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Author Topic: 2013 vs 2018 roster  (Read 1894 times)

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bennyl08

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2013 vs 2018 roster
« on: January 12, 2018, 03:53:46 pm »

Pos  2013     2018
QB: BA So        Kelley So
      Derby Jr     Storey Jr

RB: JWill So      Whaley Jr
      Collins Fr    Hayden So/Hammonds Jr/Williams Fr

FB: Small Sr     Johnson So
      Arinze Jr     Jackson Jr

WR: Horton Sr  Cornelius Sr/Jones So
       Hatcher So   Pettway Jr/Jackson Fr

WR: Herndon Sr  Nance Sr
       Hawkins Fr   Martin Jr/Cross Sr

WR: n/a             Stewart Jr/Barnes So/Warren So

TE: Loewen So                Patton Sr/Cantrell Jr
      Henry Fr/Sprinkle Fr   O'Grady Jr/Gunter So/Gragg Jr

LT: Hurd Sr         Jackson Jr
      Skipper Fr     Wagner Fr/Adcock Fr

LG: Smothers So   Froholdt Sr
      Beck So           Heinrich So/Hays So

C: Swanson Sr       Rogers Sr
    Charpentier Jr      ??

RG: Cook Jr          Gibson Sr
       Boyd Fr           Clary So/Malone Sr

RT: Ollison So        Wallace Sr
      Kirkland Fr       Merrick Jr/Clenin Fr

_________________________

DE: Smith Sr                   Agim
      Lewis Fr/Winston Fr    Bell

DT: Thomas Sr           Capps
       Hodge So             Watts

DT: B. Jones Sr          Guidry/Smith
      Philon Fr               Marshall

DE: Flowers Jr           Taylor
       Wise Jr Fr            Porter

SLB: Mitchell Jr         Ramsey/Richardson
        Spaight Jr         Fisher/AJB

MLB: Jones Sr            Harris
         Ellis Fr              LaFrance/Walker

WLB: Lake Sr            Greenlaw
         Carr Sr             Morgan/Henry

CB: Mitchel Jr                       Pulley
      Washington Jr/Dean Fr      Curtis

CB: Hines So              Challoway
       Collins Fr             Tutt

SS: Gaines So             Ramirez
      Coleman Jr            Brown/Edwards

FS: Bennett Sr            Curl
      Turner Jr               Smith/Hernandez
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 04:36:51 pm by bennyl08 »
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 04:02:55 pm »

Depth chart from 2013 is from the first game of the season. Obviously Kirkland and Skipper ended up starting as guards and Hatcher moved into a starting role later in the season as did Henry.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 04:17:29 pm »

QB: we are better off experience wise and depth wise in 2018 than we were in 2013. We have the hindsight of talent with BA, Kelley's talent remains to be seen.

RB: Coming in with a lot more experience at RB. Again, we have the hindsight of what JWill and Collins accomplished, but with what we know coming into 2018 vs what we knew going into 2013, we are definitely better off here too.

RB: We have more depth. Small was a better fb, but Kendrick and Hayden have proven to be at least very good FB's.

WR: Way, way, way better situated here.

TE: Henry and Sprinkle turned out to be good ones but neither had seen the field. We have a plethora of TE depth that is both talented and experienced.

LT: Hurd didn't have a very high ceiling, but he was good at preventing sacks. Mostly a push here.

LG: We are in way better position here with an All-SEC returning starter and more experienced depth.

C: Definitely in worse position here.

RG: Cook was an experienced guard about as good at Gibson has been. He ended up kicking out to RT though. Probably a small advantage for the 2018 team here though with Gibson and Clary having starting experience.

RT: Big advantage for 2018.
__________________

DE's: Advantage for 2013 for sure with Smith and Flowers starting at the ends. Agim returning keeps this from being a very big advantage, but it's a very solid advantage for 2013.

DT: Byran Jones was good and Thomas wasn't really a starter before but had significant playing time, however, at worst, this is a push, and probably a slight advantage for the 2018 team.

SLB: Spaight eventually became a great player for us, but wasn't yet and wasn't in 2013 either. Ramsey and Richardson both have a good amount of experience playing and both could become great in the future as well.

MLB: Massive advantage for 2018 over 2013. Ellis became a good LB for us, but Harris is arguably the best LB we've had in a long long time. Also, Ellis was a true freshmen here.

WLB: Greenlaw alone makes this a way more advantageous position for 2018 than it was for 2013. Henry and Morgan are at least on par with Lake and Carr already.

CB: This one is a slight advantage for 2018. Mitchel had shown tremendous improvement in practice but hadn't really become an NFL level corner on the field yet. Pulley has shown draftable level play so far and barring a dropoff is likely to be a higher draft pick as well. Hines had shown some promise as a true freshmen in 2012, but lacks the speed of Challoway.

S: Both safety positions are in way, way better shape in 2018 than in 2013. Ramirez is all conference and Curl played well for a true freshmen. Much better athleticism in depth as well.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 04:18:20 pm »

Just a good visual here showing that while Bielema needed to go because he was unable to win, he did at least leave the program in a lot better shape than he found it.
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Hogdomer

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 04:30:55 pm »

Just a good visual here showing that while Bielema needed to go because he was unable to win, he did at least leave the program in a lot better shape than he found it.

