And then what?????

[311Hog]

Must this be rehashed ad infinitum. Look at the 2010-11 rosters. Those teams had better Arkansas skill players than this present team.
The key to Arkansas' better teams. If we produce them we have a good team.

this has always been the case.  Hogs go as the instate talent goes.  If it is NFL caliber we win 10 games, if it is Practice squad we win 8, if it isn't even Canadian level we suffer non bowl seasons.

[Pigsknuckles]

Unless we lose to Coastal Carolina, or New Mexico State,  Bret stays. Move on.

[jst01]

I think a lot of people are finally seeing the answer, but to admit it would ruin their world.

So what is the answer?  B/c there are only a few options IMO. 

Keep a coach for 10+ years and hope he finally figures it out thru learning on the job and stability.
Pay someone (elite recruiter/coach) around $8MM / year and try to change it.
Leave the SEC and go play in a conference where we recruit in the top of that conference and attempt to win that way.

Am I wrong about our options?

[Dominicanhog]

You give these losers too much credit.

That narrative never held water.

yep.. and they are the same idiots that come on Jumpball and talk about how bad that coach is...

[hogsanity]

this has always been the case.  Hogs go as the instate talent goes.  If it is NFL caliber we win 10 games, if it is Practice squad we win 8, if it isn't even Canadian level we suffer non bowl seasons.

And that is what hurts the pride of some fans more than anything. They think Ar HS hometown heroes hung the moon. When you see a Hog roster with 50% or more scholarship players from in state, we are in bad shape. There are not 40+ SEC level players produced in state over a 4 year period.

[Redhogs]

Dude i am not sure where you got my fact as anything for Beliema it has nothing to do with him.  He has underwhelmed during his tenure that record speaks for itself, but please don't try to act like 2010 2011 we were anything more than slightly above our average.

We got hammered by the elite, and won 1 bowl game that we have won before.  Same ground my friend different day.

Don't give a crap if we ever beat Al....give me 10 and 11 win seasons and I would love being average as you put it...oh and being ranked #4 in the country was something i'd take again too. More revisionist history from another Bert lover..enjoy the ****show.

[Gonzo]

BB is gone at the end of the season, and then what, hire another coach and in 5 years when the results are an average of 7-8 wins a year ( which is our average since joining the sec, 25+ seasons ) I guess we will want that guy gone and try someone else?

Oh, and don't forget the new guy will probably be very different in offensive philosophy and will have to try to do that with the ball control type players on campus.

And no, this is not a keep BB thread. It is a why do you expect different results, over time, than any of the other coaches since joining the sec have provided.

BB has to win 10 games this year to average 7 since he arrived.....that 5 year window you're talking about. I think most here would be pretty damn happy with 10 wins this season. I know I would, better than even the optimistic side of my preseason thoughts.


Go Hogs!

[311Hog]

So what is the answer?  B/c there are only a few options IMO. 

Keep a coach for 10+ years and hope he finally figures it out thru learning on the job and stability.
Pay someone (elite recruiter/coach) around $8MM / year and try to change it.
Leave the SEC and go play in a conference where we recruit in the top of that conference and attempt to win that way.

Am I wrong about our options?

IMHO we can't afford much less lure someone of Saban caliber so that is out.

Next option is to continue to play the lottery with various coaches that on paper look like they could work, but the probability on this method is very low especially considering our recruiting footprint.

To me the only true legit option we have is to devote insane resources and effort into building/improving Arkansas High School Football. That is to me the only long term solid foundation type strategy because while we get kids from Texas, Ok, LA and a few other places this teams goes as the instate talent goes.

BUt this option would take a massive amount of time, money, buy in etc.

[hogsanity]

So what is the answer?  B/c there are only a few options IMO. 

Keep a coach for 10+ years and hope he finally figures it out thru learning on the job and stability.
Pay someone (elite recruiter/coach) around $8MM / year and try to change it.
Leave the SEC and go play in a conference where we recruit in the top of that conference and attempt to win that way.

Am I wrong about our options?

I am all for trying option 2, go hire who you think is the best recruiter available ( assuming he will come ) and see if he can take it from 20-25 in recruiting to 10-15. Even though that would still likely be 5-6 in the sec, it would still be quite an improvement.

[311Hog]

Don't give a crap if we ever beat Al....give me 10 and 11 win seasons and I would love being average as you put it...oh and being ranked #4 in the country was something i'd take again too. More revisionist history from another Bert lover..enjoy the ****show.

man you are the only revisionist here, not to mention delusional calling me a bert lover lol, you must be one of those guys that takes any contrary opinion that upsets your apple cart of fallacy and automatically assumes adversarial stance. 

