Baylor - Shameful

[texas tush hog]

If Penn State can do what so many in that program did and not get the death penalty, then Baylor won't get it either. They may deserve it, but they won't get it.

Penn State recovered and so will Baylor. For Christ's sake the head coach's head rolled as well as the University president, and the A.D.. That's pretty serious stuff there already.

[3kgthog]

I wouldn't be surprised if this also extends to the basketball program once every stone is turned.

[King Kong]

Penn State recovered and so will Baylor. For Christ's sake the head coach's head rolled as well as the University president, and the A.D.. That's pretty serious stuff there already.

Much easier for program like Penn State to recover than Baylor

[jackflash]

the shame here is if the NCAA dose nothing

[jgphillips3]

Much easier for program like Penn State to recover than Baylor

Exactly.  Penn State is a blue blood.  Baylor is a historical also ran.  However, Baylor owns Waco and is in a recruiting hotbed so they too will recover...but not to the top 10.

[sickboy]

I wouldn't be surprised if this also extends to the basketball program once every stone is turned.

I can't remember which philosopher it was, but there's a great quote about scandals involving public sentiment and it goes "however bad a scandal looks it's really ten times worse".

[Hugo Bezdek]

One of the main differences between Baylor and Penn State is Title IX (which is not just about athletic scholarships). While Penn State basically got off the hook by convincing the powers that be that the problems were mostly the criminal acts of an individual, Title IX makes the culture at Baylor the issue. Making the campus an unsafe environment for women, and actually yanking the scholarship of a female athlete who had filed charges, brings a different kind of scrutiny on Baylor. I hope they hang, regardless of what Penn State got away with. That shouldn't have happened either.

[PORKULATOR]

They shouldn't be allowed a football program for at least 8 years if that's the product they allowed there.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Ahhhh, here's a follow up question....with the Big 12 in the fix that they are currently in with not having enough teams for a legit conference and with wanting to produce a CCG after everyone has played each other once, how would the elimination of a program from the existing conference further weaken what they were trying to re-instill by having a CCG? That cuts them down to what? 9 teams and totally screws up the schedule if Baylor gets the true death penalty for a few years.

Does this send the Big 12 scrambling to add an odd assortment of teams? The conference as a whole is in big trouble if Baylor gets the death penalty. Already too small and then, even smaller.

And how does that effect the conference t.v. package? Oh the ramifications of one team in a smaller conference really screwing up and sticking it to everyone else at the same time.

I would just throw this out there again as a consideration as it relates to Baylor, the Big 12 and the t.v. networks. Some have the opinion that because of what it would mean for the lack of stability that it would create for the entire Big 12 in the future as a P-5 conference, that Baylor will not get the death penalty. Not to mention what it would cost in terms of the current Big 12 T.V. package. Lots of folks have a dog in this fight.

[Hugo Bezdek]

I would just throw this out there again as a consideration as it relates to Baylor, the Big 12 and the t.v. networks. Some have the opinion that because of what it would mean for the lack of stability that it would create for the entire Big 12 in the future as a P-5 conference, that Baylor will not get the death penalty. Not to mention what it would cost in terms of the current Big 12 T.V. package. Lots of folks have a dog in this fight.

I've read before that the Big XII media deals require that they stay at a minimum of ten members. I suspect if Baylor got canned that Houston would very quickly be ushered into the league. Or... if OU is still itching to make a move, they might use it as a justification to leave. This Baylor situation was not unknown to the B12 when they decided not to expand. What the conversations were behind closed doors with each other and with the networks would be interesting to know.

[Calling All Hogs]

Even Auburn won't touch Briles now and that is saying something.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I've read before that the Big XII media deals require that they stay at a minimum of ten members. I suspect if Baylor got canned that Houston would very quickly be ushered into the league. Or... if OU is still itching to make a move, they might use it as a justification to leave. This Baylor situation was not unknown to the B12 when they decided not to expand. What the conversations were behind closed doors with each other and with the networks would be interesting to know.

I think that if the NCAA does decide to issue the death penalty to Baylor, it could present a number of scenarios.

One would be the NCAA helping the Big 12 to expand more immediately (allowing teams in other lesser conferences to join almost immediately). But if that happens, it is going to have a negative effect on a lot of other teams schedules beyond just the Big 12. So how likely is that to occur?

Another scenario would be allowing everyone to go find a new conference home on their own and abandon the Big 12, and that would be even more problematic, especially for teams like Texas Tech, K-State and Iowa State and Kansas perhaps to a lesser extent. So probably not an option.

