Major numbers problems for Bama

[WBChogfan]

Recruits may not expect to be forced out, but they should be prepared for such or go do something else.  They are essentially being paid to play a game at a university.  They are paid room, board, tuition, books, etc..., which I'll bet is a much better deal then 99% of the members on this board got or have.

They earn their keep and then some.  Athletic scholarships require way more work than academic scholarships.  My academic scholarship was the functional equivalent to the full athletic scholarship, and I guarantee you I did far less for it.  It required renewal, but the renewal terms were explicit.  As long as I met the specified, WRITTEN requirements, I kept the scholarship.  I never lived in fear that I might lose my scholarship because of an incoming freshman with a higher ACT score. 

These athletes are expected to slave away for the university, and they are rewarded with a scholarship.  They should only be pulled for cause (i.e. not meeting specified requirements).  If the requirements were not specifically defined at the outset, I find it offensive to pull a scholarship from an athlete doing the right thing, especially at the last minute.

I know that you can transfer to a lower-division school without penalty, but I can't imagine the effect it would have on the degree.  If you transfer with more than the core curriculum, you're probably going to lose some credits.  At the bare minimum, they aren't all going to fit in the degree plan.

The NCAA needs to allow for some exceptions in this case.  I'd be in favor of allowing an immediate transfer without penalty plus the addition of a year of eligibility to allow for the completion of the degree at a different university.

[hogsanity]

For all of you jumping off the cliff, do you think Saban is the only coach who hasn't renewed a scholarship?

No, I dont think that at all.  Spurrier did it, and his reason was simple.  He said that a bunch of Sc HS players had been signed basically because the school wanted to keep the HS coaches happy.  He said the kids were not sec material, and he cut them.  And now, Clkemson and NC are getting most of the good in state talent.

I am sure lots of coaches do it.  The problem I have with it is that the kids getting cut wont be told until who knows when.  I guess they have to wait and see how many of the new guys actually qualify.  So, it may be July or Aug, and then Saban just tells some sophmore or JR that he no longer has a scholarship. 

[hogsanity]

Why is this even an issue?  Is it because it's AL and Saban?  I mean many, many schools over sign by 5-10 in a year...look at Ole Miss the last 4 years.  I understand that it may be difficult for the numbers to ultimately work out at AL, but this is nothing new with any program.  Saban is being paid big bucks to win alot of FB games for probably the most insane program in the history of college football.  Obviously, he doesn't think that whatever he is doing is going to have a negative effect on recruiting in the future, and he's a smart man that's been in this business for a long time. 

I think it being Saban has alot to do with it, but, also, it is the fact that he oversigned by so many.  Auburn oversigned last year, but they knew that 10 of the guys would not qualify, and they knew that they would have room for everyone else.  Saban went out and did this, knowing that even with the academic issues, enough would qualify that he would have to get rid of some players currently on the team.

[pfrg999]

I hate that I'm playing devil's advocate so much for a bama coach, but I think if it's just Shula's recruits that he's cutting, he can spin it as them being incompatible with his system, and then tell parents this isn't something the kids he recruits will have a problem with.

Will Never happen.... You cannot pull several kids scollies, just because you are a different coach... and if you can, show me where "Several" players have been "Cut" by the coach to make room for "His" players...
  I have never heard of it...

[311Hog]

Really?  And just exactly which NCAA rule do you find a "serviceable" reason being needed to not renew a scholarship?

You should try pulling the wool over someone else's eyes.  You just keep digging yourself a larger hole. 

I am not digging any hole i am simply being an idealist, about something i like. I would hope that we havent slipped so far as a culture that we now consider treating amatures as if they were professionals as common place.  Sure i realize i am prolly wrong here, and that the concern for the futures of these young people pale in comparison to the almighty $$$$$$.


I mean some of it stems from the angst that someone got something you didnt. And yeah ath get much better treatment as a whole then avg. students, but students are students and the system is one hell of a clogged up bureaucracy. One in which bucking the system can have disastrous consequences, and at the very least cost you alot of time and money. It doesnt just end with ATH either btw, ever see what happens to grad. students of a professor who takes their research and show to another school? yeah that is fun.

Higher education is such a joke sometimes. 

[pfrg999]

I do sympathize with that part.  It's not that I don't feel for the kids, but a coach has to be able to run his program.  It seems some type of legitimate compromise could be made. 

So the kids are just.. well out on the street... What about the rest of thier education... Will the NCAA allow then to transfer to another D1 school... because the coach didn't want them..... It seems to me like a situation that a lawsuit to arise...

[311Hog]

I do sympathize with that part.  It's not that I don't feel for the kids, but a coach has to be able to run his program.  It seems some type of legitimate compromise could be made. 

the problem is we are dealing with 2 opposing forces.

1. A quasi professional sports team complete with the premaddona's, marketing, BIG $$$$$$ etc.

2. An institution of higher learning where people generally for the first time, pay BIG $$$ to get a "valuable education" in order to have a good job, life etc.

Then you smash these two things together, you are offering the education in exchange for having your soul sold on the playing field so the school and subsequent "leach" businesses can get paid.

So where do you draw the line? Are these people students who happen to play a sport or are they Million dollar pieces of fleshy equipment to be exploited at the institutions whim who can maybe parlay their athletic abilities into a diploma that will always be there for them to fall back on?

[Bubba's Bruisers]

They earn their keep and then some.  Athletic scholarships require way more work than academic scholarships.  My academic scholarship was the functional equivalent to the full athletic scholarship, and I guarantee you I did far less for it.  It required renewal, but the renewal terms were explicit.  As long as I met the specified, WRITTEN requirements, I kept the scholarship.  I never lived in fear that I might lose my scholarship because of an incoming freshman with a higher ACT score. 

These athletes are expected to slave away for the university, and they are rewarded with a scholarship.  They should only be pulled for cause (i.e. not meeting specified requirements).  If the requirements were not specifically defined at the outset, I find it offensive to pull a scholarship from an athlete doing the right thing, especially at the last minute.

I know that you can transfer to a lower-division school without penalty, but I can't imagine the effect it would have on the degree.  If you transfer with more than the core curriculum, you're probably going to lose some credits.  At the bare minimum, they aren't all going to fit in the degree plan.

The NCAA needs to allow for some exceptions in this case.  I'd be in favor of allowing an immediate transfer without penalty plus the addition of a year of eligibility to allow for the completion of the degree at a different university.

