Seriously, how can the basketball program be fixed?

[Toad Suck Pork]

Don't mistake me for walking lock-n-step with you on this one.  I believe that the APR is handcuffing Pel's progress, but it's not that I am riding on Pel's welcome wagon any longer, either.  I believe it will become too much for him and he'll leave at the end of the season.  We'll see how many of you are still screaming and throwing temper tantrums when the UA makes its next hire.

You are predicting the Pel will resign on his own doing???  Now that is the most bold prediction I have seen yet.  I totally disagree but +1 anyway.

[rude1]

Did all of those examples you listed have the same problems Arkansas did? What were their situations like when they made a coaching change?  West Virginia is the closest I see with losing 80% of it's scoring. I would be interested to see how many players that was. If they still had players that contributed on the court, even if it was just substantial minutes, that is good to come in the next year with. Arkansas lost 9 players (counting PB just before the season started). SW and MW were the only two real contributors that had played substantial minutes to fall back on. We all have seen that SW can't tie the shoe laces of the under classmen that we have. He has helped out at the PG position this year as far as ball handling, but he still can't produce on the scoreboard like he is needed too. MW can contribute, but he needs a good PG to help him out. It shouldn't be that way, but apparently, it is with him. I am not saying that CJP doesn't have a hand in his own mess, because he does. He took chances on some kids and they didn't work. I don't fault him for trying to get some kids to start winning, because that is what the fans want.
In those examples you listed they aren't faster yet. We are just now in "season 3" of his contract. I doubt any of those had a rebuilding project like we did though.

Jeez you guys will forever move the bar. You asked for examples, and someone finally takes the time and does the research and comes back with several good examples. Now unless the examples situations are like this one it doesn't count. This is why I didn't bother to do the research, because the apologist will always just retreat to a different position.

[thirtythree]

The examples were supposed to be ones where the programs were in worse situations than arkansas is in and built faster. I appreciate the effort but those examples dont fit what was said.

[rude1]

The examples were supposed to be ones where the programs were in worse situations than arkansas is in and built faster. I appreciate the effort but those examples dont fit what was said.

LMAO. Yeah Ok. What situation could possibly worse than the one Pelphrey has created here? That alone makes it impossible to come up with.

The situation that Pelphrey took over was not as bad as he has made it. He had an APR problem, and he had a year to replace players. He took that situation and through mismanagement has made the program historically bad.

[WilsonHog]

There really isn't much way around this method, which works no matter what type of organization you're in.

It's not all about you. Surround yourself with top people. When things go right, give them the credit. When things go bad, you accept the responsibility.

[want2be]

There really isn't much way around this method, which works no matter what type of organization you're in.

It's not all about you. Surround yourself with top people. When things go right, give them the credit. When things go bad, you accept the responsibility.

At this point, these principals fall into the hands of Jeff Long.....In my opinion he is giving much more credit than what is due.........but he remains polictically correct, which will keep the wool many a fan's eyes.

[hogluv]

It is in Long's hands. I think we could get a much better coach on the hill than Pel, but the only protest we can truly make is quit going to games.

[RedSatinHog]

You are predicting the Pel will resign on his own doing???  Now that is the most bold prediction I have seen yet.  I totally disagree but +1 anyway.

I say that because I believe he will realize that even if he's here next year, the power brokers who make the decisions about athletic department hires and fires are no longer behind him and are just waiting until the time is more advantageous to dismiss him.  Staying here as a lame duck while knowing he's going to be canned anyway will be more than he can stand the thought of, and he will salvage whatever shred of dignity he can and leave on his own.  It wouldn't at all surprise me to see him take another job at another mid-major shortly afterward.

All of this is assuming that the UA doesn't buy him out and fire him to begin with.  Whichever is the case, neither would surprise me at all.  The only thing which would surprise me would be John Pelphrey still being our head coach next year.