Lets say for your special place Petrino was still here and he had 3 more 10 to 11 win seasons each of which we got our aces hammered by Bama every year and came in 3rd in our own conference and yet again being "just outside" greatness in terms of not making the play off or anything outside of Orlando in terms of bowl games.  You maybe happy but i can promise you others wouldn't be because then they would be crying for why can't we get over the hump and beat bama etc. please god when whens it goin be my time....

[hogsanity]

IMHO we can't afford much less lure someone of Saban caliber so that is out.

Next option is to continue to play the lottery with various coaches that on paper look like they could work, but the probability on this method is very low especially considering our recruiting footprint.

To me the only true legit option we have is to devote insane resources and effort into building/improving Arkansas High School Football. That is to me the only long term solid foundation type strategy because while we get kids from Texas, Ok, LA and a few other places this teams goes as the instate talent goes.

BUt this option would take a massive amount of time, money, buy in etc.

While that would help, we are just demographically disadvantaged. Mississippi has about the same population, yet produces close to 4 times the p5 signees annually. Plus, you are never going to get all the tiny districts to give up their little piece of power to consolidate. Consolidation would help so much more that just athletics. It would provide kids with a much wider variety of classes, better facilities, etc. But then Red Pine might lose their 12 player football team.

[311Hog]

And that is what hurts the pride of some fans more than anything. They think Ar HS hometown heroes hung the moon. When you see a Hog roster with 50% or more scholarship players from in state, we are in bad shape. There are not 40+ SEC level players produced in state over a 4 year period.

i am one of those people i played AR HS football with/against these heros some went on to be actual Hog Football hero's but you are right in that there are far to few in this era of college football to truly change our trajectory

[WilsonHog]

BB is gone at the end of the season, and then what, hire another coach and in 5 years when the results are an average of 7-8 wins a year ( which is our average since joining the sec, 25+ seasons ) I guess we will want that guy gone and try someone else?

Oh, and don't forget the new guy will probably be very different in offensive philosophy and will have to try to do that with the ball control type players on campus.

And no, this is not a keep BB thread. It is a why do you expect different results, over time, than any of the other coaches since joining the sec have provided.

I'm not quite ready to accept that fate. Seems to me to be a loser's mentality.

[leggohogs]

Winning 7 or 8 games a year is what we do. It's losing games to Toledo, blowing countless games we should have won, defense being historically bad and games like Auburn last year that have caused the Bielema backlash. Win the games you are supposed to and be competitive in the losses is not unreasonable.

THIS^^^^^^^

[FineAsSwine]

THIS^^^^^^^

Motion seconded and approved! Sed76 summed it up in a Nutt shell.

[311Hog]

i still don't understand why people can't accept that Toledo won 11 games and were a really good team lol.  I mean there TB is starting for the dang KC Chiefs.

And combine that with the absolute fact our history is littered with games we had no business losing but somehow we did....

[hogsanity]

Don't give a crap if we ever beat Al....give me 10 and 11 win seasons and I would love being average as you put it...oh and being ranked #4 in the country was something i'd take again too. More revisionist history from another Bert lover..enjoy the ****show.

How is someone presenting THE FACTS revisionist?  FAct - Ar won 10 games in 2010. Fact Ar got beaten AT HOME by a Bama team that lost 3 SEC games that season. Fact Ar gave up 60+ to Aub. Fact they finished tied for 2nd in the SECW. Fact they played in the Sugar Bowl for at least 3rd time. Fact 2011 they won 11 games. Fact they got absolutely destroyed by both Bama and LSu and played in the Cotton Bowl for I think the 8th or 9th time.

Now, those are FACTS, nothing revised about them, and no editorialization. Just what the results were.

[Wildhog]

Winning 7 or 8 games a year is what we do. It's losing games to Toledo, blowing countless games we should have won, defense being historically bad and games like Auburn last year that have caused the Bielema backlash. Win the games you are supposed to and be competitive in the losses is not unreasonable.

That's the biggest difference between CBP and CBB.  Petrino won the games he was supposed to win.

[311Hog]

That's the biggest difference between CBP and CBB.  Petrino won the games he was supposed to win.

and to me the other difference is that turns out to be 1 or 2 more games, but still not the "big ones"

Also CBP is believed to have a "special" coaching ability on offense. CBB is just a CEO that is tough and gritty but no real claim to fame with X's and Os or recruiting.

are those 1 or 2 wins worth the assured negativity with letting the guy stay after what he did? eh to me no.

btw i do not think CBB stays much longer providing these results so he better figure something out.  "we are gonna go jet fire coach" "you better go somethun".