Yes, but these recruits are not forced, but CHOOSE to be subject to these stringent terms.  If it's so unfair and unethical as many seem to imply (not necessarily you), then why would these athletes subject themselves to all of this?  I mean, dang, new suckers are lining up for miles to get the same deal each and every year.  And what about those that lose their scholarship with one year remaining, but can't afford to finish?  I'll say it does suck, but they got a much better deal then the recruit who couldn't afford college and got no scholarship out of HS.  What's he been doing for the last 3 or 4 years?  What should we be doing for him? 

[jgphillips3]

I suspect players will be "strongly" "encouraged" to transfer to another school for playing time.  It is also possible that he could remove them from the team and the university could give them an academic scholarship.  They wouldn't be football players any longer and wouldn't be able to ever get on the field again, but it could be done to allow them to continue to receive a "free ride" at Bama. 

[311Hog]

Save yourself some time and either argue based on a rule or your opinion.  One minute you try to tell me about terms of a non-existant contract.  The next minute you arguing about something important to you.  That's fine.  I'm not for hosing the athlete.  But, acting like there is some type of contract being is another issue. 

But there is !

Academic scholarship, you must maintain a degree plan and a GPA to keep the schollie correct? these are the terms cut and dry.

If you do the course work and get the grade you keep the schollie no if's an's or but's about it. No one is going to mail you a letter and say " sorry kid you did everything we asked of you but we found a new kid with a higher act score and we are giving your schollie to him/her". That wont happen.

Now the otherside, ath scholarship, you must attend practice, etc workouts, study halls, games, progress in course work to a degree in an approved degree plan and keep a certain GPA correct?

The rules are cut and dry if a kid meets all of those things and still has his or her schollie yanked for no other reason then you purposefully over committed a resource you KNEW you didnt have enough of, then how is it the kid's fault? what did they do wrong ?

[Bubba's Bruisers]

But there is !

Academic scholarship, you must maintain a degree plan and a GPA to keep the schollie correct? these are the terms cut and dry.

If you do the course work and get the grade you keep the schollie no if's an's or but's about it. No one is going to mail you a letter and say " sorry kid you did everything we asked of you but we found a new kid with a higher act score and we are giving your schollie to him/her". That wont happen.

Now the otherside, ath scholarship, you must attend practice, etc workouts, study halls, games, progress in course work to a degree in an approved degree plan and keep a certain GPA correct?

The rules are cut and dry if a kid meets all of those things and still has his or her schollie yanked for no other reason then you purposefully over committed a resource you KNEW you didnt have enough of, then how is it the kid's fault? what did they do wrong ?

But these kids know that the term of an athletic scholarship is for only 1 year at a time.  The AD is under no obligation to renew after a year.  As long as the kid is allowed to stay during his 1 year period, the terms are met by the AD.  I'm not after what seems fair and makes us feel good.  I'm after what is actually obligated.  I doubt Saban is violating any terms of a kid's scholarship.  He's just using those terms to his advantage.  Many other big time coaches do the same thing, and many don't.   

[upperdeck_hawg]

if this were the university of multi directonal state instead of big bad bama and nick saban, would we be so concerned with what happens with these kids? like it's been pointed out, this happens all the time at other schools, but because bama just signed a monster class and will be a force to be reckoned with for years to come, we are looking for any kind of negative spin on it. i for one look forward to playing a bama at its best. makes beating them the more satisfying (see LSU this year).

[HogK]

Trust me, the real consequence is how crap like this will affect Saban's standing in eyes of Alabama high school football coaches and players.  Right now, he's signing big classes and highly-ranked players and it's all good, but it will turn south very quickly if he does too much to alienate players and coaches.  I've lived in Bama.  It's just like Arkansas, only a little bigger and with two SEC programs.  People expect their fellow Alabamians to deal in integrity and fairness.   If Saban spends 3-4 years, going into Alabama living rooms and high school coaches offices, saying one thing and then not honoring his own words (basically acting like the damn yankee he is), well....things are going to get real ugly (especially with Tubby following him into the same offices and living rooms and offering Aubie as an alternative.)

[Bama Possum]

How about the fact that all the scenarios being bandied about are pure speculation?

Unless someone knows the true numbers situation, how can they even pretend to make a judgment?

1. How many players have already asked to transfer? Do you know? Me either.

2. How many will have to go on medical? I know of at least 2 and possibly 4. Lett has battled diabetes unsuccessfully and never seen the field. Will Oakley has been plagued with hamstring issues for 2 years. Now, poor Zeke Knight is dealing with health issues again.

3. Does every kid DESERVE to have their scholarship renewed? Who isn't going to workouts and class? Who is an arrest waiting to happen and a cancer growing within the team?

Why are 18-24 year olds considered "kids" when it is convenient? Most of the kids discussed as the poor little babies here are patently adult. Some of them have kids. Why is the young man who goes into the workforce upgraded to adult, while the one who goes to college remains a "kid"? Every student on scholarship, regardless of the scholarship type, has to meet certain standards in order to maintain that scholarship. If they do not, or cannot meet those requirements, then they have to find an alternative means of financing their education.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

How about the fact that all the scenarios being bandied about are pure speculation?

Unless someone knows the true numbers situation, how can they even pretend to make a judgment?

1. How many players have already asked to transfer? Do you know? Me either.

2. How many will have to go on medical? I know of at least 2 and possibly 4. Lett has battled diabetes unsuccessfully and never seen the field. Will Oakley has been plagued with hamstring issues for 2 years. Now, poor Zeke Knight is dealing with health issues again.

3. Does every kid DESERVE to have their scholarship renewed? Who isn't going to workouts and class? Who is an arrest waiting to happen and a cancer growing within the team?

Why are 18-24 year olds considered "kids" when it is convenient? Most of the kids discussed as the poor little babies here are patently adult. Some of them have kids. Why is the young man who goes into the workforce upgraded to adult, while the one who goes to college remains a "kid"? Every student on scholarship, regardless of the scholarship type, has to meet certain standards in order to maintain that scholarship. If they do not, or cannot meet those requirements, then they have to find an alternative means of financing their education.

DING!, DING!, DING!  We have a winner.  Well said.  +1

This is all about the evil Saban.  This thread reminds of ESPN crucifying Petrino, while at the same time giving Rodriguez a pass.

[VoR]

I hate that I'm playing devil's advocate so much for a bama coach, but I think if it's just Shula's recruits that he's cutting, he can spin it as them being incompatible with his system, and then tell parents this isn't something the kids he recruits will have a problem with.

Biggest problem I have with it is, and I've said this many times before. If a coach can revoke schollie's, then the athlete should have the same right without penalty i.e. RM.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

Biggest problem I have with it is, and I've said this many times before. If a coach can revoke schollie's, then the athlete should have the same right without penalty i.e. RM.

