we are going to do whatever we can to try to keep it like it was. No greater example of that than my town, Fort Smith, where we passed up the opportunity to have Walmart, and JB headquarter here in the 60's and 70's because of our access to I40.

With mike, all I and a couple others want is for people to quit acting like he is some great NC, HOF coach when he has NEVER been that. Again, great guy, good coach.

I haven't read any post from people putting MA on the level you say you're reading. But you have consistently dogged him as if he is a barely .500 career win coach. NO he is not a HOF coach but that's not what we hired! Earlier you stated you don't have any coach in mind to hire that would meet your expectations So its almost as if you're trolling.

[navyhog24]

I'm surprised it hasn't been trashed yet

[hogsanity]

I'm surprised it hasn't been trashed yet

Why trash it? People are being civil, not personally attacking, and sharing their opinions.

Well i for one have never crowned Mike with anything other than he seems like a good man and has had by most measures good to great success a coach in his career.  He is not a HOF'r but a good coach at this point.

In basketball would it be fair to say we over achieved during that 30 year run and are now suffering the yang of that 30 years of success with almost 30 years of almost no success? sure does look like the scales evening out to me.  Nothing about our state screams amazing in terms of athletic talent production, that is a numbers game and in that we lose always.  Outliers will always appear, but are often evened back out over time that is the point i was trying to make.  Maybe we are coming into a new 30 year run of success it all goes in cycles.

Overachieving is sucking for 30 years then having a couple big years. Don't really think a 30 year run is over achieving.

[311Hog]

Why trash it? People are being civil, not personally attacking, and sharing their opinions.

Overachieving is sucking for 30 years then having a couple big years. Don't really think a 30 year run is over achieving.

But isn't that what that 30 year run really is?  I mean IMHO that time frame is pretty much broken down into a hand full of eras.  You got the Triplets, MayDay, and Corliss.

Overachieving is doing more than what logic/statistics tell you you should be capable of doing. tiny town in the Ozarks in an infamously redneck state is some how a legit basketball power?  crazy when you think about it, but it did happen and then we tore it down.  Our wounds are self inflicted. 

[hogsanity]

But isn't that what that 30 year run really is?  I mean IMHO that time frame is pretty much broken down into a hand full of eras.  You got the Triplets, MayDay, and Corliss.

Overachieving is doing more than what logic/statistics tell you you should be capable of doing. tiny town in the Ozarks in an infamously redneck state is some how a legit basketball power?  crazy when you think about it, but it did happen and then we tore it down.  Our wounds are self inflicted. 

Then it definitely is not over achieving if it was broken from within.

However, I will agree it was done in a different form of college ball. When players almost always played out their eligibility. Would Day/Mayberry/Miller have even played 2 years together now? Would Corliss? Sidney? Big Joe?

Again, though, My question is do our own fans think the program can get back to what it was in the 70's 80's 90's. If so, then you have to ask why has Mike not gotten anywhere close to those levels going into year 7. If you do not think the program can get back to those levels, then they have the perfect coach to be on the ncaat bubble enough or in as a 8-10 seed enough to keep them interested.

[311Hog]

Then it definitely is not over achieving if it was broken from within.

However, I will agree it was done in a different form of college ball. When players almost always played out their eligibility. Would Day/Mayberry/Miller have even played 2 years together now? Would Corliss? Sidney? Big Joe?

Again, though, My question is do our own fans think the program can get back to what it was in the 70's 80's 90's. If so, then you have to ask why has Mike not gotten anywhere close to those levels going into year 7. If you do not think the program can get back to those levels, then they have the perfect coach to be on the ncaat bubble enough or in as a 8-10 seed enough to keep them interested.

But that is my point you just touched on it and i am not sure you know you did.

1. we salted the ground when we engaged in the Broyles vs Nolan race issue.  We already exist in a suspect part of our country, squeel like a pig, harrison etc. but up until that point it wasn't a "national' story per say.
2. Back then as you say, the landscape of our world and of college basketball was totally different almost to the point of it not even being the same game.  With twitter, television, the internet kids are money making stars before they even graduate high school, in some cases in 9th grade.  I mean there is a phase for this "1 and done" in the 90's this didn't even exist. 

Everything has it's place in time.  I think that is the problem you are having with Mike you are trying/expecting him to replicate something that isn't possible to do unless you have a time machine.

If you ask why Mike hasn't gotten a national championship or final four we have already been over this in my previous reply.  He is working 110%, we have the best facilities money can buy all variables that can be controlled are being controlled so what is left?