[hogsanity]

I'm not quite ready to accept that fate. Seems to me to be a loser's mentality.

Just looking at our program, and really all of college football.

What was the last p5 team that had similar history that suddenly rose up and became a 9+ game a year winner? I guess the answer is Okie St and they did not do it until the last round of conf realignment took Neb and A&m out of the big12.

[jst01]

How is someone presenting THE FACTS revisionist?  FAct - Ar won 10 games in 2010. Fact Ar got beaten AT HOME by a Bama team that lost 3 SEC games that season. Fact Ar gave up 60+ to Aub. Fact they finished tied for 2nd in the SECW. Fact they played in the Sugar Bowl for at least 3rd time. Fact 2011 they won 11 games. Fact they got absolutely destroyed by both Bama and LSu and played in the Cotton Bowl for I think the 8th or 9th time.

Now, those are FACTS, nothing revised about them, and no editorialization. Just what the results were.

true they are all facts, but leaving out additional facts doesn't tell the whole story. Those 2011 Bama and LSU teams played in the National Championship game. Every opponent that faced those teams lost, and every Hog team in the last 30 years would have lost to those teams. Doesn't take away the fact that the season was a huge success compared to the previous 20 years.

[Wildhog]

and to me the other difference is that turns out to be 1 or 2 more games, but still not the "big ones"

Also CBP is believed to have a "special" coaching ability on offense. CBB is just a CEO that is tough and gritty but no real claim to fame with X's and Os or recruiting.

are those 1 or 2 wins worth the assured negativity with letting the guy stay after what he did? eh to me no.

btw i do not think CBB stays much longer providing these results so he better figure something out.  "we are gonna go jet fire coach" "you better go somethun".

I didn't say CBP should have stayed.  Just that he's better than CBB.

[hogsanity]

That's the biggest difference between CBP and CBB.  Petrino won the games he was supposed to win.

Define supposed to win. Are you talking games in which the Hogs were favored? If so, remember the Hogs were a 3 pt dog last weekend at home. They were not supposed to win that game.

[GuvHog]

Don't give a crap if we ever beat Al....give me 10 and 11 win seasons and I would love being average as you put it...oh and being ranked #4 in the country was something i'd take again too. More revisionist history.

Absolutely! I'd take it again in a New York minute.

In 2010, a win over Auburn would have put the Hogs in a tie with Auburn for the SEC West Title with the Hogs winning the tie breaker and going to Atlanta with a top 5 national Ranking and a shot at the national title game (some conveniently forget that Arkansas finished ahead of both Alabama and LSU in the SEC West standings that year).

In 2011, a win over LSU would have vaulted the Hogs to a #2 national ranking and a rematch with Bama in the National Title game.

Some like to ignore just how close the Hogs were to winning it all those 2 years because of their hate for the guy that was the Head Coach back then.

[hogsanity]

true they are all facts, but leaving out additional facts doesn't tell the whole story. Those 2011 Bama and LSU teams played in the National Championship game. Every opponent that faced those teams lost, and every Hog team in the last 30 years would have lost to those teams. Doesn't take away the fact that the season was a huge success compared to the previous 20 years.

who said those seasons were not successful?

[311Hog]

I didn't say CBP should have stayed.  Just that he's better than CBB.

i didnt think you were saying that.  I was just saying that with CBP's gift etc. it still only amounted to a couple more wins a year and still nothing vs bama etc.

I definitely think CBP is better than CBB in terms of x's o's though i believe players like CBB more. One is sleeze bag other is type of guy you want as a friend.

[Redhogs]

man you are the only revisionist here, not to mention delusional calling me a bert lover lol, you must be one of those guys that takes any contrary opinion that upsets your apple cart of fallacy and automatically assumes adversarial stance. 

Lets say for your special place Petrino was still here and he had 3 more 10 to 11 win seasons each of which we got our aces hammered by Bama every year and came in 3rd in our own conference and yet again being "just outside" greatness in terms of not making the play off or anything outside of Orlando in terms of bowl games.  You maybe happy but i can promise you others wouldn't be because then they would be crying for why can't we get over the hump and beat bama etc. please god when whens it goin be my time....

FYI...CBP is long gone and that's not the point...let me help you with comprehension....the point was BP's winning here was far from average by AR. standard as you stated that it was..also by your flawed logic, if we can't get a coach to come in a win a NC, then we should do nothing at all..look, this is a 5 year train wreck, if you don't want to see that then enjoy..because he in not going anywhere for at least the next 2 seasons no matter what due to the AD's stupidity.