Let's not confuse revoke with renew...big difference.  Players do have the right not to renew.  They just have to sit out a year if they exercise it.  I have no problem with that.  However, I agree that a player shouldn't have to sit out if the coach actually does not renew the scholarship.  Actually, I'm not for sure if they actually do have to sit out in that case.

BTW, RM is not a good example here, as I seriously doubt RR wasn't going to renew his scholarship.

[losthawg68]

I'd love to have this problem 

we just rid of an idiot coach though

[SquidBilly]

If the NCAA is really concerned about this issue then they should do the following:  If a coach decides that a particuliar student athletes skills do not match what is needed to play on his team then they are allowed to pull their athletic scholarship but in those cases the school should still be on the hook for a scholarship to allow the kid to finish his education.  it does not have to be an athletic scholarship that counts against the 85 but a scholarship that will allow the kid to finish his degree.  It just does not seem ethical to have the kids bust their tails in practices, class, and all other things these guys have to do just to up and take away their chance at an education in their junior or senior year.  Likely if a guy is getting his scholarship pulled he should probably be focused on finding something he is going to be successful at but the school should still have to pay for it.   

[Boog41]

Most posters on this thread seem to take the assumption that kids should get their entire education paid for and that is is wrong to yank their scholorship. I mostly agree with that. But, Nick may know that he has 7-8 kids that just don't give a crap and he intends to get rid of them.

Is this wrong? If you think about it in these terms, it makes it more understandable.

[oldfart]

keep in mind that if someone transfers say, at the end of his junior year, to another school, most universities require a certain number of hours be completed at their university to graduate.  Usually about two years worth.  that means that if they transfered to another school they would have to attend an extra year if they wanted to graduate.

[SquidBilly]

Most posters on this thread seem to take the assumption that kids should get their entire education paid for and that is is wrong to yank their scholorship. I mostly agree with that. But, Nick may know that he has 7-8 kids that just don't give a crap and he intends to get rid of them.

Is this wrong? If you think about it in these terms, it makes it more understandable.

But if that were truly the case one would hope he would have gotten rid of them before, not just when it seems to be conveneint for him.  I see your point but if that were the case I think they would have been gone long ago.

[hogsanity]

How about the fact that all the scenarios being bandied about are pure speculation?

Unless someone knows the true numbers situation, how can they even pretend to make a judgment?

1. How many players have already asked to transfer? Do you know? Me either.

2. How many will have to go on medical? I know of at least 2 and possibly 4. Lett has battled diabetes unsuccessfully and never seen the field. Will Oakley has been plagued with hamstring issues for 2 years. Now, poor Zeke Knight is dealing with health issues again.

3. Does every kid DESERVE to have their scholarship renewed? Who isn't going to workouts and class? Who is an arrest waiting to happen and a cancer growing within the team?

Why are 18-24 year olds considered "kids" when it is convenient? Most of the kids discussed as the poor little babies here are patently adult. Some of them have kids. Why is the young man who goes into the workforce upgraded to adult, while the one who goes to college remains a "kid"? Every student on scholarship, regardless of the scholarship type, has to meet certain standards in order to maintain that scholarship. If they do not, or cannot meet those requirements, then they have to find an alternative means of financing their education.

But a kid on an acamdemic scholarship has DEFINED CRITERIA to keep it.  I know, I had one and lost it because I did not make the required grades. I did earn another one playing on the golf team. A football player does not have those defined criteria.  Unless I missed something and there is a list of # of tackles, or receptions, or pancake blocks. 

[JIHawg]

Every coach, every program, juggles their rosters.  Case in point-John West.  He was obviously a bust, so, John moved on, or was he moved on?  In basketball, Cyrus?  This is no fodder to crucify Saban.  It happens everywhere. 

[wholehog92]

How about the fact that all the scenarios being bandied about are pure speculation?

Unless someone knows the true numbers situation, how can they even pretend to make a judgment?

1. How many players have already asked to transfer? Do you know? Me either.

2. How many will have to go on medical? I know of at least 2 and possibly 4. Lett has battled diabetes unsuccessfully and never seen the field. Will Oakley has been plagued with hamstring issues for 2 years. Now, poor Zeke Knight is dealing with health issues again.

3. Does every kid DESERVE to have their scholarship renewed? Who isn't going to workouts and class? Who is an arrest waiting to happen and a cancer growing within the team?

4.  Why are 18-24 year olds considered "kids" when it is convenient? Most of the kids discussed as the poor little babies here are patently adult. Some of them have kids. Why is the young man who goes into the workforce upgraded to adult, while the one who goes to college remains a "kid"? Every student on scholarship, regardless of the scholarship type, has to meet certain standards in order to maintain that scholarship. If they do not, or cannot meet those requirements, then they have to find an alternative means of financing their education.

1 and 2 were addressed earlier in the thread.

3.  No every kid doesn't deserve the chance.  Are you willing to say Saban is focusing on those kids and not the ones that just don't have the talent?  There is lively debate about that going on and it is interesting conversation.  Perhaps you should read it before you lecture.

4.  The reason 18-24 year olds not attending college that enter the workplace are called men is that they are productively contributing to society.  They have decided to leave the world of academia and support themselves and possibly their dependants.  The KIDS at college are for the most part still living on the generosity of someone else.  There are exceptions of course, but on the whole, kids go to school on scholarships provided by donors, money from mom and dad, or grants from the state.  Just because these kids have kids doesn't make them a man, in fact the opposite could very well be true.  It may very well have been the hight of selfishness (definition of a child at their core) that produced a child.

That fairly addresses your statements and questions, now I would like to make a point.  When you enter a Hog board with a name like Bama Possum and start lecturing Ark fans on what we should and shouldn't be discussing, expect someone to take exception.

[311Hog]

You are like a dog chasing his tail.  You just keep going in circles.  No one is arguing this is the kid's fault.  I'm telling you the coach can cut the kid.  There are not explicit rules like there are on an academic scholarship.  Where did you get those things? 

You must not have read this whole thread or we are arguing two different points.

My point since the beginning has been: If Saban wishes to cut players that have done everythign RIGHT, then he should expect some media attention (negative) and it IS THEIR BUSINESS.

I got into this thread with a quote of Nick Saban saying it was none of the media's business who he cuts and why, and i am saying yes it is.

While you are correct the "letter of the law" says that from year to year any player can be cut for any reason or no reason at all, but we all know that is not the practice, most of the time coaches and schools try not to just outright cut a kid who has been doing everything they could.