[RedSatinHog]

It is in Long's hands. I think we could get a much better coach on the hill than Pel, but the only protest we can truly make is quit going to games.

Something tells me that is not the approach you took when Hootie was our FB coach.

[hogluv]

Sitting around hoping for a miracle is not the answer. You have to start making changes

[jamesmills]

Thirtythree  What is your plan for the program  and how do we get there?

[arrow30]

Hire Mike Anderson !  :razorback:

[arrow30]

Hire Mike Anderson !  :razorback:

Why would mike anderson want to come back here to a school that would not give him the job in the first place

[RedSatinHog]

Arrow30, try typing OUTSIDE the quote brackets boxes next time.  ^^^

[thirtythree]

Thirtythree  What is your plan for the program  and how do we get there?

First CJP needs to have all his players back (whether it be from suspension or injury). There is no doubt in my mind that if we had our 'true PG' we would not be in this current position.JMO.

Second, no matter what, he needs to improve in the conference season, Nothing that has happened now will have an impact on anything due to all the problems early in the season. Basically it is the higher ups (according to some people in here) that placed us in the short handed situations we were in (I'm talking about the discipline as the players were the ones who got themselves there). Saying that to say this: CJP won't be held accountable for decisions he didn't make that crippled the program from a player availability stand point. That would be a PR nightmare.

Third, he has got to get recruits here to go with the current players. He has 3 good ones signed already (I don't care what people say about top 50 this and top 100 that or even the stars). He has some very good ones showing interest for the 2011 class that could really help this program. I hope it happens, but we'll see what happens.

The APR issue is a big concern for me. Aside from the hint of financial distress we will be in APR trouble if we change coaches even after this season. To put yourself in a possible post season ban to get rid of a coach doesn't make much sense to me, but it does others for some reason.

With everything that I have said. Here goes. He has to show progress this year. We have seen the guys play hard and there are improvements, although some are very minimal improvements. There have been digressions. I account most of that to a lack of our "true PG". If there is improvement he gets next year. If he doesn't get us to post season play next year with everything I have laid out we need to search for a new coach. By that time the APR issues shouldn't be as dreadful and we wouldn't take much of a hit.

This has been my stance the whole time and I have not wavered.

[HogInThaGrove]

This has been my stance the whole time and I have not wavered.

Yep.  That's true.  And a very reasonable position it is sir.  It is also my position. I deem next year to be make it or break it for Pel.  And I've only missed 2 home games this year, so don't give me any crap. 

[Porkem]

I'm going to bet heavy on the Longhorns covering the spread Tuesday night....whatever it is.  Texas is going to beat us like a drum.

The Hogs are going to come out and play with unbelieveable energy and enthusiasm early.  They will keep it between 8 and 14 until about halftime.

Texas will come out the second half and run us out of our own gym.  I'm going to go to that game and pull for us to lose by the point spread.

Some people might say "How can you be a Hog fan and pull for us to lose?"  The answer...we're going to lose.  I'm a gambler.  I am always looking for lines to cash in on.  This is one of them. 

So...if we're going to lose, might as well be by enough points to win the bet and get paid.  If the Hogs are going to keep coming out and stinking up the gym....might as well expect it and get paid.  Plus...it will infuriate the fanbase even further...which is what must happen...in order to make a coaching change.

[Lil Wayne]

Hire Mike Anderson !  :razorback:

Why would mike anderson want to come back here to a school that would not give him the job in the first place

maybe he forgot about that


:razorback:

[waphill]

Every single example you cited happened in 5-6 years, and all of them took place in a time when the APR wasn't in effect.  That single factor is HUGE in the area of rebuilding a program.  Pel is in year #3.

All of those examples were in E8 or F4 in the third year. Call me crazy, but I think we're going to fall a bit short of the E8 this year.


