why the mlb all star game is a sham

[professionalarsekicker]

yeah i know someone gets screwed every year , this year its one of my guys, CO Rockies left fielder Carlos Gonzales

heres a few stats for the starters and reserves, then Cargo's

                 ave hr rbi   obp  slg
braun         .298 11 51 .354 .478
heyward     .251 11 45 .366 .455
ethier        .321 13 48 .376 .564
bourn         .260 1 20 .336 .341
byrd           .310 9 35 .357 .485
hart            .287 18 60 .351 .566
holliday        .301 11 39 .375 .498
cargo          .297 14 51 .325 .498

Statistically, Ethier is head and shoulders above  them all (and having watched him kick our asses  every year, he certainly has my vote)

ok, so, ethier aside, cargo is better than most  of these guys in every category.
I  am not familiar with this bourn guy, but if his stats (that  I got from espn) are correct, surely this is a joke ?)


and ill say this, it goes both ways. Troy Tulowitzki of the rocks has made the team, but , hes injured, and  , having watched every inning of the rockies this season,  Tulo  is no where near the impact player Gonzales is this season.

maybe there should be a "most popular player team" and  the all star  team ? This just sucks. neither Bourn nor  Heyward deserve to be on this team, sorry. Maybe in the future but not now.

[Hogbody]

Why do u think Heyward doesn't deserve it? He's been hurt the last couple weeks and early in the season he was the only hitter for the Braves

[professionalarsekicker]

Why do u think Heyward doesn't deserve it? He's been hurt the last couple weeks and early in the season he was the only hitter for the Braves

just saying he doesnt deserve to start ahead of a guy thats batting 50 points higher and has hit 3 more hrs  than he has, jsut because hes popular.

[LVW]

He doesn't deserve it over Votto. Votto is top 5 in everything; is Gonzalez top 10 in anything?  If there's just 1 snub, it's Votto.

[professionalarsekicker]

He doesn't deserve it over Votto. Votto is top 5 in everything; is Gonzalez top 10 in anything?  If there's just 1 snub, it's Votto.

Hey Vottos numbers are great , but Im talking outfielders, of which cargo shouldnt  be competing power numbers with a  first baseman.  Compared to outfielders, he should be on the team.

[LVW]

nm

[LVW]

Heyward doesn't deserve a start thats for darn sure anyone who doesnt agree is blinded by the hype.

Prolly the same ones saying Strasburg should be on it.

[bsking]

The starters are a completely different issue.  They are voted on by the fans.  There is no clause to tell the fans to vote for the best players, thus the starters are often not the best players, just the most popular ones.

Anyone who thinks Heyward doesn't deserve to start is stupid.  He may be THE most exciting player in the country to watch.  Why would fans not vote him in?  Get used to it because he'll be there a long time.  And no, statistically he isn't in the top 3, but fortunately thats not what matters. 

[professionalarsekicker]

The starters are a completely different issue.  They are voted on by the fans.  There is no clause to tell the fans to vote for the best players, thus the starters are often not the best players, just the most popular ones.

Anyone who thinks Heyward doesn't deserve to start is stupid.  He may be THE most exciting player in the country to watch.  Why would fans not vote him in?  Get used to it because he'll be there a long time.  And no, statistically he isn't in the top 3, but fortunately thats not what matters.

clearly you havent watched anyone but the braves all season. C gonzales bats 50 points higher, has more HRS ,  and probably  can dust his ass running the bases, and gunning down runners from the OF.  its a shame that HYPE  is more important than talent. batting 250?  who the hell doesnt bat 250?

[bsking]

clearly you havent watched anyone but the braves all season. C gonzales bats 50 points higher, has more HRS ,  and probably  can dust his ass running the bases, and gunning down runners from the OF.  its a shame that HYPE  is more important than talent. batting 250?  who the hell doesnt bat 250?

Haha.  I have probably watched 150 games this season, from many different teams. 

Understand this.  STARTERS ARE VOTED ON BY FANS.  Try to follow me here.  FANS VOTE ON WHO THEY WANT TO SEE.  Heyward is going to be great, watch him.  He is Willie McCovey-esque.  Stats do not matter.  Heyward is who everyone wants to see and that is why he was elected to start for the NL.