Really?  I see that 2013 roster as much better than 2018.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 04:36:30 pm »

Adding in Petrino's 2008 team

Pos 2008            2013            2018
QB: C. Dick Sr    BA So        Kelley So
      N Dick Fr      Derby Jr     Storey Jr

RB: Smith Jr     JWill So      Whaley Jr
      Johnson Fr   Collins Fr    Hayden So/Hammonds Jr/Williams Fr

FB: Bailey Fr     Small Sr     Johnson So
      Durmon Jr   Arinze Jr     Jackson Jr

WR: Miller Jr     Horton Sr  Cornelius Sr/Jones So
       Salters So   Hatcher So   Pettway Jr/Jackson Fr

WR: Childs Fr  Herndon Sr  Nance Sr
       Tuck So   Hawkins Fr   Martin Jr/Cross Sr

WR: Wright Fr  n/a             Stewart Jr/Barnes So/Warren So
       Adams Fr

TE: Williams So  Loewen So                Patton Sr/Cantrell Jr
      Davie Jr      Henry Fr/Sprinkle Fr   O'Grady Jr/Gunter So/Gragg Jr

LT: Dominguez So  Hurd Sr         Jackson Jr
      Aguirre Jr        Skipper Fr     Wagner Fr/Adcock Fr

LG: Grayson So   Smothers So   Froholdt Sr
      Aguirre Jr     Beck So           Heinrich So/Hays So

C: Luigs Sr  Swanson Sr       Rogers Sr
    Oxner Fr  Charpentier Jr      ??

RG: Love So  Cook Jr          Gibson Sr
       Cook Fr  Boyd Fr           Clary So/Malone Sr

RT: Valdez     Sr  Ollison So        Wallace Sr
      Freeman Fr    Kirkland Fr       Merrick Jr/Clenin Fr

_________________________

DE: Robinson Sr Smith Sr                   Agim
      Bequette Fr  Lewis Fr/Winston Fr    Bell

DT: Mitchell Sr  Thomas Sr           Capps
      Stadther Fr Hodge So             Watts

DT: Sheppard Jr  B. Jones Sr          Guidry/Smith
      Askew Fr      Philon Fr               Marshall

DE: Davis Jr      Flowers Jr           Taylor
      Ambrose So Wise Jr Fr            Porter

SLB: Smith Fr  Mitchell Jr         Ramsey/Richardson
        Battle Fr  Spaight Jr         Fisher/AJB

MLB: Franklin Fr  Jones Sr            Harris
         Love So     Ellis Fr              LaFrance/Walker

WLB: Leandre Sr  Lake Sr            Greenlaw
         Nelson Fr   Carr Sr             Morgan/Henry

CB: Love Sr         Mitchel Jr                       Pulley
      Broadway So Washington Jr/Dean Fr      Curtis

CB: Madison So  Hines So              Challoway
       Thomas Fr  Collins Fr             Tutt

SS: Harris Jr          Gaines So             Ramirez
      Washington Sr Coleman Jr            Brown/Edwards

FS: Ford Fr       Bennett Sr            Curl
      Johnson Jr  Turner Jr               Smith/Hernandez
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 04:39:15 pm »

Really?  I see that 2013 roster as much better than 2018.

How so?

Which position groups were in a better situation coming into 2013 than 2018 and most importantly, why were they in a better position?

How much of the better 2013 roster is from true freshmen that you see as opposed to players left from the previous staff? How much are you projecting what the players were eventually able to do much later onto what they had actually accomplished before 2013 started?
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Tigaman

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 05:17:18 pm »

QB - You have to remember that Bielema ran off Brandon Mitchell which ultimately really hurt the 2013 team. With Mitchell, the 2013 probably would have been the best of the 3 groups. Without him, it is the worst because Derby was the worst QB to see any playing time since the beginning of the Petrino era. 2018 > 2008 > 2013

RB - 2018 is the deepest of the 3 teams. Micheal Smith was really but there wasn't anybody behind. If we had a good backup in 2008 that team goes bowling. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

WR - While the freshman from 2008 would become really good a few years later, the fact that they were forced to see significant playing time shows how bad of shape that position was. There are a lot of bodies for 2018 none of them have really done anything. 2013 > 2018 > 2008

TE - DJ Williams won the John Mackey Award and led the 2008 team in receptions. Like WRs, 2018 has a lot of bodies but they haven't really done anything largely because of misuse by the previous staff. 2013 has some really good players but they were very young. 2008 > 2018 >2013

OL - While the 2018 OL returns alot of experience, it is from one of the worst OL in Arkansas history. The 2008 return some good players but they were a poor fit for Petrino's system resulting in a huge amount of sacks allowed. The 2013 OL would end up starting 2 true freshmen. 2013 > 2008 > 2018

DL - Like the 2018 OL, the 2018 DL was also really bad the previous year. The 2013 DL had some really good players including a few that are currently starting in the NFL. The 2008 played a lot of young players that would later become the backbone of the Petrino defenses. 2013 > 2008 > 2018

LB - 2008 was decimated from graduation and off the field issues. 2018 returns alot of experience but from one of the worst defenses in Arkansas history. Don't really remember 2013. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

DB - 2008 was forced to play a lot of young guys. 2018 returns a lot of experience but from one of the worst defenses in Arkansas history. Don't really remember 2013. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

Overall, 2018 returns a lot of experience but from units that were either really bad or didn't really standout. That is the opposite from the 2008 team which returned very little experience and was forced to play young guys across the board. The 2013 team had way too much talent to go 3-9.

A lot can change between and the beginning of the 2018 season. We haven't even finished are recruiting class.
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From Tusk Till Dawn

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 05:20:44 pm »

Just a good visual here showing that while Bielema needed to go because he was unable to win, he did at least leave the program in a lot better shape than he found it.
Great post and great analysis.  We tend to compare as you said based on hindsight.  But most of those players on that squad were untested at the time.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 06:28:03 pm »

QB - You have to remember that Bielema ran off Brandon Mitchell which ultimately really hurt the 2013 team. With Mitchell, the 2013 probably would have been the best of the 3 groups. Without him, it is the worst because Derby was the worst QB to see any playing time since the beginning of the Petrino era. 2018 > 2008 > 2013

In what world did Bielema run Mitchell off? BM was inconsistent with his accuracy and threw more picks than BA, so Bielema went with BA as the starter. Not many coaches would have done anything differently. Bielema tried to get Mitchell to stay even, but as a graduated senior, BM wanted to start so he left.

