Herbert to Michigan?

[IronHog]

That means you never read your own posts then.

You think B.B. had even adequate S&C?

[twistitup]

Was our inability to finish 4 full qtrs partly Ben's fault?

[Inhogswetrust]

You think B.B. had even adequate S&C?

For what HE wanted to do yes. It didn't work out for either one of them.

[IronHog]

Was our inability to finish 4 full qtrs partly Ben's fault?

Sure didn't help


Excellent S&C is the basis of any good program.

[hog.goblin]

Was our inability to finish 4 full qtrs partly Ben's fault?

I think it's more mental than physical.  And that's on CBB.

[RebHog]

I think it's more mental than physical.  And that's on CBB.

I think the epic collapses we had were so great that everyone took a part in those dumpster fires and herb was a part of that group. I agree with this mental aspect being a big part of it. CBB had alot of bluster and bravado on the sidelines when things where going good but once it started to crumble he froze up and didn't do anything.

[HogimusMaximus]

Make people slower and fat?

MuskogeeHogFan got owned!!

[RazorCraft]

Bring back Decker!!!

[FANONTHEHILL]

I completely agree with you until I hear something different.  Herb works for his head coach and follows orders.  If CBB wants them bigger and stronger and lifting 800 lb squats that is a head coaching decision and the S&C coach will design a program to get that done.  If CCM wants them to be light on their feet and agile then the S&C coach will design a program to do that.    It is what the HC wants.

Every coordinator and position coach had an idea of what they wanted from each member of their position group.  Herbert designed a regimen to get them there.  The problem was a disconnect between the coaching staff.  You want running backs to outrun people, yet you bulk them up.  You want LBs and DLineman to chase down SEC RBs, yet you bulk them up.  You want Olineman that can get out on screens, sweeps, and block down field, so you take the average weight down 25lbs, yet run the same power offense you did when they averaged 330. Every position group and every member of that group had a specific training regiment. That is what the position coaches wanted. The failures of the team are on every member of the staff.  Herbert is a part of that, but a junior officer following orders shouldn't take the blame when his commanding officers are not on the same page and make poor decisions.  There was a total disconnect schematically and personell wise within the building. In this case, it cost everyone their jobs.

[Jimbob111]

Every coordinator and position coach had an idea of what they wanted from each member of their position group.  Herbert designed a regimen to get them there.  The problem was a disconnect between the coaching staff.  You want running backs to outrun people, yet you bulk them up.  You want LBs and DLineman to chase down SEC RBs, yet you bulk them up.  You want Olineman that can get out on screens, sweeps, and block down field, so you take the average weight down 25lbs, yet run the same power offense you did when they averaged 330. Every position group and every member of that group had a specific training regiment. That is what the position coaches wanted. The failures of the team are on every member of the staff.  Herbert is a part of that, but a junior officer following orders shouldn't take the blame when his commanding officers are not on the same page and make poor decisions.  There was a total disconnect schematically and personell wise within the building. In this case, it cost everyone their jobs.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially linemen dropping weight and running the same scheme as when they were a lot heavier.

But a strength a conditioning coach should know how to develop position athletes. Receivers shouldn't be squatting 600lbs (that's a made up example, I don't know what they squatted) and O-linemen shouldn't be running 4.4 40s.

You have to know what the position requires, whether power, or flexibility, or vertical or whatever measurable needs to be stressed for that position.

I don't think Herb did that, plain and simple. I felt like he had a one-size-fits-all program. Or maybe the coaching staff had that program he was simply part of it.  If the head coach says "make them heavier" then what is he supposed to do? And Bielema did like having the heaviest offensive line in football. Not fastest, not limberest, not tallest, not best pot hole fillers...heaviest. Maybe there was something Freudian at work.

[FANONTHEHILL]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, especially linemen dropping weight and running the same scheme as when they were a lot heavier.

But a strength a conditioning coach should know how to develop position athletes. Receivers shouldn't be squatting 600lbs (that's a made up example, I don't know what they squatted) and O-linemen shouldn't be running 4.4 40s.

You have to know what the position requires, whether power, or flexibility, or vertical or whatever measurable needs to be stressed for that position.