Its not a terribly hard concept.

[Hogbody]

Why is Cargos on base so low?

[professionalarsekicker]

Why is Cargos on base so low?

good question. it is outta whack. no walks i suppose? hes a very agressive hitter. 

as for heyward,  yeah ok maybe he has the  potential to be great. .250 aint great.  Ubaldo Jimenez hits .200

[LVW]

You can make a case why any of the players that didn't make it shouldn't go- except Votto. 

There is no case you can dream up against Votto- hes 4th in hitting; 2nd in both slug% and OB%; 1st in OPS; 4th in runs; 3rd in total bases; 2nd in HRs; 5th in RBIs; 5th in walks; 2nd in adjusted OPS; 1st in runs created; 2nd in adjusted batting runs and adjusted batting wins; 5th in times on base; 1st in offensive win%; 2nd in wins above replacement level; hitting .311 with runners in scoring position; .359 with runners on; .426 in late inning pressure. Definsively he's 1st among NL 1stbasemen in Ultimate zone rating.

And for good measure he's made 27 fewer outs than Pujols.

[bsking]

With those numbers Votto should be in MVP contention, not to mention all-star.

Any other manager in the NL would have left Howard off and put Votto on.

[dhornjr1]

Corey Hart - .286 average, 19 HR, 61 RBI, .572 slugging percentage, approximately one mention per night on Baseball Tonight

Joey Votto - .312 average, 19 HR, 57 RBI, .572 slugging percentage, approximately one mention per night on Baseball Tonight.

Jason Heyward - .251 average, 11 HR, 45 RBI, .455 slugging percentage, third in overall mentions on ESPN since March, behind only LeBron James and Tim Tebow.

Only that ESPN stat really matters these days.

[bsking]

I don't understand how people can be so dense.  JASON HEYWARD WAS NOT SELECTED BY CHARLIE MANUEL.

The starters are voted on by fans.  It doesn't matter if the fans select the entire Royals outfield.  If thats who gets voted in then so be it.  Fans are not bound by stats.

Like it or not, Heyward is more exciting to watch that Votto and Hart.  Do you know on his first ever AB the ball speed of the bat wasone of the highest ever recorded?  He is a 20 year old true 5 tool athlete.  He's a linebacker playing RF.

The fans want to see exciting players and Heyward is as exciting as they get for a position player.

[The Hogfather]

WHO GIVES A SH--

Fans.

[LVW]

The fans want to see exciting players and Heyward is as exciting as they get for a position player.

Turning around a Roy Halladay 92 mph sinker low and off the plate and killing it is pretty exciting too.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9508037&topic_id=players&query=type%3Djson%26player_id%3D458015%26start%3D0%26src%3Dvpp%26sort%3Ddesc%26sort_type%3Dcustom%26hitsPerPage%3D60&c_id=cin

[LVW]

While on the subject of Heyward how about this comparison to fellow rookie Gaby Sanchez:

Heyward: .251/.366/.455/.821 41R 11HR 45RBI 5SB 4CS 199OUTS MADE .306 RISP
Sanchez: .308/.376/.481/.857 41R   9HR 38RBI 3SB 0CS 209OUTS MADE .366 RISP

Sanchez must be a ghost since he never gets mentioned.

[HOG FAN 4 LIFE]

Heyward does not DESERVE to be starting.  Heyward really doesn't DESERVE to be on the team.  Wasn't it in the NBA like 2 or 3 years ago where I think it was T Mac was voted an all star starter and he hadn't even played a game.  Fans are stupid.  Only few actually understand the game and what is going on.  Does that make them any less of fans?  No.  People follow trends and are easily swayed by media and hype.

[dhornjr1]

I don't understand how people can be so dense.  JASON HEYWARD WAS NOT SELECTED BY CHARLIE MANUEL.

The starters are voted on by fans.  It doesn't matter if the fans select the entire Royals outfield.  If thats who gets voted in then so be it.  Fans are not bound by stats.