Why are we not Kentucky? that answer is dynamic and would take a week to explain and probably still would fall short.  My simple answer is that Mike subscribes to a hard work, do things the right way style yes from the 70 80 90's and for some kids this just does not work for them, and instead of "greasing the wheels" he does his best and lives with the results.  I can live with this, the last thing i want to see is NCAA sanctions against the UofA.  I would take the L before that. 

Side note have you ever seen the movie Blue Chips? it is pretty good for this argument.

[hogsanity]

Everything has it's place in time.  I think that is the problem you are having with Mike you are trying/expecting him to replicate something that isn't possible to do unless you have a time machine.

I am not expecting him to do anything he did not say he was going to do when he took the job, but he has done precious little of any of that ( and yes I realize much of it was rah rah for the fans and coach speak ). If he was brought in to maybe make the ncaat, be around the bubble, great, awesome. But the fans who support him no end need to quit talking about final 4's, cause that isnt likely to happen with him as HC.

My problem is not, nor has it ever been with Mike. My problem is with the fact that he can not be criticized at all without the person doing the criticism being labeled as a hater or racist. Last year, when they got beat at home by Vandy and at Mizzu, and blown out at OSU, I don't care what color the coach was, the team was playing horribly and Mike was stubbornly continuing to do the same things. The criticism was valid and warranted.  The issue I have is that, if the coach were anyone else, the same people defending Mike would be out with pitchforks.

Also, and this has bugged me for a decade, When people were critical of Heat, and when he was fired, no one screamed racism then...why not? 

[Youngsta71701]

This statement is why it's pretty much useless to have civil discussions in here.

Yeah, he must have flunked math. It's common sense to me. We are much better than we were and we still haven't peaked.

[311Hog]

I am not expecting him to do anything he did not say he was going to do when he took the job, but he has done precious little of any of that ( and yes I realize much of it was rah rah for the fans and coach speak ). If he was brought in to maybe make the ncaat, be around the bubble, great, awesome. But the fans who support him no end need to quit talking about final 4's, cause that isnt likely to happen with him as HC.

My problem is not, nor has it ever been with Mike. My problem is with the fact that he can not be criticized at all without the person doing the criticism being labeled as a hater or racist. Last year, when they got beat at home by Vandy and at Mizzu, and blown out at OSU, I don't care what color the coach was, the team was playing horribly and Mike was stubbornly continuing to do the same things. The criticism was valid and warranted.  The issue I have is that, if the coach were anyone else, the same people defending Mike would be out with pitchforks.

Also, and this has bugged me for a decade, When people were critical of Heat, and when he was fired, no one screamed racism then...why not? 

That is the thing with racism.  there is no step 1 person of color .....step 4 racism.

Who knows if Broyles - Nolan was racism i have no idea i wasn't there, but it sure feels like it was at least in some part.  I think the racism argument was already laid bare with Nolan and that heath was such an after thought no one really cared to fight about it anymore the damage was done and in much bigger scale with Nolan.

criticizing basketball choices to me is totally acceptable it is why we are here, things that drive me crazy is expecting things when there is no logical reason for that expectation other then you want it to be that way.  a big part of UofA's charm is that it surprised people with how great it actually is, a hidden gem.  this also has negatives when it comes to main stream exposure and main stream success that comes easier for places more suited for such things.

[Tusks]

I like MA and want to keep him.  I think MA is capable of catching lightning in a bottle.

I'm not thrilled with BB.  I don't think he's capable of catching lightning in a bottle.

[Youngsta71701]

Nope, not going to act like the 1st 3 years did not happen. This will be Mike's 7th season. If they make the NCAAT ( and I think they will have a good shot ) they will have been 3 times in 7 years. And, lets be fair and throw out yr 1, it will still only be 3 times in 6 seasons.

Look what Coach K did his first 3 years at Duke. He turned out to be a pretty good coach didn't he? Point being sometimes you just have to be patient and see what happens. And I know patience in todays world is a whole lot shorter than it used to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski

[311Hog]

I like MA and want to keep him.  I think MA is capable of catching lightning in a bottle.

I'm not thrilled with BB.  I don't think he's capable of catching lightning in a bottle.

I like them both, i think it is far more likely and far easier for Mike to catch lightening because given our population/demographic disadvantages it would be and has proven to happen that AR can produce major basketball talent, and unlike in football you only need 1 or 2 as oppose to upwards of 50 for football.

[hogsanity]

That is the thing with racism.  there is no step 1 person of color .....step 4 racism.