I do agree with you that 2013 was the worse position at QB, but 2008 had a senior qb with multiple years of experience, so I might put 2008 ahead of 2018.

Quote
RB - 2018 is the deepest of the 3 teams. Micheal Smith was really but there wasn't anybody behind. If we had a good backup in 2008 that team goes bowling. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

Agreed. Dennis ended up being a good back, but he was really small, and too small as a freshmen to help shoulder more of the load sadly.

Quote
WR - While the freshman from 2008 would become really good a few years later, the fact that they were forced to see significant playing time shows how bad of shape that position was. There are a lot of bodies for 2018 none of them have really done anything. 2013 > 2018 > 2008

Definitely disagree here. I'd probably go 2018>2008>2013. Jared Cornelius hasn't done anything??? Or did you forget that he was coming back for his senior season? The group had a rough time in 2017 for sure, but in terms of recruiting rankings and offer lists, they are one of the best we've had in a long time. They've also done a lot more than the 2013 group had done. Hawkins had yet to see the field (and basically never did in the future either). Horton and Herndon had combined career receptions up to that point that an oklahoma noodler could still count on one hand. Hatcher was a 4* receiver, but hadn't done anything yet either. As for 2008, Lucas Miller and London Crawford (not sure why he wasn't on the depth chart, maybe injured for that specific game) had a combined 26 receptions, 440 yards, and 6 td's coming into the 2016 season which is a lot more experience than 2013 had.

Quote
TE - DJ Williams won the John Mackey Award and led the 2008 team in receptions. Like WRs, 2018 has a lot of bodies but they haven't really done anything largely because of misuse by the previous staff. 2013 has some really good players but they were very young. 2008 > 2018 >2013

DJ Williams went on to win the Mackey award after the 2010 season had started. How sure are you that nobody on our roster right now will win the Mackey award in 2019 or 2020? You can't do this exercise with hindsight.

Williams had 5 receptions for 94 yards and 0 td's coming into that season. Patton alone has 11 rec for 189 yards coming into this season. For all we know, he'll lead this team in receptions and win the Mackey award this year. However, at this stage, he has been more productive than DJ Williams was coming into the season. Cantrell, O'Grady, and Patton have a combined 61 receptions for 589 yards and 8 total td's coming into 2018.

Quote
OL - While the 2018 OL returns alot of experience, it is from one of the worst OL in Arkansas history. The 2008 return some good players but they were a poor fit for Petrino's system resulting in a huge amount of sacks allowed. The 2013 OL would end up starting 2 true freshmen. 2013 > 2008 > 2018

Disagree here. 2013 has to be at the bottom. It had to start 2 true freshmen because of how terrible the quality of OL players inherited were. 2008 didn't start any true freshmen and Petrino barely had to start any of his own OL players. You look at that two deep and Nutt's OL players went on to be the main guys for most of Petrino's tenure here. Swanson and Bailey were about the only two that I can think of off the top of my head. Peacock as well. Petrino had Swasnon for one year, Smothers and Cook were the only Petrino players to start for Bielema after that. I'd have to go 2008>2018>2013. Morris won't have to start any true freshmen on the OL in 2018. It is a very real possibility that by the time 2020 rolls around, 4/5 starters on the OL will still be Bielema recruits.

Quote
DL - Like the 2018 OL, the 2018 DL was also really bad the previous year. The 2013 DL had some really good players including a few that are currently starting in the NFL. The 2008 played a lot of young players that would later become the backbone of the Petrino defenses. 2013 > 2008 > 2018

Agree with 2013 being in front for sure. I'd flip 2008 and 2018 though. I think Agim and Capps alone equal what was given for 2008. I think the potential/known production of guys like Taylor, Porter, Smith, Guidry, and Marshall put that class over the top. Again, Stadther who I went to HS with ended up being a starter for us in 2008 as a true freshmen. He was a 2* player out of HS. He wasn't super athletic, just big and strong and ended up being a significant player (not sure how many starts he had, but snaps wise, he was not too different from the actual starter if Stadther didn't start).

Overall, I think both 2018 and 2008 were pretty close.

Quote
LB - 2008 was decimated from graduation and off the field issues. 2018 returns alot of experience but from one of the worst defenses in Arkansas history. Don't really remember 2013. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

LB play was far from the reason for the defensive numbers though. We have all conference Harris leading the group. Greenlaw is a lot like Ellis in that he doesn't make a lot of plays, but is a consistent tackler. That either of those players puts 2018 >>>>> any of the other years. The LB corp heading into 2013 and 2008 is splitting hairs about which was was more atrocious though I agree with your ranking here. 2008 had the benefit of having Nelson and Franklin as true freshmen added to the group. Both very exceptional LB'ers for us and Franklin is one of the most underrated defensive players that I can remember. Guy was very athletic and very productive and very forgotten among the fans. 2013 had some more experience that 2018. Lake was solid and had some experience. Looking at the pro day, Price Holmes was one of the more elite athletes we have ever had. 10'5" broad jump for a LB? 35.5" vertical? 6.85 3 cone? However, he just never saw the field much under either coaching staff and I can only assume there was probably a good reason for that. Not every athlete is truly a football player.