But the t.v. deal would be the part that could really hurt the Big 12 after all of these years of stalling in terms of expansion. I guess they could continue to exist with just 9 teams as a conference, waiting for Baylor to eventually return to the fold, but I would bet that there would be an immediate renegotiation of the existing t.v. package that would reduce the amount that each team would share.

The least damaging way to approach this from the NCAA's angle would be to ban Art Briles from coaching NCAA college football for 10 years, remove 15 scholarships per year from Baylor for the next 5 years, issue a 5 year bowl ban (window dressing) and issue an opinion that recommends (or maybe requires, though they have no actual legal standing to do so) that Baylor pay damages to the victims of this abuse.

I'll be shocked if the NCAA issues the actual death penalty to Baylor. It has too much of a negative effect on too many other parties who had nothing to do with the situation.

[Hugo Bezdek]

I think that if the NCAA does decide to issue the death penalty to Baylor, it could present a number of scenarios.

One would be the NCAA helping the Big 12 to expand more immediately (allowing teams in other lesser conferences to join almost immediately). But if that happens, it is going to have a negative effect on a lot of other teams schedules beyond just the Big 12. So how likely is that to occur?

Another scenario would be allowing everyone to go find a new conference home on their own and abandon the Big 12, and that would be even more problematic, especially for teams like Texas Tech, K-State and Iowa State and Kansas perhaps to a lesser extent. So probably not an option.

But the t.v. deal would be the part that could really hurt the Big 12 after all of these years of stalling in terms of expansion. I guess they could continue to exist with just 9 teams as a conference, waiting for Baylor to eventually return to the fold, but I would bet that there would be an immediate renegotiation of the existing t.v. package that would reduce the amount that each team would share.

The least damaging way to approach this from the NCAA's angle would be to ban Art Briles from coaching NCAA college football for 10 years, remove 15 scholarships per year from Baylor for the next 5 years, issue a 5 year bowl ban (window dressing) and issue an opinion that recommends (or maybe requires, though they have no actual legal standing to do so) that Baylor pay damages to the victims of this abuse.

I'll be shocked if the NCAA issues the actual death penalty to Baylor. It has too much of a negative effect on too many other parties who had nothing to do with the situation.

It will be interesting to watch. I think the key is Title IX which I don't think has ever been tested to this degree. Title IX is a legal matter, not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA. What the NCAA might not be willing to do, the Courts might do for them. I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that this is unprecedented, so we really don't know.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

It will be interesting to watch. I think the key is Title IX which I don't think has ever been tested to this degree. Title IX is a legal matter, not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA. What the NCAA might not be willing to do, the Courts might do for them. I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that this is unprecedented, so we really don't know.

I think it all hinges on whether the NCAA chooses to issue the death penalty. If they do, it could potentially have a huge impact on a lot of schools, which is probably why some feel that Baylor won't get the death penalty...even though a lot of folks are up in arms over this whole thing, and rightfully so.

It would be a lot easier for the NCAA to do some of the things that I suggested above and not do something that might bring about sweeping change that effects so many other schools.

[kodiakisland]

Baylor fans don't care. Enrollment is up. Football is King in Texas.

[Cinco de Hogo]

So ya'll think the NCAA is still mad at Penn State?  Baylor looks like a likely candidate to pay the full price that Ped State got out of.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

So ya'll think the NCAA is still mad at Penn State?  Baylor looks like a likely candidate to pay the full price that Ped State got out of.

I don't think that anyone thinks that PSU has anything to do with this. More at stake here than there was with Penn St. Could negatively effect an entire conference, not just one school.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

The NCAA's decision on whether to give Baylor the death penalty or not......should not be altered by what would happen to the B12 conference.  If they don't give Baylor the death penalty for what they have done, would be hard to see how any school in the future would receive it.  Every school (in a major conference)  from now on, would know that the death penalty, is really not going to be on the table.... no matter what they have done. 

[bennyl08]

I think it all hinges on whether the NCAA chooses to issue the death penalty. If they do, it could potentially have a huge impact on a lot of schools, which is probably why some feel that Baylor won't get the death penalty...even though a lot of folks are up in arms over this whole thing, and rightfully so.

It would be a lot easier for the NCAA to do some of the things that I suggested above and not do something that might bring about sweeping change that effects so many other schools.