All i am saying and all i have ever said was that Saban should expect negative press if he does a whole sale cut to fit in his bloated new recruiting class. That is it.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

You must not have read this whole thread or we are arguing two different points.

My point since the beginning has been: If Saban wishes to cut players that have done everythign RIGHT, then he should expect some media attention (negative) and it IS THEIR BUSINESS.

I got into this thread with a quote of Nick Saban saying it was none of the media's business who he cuts and why, and i am saying yes it is.

While you are correct the "letter of the law" says that from year to year any player can be cut for any reason or no reason at all, but we all know that is not the practice, most of the time coaches and schools try not to just outright cut a kid who has been doing everything they could.

All i am saying and all i have ever said was that Saban should expect negative press if he does a whole sale cut to fit in his bloated new recruiting class. That is it.

My point is this is all purely speculation right now.  We don't know if Saban is going to do a "wholesale" cut to accomodate his new class.  We also don't know if those he doesn't renew "have done everything RIGHT".  The fact is we will never know the true reasons for any of it...if it happens.  Of course, we will assume the worst because it's Saban.  We will then follow in ESPN's footsteps by crucifying him when we don't know the facts.  We'll just assume he's guilty of something because it's the easy thing to do.

[311Hog]

My point is this is all purely speculation right now.  We don't know if Saban is going to do a "wholesale" cut to accomodate his new class.  We also don't know if those he doesn't renew "have done everything RIGHT".  The fact is we will never know the true reasons for any of it...if it happens.  Of course, we will assume the worst because it's Saban.  We will then follow in ESPN's footsteps by crucifying him when we don't know the facts.  We'll just assume he's guilty of something because it's the easy thing to do.

Well this maybe true, but the bigger issue IMHO is that the NCAA needs to revist the overall treatment of student athletes.  With all the big time coaching changes and that whole bit etc i think some kind of review needs to take place, some kind of oversight, because strange things are happening, scandals at different Universities, Bush USC, WVU, Mich, etc etc. It just seems like the NCAA is so behind and out of the loop and big time athletics is in a funk.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

Why is this even an issue?  Is it because it's AL and Saban?  I mean many, many schools over sign by 5-10 in a year...look at Ole Miss the last 4 years.  I understand that it may be difficult for the numbers to ultimately work out at AL, but this is nothing new with any program.  Saban is being paid big bucks to win alot of FB games for probably the most insane program in the history of college football.  Obviously, he doesn't think that whatever he is doing is going to have a negative effect on recruiting in the future, and he's a smart man that's been in this business for a long time. 

Everything you just said is true.  You forgot to add one thing though.

Everyone outside of Bama MUST hate on Saban.  ESPN told us he is bad, and that he lied at Miami (disregard the stories coming out of Miami where Huizenga and Saban both admit to a congenial meeting to discuss the LAST offer from Bama that ultimately did CHANGE Saban's mind).
Yeah, after the treatment of BP, we can all see that ESPN is fair, honest, and full of journalistic integrity....Uhhh no?   

I'll add that we oversigned a time or two, with HDN stating:
"We had to offer these kids, knowing that they would probably accept and we'd oversign.  But these kids....They're just so good.  We couldn't pass them up.  The numbers have a way of working themselves out."

[Bubba's Bruisers]

Well this maybe true, but the bigger issue IMHO is that the NCAA needs to revist the overall treatment of student athletes.  With all the big time coaching changes and that whole bit etc i think some kind of review needs to take place, some kind of oversight, because strange things are happening, scandals at different Universities, Bush USC, WVU, Mich, etc etc. It just seems like the NCAA is so behind and out of the loop and big time athletics is in a funk.

I agree with you on this point, but that has not been the point I've been arguing.  Your response here actually confirms my point, which is this in not a Nick Saban problem, but an NCAA problem...if there is a problem at all.  Saban is simply playing by the rules set forth by the NCAA, whether we or anyone else think it's fair or not.  He's just an easy target by fans.  If AR was in the same situation as AL (what ever that is) with Petrino signing 30something players in this class, this thread wouldn't even exist right now.  We simply don't like Saban.  And let's not forget who started this thread.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, wishes Saban was still at LSU.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, knows that Miles couldn't hold Saban's jock when it comes to coaching and recruiting.  He knows AL is coming.  It will take a few years, but he knows they're coming.  He knows this from his experience with Saban at LSU.  He also knows that we are coming too.  Of course, AL cuts much deeper for LSU fans.

Again, I'll ask the same question I did in a previous post (but not directed at you).  If the terms of these athletic scholarships are so unfair and skewed in favor of the university, then why do athletes continue to line up to take them?  Why do they subject themselves to such a travesty?

 

[311Hog]

I agree with you on this point, but that has not been the point I've been arguing.  Your response here actually confirms my point, which is this in not a Nick Saban problem, but an NCAA problem...if there is a problem at all.  Saban is simply playing by the rules set forth by the NCAA, whether we or anyone else think it's fair or not.  He's just an easy target by fans.  If AR was in the same situation as AL (what ever that is) with Petrino signing 30something players in this class, this thread wouldn't even exist right now.  We simply don't like Saban.  And let's not forget who started this thread.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, wishes Saban was still at LSU.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, knows that Miles couldn't hold Saban's jock when it comes to coaching and recruiting.  He knows AL is coming.  It will take a few years, but he knows they're coming.  He knows this from his experience with Saban at LSU.  He also knows that we are coming too.  Of course, AL cuts much deeper for LSU fans.

Again, I'll ask the same question I did in a previous post (but not directed at you).  If the terms of these athletic scholarships are so unfair and skewed in favor of the university, then why do athletes continue to line up to take them?  Why do they subject themselves to such a travesty?

 

And i will answer your question even though it wasnt directed at me.  IMHO

It is because they HAVE TO.

They have one ticket (alot of them) to success in life, be it to get school paid for because they cant afford it so they use their athletics to get it paid, or they have to play 2 years of college ball before they can play football etc for a living. It is all barriers to entry.

Alot of kids if they could go straight to the NFL from High School would, but they cant there is no real minor leagues like there is in baseball.  If there was a legit "minor league" system for football college football would dry up, instead it is like a big game of who can pad each others wallet the most.  We use student athletes like indentured servants for a few years while they make the school and tv networks big bucks, and in return we offer them the opportunity to work like a mac truck to get a degree, and the opportunity to showcase themselves for the possible big pay day (NFL).


My disconnect comes in the manner in which student athletes basically seem to lead totally different lives from the avg. student body. Their schollies arent guaranteed, they have to put in crazy hours, they get incredible amounts of help in terms of books, tutors, etc. I mean it is just crazy. These programs get crazy amounts of cash from their "normal" funds and then INSANE amounts of cash from other sources, and the athlete aside from perdium,  and tuition etc they dont see any of it.