Quote
DB - 2008 was forced to play a lot of young guys. 2018 returns a lot of experience but from one of the worst defenses in Arkansas history. Don't really remember 2013. 2018 > 2013 > 2008

Not a lot of comments there, but I'd switch 2008 and 2013. 2018 returns an all conference player in Ramirez who played outstanding last year. It returns a heckuva group of young players in Curtis, Curl, Brown, and Challoway. Think the 2013 DL group that included Wise, Taiwan, Winston, and Lewis along with Smith, Flowers, Thomas, and Philon. Those first four names were all still unknowns heading into 2013 along with Philon. Thomas had always flashed potential, but really kicked it up a notch his senior year in 2013 playing very well before injury. The 2018 DB group includes known studs in the likes of Ramirez and Pulley, very talented group of db's mentioned above, and some promising but yet to be seen due to older good players above them with Micah, Hernandez, Edwards, and Tutt (Tutt's been seen a bit, but not much). 2013 had Mitchel who ended up being NFL talent, but hadn't quite shown it on the field yet. Hines had shown some promise as a freshmen. 2013 included several safeties that would go on to be staples of the Bielema era, but safety play had been overall a major area of weakness and was one of the positions that actually was much slower than it should be. 2008 didn't have a lot of experience, but there was a lot of talent. Tramain Thomas was a stud of a safety for us, Madison, Gatson, and Broadway became solid staple corners for us. However, both the deficiencies of the safeties of 2013 and the good play of the corners and eventual safety Thomas of 2008 is using hindsight. In terms of what we knew going into the seasons, it's 6 one way, half a dozen the other for those two years with 2018 easily ahead.

Quote
Overall, 2018 returns a lot of experience but from units that were either really bad or didn't really standout. That is the opposite from the 2008 team which returned very little experience and was forced to play young guys across the board. The 2013 team had way too much talent to go 3-9.

A lot can change between and the beginning of the 2018 season. We haven't even finished are recruiting class.

Think you are judging some on the units and ignoring some the quality play from individuals, particularly on defense. Similarly, ranking the TE's of 2008 ahead based on what DJ would do later is kind of missing the point of this exercise.

I also think that 2017 wasn't a representative year. Take Auburn as a case study. Went 3-9 in 2012 and then 12-2 in 2013, losing in the natty having gone something like 8-4 in 2011 (don't remember exactly what the 2011 record was). Clearly they weren't a team with 3 win talent in 2012 even before knowing what happened in 2013. To me, similar is pretty obviously true for the hogs in 2017. Not saying that we go to the playoffs here in 2018, but if we get better coaching, we'll be back up in the 7-9 wins next season without much fuss.
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Al Boarland

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 06:46:26 pm »

In what world did Bielema run Mitchell off? BM was inconsistent with his accuracy and threw more picks than BA, so Bielema went with BA as the starter. Not many coaches would have done anything differently. Bielema tried to get Mitchell to stay even, but as a graduated senior, BM wanted to start so he left.

I do agree with you that 2013 was the worse position at QB, but 2008 had a senior qb with multiple years of experience, so I might put 2008 ahead of 2018.

Agreed. Dennis ended up being a good back, but he was really small, and too small as a freshmen to help shoulder more of the load sadly.

Definitely disagree here. I'd probably go 2018>2008>2013. Jared Cornelius hasn't done anything??? Or did you forget that he was coming back for his senior season? The group had a rough time in 2017 for sure, but in terms of recruiting rankings and offer lists, they are one of the best we've had in a long time. They've also done a lot more than the 2013 group had done. Hawkins had yet to see the field (and basically never did in the future either). Horton and Herndon had combined career receptions up to that point that an oklahoma noodler could still count on one hand. Hatcher was a 4* receiver, but hadn't done anything yet either. As for 2008, Lucas Miller and London Crawford (not sure why he wasn't on the depth chart, maybe injured for that specific game) had a combined 26 receptions, 440 yards, and 6 td's coming into the 2016 season which is a lot more experience than 2013 had.

DJ Williams went on to win the Mackey award after the 2010 season had started. How sure are you that nobody on our roster right now will win the Mackey award in 2019 or 2020? You can't do this exercise with hindsight.

Williams had 5 receptions for 94 yards and 0 td's coming into that season. Patton alone has 11 rec for 189 yards coming into this season. For all we know, he'll lead this team in receptions and win the Mackey award this year. However, at this stage, he has been more productive than DJ Williams was coming into the season. Cantrell, O'Grady, and Patton have a combined 61 receptions for 589 yards and 8 total td's coming into 2018.

Disagree here. 2013 has to be at the bottom. It had to start 2 true freshmen because of how terrible the quality of OL players inherited were. 2008 didn't start any true freshmen and Petrino barely had to start any of his own OL players. You look at that two deep and Nutt's OL players went on to be the main guys for most of Petrino's tenure here. Swanson and Bailey were about the only two that I can think of off the top of my head. Peacock as well. Petrino had Swasnon for one year, Smothers and Cook were the only Petrino players to start for Bielema after that. I'd have to go 2008>2018>2013. Morris won't have to start any true freshmen on the OL in 2018. It is a very real possibility that by the time 2020 rolls around, 4/5 starters on the OL will still be Bielema recruits.

Agree with 2013 being in front for sure. I'd flip 2008 and 2018 though. I think Agim and Capps alone equal what was given for 2008. I think the potential/known production of guys like Taylor, Porter, Smith, Guidry, and Marshall put that class over the top. Again, Stadther who I went to HS with ended up being a starter for us in 2008 as a true freshmen. He was a 2* player out of HS. He wasn't super athletic, just big and strong and ended up being a significant player (not sure how many starts he had, but snaps wise, he was not too different from the actual starter if Stadther didn't start).

Overall, I think both 2018 and 2008 were pretty close.