Not saying that your posts don't accurately reflect the NCAA's thought process.

However, that same thought process is exactly the reason Baylor got into the mess in the first place. I.e. We can't punish the players (university/team) too much because it will put too much of a burden on the other players and coaches and boosters (other big 12 schools and other conferences).

[Hawg414]

i think it was the 30 for 30 on SMU that included a quote, regarding the aftermath of the SMU death penalty, that basically said something like it has been said the NCAA will never again issue a death penalty to a school bc of the overwhelming destruction it causes a program. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Not saying that your posts don't accurately reflect the NCAA's thought process.

However, that same thought process is exactly the reason Baylor got into the mess in the first place. I.e. We can't punish the players (university/team) too much because it will put too much of a burden on the other players and coaches and boosters (other big 12 schools and other conferences).

I'm not saying that the thought process is right (in terms of right and wrong), I'm just saying that this might be something they consider before leveling any particular degree of punishment to Baylor.

Having grown up with Baylor in the old SWC it just sounds odd to be talking about Baylor having done anything that would merit consideration for the death penalty. For so long of a time, they were just a good Baptist school that played AT football and were mostly an afterthought (apologies to Grant Teaff) who could occasionally rise up and produce an upset.

Now here they are at the epicenter of something that has given the school and their program a black eye that will be associated with that name (Baylor) for a long time, and that could be responsible for having altered the college football conference landscape.

[DeltaBoy]

Baylor needs a major house cleaning and instead of trying to railroad so many from Twin peaks shootout they should focus on prosecuting some Baylor Football Players.

[Inhogswetrust]

Penn State recovered and so will Baylor. For Christ's sake the head coach's head rolled as well as the University president, and the A.D.. That's pretty serious stuff there already.

Unbelivable. Three lose their job and you want to downplay what happened. Try rationalizing that to the young women assaulted and their families.

[12247]

One thing not mentioned on here is that a huge group of football players may find themselves facing rape charges in Court.

Often, many things that are spoken cannot be proven in the Court of Law. If even a portion of this is proven, the Baylor football program should be shut down for 3 years and all players allowed to finish out the school year courtesy of Baylor University unless proven to be a part of the rape situation.  Players should be  able to immediately transfer and every FCS nd FBS school should be allowed to take up to 2 Baylor players and add them to their program notwithstanding the 25 per year and 85 total rule.

Penn State should have been closed for 3 years too.  Even a 15 year old Kid knows this type stuff is to be reported and completely checked out and coaches, administrators absolutely know as does law enforcement.  The coaches, administrators, and any law enforcement personnel found to have known and not acted should be brought to justice. 

Honestly, any human old enough to attend college would know this was wrong.  If you knew and didn't report, you are equally guilty under the law.  Use the damn law.  And this includes any female, if any, that might lie about their involvement.  It is time to kick some ass to stop this type action in college sports.

[hog.goblin]

Art Briles, former college football coach.  Has a nice ring to it.  I hope it sticks.

[Razorbackers]

If Penn State can do what so many in that program did and not get the death penalty, then Baylor won't get it either. They may deserve it, but they won't get it.

PSU's crimes, while heinous and certainly warranting a death penalty as well, were committed by coaches and admins.

Baylor's entire culture, from BoR to HC to players, is toxic and criminal.

I think Baylor might be worse off in this moment than PSU was, because PSU had zero players involved to my knowledge.

[kodiakisland]

Baylor just can't help themselves.
The culture down there is bad and they just keep bringing more in.

Baylor has fired newly hired assistant strength coach Brandon Washington after he was arrested in a Waco prostitution sting.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/18635053/baylor-assistant-strength-coach-brandon-washington-fired-solicitation-charge

[Tortfeasor]

Baylor just can't help themselves.
The culture down there is bad and they just keep bringing more in.

You can't make this stuff up. Just wow!

[Razorbackers]

to the ground, i say!

[Pork Twain]

Burn it down

[nchogg]

One thing not mentioned on here is that a huge group of football players may find themselves facing rape charges in Court.

Often, many things that are spoken cannot be proven in the Court of Law. If even a portion of this is proven, the Baylor football program should be shut down for 3 years and all players allowed to finish out the school year courtesy of Baylor University unless proven to be a part of the rape situation.  Players should be  able to immediately transfer and every FCS nd FBS school should be allowed to take up to 2 Baylor players and add them to their program notwithstanding the 25 per year and 85 total rule.