The whole system imho is flawed the bowls are flawed the conferences are flawed, schollies flawed, NCAA slight of hand on who gets punished and who doesnt is flawed, the list goes on and on.

[All Hogs]

The Ole Ball Coach did that a couple of years ago.  Lou had signed several kids from the Columbia area who weren't SEC caliber, so he cut them.  He caught a lot of grief for it, but he survived.

Like it or not, these four year scholarships are really only a series of one year scholarships that CAN be renewed each year.

What do you mean he survived...what has he won and all the major players in South Carolina area or going to Clemson...how is that surviving...

[Bubba's Bruisers]

And i will answer your question even though it wasnt directed at me.  IMHO

It is because they HAVE TO.

They have one ticket (alot of them) to success in life, be it to get school paid for because they cant afford it so they use their athletics to get it paid, or they have to play 2 years of college ball before they can play football etc for a living. It is all barriers to entry.

Alot of kids if they could go straight to the NFL from High School would, but they cant there is no real minor leagues like there is in baseball.  If there was a legit "minor league" system for football college football would dry up, instead it is like a big game of who can pad each others wallet the most.  We use student athletes like indentured servants for a few years while they make the school and tv networks big bucks, and in return we offer them the opportunity to work like a mac truck to get a degree, and the opportunity to showcase themselves for the possible big pay day (NFL).


My disconnect comes in the manner in which student athletes basically seem to lead totally different lives from the avg. student body. Their schollies arent guaranteed, they have to put in crazy hours, they get incredible amounts of help in terms of books, tutors, etc. I mean it is just crazy. These programs get crazy amounts of cash from their "normal" funds and then INSANE amounts of cash from other sources, and the athlete aside from perdium,  and tuition etc they dont see any of it.

The whole system imho is flawed the bowls are flawed the conferences are flawed, schollies flawed, NCAA slight of hand on who gets punished and who doesnt is flawed, the list goes on and on.

They don't "have" to do anything.  They make a choice to accept or not.  They know that acceptance comes with certain conditions, hard conditions.  These athletes are thrilled to accept the terms because, as you said, they likely wouldn't be able to go to college without it.  They get a chance to pursue the NFL or NBA, and get all expenses paid trip away from home, which probably equals about $20K per year at the UA.  So what do you know, these 18 and 19 year old athletes are being paid, indirectly.

People come across like college is some right or something.  It just isn't.  Only getting to go for 2 years free might suck to that athlete, but it's better then nothing.  I mean what about those HS athletes that can't afford college and don't get an athletic scholarship?  What should be done for them?  They didn't even get to go college for a single minute.  What about the non-scholarship student who's funds dry up after 2 years, and has to go back home to get a job?  What should be done for him? 

One of the previous posters was absolutely correct.  We call these scholarship athletes "kids", but we call the guy who had to go straight to work out of HS a "man".  Interesting.     

[hawgfandude]

Saban is alot like Arkansas Fans - he will cut your Nutts out from under you.  Only, we did it for the right reasons.

[311Hog]

They don't "have" to do anything.  They make a choice to accept or not.  They know that acceptance comes with certain conditions, hard conditions.  These athletes are thrilled to accept the terms because, as you said, they likely wouldn't be able to go to college without it.  They get a chance to pursue the NFL or NBA, and get all expenses paid trip away from home, which probably equals about $20K per year at the UA.  So what do you know, these 18 and 19 year old athletes are being paid, indirectly.

People come across like college is some right or something.  It just isn't.  Only getting to go for 2 years free might suck to that athlete, but it's better then nothing.  I mean what about those HS athletes that can't afford college and don't get an athletic scholarship?  What should be done for them?  They didn't even get to go college for a single minute.  What about the non-scholarship student who's funds dry up after 2 years, and has to go back home to get a job?  What should be done for him? 

One of the previous posters was absolutely correct.  We call these scholarship athletes "kids", but we call the guy who had to go straight to work out of HS a "man".  Interesting.     

You are preaching to the choir in how hard it is to get a degree without having a silver spoon, or amazing athletic ability i wont even tell you how long it took me to finish and how many jobs i had etc etc safe to say it was hard, and i prolly wouldnt change that fact in hind sight.

All i was saying is that is how the "rat race" is designed for them.  If you want to play in the NFL you have to go to college there is no other way, they have no other choice. I would imagine there are hundreds of kids/men in the world today with all the NFL ability to play ball in the world but arent playing in the league why is that? because they didnt go to college or couldnt hack it in the class room are these people less human? i mean not everyone like you said was "meant" to go to college, and football isnt exactly a "thinking man's" game. In other words you dont need a Bachelor's degree to play football, so why do we force kids to go to college if what they want to do and were born to do is play football?

Is it for "life after football", what if they just arent book smart, round peg square hole, but they can play ball why should those people not be afforded the opportunity. And i know they can go to the draft and to camps after a certain amount of time but really how many of those kids actually make it and get that shot?  I like this discussion maybe my points are wrong i dunno.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

You are preaching to the choir in how hard it is to get a degree without having a silver spoon, or amazing athletic ability i wont even tell you how long it took me to finish and how many jobs i had etc etc safe to say it was hard, and i prolly wouldnt change that fact in hind sight.

All i was saying is that is how the "rat race" is designed for them.  If you want to play in the NFL you have to go to college there is no other way, they have no other choice. I would imagine there are hundreds of kids/men in the world today with all the NFL ability to play ball in the world but arent playing in the league why is that? because they didnt go to college or couldnt hack it in the class room are these people less human? i mean not everyone like you said was "meant" to go to college, and football isnt exactly a "thinking man's" game. In other words you dont need a Bachelor's degree to play football, so why do we force kids to go to college if what they want to do and were born to do is play football?

Is it for "life after football", what if they just arent book smart, round peg square hole, but they can play ball why should those people not be afforded the opportunity. And i know they can go to the draft and to camps after a certain amount of time but really how many of those kids actually make it and get that shot?  I like this discussion maybe my points are wrong i dunno.

311Hog, +1 to you.  We still might not totally agree here, but I enjoy a cordial debate every once in a while.  This was a good subject.

I think I'm done.

[311Hog]

311Hog, +1 to you.  We still might not totally agree here, but I enjoy a cordial debate every once in a while.  This was a good subject.

I think I'm done.

+1 to you to i just reread what i wrote and i was all off on a tangent which can happen to me. There is so much about this subject that i notice, boosters using the "razorback" to promote their real estate or endear people to their products, student athletes being used as "local" celebrities, etc etc. It has been good talking to ya.