LB play was far from the reason for the defensive numbers though. We have all conference Harris leading the group. Greenlaw is a lot like Ellis in that he doesn't make a lot of plays, but is a consistent tackler. That either of those players puts 2018 >>>>> any of the other years. The LB corp heading into 2013 and 2008 is splitting hairs about which was was more atrocious though I agree with your ranking here. 2008 had the benefit of having Nelson and Franklin as true freshmen added to the group. Both very exceptional LB'ers for us and Franklin is one of the most underrated defensive players that I can remember. Guy was very athletic and very productive and very forgotten among the fans. 2013 had some more experience that 2018. Lake was solid and had some experience. Looking at the pro day, Price Holmes was one of the more elite athletes we have ever had. 10'5" broad jump for a LB? 35.5" vertical? 6.85 3 cone? However, he just never saw the field much under either coaching staff and I can only assume there was probably a good reason for that. Not every athlete is truly a football player.

Not a lot of comments there, but I'd switch 2008 and 2013. 2018 returns an all conference player in Ramirez who played outstanding last year. It returns a heckuva group of young players in Curtis, Curl, Brown, and Challoway. Think the 2013 DL group that included Wise, Taiwan, Winston, and Lewis along with Smith, Flowers, Thomas, and Philon. Those first four names were all still unknowns heading into 2013 along with Philon. Thomas had always flashed potential, but really kicked it up a notch his senior year in 2013 playing very well before injury. The 2018 DB group includes known studs in the likes of Ramirez and Pulley, very talented group of db's mentioned above, and some promising but yet to be seen due to older good players above them with Micah, Hernandez, Edwards, and Tutt (Tutt's been seen a bit, but not much). 2013 had Mitchel who ended up being NFL talent, but hadn't quite shown it on the field yet. Hines had shown some promise as a freshmen. 2013 included several safeties that would go on to be staples of the Bielema era, but safety play had been overall a major area of weakness and was one of the positions that actually was much slower than it should be. 2008 didn't have a lot of experience, but there was a lot of talent. Tramain Thomas was a stud of a safety for us, Madison, Gatson, and Broadway became solid staple corners for us. However, both the deficiencies of the safeties of 2013 and the good play of the corners and eventual safety Thomas of 2008 is using hindsight. In terms of what we knew going into the seasons, it's 6 one way, half a dozen the other for those two years with 2018 easily ahead.

Think you are judging some on the units and ignoring some the quality play from individuals, particularly on defense. Similarly, ranking the TE's of 2008 ahead based on what DJ would do later is kind of missing the point of this exercise.

I also think that 2017 wasn't a representative year. Take Auburn as a case study. Went 3-9 in 2012 and then 12-2 in 2013, losing in the natty having gone something like 8-4 in 2011 (don't remember exactly what the 2011 record was). Clearly they weren't a team with 3 win talent in 2012 even before knowing what happened in 2013. To me, similar is pretty obviously true for the hogs in 2017. Not saying that we go to the playoffs here in 2018, but if we get better coaching, we'll be back up in the 7-9 wins next season without much fuss.

6/7 wins. You can’t just look at the UofA roster.
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kaiserhog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 07:52:52 pm »

Pos  2013     2018
QB: BA So        Kelley So
      Derby Jr     Storey Jr

RB: JWill So      Whaley Jr
      Collins Fr    Hayden So/Hammonds Jr/Williams Fr

FB: Small Sr     Johnson So
      Arinze Jr     Jackson Jr

WR: Horton Sr  Cornelius Sr/Jones So
       Hatcher So   Pettway Jr/Jackson Fr

WR: Herndon Sr  Nance Sr
       Hawkins Fr   Martin Jr/Cross Sr

WR: n/a             Stewart Jr/Barnes So/Warren So

TE: Loewen So                Patton Sr/Cantrell Jr
      Henry Fr/Sprinkle Fr   O'Grady Jr/Gunter So/Gragg Jr

LT: Hurd Sr         Jackson Jr
      Skipper Fr     Wagner Fr/Adcock Fr

LG: Smothers So   Froholdt Sr
      Beck So           Heinrich So/Hays So

C: Swanson Sr       Rogers Sr
    Charpentier Jr      ??

RG: Cook Jr          Gibson Sr
       Boyd Fr           Clary So/Malone Sr

RT: Ollison So        Wallace Sr
      Kirkland Fr       Merrick Jr/Clenin Fr

_________________________

DE: Smith Sr                   Agim
      Lewis Fr/Winston Fr    Bell

DT: Thomas Sr           Capps
       Hodge So             Watts

DT: B. Jones Sr          Guidry/Smith
      Philon Fr               Marshall

DE: Flowers Jr           Taylor
       Wise Jr Fr            Porter

SLB: Mitchell Jr         Ramsey/Richardson
        Spaight Jr         Fisher/AJB

MLB: Jones Sr            Harris
         Ellis Fr              LaFrance/Walker

WLB: Lake Sr            Greenlaw
         Carr Sr             Morgan/Henry

CB: Mitchel Jr                       Pulley
      Washington Jr/Dean Fr      Curtis

CB: Hines So              Challoway
       Collins Fr             Tutt

SS: Gaines So             Ramirez
      Coleman Jr            Brown/Edwards

FS: Bennett Sr            Curl
      Turner Jr               Smith/Hernandez
I don't think I've ever seen a post more wrong.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 07:59:53 pm »

I don't think I've ever seen a post more wrong.

Didya quote the wrong post there, buddy?

That is literally just the official depth chart released from the university, returning starters in bold, and a projected depth chart with returning starters in bold.