Like it or not, Heyward is more exciting to watch that Votto and Hart.  Do you know on his first ever AB the ball speed of the bat wasone of the highest ever recorded?  He is a 20 year old true 5 tool athlete.  He's a linebacker playing RF.

The fans want to see exciting players and Heyward is as exciting as they get for a position player.

Where the hell did I mention Charlie Manuel?

Of course, Heyward was selected by the fans. There is a large contingent of baseball fans that don't know sh*t from shinola and only vote for the All-Star team based on what they hear on ESPN. Heyward has been annointed by ESPN as "The Next Big Thing".

Through Sunday, Heyward is on pace to finish the season with a .251 average, 22 HR, and 89 RBI. Wow, that's exciting. The reason he's considered "exciting", as you keep saying, is because the MLB media machine is promoting him as a big deal because they need a new young star. Specifically, they need a new young African-American star. I don't disagree with their approach in that regard because I would love to see more black American players in baseball like when I was a youngster.

What I disagree with is dumb*ss fans making him a starter when there are many guys who deserve it more than he does and those guys may never get another chance to start an All-Star game. Heyward might average 38 home runs and 116 RBI over the next fifteen years and start every All-Star game between now and then.

But he does not deserve to start the game this year. Matt Holliday does not deserve to even be on the team. Ozzie Smith did not deserve to start the All-Star game in the early 90's when Barry Larkin had surpassed him as the best shortstop in the National League.

Voters quite often put people on the All-Star team who should not be there, or at least should not be starting. Look up something called argumentum ad numerum and you will see what I mean.

[The Hogfather]

Where the hell did I mention Charlie Manuel?

Of course, Heyward was selected by the fans. There is a large contingent of baseball fans that don't know sh*t from shinola and only vote for the All-Star team based on what they hear on ESPN. Heyward has been annointed by ESPN as "The Next Big Thing".

Through Sunday, Heyward is on pace to finish the season with a .251 average, 22 HR, and 89 RBI. Wow, that's exciting. The reason he's considered "exciting", as you keep saying, is because the MLB media machine is promoting him as a big deal because they need a new young star. Specifically, they need a new young African-American star. I don't disagree with their approach in that regard because I would love to see more black American players in baseball like when I was a youngster.

What I disagree with is dumb*ss fans making him a starter when there are many guys who deserve it more than he does and those guys may never get another chance to start an All-Star game. Heyward might average 38 home runs and 116 RBI over the next fifteen years and start every All-Star game between now and then.

But he does not deserve to start the game this year. Matt Holliday does not deserve to even be on the team. Ozzie Smith did not deserve to start the All-Star game in the early 90's when Barry Larkin had surpassed him as the best shortstop in the National League.

Voters quite often put people on the All-Star team who should not be there, or at least should not be starting. Look up something called argumentum ad numerum and you will see what I mean.

I really think that the players/managers should vote on the All Star team, IF the winning team's league gets homefield advantage in the World Series.  That is a big deal, decided by fans who don't know anything more than what they hear on TV.  And to make it worse, they can vote like 25 times apiece.

[dhornjr1]

I really think that the players/managers should vote on the All Star team, IF the winning team's league gets homefield advantage in the World Series.  That is a big deal, decided by fans who don't know anything more than what they hear on TV.  And to make it worse, they can vote like 25 times apiece.

I could not agree more.

[LVW]

Votto made a statement tonite 3-4 with a 2b and 2 HRs.

[bsking]

You guys still don't understand.  Heyward deserves to start, want to know why?

2.2 million people want to see him there.

Starting as an all-star =/= being the best or even one of the best at that position. 

Numbers that do not matter:  HR, RBI, AVG, OBS, SLG, OPS, SB, E, Hits, etc.
Numbers that do matter:  Number of votes.

Don't hate on the player, hate on the system.  I honestly wouldn't care on bit if Rajai Davis starts if he gets the votes.

[professionalarsekicker]

Corey Hart - .286 average, 19 HR, 61 RBI, .572 slugging percentage, approximately one mention per night on Baseball Tonight

Joey Votto - .312 average, 19 HR, 57 RBI, .572 slugging percentage, approximately one mention per night on Baseball Tonight.