[Tammany Tom]

And let's not forget who started this thread.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, wishes Saban was still at LSU.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, knows that Miles couldn't hold Saban's jock when it comes to coaching and recruiting.  He knows AL is coming.  It will take a few years, but he knows they're coming.  He knows this from his experience with Saban at LSU.  He also knows that we are coming too.  Of course, AL cuts much deeper for LSU fans. 

I love how you claim you know exactly what I'm thinking. I started this thread because I thought that it would provoke a good spirited discussion which it most certainly did.

While I am certainly glad that Saban was our head coach for a period of time, I most certainly do not wish he was still here. Most people know very little about the dynamics concerning LSU and Nick Saban. You know very little as to why he was successful here (and to this point in his career) the only place that he has truly succeeded at. Nick Saban made a national name for himself at LSU. People only want to point out how LSU benefitted from Saban and not visa versa. The real reason why LSU succeeded under Saban is because of the change in the LSU administration. Saban benefitted, as well as LSU football, by that monumental change in leadership and philosophy at the highest levels at LSU. While Saban was the right man in 2000 through 2004, it was a very good thing for both him and LSU that he left after the 2004 season.

I love how people think Saban coaches circles around Miles. Was it Miles or Saban that lost to UAB and Louisiana Monroe while at major BCS schools? Is it Miles or Saban that has lost no fewer than 2 games in a season while at LSU?  Was it Miles or Saban that got blown out by Florida, Georgia and Alabama by a combined score of 117-22 in years where LSU won 8, 9, and 10 games? Was it Miles or Saban that got burned twice on last second desparation TD passes where the defense totally self destructed? Is it Miles or Saban that has a head-to-head record of 8-4 against the "elite" coaches in the SEC?

Of course everyone is coming after us, including Bama and Arkansas. We are, afterall, where everyone wants to be. We are at the mountaintop. There is no other school in the SEC that has enjoyed the overall success we have this decade. Everyone wants what we currently have, therefore we know everyone is after us and it will be extremely difficult, to almost impossible, to maintain the level of success that we have enjoyed this decade. 

To the point of this thread: Saban is doing what he was hired to do: Win at all costs. Bama boosters and fans believe that they are the royalty of the SEC. Saban has immense pressure to win and win quickly at Bama. They aren't paying him $4 million to win moral victories. Saban led lowly LSU to the SEC title in year 2 of his regime. There is incredible pressure on him to match that feat. What most people don't realize is that LSU was loaded with NFL talent when Saban took the job. It wasn't nearly as big of a reconstruction job as he faces at Bama.

Bama has always been a program that places wins and championships above everything and I mean everything. There is a reason why they are the all-time dirtiest program.

While schools, including LSU, have all took away scholarships from undeserving players it doesn't make it right. You need to stop following college football and place all your attention towards the NFL if you are a win at all costs person. You must remember that college football is played by young men (emphasize young). They are impressionable and can be manipulated easily. They must be in some way be protected from men of power that get paid millions. The NFL is your game if you like non-guaranteed contracts (or in otherwords one year contracts), no loyalty towards any organization or player, players leaving teams for better pay, and teams cutting players because they just signed a better player.

I like college football for a reason and hope that it stays different than the NFL. It's too close to the NFL now for my comfort and I truly hope that it somehow, someway, stays a game played between Schools by amateur kids trying to improve their lives.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I love how you claim you know exactly what I'm thinking. I started this thread because I thought that it would provoke a good spirited discussion which it most certainly did.

While I am certainly glad that Saban was our head coach for a period of time, I most certainly do not wish he was still here. Most people know very little about the dynamics concerning LSU and Nick Saban. You know very little as to why he was successful here (and to this point in his career) the only place that he has truly succeeded at. Nick Saban made a national name for himself at LSU. People only want to point out how LSU benefitted from Saban and not visa versa. The real reason why LSU succeeded under Saban is because of the change in the LSU administration. Saban benefitted, as well as LSU football, by that monumental change in leadership and philosophy at the highest levels at LSU. While Saban was the right man in 2000 through 2004, it was a very good thing for both him and LSU that he left after the 2004 season.

I love how people think Saban coaches circles around Miles. Was it Miles or Saban that lost to UAB and Louisiana Monroe while at major BCS schools? Is it Miles or Saban that has lost no fewer than 2 games in a season while at LSU?  Was it Miles or Saban that got blown out by Florida, Georgia and Alabama by a combined score of 117-22 in years where LSU won 8, 9, and 10 games? Was it Miles or Saban that got burned twice on last second desparation TD passes where the defense totally self destructed? Is it Miles or Saban that has a head-to-head record of 8-4 against the "elite" coaches in the SEC?

Of course everyone is coming after us, including Bama and Arkansas. We are, afterall, where everyone wants to be. We are at the mountaintop. There is no other school in the SEC that has enjoyed the overall success we have this decade. Everyone wants what we currently have, therefore we know everyone is after us and it will be extremely difficult, to almost impossible, to maintain the level of success that we have enjoyed this decade. 

To the point of this thread: Saban is doing what he was hired to do: Win at all costs. Bama boosters and fans believe that they are the royalty of the SEC. Saban has immense pressure to win and win quickly at Bama. They aren't paying him $4 million to win moral victories. Saban led lowly LSU to the SEC title in year 2 of his regime. There is incredible pressure on him to match that feat. What most people don't realize is that LSU was loaded with NFL talent when Saban took the job. It wasn't nearly as big of a reconstruction job as he faces at Bama.

Bama has always been a program that places wins and championships above everything and I mean everything. There is a reason why they are the all-time dirtiest program.

While schools, including LSU, have all took away scholarships from undeserving players it doesn't make it right. You need to stop following college football and place all your attention towards the NFL if you are a win at all costs person. You must remember that college football is played by young men (emphasize young). They are impressionable and can be manipulated easily. They must be in some way be protected from men of power that get paid millions. The NFL is your game if you like non-guaranteed contracts (or in otherwords one year contracts), no loyalty towards any organization or player, players leaving teams for better pay, and teams cutting players because they just signed a better player.

I like college football for a reason and hope that it stays different than the NFL. It's too close to the NFL now for my comfort and I truly hope that it somehow, someway, stays a game played between Schools by amateur kids trying to improve their lives.

Tammany, I'll retract my putting words in your mouth about Saban...unfair.  I know there are many LSU fans who are quite bitter over Saban.  Many of those same fans have been less than thrilled with Miles, even with his record at LSU.  If you are not one of those fans, then I'll take your word for it.