Morgan State
'05-'06    4-26
fired Beard, hired Bozeman
'06-'07    13-18
'07-'08    22-11
'08-'09    23-12
'09-'10    8-5 so far, and better than the hogs

[hogluv]

Why has no one picked up Steve Lavin as a coach? I want Pel out the door. Rick Schaffer keeps saying "No other coaches are knocking on our door" Of course they are not knocking on our door because they would lose their jobs they have at present. If we are happy where we work and another company comes to us with a substantial raise MOST people take it.

[forrest city joe]

First CJP needs to have all his players back (whether it be from suspension or injury). There is no doubt in my mind that if we had our 'true PG' we would not be in this current position.JMO.

Second, no matter what, he needs to improve in the conference season, Nothing that has happened now will have an impact on anything due to all the problems early in the season. Basically it is the higher ups (according to some people in here) that placed us in the short handed situations we were in (I'm talking about the discipline as the players were the ones who got themselves there). Saying that to say this: CJP won't be held accountable for decisions he didn't make that crippled the program from a player availability stand point. That would be a PR nightmare.

Third, he has got to get recruits here to go with the current players. He has 3 good ones signed already (I don't care what people say about top 50 this and top 100 that or even the stars). He has some very good ones showing interest for the 2011 class that could really help this program. I hope it happens, but we'll see what happens.

The APR issue is a big concern for me. Aside from the hint of financial distress we will be in APR trouble if we change coaches even after this season. To put yourself in a possible post season ban to get rid of a coach doesn't make much sense to me, but it does others for some reason.

With everything that I have said. Here goes. He has to show progress this year. We have seen the guys play hard and there are improvements, although some are very minimal improvements. There have been digressions. I account most of that to a lack of our "true PG". If there is improvement he gets next year. If he doesn't get us to post season play next year with everything I have laid out we need to search for a new coach. By that time the APR issues shouldn't be as dreadful and we wouldn't take much of a hit.

This has been my stance the whole time and I have not wavered.

No! no next year.we have wasted to much time on this loser already. get him out of here now!

[RedSatinHog]

All of those examples were in E8 or F4 in the third year. Call me crazy, but I think we're going to fall a bit short of the E8 this year.


Morgan State
'05-'06    4-26
fired Beard, hired Bozeman
'06-'07    13-18
'07-'08    22-11
'08-'09    23-12
'09-'10    8-5 so far, and better than the hogs

And in each of the cases you cited (including the most recent one above), NONE of them were affected by the APR which is now in place.  NONE of them were facing losing schollies by releasing current players on the roster.

No matter how you try to spin the "it can be done in short order" argument, it won't happen with the problem we are now faced with in regard to the APR requirements.

I'm no longer honking for Pelphrey here, just saying that the rebuild on this program is going to take longer than 2-3 years, especially when one considers that some of the players who play out their eligibility won't graduate, and we lose available schollies as a result of it.  If the current situation is proving anything to any of us, it ought to be crystal clear that even 2-3 years is too much for Razorbacks fans to be patient enough to endure.  Perhaps one could make the argument that it wouldn't be as bad if the team was showing some sign of progress, but looking back at how quickly much of that fan base turned on Pel last season after beating OU and Texas, I could clearly make a solid case to the contrary.

[RedSatinHog]

First CJP needs to have all his players back (whether it be from suspension or injury). There is no doubt in my mind that if we had our 'true PG' we would not be in this current position.JMO.

You mean that same "true PG" which led us to a 2-14 record in the SEC last season?

[forrest city joe]

Back to this thread question( how do we fix this program)it's simple.FIRE PEL! thats the first step. and go out and geat us a good sound coach thats knows how to coach and recruit. and someone who knows what he's doing. it's very simple.

[RedSatinHog]

Back to this thread question( how do we fix this program)it's simple.FIRE PEL! thats the first step. and go out and geat us a good sound coach thats knows how to coach and recruit. and someone who knows what he's doing. it's very simple.

And after your boy Mike Anderson turns us down, then what?  Who do YOU hire Joe?