[Wildhog]

i didnt think you were saying that.  I was just saying that with CBP's gift etc. it still only amounted to a couple more wins a year and still nothing vs bama etc.

I definitely think CBP is better than CBB in terms of x's o's though i believe players like CBB more. One is sleeze bag other is type of guy you want as a friend.

A couple more wins a year is HUGE, though.

[hogsanity]

Absolutely! I'd take it again in a New York minute.

In 2010, a win over Auburn would have put the Hogs in a tie with Auburn for the SEC West Title with the Hogs winning the tie breaker and going to Atlanta with a top 5 national Ranking and a shot at the national title game.

In 2011, a win over LSU would have vaulted the Hogs to a #2 national ranking and a rematch with Bama in the National Title game.

Some like to ignore just how close the Hogs were to winning it all those 2 years because of their hate for the guy that was the Head Coach back then.

Close but no cigar is the story of the program since the 1964 season. Almost in 65, 69, 77, 79, 88, 89, 98, 06, 10, 11 probably missing one or 2 more in there.

[311Hog]

true they are all facts, but leaving out additional facts doesn't tell the whole story. Those 2011 Bama and LSU teams played in the National Championship game. Every opponent that faced those teams lost, and every Hog team in the last 30 years would have lost to those teams. Doesn't take away the fact that the season was a huge success compared to the previous 20 years.

Whats different about this story then every year of modern college football?

[311Hog]

FYI...CBP is long gone and that's not the point...let me help you with comprehension....the point was BP's winning here was far from average by AR. standard as you stated that it was..also by your flawed logic, if we can't get a coach to come in a win a NC, then we should do nothing at all..look, this is a 5 year train wreck, if you don't want to see that then enjoy..because he in not going anywhere for at least the next 2 seasons no matter what due to the AD's stupidity.

no it wasn't it was about the same as standard AR win history.  CBP did nothing more than what Nutt, Hatfield etc. had done before him.

[jst01]

who said those seasons were not successful?

You seemed to imply that b/c the Hogs played in bowl games that they had already been to, that it watered down the regular season results

[311Hog]

A couple more wins a year is HUGE, though.

in terms of making a season successful? absolutely and much preferred, but doesn't change our "standing" in college football all that much.  And that is what people are wanting.  They want to beat Bama, LSU i know i do, but i am not selling my school's soul to do it.

[hogsanity]

A couple more wins a year is HUGE, though.

why? If at the end of the season you are not playing in ATL for the SECC what is one or two more wins really? Maybe be ranked depending on bowl outcome. Maybe go to Nashville or Orlando instead of Memphis or Houston. At the end of the season though you are still just like another 25 or so teams, 9 wins and wait til next year.

Again, if the goal is to win a title, at least a div title, if you do not do that what is the real difference expect a chance for the fans who need to do so to beat their chest a little harder.

[hogsanity]

You seemed to imply that b/c the Hogs played in bowl games that they had already been to, that it watered down the regular season results

No, I am saying to stop acting like the Hogs had never done it before. People acted like the Sugar bowl was the 1st major bowl the Hogs had ever played in.

[hogsanity]

in terms of making a season successful? absolutely and much preferred, but doesn't change our "standing" in college football all that much.  And that is what people are wanting.  They want to beat Bama, LSU i know i do, but i am not selling my school's soul to do it.

Some of these people would sell something much more personal than the schools soul.

[PorkRinds]

If we are all honest, what coaches are available and willing to come here will and should be part of whether Long keeps CBB if this season continues to be lackluster. If there isn't anyone better available, it may be worth hanging on another year. If Chip Kelley shows interest fire him tomorrow.

[Redhogs]

in terms of making a season successful? absolutely and much preferred, but doesn't change our "standing" in college football all that much.  And that is what people are wanting.  They want to beat Bama, LSU i know i do, but i am not selling my school's soul to do it.

So all successful programs sold their souls to win....I bet you think all rich people stole from others to get rich too...right? 

[311Hog]

So all successful programs sold their souls to win....I bet you think all rich people stole from others to get rich too...right? 

careful with absolutes.  We both know that not all stereotypes are 100% accurate but they exist for a reason.

If we let a guy hire his mistress to a position under him just to win a couple more games i am not sure about you but that is pretty close to selling your soul.

[hogsanity]

So all successful programs sold their souls to win....I bet you think all rich people stole from others to get rich too...right? 

We are told here all the time that Bama and Aub and anyone else that is successful is cheating.

[WilsonHog]

Just looking at our program, and really all of college football.