As far as the Saban vs. Miles thing, I still think Saban is better.  Given a choice, I would choose Saban over Miles.  Saban took over an AL team this season that seems to closely mirror the LSU team he took over a few years back.  Both were underperforming, and both didn't have the talent necessary to go to the next level.  And comparing Saban's and Miles' record this year if fine.  But they are dealing with entirely different talent.  No one can argue that Miles' record at LSU has been very good, but no one can argue that he came in the program with LOOOOAADS of talent.  Saben didn't have that at his start with LSU and doesn't have it at AL.  I guess we'll see what happens in about 3 years once Saban has had the chance to load.  Yes, there is no excuss for AL losing to the inferior non-conference teams.  But heck, Miles lost to Nutt at home.  It's not the same thing, I know, but it's Nutt.  He lost to Rich Brooks too.  Ouch. 

And, yes, AL is coming.  That wasn't to suggest they will dominate, but LSU won't have the same luxury over the next 5 years they had during the last when there wasn't much competition in the west other than AU.  I liken the potential of the west to that of the east over the last 15 years.  The east has consistently had 3 elite teams...FL, TN, and GA.  Each has had their turn at being at the top of the SEC, but one has stood out as being the top program.  That's FL.  I see the combination of LSU, AL, and maybe AR, if BP and Saban stick around, to ultimately mirror the east.  However, I think AL will be the FL of the west based on Saban and tradition.

Regarding athletic scholarships, I have been clear that these athletes have a very good deal, are doing exactly what they want to do, and are not victims as many seem to suggest.  I have also been clear that the terms are skewed to the university, but these athletes have a choice.  This is not Saban's fault...he's just the easy scapgoat.  Saban, like many HC's, is just using the rules to his advantage.  I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying he isn't the only one doing it.  Don't think Nutt, Petrino, Meyer, or even Miles, etc...haven't taken advantage of athletes to get what they want. 

The problem with the terms of the athletic scholarship lies squarely with the ruling body...the NCAA.

[reddogjcss]

Sounds like some kids with big time chips on there shoulders with someting to prove are going to be up for grabes.

[Tammany Tom]

Tammany, I'll retract my putting words in your mouth about Saban...unfair.  I know there are many LSU fans who are quite bitter over Saban.  Many of those same fans have been less than thrilled with Miles, even with his record at LSU.  If you are not one of those fans, then I'll take your word for it.

I'm not one of those fans that hate Saban. He's a major jerk as a person, but as a coach, I liked him and fully appreciated the job he did at LSU. Saban, wrongfully, gets all the credit for rebuilding LSU's football program. It all starts at the top and Saban was not the top at LSU. Mark Emmert is the man that built LSU's football program into a nationally elite program. Emmert took total control of LSU and LSU athletics in 1999. He fired DiNardo, fired Joe Dean (our AD at the time) and hired Saban. Emmert changed the political dynamics at LSU. He rebuilt our athletic foundation. He gave the athletic department a blank check to build all new facilities. He gave Saban a lot of money to hire great asst. coaches (something DiNardo was never given). Mark Emmert, singlehandidly, is the man completely responsible for rebuilding LSU's football program. Saban was given the keys to a sportscar that DiNardo and his predecessors were never given.

All this being said, Saban is a program builder, not a program sustainer. Like I said, I appreciate everything Saban did for LSU, however it was time for him to leave after the 2004 season. You guys and people outside of the LSU booster organizations don't have a clue as to the major turmoil within the LSU football team at the end of the 2004 season. Saban's tactics and bullying ways had come to a head and there was about to be some major transfers by numerous key players if he had stayed and not left for Miami.

This is my opinion on the whole Miles vs Saban issue. Miles is held by fans of other SEC programs to a ridiculous standard. A standard that they do not hold Urban Meyer, Mark Richt, Phil Fulmer, Nick Saban, or Tommy Tuberville to. Urban Meyer inherited a team just as rich in talent as Les Miles and everyone thinks he is the second coming even though he is 1-2 vs Miles and has a worse record and the same number of championships as Miles. Georgia has been more consistent in terms of recruiting than any other program in the SEC this decade. Since 2000, Georgia has recruited higher rated classes, as a whole, than Florida and LSU. Richt has yet to win a National Title and is considered (along with Meyer) as one of the best coaches in the league.

Saban loses to programs like UAB and La-Monroe, and everyone has an excuse for it. If Miles were to lose to these programs he would be crucified by the media. Saban got blown away by Spurrier and Florida the year we won our first SEC Championship at home by the score of 44-15. Saban got blown out by Bama at home 31-0 and Auburn by 31-7 in 2002. Miles never gets blown out, much less at home. If Miles were to get blown out by these scores he, again, would be crucified.  I have witnessed 4 games coached by Saban at LSU where the team quit on him in the second half (Florida in 2001, Bama & Auburn in 2002, and Georgia in 2004). I have never seen the team quit on Miles. Never.

Miles, pure and simple, gets a bad rap because he is very poor in front of the camera. He doesn't come across very well and says some dumb things. People, on the whole, are very shallow. They judge every public person purely on how they come across over the camera. They don't look at their work and compare it to their peers. If people did then they would see that Miles has done everything that anyone could possibly expect him to in terms of being a highly successful football coach.

[SamBuckhart]

I'm sure that Alabama will resolve their numbers problem. Can't remember a time in the past that this has delayed the start of football. Seems to me that former fans of Nick Saban want to stomp his grapes to make a sour whine. Shallow people like me who see that college football is entertainment, see what Coach  "paw-Paw" Hat does in front of the camera. It is fair for a public person to be judged on how they act publicly. Maybe wnen Coach Miles gets through teaching his spring "jogrify" class, he can explain how someone can be so arrogant and stupid and not expect to be villified in public. Sam I Ar-Kansas Am.

[Purple Tiger]

I agree with you on this point, but that has not been the point I've been arguing.  Your response here actually confirms my point, which is this in not a Nick Saban problem, but an NCAA problem...if there is a problem at all.  Saban is simply playing by the rules set forth by the NCAA, whether we or anyone else think it's fair or not.  He's just an easy target by fans.  If AR was in the same situation as AL (what ever that is) with Petrino signing 30something players in this class, this thread wouldn't even exist right now.  We simply don't like Saban.  And let's not forget who started this thread.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, wishes Saban was still at LSU.  Someone who, while he might not admit it, knows that Miles couldn't hold Saban's jock when it comes to coaching and recruiting.  He knows AL is coming.  It will take a few years, but he knows they're coming.  He knows this from his experience with Saban at LSU.  He also knows that we are coming too.  Of course, AL cuts much deeper for LSU fans.