Who knows if Broyles - Nolan was racism i have no idea i wasn't there, but it sure feels like it was at least in some part.  I think the racism argument was already laid bare with Nolan and that heath was such an after thought no one really cared to fight about it anymore the damage was done and in much bigger scale with Nolan.

criticizing basketball choices to me is totally acceptable it is why we are here, things that drive me crazy is expecting things when there is no logical reason for that expectation other then you want it to be that way.  a big part of UofA's charm is that it surprised people with how great it actually is, a hidden gem.  this also has negatives when it comes to main stream exposure and main stream success that comes easier for places more suited for such things.

We have gotten exactly what I expected we would get when he was hired. What I can't believe, in a sport where we have had ALOT of past success, that so many are fine with having what we have. NCAAT once every 3 seasons. And the ONLY reason they accept that is because they get to see Mike on the sideline.

[Youngsta71701]

I am not expecting him to do anything he did not say he was going to do when he took the job, but he has done precious little of any of that ( and yes I realize much of it was rah rah for the fans and coach speak ). If he was brought in to maybe make the ncaat, be around the bubble, great, awesome. But the fans who support him no end need to quit talking about final 4's, cause that isnt likely to happen with him as HC.

My problem is not, nor has it ever been with Mike. My problem is with the fact that he can not be criticized at all without the person doing the criticism being labeled as a hater or racist. Last year, when they got beat at home by Vandy and at Mizzu, and blown out at OSU, I don't care what color the coach was, the team was playing horribly and Mike was stubbornly continuing to do the same things. The criticism was valid and warranted.  The issue I have is that, if the coach were anyone else, the same people defending Mike would be out with pitchforks.

Also, and this has bugged me for a decade, When people were critical of Heat, and when he was fired, no one screamed racism then...why not?

If I'm not mistaken a lot of Mike supporters criticized him during that time as well. Myself included. The difference is we chose to keep believing with the idea that Mike is a smart enough guy that would make the necessary changes that needed to be made to get this thing back on the right track. And I believe he did that. But of course you would say he didn't have anything to do with that. It's was all the players. Right?

[zebradynasty]

I am not expecting him to do anything he did not say he was going to do when he took the job, but he has done precious little of any of that ( and yes I realize much of it was rah rah for the fans and coach speak ). If he was brought in to maybe make the ncaat, be around the bubble, great, awesome. But the fans who support him no end need to quit talking about final 4's, cause that isnt likely to happen with him as HC.

My problem is not, nor has it ever been with Mike. My problem is with the fact that he can not be criticized at all without the person doing the criticism being labeled as a hater or racist. Last year, when they got beat at home by Vandy and at Mizzu, and blown out at OSU, I don't care what color the coach was, the team was playing horribly and Mike was stubbornly continuing to do the same things. The criticism was valid and warranted.  The issue I have is that, if the coach were anyone else, the same people defending Mike would be out with pitchforks.

Also, and this has bugged me for a decade, When people were critical of Heat, and when he was fired, no one screamed racism then...why not?

He was criticized for the slump and justifiably so. However, what you called stubbornness most called growing pains in trying to get JUCO players adjusted to D1. To be fair to Mike what he did was pretty impressive. I can't recall any coach recently bringing in that many JUCOs and veteran players and win 26 games. They played through the slump and by the time the NCAAT came they were playing like a potential sweet-16 team. So that cancels out.

The difference between MA and Heath...about 20 wins! 54% over 5 years will get you fired when added in with the APR. I will say this him getting fired the same year he went to the NCAAT was surprising. But in his 5 years I never fielded a team that one could say watch out for or up and coming.

[hogsanity]

Look what Coach K did his first 3 years at Duke. He turned out to be a pretty good coach didn't he? Point being sometimes you just have to be patient and see what happens. And I know patience in todays world is a whole lot shorter than it used to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski

In his 1st 6 seasons at Duke he took them to the NIt, missed post season, missed post season, ncaat rnd of 32, ncaat rnd of 32, and in his 6th season they went to the finals of the ncaat. Then in years 7-12 they went sweet 16, final 4, final 4, runner up, ncaat champs, ncaat champs. Are you really going to try to compare Mike to Coach K?

[Youngsta71701]

In his 1st 6 seasons at Duke he took them to the NIt, missed post season, missed post season, ncaat rnd of 32, ncaat rnd of 32, and in his 6th season they went to the finals of the ncaat. Then in years 7-12 they went sweet 16, final 4, final 4, runner up, ncaat champs, ncaat champs. Are you really going to try to compare Mike to Coach K?

Ok, and with Mike we went to the NIT in year 3, NCAA round of 32 in year 4, missed the postseason in year 5, and NCAA round of 32 yet again in year 6. Not too shabby if you ask me. One blip on the radar since he's gotten all of HIS players in the system. And believe me there are certain players that are better off in certain systems. Doesn't matter if they're 5* or a no*.