What was the last p5 team that had similar history that suddenly rose up and became a 9+ game a year winner? I guess the answer is Okie St and they did not do it until the last round of conf realignment took Neb and A&m out of the big12.

In short, we do what all of college football does. If that means firing and hiring coaches every five years, so be it.

[Wildhog]

Do we have the ignore feature or not?

[311Hog]

In short, we do what all of college football does. If that means firing and hiring coaches every five years, so be it.

yeah i do no think he is saying we shouldn't do that, but maybe we should try to break the cycle rather than accept it.

These comments are not for CBB and his results as much as it is a reality check on what we have actually witnessed in "modern" history.

I mean i have read your posts recently and i totally agree i used to blow a gasket about this cycle of mediocre and "almosts", but i do not any longer maybe it comes with age i dunno.

[Hogwild]

In 2011, a win over LSU would have vaulted the Hogs to a #2 national ranking and a rematch with Bama in the National Title game.

I don't think it would have, LSU would have still won the West and destroyed UGA in Atlanta.  The question would have then been who LSU would have been playing in the BCS title game, Bama, Arkansas, or OK State.

[Dominicanhog]

I don't think it would have, LSU would have still won the West and destroyed UGA in Atlanta.  The question would have then been who LSU would have been playing in the BCS title game, Bama, Arkansas, or OK State.

Gosh, to be in the thick of it again...

[The_Iceman]

The one thing keeping Bielema from competing is his inability to recruit and develop Offensive Linemen. That's it.

Put Kirkland on last year's team, and I think we close out those last two games. But we had no answer for him leaving.

We have two 4-star studs on the bench for whatever reason can't play over two walkons. Merrick and Wallace not playing over Gibson and Clary is mind boggling. Those boys at 6'5" 330 and 6'6" 335 should be plowing the road for our running backs.

[PorkRinds]

The one thing keeping Bielema from competing is his inability to recruit and develop Offensive Linemen. That's it.

Put Kirkland on last year's team, and I think we close out those last two games. But we had no answer for him leaving.

We have two 4-star studs on the bench for whatever reason can't play over two walkons. Merrick and Wallace not playing over Gibson and Clary is mind boggling. Those boys at 6'5" 330 and 6'6" 335 should be plowing the road for our running backs.

Hard to disagree. If it's their ability to pick up the system, make the system easier for those guys. They're physically developed and have experience. Friggin use it.

[bphi11ips]

The same way I explain 2006, 1998, 1989, 1988, 1979, 1977, 1965, 1964  EXCELLENT, far above average instate players signed a couple years before those dates with a couple out of state studs in key positions. That is what average programs do, they have one or 2 good years, then 3 or 4 not so good, then a couple that are middle of the road. The only difference BB has is that they have not had that one big year yet.

What continues to amaze me is how many people act like no coach here had ever won 10 games in s season or gone to a major bowl before 2010/11. Hatfield went to an Orange and 2 Cottons when those were still the 4 major NYD bowls. Holtz went to an Orange and a Sugar, JFB went to 2 Cottons, and a Sugar. All when those bowls were THE MAIN 4 BOWLS.

Nice dodge.  Here is what you said yesterday:

"Nutt managed, either through luck or other means, to get game changers. I think it was luck more than anything that MJ and Dmac & Hillis and Monk and a few others were born in AR and wanted to be Hogs regardless. Your point is valid though, for whatever reason, no one since has brought those kind of players here."

How do you explain 1959, 1960, 1961,1962, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1975, 1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1995, 1999, 2002? 

Where was Lance Alworth from?  Freddie Marshall?  Ronnie Caveness? Lloyd Phillips?  Bill Montgomery?  Chuck Dicus?  Joe Ferguson?  Ron Calcagni?  Greg Koch?  R.C Thielmann? Greg Kolenda?  Steve Korte? Dickey Morton? Ike Forte?  Kevin Scanlon?  Quin Grovey?  Clint Stoerner?  Ken Hamlin? Steve Little?  Jim Mabry?  Travis Swanson?  Cobi Hamilton?  I could go on.  During their best years Arkansas has inevitably relied upon out-of-state talent, mostly from Texas. 

I'll agree with you that Arkansas's success has in general risen and fallen with the crop of Arkansas players, but that is not always the case.  It also rises and falls with the quality of out-of-state talent, especially at QB, playing at the All-Conference and All-American level. 

You are simply going to stick to your schtick and we get that, but some of us will counter with the truth for the benefit of those who might buy in to it. 

[Wildhog]

This whole, "If you don't win the SEC then what difference does it make?" nonsense is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board. 

[Wildhog]

hogsanity is one of the worst posters on this board right now.