[forrest city joe]

And after your boy Mike Anderson turns us down, then what?  Who do YOU hire Joe?

I would love to get Mike. but make no mistaske about it. i will take anyone over the mess(Pel) we have now. he may be the worst coach i have ever seen. he flatout stinks!

[RedSatinHog]

I would love to get Mike. but make no mistaske about it. i will take anyone over the mess(Pel) we have now. he may be the worst coach i have ever seen. he flatout stinks!

So we rehire Stan Heath and you're okay with that?

I guess my point is that if we're going to do this, we need to do it the right way.  We need to have a surefire path of who we're going to hire before we pull the plug on Pel.  If not, we're going to be right back where we were 3 years ago.

[forrest city joe]

So we rehire Stan Heath and you're okay with that?

I guess my point is that if we're going to do this, we need to do it the right way.  We need to have a surefire path of who we're going to hire before we pull the plug on Pel.  If not, we're going to be right back where we were 3 years ago.

You have got to be kidding me! this program right now is worse than it was under Stan. Pel is worse than  than Stan. and that says a lot of how bad he is. let me say it again.Pel has to be fired. i hope we get Mike. but if we dont, i will take a donkey over this loser.

[RedSatinHog]

You have got to be kidding me! this program right now is worse than it was under Stan. Pel is worse than  than Stan. and that says a lot of how bas he is. let me say it again.Pel hasa to be fired. i hope we get Mike. but if we dont, i will take a donkey over this loser.

In all fairness to Pel, many of the dominos began falling when Stan was here, and that is what got him fired.  NONE of the players Stan Heath left behind ever graduated, including a team which consisted of 5 seniors.  Sorry, Joe, that is what is currently a big part of what is drilling our APR into the ground.  It's not saying that I want Pel here for another 1-3 years, but it is naive and reckless to look at it any other way.

[forrest city joe]

In all fairness to Pel, many of the dominos began falling when Stan was here, and that is what got him fired.  NONE of the players Stan Heath left behind ever graduated, including a team which consisted of 5 seniors.  Sorry, Joe, that is what is currently a big part of what is drilling our APR into the ground.  It's not saying that I want Pel here for another 1-3 years, but it is naive and reckless to look at it any other way.

What is reckless is to keep going down the same road with this loser. this guy is flatout pitiful.the damage he has done in going on 3 years is flatout sickening.FIRE HIM JEFF LONG!

[RedSatinHog]

What is reckless is to keep going down the same road with this loser. this guy is flatout pitiful.the damage he has done in going on 3 years is flatout sickening.FIRE HIM JEFF LONG!

I hear what you're saying, and for the most part agree with you, but we have to do this the right way.  Just firing a coach without a clearly defined path for who we're going to hire next and why they're the best choice for the job is what got us where we are right now.  I believe Pel will quit, but that is just my opinion.

Anyway, gotta head off to work.  I'll return this evening for another round of "Fussin' with FCJ".

[GS99]

NONE of the players Stan Heath left behind ever graduated, including a team which consisted of 5 seniors. 

About the time Nolan's 0% graduation rate was first exposed, he won the SEC tournament and was given a contract extension.

A couple years later when Nolan had 3 players graduating that semester but had a horrible .500 record, he was fired right before senior day.

So, why would Stan Heath think that getting players to graduate was a priority?

[hogluv]

For some reason fans in Arkansas have no faith that ANYONE worth a crap would want to come here so we just stay put in fear it will get worse. Guess what fans there is a chance it can get worse but fear will never make it better. Everyone wants to say we are NO KENTUCKY, they are right but we are not NJIT either.

Ohio State was ok in basketball in the early 90's with Jimmy Jackson but they hired a coach that gets GREAT recruits and makes them competitive. I guess Ohio State should be ashamed of themselves since they are NO KENTUCKY!!! Shame on you Ohio State for wanting to better yourselves.