Penn State should have been closed for 3 years too.  Even a 15 year old Kid knows this type stuff is to be reported and completely checked out and coaches, administrators absolutely know as does law enforcement.  The coaches, administrators, and any law enforcement personnel found to have known and not acted should be brought to justice. 

Honestly, any human old enough to attend college would know this was wrong.  If you knew and didn't report, you are equally guilty under the law.  Use the damn law.  And this includes any female, if any, that might lie about their involvement.  It is time to kick some ass to stop this type action in college sports.

You also have to look at todays culture in colleges. It was much different when we were young.

[Razorbackers]

You also have to look at todays culture in colleges. It was much different when we were young.

Yeah, rapes went massively under reported.

[kodiakisland]

Yeah, rapes went massively under reported.

And domestic violence was basically thought OK as long as it stayed in the home.

[Hogs958]

shame shame

[sickboy]

Baylor just can't help themselves.
The culture down there is bad and they just keep bringing more in.

The heck is in the water down there? That place has got some bad mojo.

[JethroB.]

I think that if the NCAA does decide to issue the death penalty to Baylor, it could present a number of scenarios.

One would be the NCAA helping the Big 12 to expand more immediately (allowing teams in other lesser conferences to join almost immediately). But if that happens, it is going to have a negative effect on a lot of other teams schedules beyond just the Big 12. So how likely is that to occur?

Another scenario would be allowing everyone to go find a new conference home on their own and abandon the Big 12, and that would be even more problematic, especially for teams like Texas Tech, K-State and Iowa State and Kansas perhaps to a lesser extent. So probably not an option.

But the t.v. deal would be the part that could really hurt the Big 12 after all of these years of stalling in terms of expansion. I guess they could continue to exist with just 9 teams as a conference, waiting for Baylor to eventually return to the fold, but I would bet that there would be an immediate renegotiation of the existing t.v. package that would reduce the amount that each team would share.

The least damaging way to approach this from the NCAA's angle would be to ban Art Briles from coaching NCAA college football for 10 years, remove 15 scholarships per year from Baylor for the next 5 years, issue a 5 year bowl ban (window dressing) and issue an opinion that recommends (or maybe requires, though they have no actual legal standing to do so) that Baylor pay damages to the victims of this abuse.

I'll be shocked if the NCAA issues the actual death penalty to Baylor. It has too much of a negative effect on too many other parties who had nothing to do with the situation.

They seem to not want to impose the death penalty anymore. I wonder if it is because of how damaging it was to SMU even years after.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

They seem to not want to impose the death penalty anymore. I wonder if it is because of how damaging it was to SMU even years after.

Since when are we so concerned about how far we will set back a program that is so dirty it needs to be eliminated?  Okay, so SMU isn't what it was before the death penalty.  THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR BEING SO DIRTY!  It should be a deterrent to other slime ball programs - like Baylor.  If it doesn't deter them, they should get it too.

[nchogg]

Yeah, rapes went massively under reported.

You are correct about that. Girls were told it was their fault for getting themselves in that situation.

[EastexHawg]

I disagree. At this level... it transcends not acting in order to protect the players. The program was blatantly breaking the law, not just NCAA rules, egregiously, to win football games. I'm sorry, but let the players transfer without penalty and deal with the program. At this point, it's not about the players. And the fact that Baylor was able to sign "good eggs" among the bad ones... should not protect it from how blatantly and grossly they broke the law and the spirit of NCAA competition.

"The program" isn't a living being that makes decisions and carries out acts.  People within it did that.  Punish everyone responsible to the full extent of the law.  I get the outrage, but exacting vengeance on people who aren't guilty of anything, or on the university as a whole, doesn't serve any real purpose except to give people who are angry satisfaction. 

[Jackrabbit Hog]

"The program" isn't a living being that makes decisions and carries out acts.  People within it did that.  Punish everyone responsible to the full extent of the law.  I get the outrage, but exacting vengeance on people who aren't guilty of anything, or on the university as a whole, doesn't serve any real purpose except to give people who are angry satisfaction.

Using that reasoning a school should never be penalized by the NCAA.  No probation or anything like that.  The problem as I see it is that when the outlaw attitude has permeated the entire administration (as it certainly seemed to have done in Baylor's case), how do you know who to punish and who to ignore?  Folks got fired in the wake of Briles being let go and Starr being pushed out, but we're still hearing now about bad stuff going on from coaches and administrators that didn't get fired.  To me that's strong evidence of a culture, and that justifies punishing "the program."