Impossible for the depth chart to be wrong by definition. Did I miss a returning starter? Hardly think that would lead to the "most wrong" post. Also impossible for the projected depth chart to be considered wrong as it is projection and nothing more. You can disagree with what the 2018 depth chart will look like. I can almost promise you that it won't be exactly as I posted. But you won't find many people guessing a depth chart that looks terribly different.
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kaiserhog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 08:04:53 pm »

You can copy and paste but cannot evaluate football talent.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 08:08:58 pm »

You can copy and paste but cannot evaluate football talent.
And you can? Benny is one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board. He provides quality stats when they are needed and gives quality opinions. He has shown that he understands the game of football.

What evaluation do you have that could give a good counter argument to anything he posted above?
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kaiserhog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 08:15:29 pm »

You really think 18 DL is better than 13 DL?  Cole Kelly better than Brandon Allen?
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 08:48:45 pm »

You really think 18 DL is better than 13 DL?  Cole Kelly better than Brandon Allen?

Then clearly you have reading comprehension issues. You will never see a post where I have ever said that the DL talent Morris is inheriting is better than what Bielema inherited and you don't even have to leave this thread to find me saying exactly the opposite on multiple occassions.

If you think that going into a season with a RS sophomore qb who went 5 of 21 (42.9%) for 49 yards (3.8 ypa) 1 td and 3 interceptions through 5 games is a better situation than going into a season with a RS sophomore who went 87 of 151 (57.6%) for 1038 yards (6.9 ypa) with 8 td's and 4 int's then maybe you are the one who doesn't understand football. That or you are comparing what BA did as a senior compared to what Kelley did as a RS freshmen and again lack the understanding of what this thread is about.

Sad troll is sad.
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lakecityhog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 10:52:51 pm »

Benny, while I appreciate what you are doing it really doesn't matter how the two squads match-up. What matters is does the POTENTIAL 2018 squad have the talent and DESIRE to outplay the 2017 squad. I say potential squad because we really don't know yet which of the returning 2017 guys will be on the 2108 squad.

We have the gloom&doom crowd calling the players trash and terrible and darn based on the record from 2017. I think they are wrong and badly wrong!

Think about this, we have 5 returning starters on the O'Line and if Merrick is as good as many think he may push one of them for their spot. We have 4* RS Soph coming back and 4 solid RS Freshmen that are probably ready to hit the field, plus Clary coming off an injury.

We have a D'Line made up of a 5* and the rest 4* players backed up by 3* guys. We will have some guys moving back to the D'Line that have the potential to become those disruptive DE's that the Chavis defense is famous for.

The skill positions are pretty much LOADED!!!

The 2 keys for our season is does Morris and his young offensive staff get up to SEC speed quickly enough and do the KEY team leaders buy in to the new staff. IF those 2 things happen we can have a pretty darned good season to kick off the new regime
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JIHawg

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 10:54:19 pm »

Good piece of work Benny.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 09:02:19 am »

Thanks Benny +1
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 09:04:08 am »

Very nice work Benny.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 09:32:29 am »

Really?  I see that 2013 roster as much better than 2018.

Agreed 100% not even close
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 09:45:21 am »

Great thread Benny.

I agree. Based on inherited talent and depth, the potential for a great first season with Morris is much better than first seasons with Petrino and Bielema. Add to that the easiest schedule in a while and we may be pleasantly surprised with the first season.
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 05:11:53 pm »

Benny, while I appreciate what you are doing it really doesn't matter how the two squads match-up. What matters is does the POTENTIAL 2018 squad have the talent and DESIRE to outplay the 2017 squad. I say potential squad because we really don't know yet which of the returning 2017 guys will be on the 2108 squad.

Disagree that it doesn't matter.

There are 4 things at play when it comes to how successful season will be. In no particular order

1. Talent of the actual team. Your Jimmy's and Joe's.
2. Talent of the coaching staff. Your X's and O's. 
3. Chemistry. Doesn't matter how good of play callers your coaching staff are if they can't call plays that will work with your current players. Doesn't matter how talented your players are if they don't buy into what the coaches are selling. Teams needs leadership among the players and at the HC position. Need chemistry among the players pushing each other forward and willing to go to war for each other.
4. Talent of competition. How our opponents stack up with the above 3 as well. I.e. the Cleveland Browns who went 0-16 this year in the NFL could beat Bama 100-0 this year.

EDIT: Forgot to tie the middle to the first. Obviously bullet point number 1 doesn't guarantee anything. However, any one of those things falls apart, and a very good season becomes impossible. Doesn't matter if we have all star coaching staff if we don't have players. Doesn't matter if we have an all star coaching staff and players but no chemistry. Good players with good chemistry will still fail without good coaching.

Even Morris has zero idea how talented he will be as a coach in the SEC, much less anybody on a message board, so point number 2 is wait and see. FotH is probably the only poster here with much insight into the chemistry and that is just one person's perspective. It is actually a full time job to analyze the talent of opposing teams. And with so many new coaching staffs out there, that's basically an exercise in futility. About all we can say with any hope of accuracy is the raw, physical potential talent of our players. How our players will respond mentally will IMO big the biggest factor in the upcoming season's success or lackthereof. However, it's useful to have a baseline analysis of talent to at least have something to go off of.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 05:22:04 pm by bennyl08 »
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PorkSoda

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 05:36:49 pm »

Agreed 100% not even close
so you don't think we will be able to win more than 3 games next year?

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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2018, 05:37:47 pm »

Agreed 100% not even close

Hogdomer never explained why, perhaps you will.

Keep in mind, you can't apply hindsight to the analysis. Can't even really talk about the true freshmen since we don't even know who half of our incoming class will be yet.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2018, 05:40:18 pm »

Really?  I see that 2013 roster as much better than 2018.