[GS99]

Just firing a coach without a clearly defined path for who we're going to hire next and why they're the best choice for the job is what got us where we are right now. 

They had a plan - hire Billy Gillispie.  They supposedly had reached a deal with him.  Unfortunately, unlike the casual fan, they had no idea that Tubby Smith was fixing to leave KY and Gillispie was after that job.

[Porkatarian]

First CJP needs to have all his players back (whether it be from suspension or injury). There is no doubt in my mind that if we had our 'true PG' we would not be in this current position.JMO.

Don't forget we went 2-14 in SEC play with our "true PG" running the show last season.


Porkatarian out...

[thirtythree]

Don't forget we went 2-14 in SEC play with our "true PG" running the show last season.


Porkatarian out...

Your are very correct sir. No disputing that fact at all. However, I think there are better scoring options on this team vs. last years team. We all seen MW flourish last year with CF driving into the lane. RC had a decent year, but that was about it. We didn't have another scoring option that CF could dish of too. Now, insert Powell and Farmer into the line up with RC, MW and (hopefully) CF. I see more options to dish the ball instead of driving to the hole and MW being the ONLY option down low and (maybe) passing around traffic to RC. CF was a true freshman last year that had great numbers and was thought of as one of the best in the country. While he totally screwed, not only himself up, but his team as well I still think he could help this team. I would like to think that he has improved (on the court) from last year to this year. That's just my opinion.

[GS99]

CF was a true freshman last year

Sorta.  CF is older than Patrick Beverly, Kevin Durant, and Russel Westbrook, among others.  He spent an extra year in school then a year at prep school.  A true freshman as far as college experience, however.

[Tomhog™]

MW disappeared in conference play last year, didn't he?

[rude1]

And in each of the cases you cited (including the most recent one above), NONE of them were affected by the APR which is now in place.  NONE of them were facing losing schollies by releasing current players on the roster.

No matter how you try to spin the "it can be done in short order" argument, it won't happen with the problem we are now faced with in regard to the APR requirements.

I'm no longer honking for Pelphrey here, just saying that the rebuild on this program is going to take longer than 2-3 years, especially when one considers that some of the players who play out their eligibility won't graduate, and we lose available schollies as a result of it.  If the current situation is proving anything to any of us, it ought to be crystal clear that even 2-3 years is too much for Razorbacks fans to be patient enough to endure.  Perhaps one could make the argument that it wouldn't be as bad if the team was showing some sign of progress, but looking back at how quickly much of that fan base turned on Pel last season after beating OU and Texas, I could clearly make a solid case to the contrary.

Why is it some want to forget that we are in the position of not being able to release players  because Pelphrey took over a program with an APR problem, and in a situation where he needed to be careful with each recruit, he came in with reckless abandon gambling on damn near a whole class of players and compounded the problem. Now some are suggesting rewarding him with more time for doing that. Outrageous.

And the idea that being banned from post season play because of the APR is a reason to hold him doesn't hold water either. With him you aren't going to post season play anyway.

[RedSatinHog]

Why is it some want to forget that we are in the position of not being able to release players  because Pelphrey took over a program with an APR problem, and in a situation where he needed to be careful with each recruit, he came in with reckless abandon gambling on damn near a whole class of players and compounded the problem. Now some are suggesting rewarding him with more time for doing that. Outrageous.

Pel didn't have much of a choice.  Not too many SEC-level recruits are available at that time of year, especially for a coach whose entire HC experience at that time was at a Sun Belt school.

And the idea that being banned from post season play because of the APR is a reason to hold him doesn't hold water either. With him you aren't going to post season play anyway.

Take a serious look at Hawg Advocate's responses on a few of the other threads with similar subject matter and you should be able to see it in a totally different light.  I'm not saying that I'm back to wanting Pel to stay here, but what he is saying does make a lot of sense in light of what Pel has been forced to deal with since he got here.