Jason Heyward - .251 average, 11 HR, 45 RBI, .455 slugging percentage, third in overall mentions on ESPN since March, behind only LeBron James and Tim Tebow.

Only that ESPN stat really matters these days.

how bout this for a conspiracy theory ?? as we all know, MLB  is doing all they can   to promote more black players in the league, going overboard to set up inner city leagues etc...  how bout this.. Heyward is a potential star, so, regardless of him deserving to play, they insist  to get him into the all star game to promote their agenda? sounds good to me.

[professionalarsekicker]

You guys still don't understand.  Heyward deserves to start, want to know why?

2.2 million people want to see him there.

Starting as an all-star =/= being the best or even one of the best at that position. 

Numbers that do not matter:  HR, RBI, AVG, OBS, SLG, OPS, SB, E, Hits, etc.
Numbers that do matter:  Number of votes.

Don't hate on the player, hate on the system.  I honestly wouldn't care on bit if Rajai Davis starts if he gets the votes.

britney spears sells millions of cds , and she cant sing.....

[dhornjr1]

You guys still don't understand.  Heyward deserves to start, want to know why?

2.2 million people want to see him there.

Starting as an all-star =/= being the best or even one of the best at that position. 

Numbers that do not matter:  HR, RBI, AVG, OBS, SLG, OPS, SB, E, Hits, etc.
Numbers that do matter:  Number of votes.

Don't hate on the player, hate on the system.  I honestly wouldn't care on bit if Rajai Davis starts if he gets the votes.

BTW, Does "exciting" mean ranking 73rd in the league in average, 77th in the league in hits, 68th in doubles, 53rd in total bases, 48th in runs scored, 32nd in the league in home runs, 30th in the league in RBI, and 38th in the league in slugging percentage? If so, I guess I need to reevaluate what exciting means. He's not in the top twenty in any offensive categories. Not one. Although he does lead the league in figurative sack-lickings from ESPN announcers and young baseball fans who fall all over themselves to latch onto the flavor of the month.

Of course he does rank 23rd in the league in strikeouts, his highest ranking in any offensive category. There's something to hang your, tongue, I mean hat, on.

[gutshot]

BTW, Does "exciting" mean ranking 73rd in the league in average, 77th in the league in hits, 68th in doubles, 53rd in total bases, 48th in runs scored, 32nd in the league in home runs, 30th in the league in RBI, and 38th in the league in slugging percentage? If so, I guess I need to reevaluate what exciting means. He's not in the top twenty in any offensive categories. Not one. Although he does lead the league in figurative sack-lickings from ESPN announcers and young baseball fans who fall all over themselves to latch onto the flavor of the month.

Of course he does rank 23rd in the league in strikeouts, his highest ranking in any offensive category. There's something to hang your, tongue, I mean hat, on.

No, Strasburg took over the Sack-Licking lead after his first start. 

I'll chime in as the self-proclaimed biggest Braves fan on this board, and say that I don't think Heyward should be a 2010 All-Star.  I didn't vote for him, but I did vote for Carlos Gonzales and Joey Votto....25 times.

But throwing the All-Star game out the window...to go as far as calling Heyward the flavor of the month is extremely short-sighted to me.  To me that means he's not a legit prospect, he's had his 15 minutes of fame, and it's all down hill from there.  Do you really believe that?   

Through Sunday, Heyward is on pace to finish the season with a .251 average, 22 HR, and 89 RBI. Wow, that's exciting. The reason he's considered "exciting", as you keep saying, is because the MLB media machine is promoting him as a big deal because they need a new young star. Specifically, they need a new young African-American star.

His 162 game average is actually: .251 avg with 25 homeruns, 103 RBI, 30 doubles, 96 walks, 11 stolen bases, .366 OBP, and .455 SLG%.    Link

If you're being sarcastic and you don't think that those numbers are legitimately exciting for a 20 year old that has had only 200 plate appearances above A ball and has been playing for 6 weeks with a strained ligament in his thumb (that has him in a cast now), then you have really high standards, my friend. 