No.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 05:53:13 pm »

Good work Benny, the people who are argumentative can only see what the 2013 players ended up doing vs what the 2018 players have accomplished at this time. So they see Spaight v Ramsey and think oh there is no comparison, but they aren't thinking he had yet to play a down of D1 FB and he was not very good his 1st season. So it is no comparison Greenlaw/Ramsey much> than 2013 Spaight!
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 06:08:45 pm »

Thanks for doing the legwork Benny, I am hopeful for next season and think we have more talent on these teams then has shown in recent years.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 06:11:36 pm »

You really think 18 DL is better than 13 DL?  Cole Kelly better than Brandon Allen?
Your not looking at Wise and Philon as FR.  They ended up really good, but going into that year they were FR.  I would give CK this year an advantage over BA in 2013.  CK has more experience than BA had at that time.

You have to compare the units as they were entering the year not what they turned into. 2018 we are more experienced; that does not mean these players are better, but more experienced going into the year. 
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DeltaBoy

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2018, 06:42:54 pm »

We are better off!
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PorkSoda

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2018, 06:45:45 pm »

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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2018, 07:12:58 pm »

Good work Benny, the people who are argumentative can only see what the 2013 players ended up doing vs what the 2018 players have accomplished at this time. So they see Spaight v Ramsey and think oh there is no comparison, but they aren't thinking he had yet to play a down of D1 FB and he was not very good his 1st season. So it is no comparison Greenlaw/Ramsey much> than 2013 Spaight!

I have no issue with people being argumentative. I enjoy a good debate. I just don't entertain trolls and note that it's pointless to argue hindsight in one case to what hasn't even been set up in another.

For example, somebody could make the argument that because the 2013 DE, DT, C, and LT were better, then those are the most important positions and thus, even if 2018 is in better shape at every other position, 2013 was better situated because of advantages at those key positions. Line play is important and 2013 has the advantage there at 6/9 starting positions.

Heck, you could even argue that a team having no experience is better off than a team returning a lot of experience if the returning experience wasn't any good and therefore, Bielema was in better shape by having room to recruit more freshmen than Morris. I think you'd be very wrong in making that argument, but at least it is an argument.

Many of the posters here don't want to make an argument and debate. They just want to troll and run away same for a handful.
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IronHog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2018, 07:38:57 pm »

QB: we are better off experience wise and depth wise in 2018 than we were in 2013. We have the hindsight of talent with BA, Kelley's talent remains to be seen.

RB: Coming in with a lot more experience at RB. Again, we have the hindsight of what JWill and Collins accomplished, but with what we know coming into 2018 vs what we knew going into 2013, we are definitely better off here too.

RB: We have more depth. Small was a better fb, but Kendrick and Hayden have proven to be at least very good FB's.

WR: Way, way, way better situated here.

TE: Henry and Sprinkle turned out to be good ones but neither had seen the field. We have a plethora of TE depth that is both talented and experienced.

LT: Hurd didn't have a very high ceiling, but he was good at preventing sacks. Mostly a push here.

LG: We are in way better position here with an All-SEC returning starter and more experienced depth.

C: Definitely in worse position here.

RG: Cook was an experienced guard about as good at Gibson has been. He ended up kicking out to RT though. Probably a small advantage for the 2018 team here though with Gibson and Clary having starting experience.

RT: Big advantage for 2018.
__________________

DE's: Advantage for 2013 for sure with Smith and Flowers starting at the ends. Agim returning keeps this from being a very big advantage, but it's a very solid advantage for 2013.

DT: Byran Jones was good and Thomas wasn't really a starter before but had significant playing time, however, at worst, this is a push, and probably a slight advantage for the 2018 team.

SLB: Spaight eventually became a great player for us, but wasn't yet and wasn't in 2013 either. Ramsey and Richardson both have a good amount of experience playing and both could become great in the future as well.

MLB: Massive advantage for 2018 over 2013. Ellis became a good LB for us, but Harris is arguably the best LB we've had in a long long time. Also, Ellis was a true freshmen here.

WLB: Greenlaw alone makes this a way more advantageous position for 2018 than it was for 2013. Henry and Morgan are at least on par with Lake and Carr already.

CB: This one is a slight advantage for 2018. Mitchel had shown tremendous improvement in practice but hadn't really become an NFL level corner on the field yet. Pulley has shown draftable level play so far and barring a dropoff is likely to be a higher draft pick as well. Hines had shown some promise as a true freshmen in 2012, but lacks the speed of Challoway.

S: Both safety positions are in way, way better shape in 2018 than in 2013. Ramirez is all conference and Curl played well for a true freshmen. Much better athleticism in depth as well.


2013 had very good linebackers that B.B. ran off and are not on the 2 deep.


1st warning sign of what was to come.
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swineology

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2018, 07:49:33 pm »

Great analysis Benny

Thanks!
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2018, 09:23:31 am »

Really?  I see that 2013 roster as much better than 2018.
Benny did a great job of breaking it down, have at it.

This just reminds me a lot of when Ford left and HDN stepped on campus
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2018, 10:55:44 am »

Benny did a great job of breaking it down, have at it.

This just reminds me a lot of when Ford left and HDN stepped on campus
I feel exactly the same, Ford left HDN a loaded roster, and this one mirrors that pretty well IMO
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2018, 11:20:21 am »

I feel exactly the same, Ford left HDN a loaded roster, and this one mirrors that pretty well IMO
For the most part I agree, the key difference is at QB.  Cole is not in the category as Clint.  Also, we do not have Joe Ferguson as a coach.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2018, 12:08:50 pm »

Benny did a great job of breaking it down, have at it.



A very biased breakdown
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2018, 12:15:51 pm »


A very biased breakdown
Only if you don't understand the premise.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2018, 12:36:03 pm »

Only if you don't understand the premise.