Whether or not Pel would ever succeed here is arguable.  Maybe not when you look at the hapless way this team is playing, as well as the way last year's team finished out, but if you look at the fact that he's the only UA coach in the last 10 years to win an NCAAT game, as well as how well last year's team played right until they lost Marcus Monk.  The wheels officially came off after that.

[RedSatinHog]

They had a plan - hire Billy Gillispie.  They supposedly had reached a deal with him.  Unfortunately, unlike the casual fan, they had no idea that Tubby Smith was fixing to leave KY and Gillispie was after that job.

They had no idea?  The rumors and predictions of Smith's departure from had been making their rounds for weeks before we canned Heath.

We would have been foolish to hire Gillispie.  I can just see him right now, running down the hallway talking on his cell phone while trying to get away from answering a simple question from Bill Vickery.  Gillispie turned out to be a joke anyway.

[Breems]

I can just see him right now, running down the hallway talking on his cell phone...

I thought it was pretending to talk on his cell phone?

[RedSatinHog]

About the time Nolan's 0% graduation rate was first exposed, he won the SEC tournament and was given a contract extension.

A couple years later when Nolan had 3 players graduating that semester but had a horrible .500 record, he was fired right before senior day.

So, why would Stan Heath think that getting players to graduate was a priority?

You're making my point.  Neither coach had to deal with the serious issue of players succeeding academically, and the results of it can be seen now, especially since JP had to begin dealing with the reality of having his players excelling in both the classroom and on the hardwoods.  His first year, he was handed 5-6 players who would count against that rating, whom he hadn't recruited, and was not responsible for the academic progress of for 3 of their 4 years on the hill.

This APR advent is putting a restriction to a rebuilding process which would have been difficult enough on its own.  Having to start from scratch with this ordeal thrown on top of it made things much more difficult than it would have been otherwise.

[RedSatinHog]

I thought it was pretending to talk on his cell phone?

Whatever the case was, he looked mighty stupid running from reporters.  Not that it differed from the rest of his stay in Lexington.

[rude1]

Pel didn't have much of a choice.  Not too many SEC-level recruits are available at that time of year, especially for a coach whose entire HC experience at that time was at a Sun Belt school.

Take a serious look at Hawg Advocate's responses on a few of the other threads with similar subject matter and you should be able to see it in a totally different light.  I'm not saying that I'm back to wanting Pel to stay here, but what he is saying does make a lot of sense in light of what Pel has been forced to deal with since he got here.

Whether or not Pel would ever succeed here is arguable.  Maybe not when you look at the hapless way this team is playing, as well as the way last year's team finished out, but if you look at the fact that he's the only UA coach in the last 10 years to win an NCAAT game, as well as how well last year's team played right until they lost Marcus Monk.  The wheels officially came off after that.

He had a year with no pressure to put his class together. So I am not understanding this idea he was "forced". He knew he was dealing with an APR issue, and yet instead of playing it safe and looking for quality kids to start the build with, he wildly gambles on every risk he could find, losing five of 6 in his first class. That is all mismanagement on his part and not forced on him. He should not be given a pass because of a situation he handled in the worst way.

[RedSatinHog]

He had a year with no pressure to put his class together. So I am not understanding this idea he was "forced". He knew he was dealing with an APR issue, and yet instead of playing it safe and looking for quality kids to start the build with, he wildly gambles on every risk he could find, losing five of 6 in his first class. That is all mismanagement on his part and not forced on him. He should not be given a pass because of a situation he handled in the worst way.

You're not asying anything I haven;t said elsewhere, but something tells me that neither one of us truly knows or understands the problems and/or pressures he was facing behind the scenes.

We were coming off 3 consecutive NCAAT appearances last season.  I agree that I would have rather had him to deal with those problems head on last season, but doing so would likely have cost us a schollie or two when the NCAA released its APR report card.  He was pretty much reduced to putting a band aid over a sucking chest wound and hope it would somehow hold up.