[gutshot]

And back to the topic of All-Star Snubs,

Proffesionalarsekicker, If you really want to talk about a Rockie that got screwed, let's talk about Miguel Olivo.  He should be starting above Yadier Molina AND Brian McCann. 

Talk about a popularity contest.  Yadier Molina?  Here's the tale of the tape and I added where Olivo Ranks among all Major League catchers with 50 or more games played:

Olivo-- .307 AVG(1st), .363 OBP(8th), .538SLG(1st), 11 HR(3rd), 39 RBI (2nd)

Molina--.229 AVG,    .309 OBP,        .302 SLG,       3 HR,       31 RBI   

Defense?   Caught Stealing--Olivo 20, Molina 18.
Stolen Bases Allowed--Olivo 19,  Molina 20.
Fielding Percentage is identical.  Range Factor is only 1 point apart. 

I see absolutely NO reason Molina should even be a reserve much less starting. 

[bsking]

BTW, Does "exciting" mean ranking 73rd in the league in average, 77th in the league in hits, 68th in doubles, 53rd in total bases, 48th in runs scored, 32nd in the league in home runs, 30th in the league in RBI, and 38th in the league in slugging percentage? If so, I guess I need to reevaluate what exciting means. He's not in the top twenty in any offensive categories. Not one. Although he does lead the league in figurative sack-lickings from ESPN announcers and young baseball fans who fall all over themselves to latch onto the flavor of the month.

Of course he does rank 23rd in the league in strikeouts, his highest ranking in any offensive category. There's something to hang your, tongue, I mean hat, on.

It's cute that you'd look up all of those stats.  Here is the difference between me and you.  Stats don't mean a lot to me.  It takes nothing to look at some numbers and interpret who the best baseball players are.

To look beyond the numbers and see talent takes a brain.  You have to actually know baseball.

[dhornjr1]

It's cute that you'd look up all of those stats.  Here is the difference between me and you.  Stats don't mean a lot to me.  It takes nothing to look at some numbers and interpret who the best baseball players are.

To look beyond the numbers and see talent takes a brain.  You have to actually know baseball.

Son, I was watching and playing baseball years before you were an itch in your daddy's pants.

Baseball knowledge? Get your nose out of Jason Heyward's taint and then talk to me about baseball knowledge, impudent child.

[dhornjr1]

No, Strasburg took over the Sack-Licking lead after his first start.

Agreed.

But throwing the All-Star game out the window...to go as far as calling Heyward the flavor of the month is extremely short-sighted to me.  To me that means he's not a legit prospect, he's had his 15 minutes of fame, and it's all down hill from there.  Do you really believe that?

I honestly don't know what the future holds for the kid. He could be the next Ken Griffey, Jr., an all-time great, or he could be the next Darryl Strawberry, "The Next Big Thing" who never quite lives up to the hype, for whatever reason.

His 162 game average is actually: .251 avg with 25 homeruns, 103 RBI, 30 doubles, 96 walks, 11 stolen bases, .366 OBP, and .455 SLG%.    Link

I didn't say anything about his 162 game average. He's not going to play in 162 games. He is on pace for those numbers based on the number of games he's played so far and the number of remaining Braves games.

If you're being sarcastic and you don't think that those numbers are legitimately exciting for a 20 year old that has had only 200 plate appearances above A ball and has been playing for 6 weeks with a strained ligament in his thumb (that has him in a cast now), then you have really high standards, my friend. 

I'm not being sarcastic. I hope the kid has a Hall of Fame career and I hope he is the magnet that draws black American kids back to the game. Hell, I hope he proves me wrong and goes 3-3 with two homers and six ribbies, leads the National League to a much-needed All-Star game victory, and is named the All-Star game MVP.

If he does, I will invoke the memory of Jack Buck and I will announce to my family, "Pardon me while I stand and applaud".

My point has been from the beginning that he simply does not deserve to start in the All-Star game. The All-Star game is no longer "for the fans". Not after Bud Selig decided to make it count for home-field advantage in the World Series.