Again, I'll ask the same question I did in a previous post (but not directed at you).  If the terms of these athletic scholarships are so unfair and skewed in favor of the university, then why do athletes continue to line up to take them?  Why do they subject themselves to such a travesty?

 

I agree! How many of you guys would like to have the academic support they have? Who helped you with term papers etc.?

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I'm not one of those fans that hate Saban. He's a major jerk as a person, but as a coach, I liked him and fully appreciated the job he did at LSU. Saban, wrongfully, gets all the credit for rebuilding LSU's football program. It all starts at the top and Saban was not the top at LSU. Mark Emmert is the man that built LSU's football program into a nationally elite program. Emmert took total control of LSU and LSU athletics in 1999. He fired DiNardo, fired Joe Dean (our AD at the time) and hired Saban. Emmert changed the political dynamics at LSU. He rebuilt our athletic foundation. He gave the athletic department a blank check to build all new facilities. He gave Saban a lot of money to hire great asst. coaches (something DiNardo was never given). Mark Emmert, singlehandidly, is the man completely responsible for rebuilding LSU's football program. Saban was given the keys to a sportscar that DiNardo and his predecessors were never given.

All this being said, Saban is a program builder, not a program sustainer. Like I said, I appreciate everything Saban did for LSU, however it was time for him to leave after the 2004 season. You guys and people outside of the LSU booster organizations don't have a clue as to the major turmoil within the LSU football team at the end of the 2004 season. Saban's tactics and bullying ways had come to a head and there was about to be some major transfers by numerous key players if he had stayed and not left for Miami.

This is my opinion on the whole Miles vs Saban issue. Miles is held by fans of other SEC programs to a ridiculous standard. A standard that they do not hold Urban Meyer, Mark Richt, Phil Fulmer, Nick Saban, or Tommy Tuberville to. Urban Meyer inherited a team just as rich in talent as Les Miles and everyone thinks he is the second coming even though he is 1-2 vs Miles and has a worse record and the same number of championships as Miles. Georgia has been more consistent in terms of recruiting than any other program in the SEC this decade. Since 2000, Georgia has recruited higher rated classes, as a whole, than Florida and LSU. Richt has yet to win a National Title and is considered (along with Meyer) as one of the best coaches in the league.

Saban loses to programs like UAB and La-Monroe, and everyone has an excuse for it. If Miles were to lose to these programs he would be crucified by the media. Saban got blown away by Spurrier and Florida the year we won our first SEC Championship at home by the score of 44-15. Saban got blown out by Bama at home 31-0 and Auburn by 31-7 in 2002. Miles never gets blown out, much less at home. If Miles were to get blown out by these scores he, again, would be crucified.  I have witnessed 4 games coached by Saban at LSU where the team quit on him in the second half (Florida in 2001, Bama & Auburn in 2002, and Georgia in 2004). I have never seen the team quit on Miles. Never.

Miles, pure and simple, gets a bad rap because he is very poor in front of the camera. He doesn't come across very well and says some dumb things. People, on the whole, are very shallow. They judge every public person purely on how they come across over the camera. They don't look at their work and compare it to their peers. If people did then they would see that Miles has done everything that anyone could possibly expect him to in terms of being a highly successful football coach.

Fair enough. 

[bugo]

As far as fans, especially Bama fans, most could give a rat's a$$ about the education their players are getting. They are paying a Coach 4 million dollars a year to win. Maybe the local HS guidance counselor is making 40K.

Don't ever use the phrase "Bama fans" and "education" in the same sentence.  It might make your post explode or something.

[RT1941]

Well this maybe true, but the bigger issue IMHO is that the NCAA needs to revist the overall treatment of student athletes.  With all the big time coaching changes and that whole bit etc i think some kind of review needs to take place, some kind of oversight, because strange things are happening, scandals at different Universities, Bush USC, WVU, Mich, etc etc. It just seems like the NCAA is so behind and out of the loop and big time athletics is in a funk.

Here's an issue for the NCAA, While they revisit the overall treatment of student athletes, what about also evaluating the student athletes jail record?  If a student-athlete is arrested for any reason, the scholly can be terminated.  Now, that would raise some eyebrows.

[uams1989]

There are ways that the numbers can work out without anyone being forced out.  For example, 3 Hog QB's left the team since January according to The Morning News of NWA: "But the Razorbacks are no longer thin at quarterback, even though Emert, Irwin and fellow walk-on Brian Reader have each decided to leave the team for various reasons since January."

Players leave, don't make grades, are injured all the time.  Of the 32 in this class, Bama has two that went on the 2007 class numbers, at least two will be put on Bryant scholarships (academic scholarship that Bear Bryant created for kids of former players) which pulls the number down to 28.  There are 2 (and possibly 4) from this class that are likely academic casualties.

As "S" the coach says, "We don't have to balance the checkbook until August."  That should not be a problem, considering the above, and all of this without having to bring the NCAA in to shut the program down!!

I grew up in Arkansas and am an AR alum.  I often joke about my Arkansas education, but even I can figure this out.

Bama has no numbers problems and recruiting services are already predicting Bama will sign 25 to 26 next year.

And for the LSWho fan who would rather have Miles than Saban, Great!  We are happy with our coach and only time will tell whether it was the right decision or not.

[spudhog]

WRONG

this isnt the NFL you dont manage your roster like that, these kids are STUDENT-Athletes you offer a kid a schollie, he does everything right in the class room and on the field. YOU CANNOT just kick him out a year short of graduating because the administration changed, and they want to go in another direction.

That is utter bullshiet.

i don't think he'll be handing pink slips to upper classmen. mainly red shirt frosh and soph's not making it. i do feel sorry for the players.

[bjackson]

if saban does this, then we need to make sure this gets national headlines and lets see what kind of recruiting season he has next year. this is exactly why he wants to keep it quiet. we can help our own recruiting next year if and when he does this that we make darn sure it gets exposed. someone might go over to alabama's board and suggest this ideal so if some kid gets cut their parents will have the ideal of making it public knowledge. oh how i hope saban does this. i already thinks he cheats in recruiting anyway, how can you land the kind of class he did coming off a 7-5 season and do not tell me because he's a great recruiter or he works at it so hard.

[Feralhog]

We all suspected the talent Shula left wasn't very good.  Looking at things from Satan's perspective, he's being paid mega bucks to turn Bama's program around.  It remains to be seen if Saban decides to do this, if it winds up alienating some coaches around the state.  My guess is the folkes in the state of Alabama are so desperate to have championship ball again, they'll ignore just about anything.