Premise of pumping up B.B. with biased depth chart analysis
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2018, 12:47:05 pm »

Premise of pumping up B.B. with biased depth chart analysis
What's biased about it? He's looking at the rosters when a new coach took over. Not 2 years down the road. He is correct. If anyone is being biased it is you. Trying to compare where players from 2013 ended up and not what they were at that point in time.
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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2018, 12:58:15 pm »

What's biased about it? He's looking at the rosters when a new coach took over. Not 2 years down the road. He is correct. If anyone is being biased it is you. Trying to compare where players from 2013 ended up and not what they were at that point in time.


That’s the post #UnCommon purge roster....not what B.B. was left for starters


He got Ollison out of there and his NWA boy moved over soon enough
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2018, 02:08:17 pm »


That’s the post #UnCommon purge roster....not what B.B. was left for starters


He got Ollison out of there and his NWA boy moved over soon enough

It's not a biased roster comparison, I'm using the official one as early into the season as I could find. But since that triggered you apparently, I'll do my best to figure in some of the other players.

Otha Peters would have been among our better LB's of the past decade. Right up there with Jerry Franklin and Spaight, IMO but still behind Harris. That's one guy. AJ Turner was another guy who wasn't on the depth chart. He was about on par with Hayden Henry and Grant Morgan. Doesn't remotely come close to tipping the scales in favor of 2013. Even if Otha and AJ stayed, that was a really bad LB group overall.

WR: Keonte Minor and Meckale Mckay were the only two ones there. Minor had been here long enough to show that he wasn't going to see the field no matter who was the coach. McKay was definitely a loss. Even with the transfer, he's made it into the NFL. However, that is again with hindsight. He was our best receiver behind Hamilton, but only had about 300 yards from 2012. Returning Cornelius and Nance is immediately way better than what we returned before, much less Jones, Martin, Jackson, Stewart, Warren, Barnes, Cross, and so on. Not even remotely close how much better we are off at WR.

QB: BM would have transferred virtually no matter what. You can count on one hand the number of coaches who would have played BM over BA given their spring performances.

Anybody else I'm missing? There was Kelvin Fisher Jr, guy who had one of the more impressive HS highlights I've seen, but he hadn't shown anything here yet, wasn't particularly highly recruited, and with the benefit of hindsight didn't do much after us either. Some people were excited about Whitehurst though I never really saw it. He also hadn't shown anything here, wasn't very highly recruited, and with the benefit of hindsight, didn't do anything after us either.

Including all those other people, we are still in much better shape overall today than we were 5 years ago in terms of roster talent and depth.
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IronHog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2018, 02:14:02 pm »

It's not a biased roster comparison, I'm using the official one as early into the season as I could find. But since that triggered you apparently, I'll do my best to figure in some of the other players.

Otha Peters would have been among our better LB's of the past decade. Right up there with Jerry Franklin and Spaight, IMO but still behind Harris. That's one guy. AJ Turner was another guy who wasn't on the depth chart. He was about on par with Hayden Henry and Grant Morgan. Doesn't remotely come close to tipping the scales in favor of 2013. Even if Otha and AJ stayed, that was a really bad LB group overall.

WR: Keonte Minor and Meckale Mckay were the only two ones there. Minor had been here long enough to show that he wasn't going to see the field no matter who was the coach. McKay was definitely a loss. Even with the transfer, he's made it into the NFL. However, that is again with hindsight. He was our best receiver behind Hamilton, but only had about 300 yards from 2012. Returning Cornelius and Nance is immediately way better than what we returned before, much less Jones, Martin, Jackson, Stewart, Warren, Barnes, Cross, and so on. Not even remotely close how much better we are off at WR.

QB: BM would have transferred virtually no matter what. You can count on one hand the number of coaches who would have played BM over BA given their spring performances.

Anybody else I'm missing? There was Kelvin Fisher Jr, guy who had one of the more impressive HS highlights I've seen, but he hadn't shown anything here yet, wasn't particularly highly recruited, and with the benefit of hindsight didn't do much after us either. Some people were excited about Whitehurst though I never really saw it. He also hadn't shown anything here, wasn't very highly recruited, and with the benefit of hindsight, didn't do anything after us either.

Including all those other people, we are still in much better shape overall today than we were 5 years ago in terms of roster talent and depth.


Turner was the best frosh LBer at Arkansas of the past 25 years


Your analysis is waaaay off
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bennyl08

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2018, 02:27:37 pm »


Turner was the best frosh LBer at Arkansas of the past 25 years


Your analysis is waaaay off

Easy for you to say, but why don't you back up your assertion?

While you're at it, check out Jerry Franklin's true freshmen year stats...
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IronHog

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2018, 02:53:58 pm »

Easy for you to say, but why don't you back up your assertion?

While you're at it, check out Jerry Franklin's true freshmen year stats...


Last time any of us saw him he was lighting up LSU running backs in the hole


Just the first of many talented players  to disappear under B.B. and replaced by a slow honor roller
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2018, 09:19:57 pm »


Last time any of us saw him he was lighting up LSU running backs in the hole


Just the first of many talented players  to disappear under B.B. and replaced by a slow honor roller

Franklin was a senior in 2011.  Petrino recruited to replace him. 
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Pork Twain

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2018, 10:02:32 pm »

You can copy and paste but cannot evaluate football talent.
Again, Benny has done a pretty good job here, but feel free to counter with your own analysis.
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Pork Twain

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Re: 2013 vs 2018 roster
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2018, 10:05:40 pm »


A very biased breakdown
Not seeing it.  I am seeing a lot of bitching, not #UNCOMMON on here, but not a lot of others willing to do their own analysis.
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