Also, I agree that Yadier Molina does not deserve to be on the All-Star team. Matt Holliday sure as hell doesn't belong on there, either. But we can blame Charlie Manuel for that. I voted for Molina a few times early in the process because he started out like a house afire, but then he went into a tailspin. So, when I went to complete the rest of my ballots, I voted for McCann.

BTW, aren't you a lifelong Los Angeles Lakers and Magic Johnson fan? People who have so much in common in that regard should not bicker over meaningless drivel such as this. Not when there is a sixteenth championship to celebrate.

[HOG FAN 4 LIFE]

It's cute that you'd look up all of those stats.  Here is the difference between me and you.  Stats don't mean a lot to me.  It takes nothing to look at some numbers and interpret who the best baseball players are.

To look beyond the numbers and see talent takes a brain.  You have to actually know baseball.

You are so lost man.

[bsking]

How am I lost?

Because I point out that the only beef you guys can throw out against an all star is the stats?

And dhornjr....I can't understand your beef dude.  If the fans want him as a starter, why can't you just accept that?

The fans make baseball.  Let them pick who they want, regardless of their stats.

[LVW]

And back to the topic of All-Star Snubs,

Proffesionalarsekicker, If you really want to talk about a Rockie that got screwed, let's talk about Miguel Olivo.  He should be starting above Yadier Molina AND Brian McCann. 

Talk about a popularity contest.  Yadier Molina?  Here's the tale of the tape and I added where Olivo Ranks among all Major League catchers with 50 or more games played:

Olivo-- .307 AVG(1st), .363 OBP(8th), .538SLG(1st), 11 HR(3rd), 39 RBI (2nd)

Molina--.229 AVG,    .309 OBP,        .302 SLG,       3 HR,       31 RBI  

Defense?   Caught Stealing--Olivo 20, Molina 18.
Stolen Bases Allowed--Olivo 19,  Molina 20.
Fielding Percentage is identical.  Range Factor is only 1 point apart. 

I see absolutely NO reason Molina should even be a reserve much less starting. 

and it's all Coors inflated.

[gutshot]

I didn't say anything about his 162 game average. He's not going to play in 162 games. He is on pace for those numbers based on the number of games he's played so far and the number of remaining Braves games.

Fair enough.  But even the numbers you cited are impressive for an injured 20 year old with very little experience above A ball.  Are they not? 

I'm not being sarcastic. I hope the kid has a Hall of Fame career and I hope he is the magnet that draws black American kids back to the game. Hell, I hope he proves me wrong and goes 3-3 with two homers and six ribbies, leads the National League to a much-needed All-Star game victory, and is named the All-Star game MVP.

He's set to come off the DL Monday, so he probably won't even play, but that's beside the point I guess.

My point has been from the beginning that he simply does not deserve to start in the All-Star game. 

Like I said, I never voted for him once.  I don't think he's an All-Star.  My argument is that he's more than a "flavor of the month."

So, when I went to complete the rest of my ballots, I voted for McCann.

Hell, I didn't vote for McCann either.  He's having an off year for his standards.  I voted for Olivo.

BTW, aren't you a lifelong Los Angeles Lakers and Magic Johnson fan? People who have so much in common in that regard should not bicker over meaningless drivel such as this. Not when there is a sixteenth championship to celebrate.

I think you have me confused with somebody else.  I don't keep up with the NBA anymore.  I was a Bulls/Jordan fan when I was a kid, and hated the Lakers.  Now I just don't like any of them. 

[gutshot]

and it's all Coors inflated.

Yeah it is, but I don't think his votes should count less because of it.  Look at Chase Utley's home/away splits.  There are cases of home field inflation all over the league.  You think Yadier Molina deserves it over Olivo?

[LVW]

Yeah it is, but I don't think his votes should count less because of it.  Look at Chase Utley's home/away splits.  There are cases of home field inflation all over the league.  You think Yadier Molina deserves it over Olivo?

All I did was comment on his stats, not his status.

[hogsanity]

All the all star games are a sham in one way or another.  MLB lets the fans pick the starters, so you can be assured the voting public will screw up at least half the picks.