[nationwish]

"The program" isn't a living being that makes decisions and carries out acts.  People within it did that.  Punish everyone responsible to the full extent of the law.  I get the outrage, but exacting vengeance on people who aren't guilty of anything, or on the university as a whole, doesn't serve any real purpose except to give people who are angry satisfaction.

You have to punish the institution. If you only punish individuals, rather than the program for which they are acting as agents, you remove a huge disincentive to follow the rules. It's too easy to go from actively breaking rules yourself to allowing rules to be broken by someone else and just not doing anything about it, then cutting ties when those actions are discovered by outside parties.

Particularly in the case of Baylor, it seems to me that everyone was willing to accept breaking rules in order to win. From the regents all the way to the fans, the entire point of a university in general and a Christian university in particular were secondary to winning a game.

Why would you force yourself to find out exactly who knew what and when, and then especially their motivations, when all of that is nearly impossible to do? They were agents of the university, and therefore the institution has responsibility. If a manager in a company does something to someone, it doesn't matter that the owner didn't know it happened, the company is still liable because of the agency of their manager. Why would this be different?

[PonderinHog]

My advice to all the Baylor fans is to lie back and enjoy it.

[pigture perfect]

It's a social issue of how accountable are we if we just allow it to happen? We have become so non concerned about people's actions that we turn our backs on things that need to stop. In our society we should be able to speak up and say things are wrong and bring attention to it. In this case it's a guilt because in inaction. The whole place should be punished.

[EastexHawg]

Penn State recovered and so will Baylor. For Christ's sake the head coach's head rolled as well as the University president, and the A.D.. That's pretty serious stuff there already.

Exactly.  The only way to punish people who cheat in recruiting is to put the school on probation...because giving an 18-20 year old cash or a plane ticket isn't illegal.  In this case if players can be proven to have committed rape they will be sent to the penitentiary.  Not to mention that the administrators have already been fired

As was the case with Penn State, this is a criminal justice matter, not an NCAA infractions case. 

[EastexHawg]

Let's remember what came to light when a court ordered the release of internal NCAA documents related to the Penn State case.  The NCAA knew they didn't really have jurisdiction in that situation, either.

"We could try to assert jurisdiction on this issue and may be successful but it'd be a stretch," wrote former NCAA Vice President of Enforcement Julie Roe Lach in an email on July 14, 10 days before the NCAA's sanctions were announced. "I characterized our approach to PSU as a bluff when talking to Mark (Emmert) yesterday afternoon after the call. He basically agreed b/c if we make this an enforcement issue, we may win the immediate battle but lose the war when the COI (Committee on Infractions) has to rule

The emails also revealed that NCAA officials knew they had no jurisdictional claim over Penn State, but chose to act anyway with the assumption that the university would comply based on fear of embarrassment.

"I know we are banking on the fact the school is so embarrassed they will do anything, but I am not sure about that, and no confidence conference or other members will agree to that," NCAA Vice President of Academic and Membership Affairs Kevin Lennon wrote in an email. "This will force the jurisdictional issue that we really don't have a great answer to that one ... "

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/18531861/

[nationwish]

To say this isn't an NCAA issue is just insane to me. Everyone agrees that the NCAA can punish schools for recruiting violations because those give teams an unfair advantage, yet many say the NCAA has no business if the school tries to cover up criminal activity. In case you haven't realized, they do that because it gives them an unfair advantage. Of course the NCAA should be able to punish schools in these cases.

[nationwish]

And again, I'm stressing that this isn't just common criminal behavior. It's not at all uncommon for college players to be arrested for DWI, theft, or even assault. I don't think anyone expects the NCAA to step in there. That's not what is happening here, though. As soon as the coaches, and especially the administration, steps in to shield players from the consequences of criminal acts, at the expense of other students, I don't think that the NCAA should have jurisdiction there, but they should have an obligation to step up with some sort of sanctions.

[DeltaBoy]

It doesn't seem to bother much other than this recruiting class.  They are still getting students and conferences left and right.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

It doesn't seem to bother much other than this recruiting class.  They are still getting students and conferences left and right.

Nothing has really happened to them yet. Impose penalties that hurt them (school/athletic program) hard financially.  Money usually gets the attention of the power people, to make necessary changes.

[DLUXHOG]

Betcha...... that they get the death penalty.......   wait & see......    NCAA probably thinks, "two private Texas schools should send a message"......