I don't think Herb did that, plain and simple. I felt like he had a one-size-fits-all program. Or maybe the coaching staff had that program he was simply part of it.  If the head coach says "make them heavier" then what is he supposed to do? And Bielema did like having the heaviest offensive line in football. Not fastest, not limberest, not tallest, not best pot hole fillers...heaviest. Maybe there was something Freudian at work.

As I said in my post, Esch position group had a plan for there group and then individualized for Esch member of that group.  Herbert got thrbpkayers where their position coach wanted them.  He built the pieces, but the position coaches had to put the puzzle together with the pieces they asked for.  That's where they failed. No one was putting the same puzzle together. 

[Rzback]

When I was growing up in the 60's I seem to remember a huge emphasis on how much weight they lifted, dead, bench, and squats and who lifted the most. Don't remember any fat boys being on the team, just muscle.

[bphi11ips]

Every coordinator and position coach had an idea of what they wanted from each member of their position group.  Herbert designed a regimen to get them there.  The problem was a disconnect between the coaching staff.  You want running backs to outrun people, yet you bulk them up.  You want LBs and DLineman to chase down SEC RBs, yet you bulk them up.  You want Olineman that can get out on screens, sweeps, and block down field, so you take the average weight down 25lbs, yet run the same power offense you did when they averaged 330. Every position group and every member of that group had a specific training regiment. That is what the position coaches wanted. The failures of the team are on every member of the staff.  Herbert is a part of that, but a junior officer following orders shouldn't take the blame when his commanding officers are not on the same page and make poor decisions.  There was a total disconnect schematically and personell wise within the building. In this case, it cost everyone their jobs.

There are limits on what a trainer can do with a body.  I've been puzzled for years by the notion that you can take any 6'2" 210 lb. safety and turn him into a 6'2" 235 lb. linebacker.  And that is within what might be considered a reasonable range.  This is a strategy many here insist is the way Arkansas needs to recruit.  Sometimes it works.  More often than not it doesn't.

Talent and speed are recruited for the most part.  You can put weight and muscle on players, but you can't anticipate how that growth will affect speed and quickness.  That is true with linemen just as it is with anyone else.  If you add weight for the sake of adding weight, there is usually a sacrifice made somewhere, especially if that weight is added too quickly.  That is the reason o-linemen usually redshirt.  A 6'6" 285 lb. high school all-state offensive tackle isn't going to become a 6'6" 330 lb. All-Conference SEC lineman in two years.  If he gains that much weight, it is usually in the middle.  It takes years of nutrition and discipline to build a body ready for the NFL.  That is true of all positions but particularly true for linemen on both sides of the ball.  There are no shortcuts.  Bodies are not on a fan's schedule for success.   

A trainer can not turn a 3-star safety into a 4-star linebacker.  From 18 to 21, that 6'2" 210 safety may grow into a 6'4" 245 lb. beast.  Maybe he had long arms and an upper body in need of development.  Maybe some coach had vision about what he could be if fed and trained properly.  Maybe the athlete himself grew and watched a lot of film like Martrell Spaight. It happens, but it can't be predicted, nor can the trainer be blamed if it doesn't.

Far too much credit and blame is given to trainers on this board.

[Iwastherein1969]

So, Tretola coming in at 376 and crediting Herbert for getting him down to 320 pounds is Herbert not having him conditioned?

Collins being one of only a few backs to run for 1k yards each of his first 3 seasons is all in spite of his shape? I suppose you think he should be as fast against SEC defenders as he was against HS players, right? His NFL shape was him getting back into the same shape that Herbert had him at. Collins tried to bulk up for the NFL.

Kirkland was so out of shape that he was named to the pre-season all american list his final year here and went to the combine that year.

If that's out of shape, then I guess you think we should have been able to win a national championship with the players we had and gone down as one of the most talented teams in the history of the game if we had a "proper" S&C coach. SMH.

When the shape that Kirkland and Collins got into was the same shape that Herbert had them at here, then it kind of is. When the only reason they weren't at ideal weight was because of what they did AFTER they left Herbert, and their improvement in the NFL is going back to what worked with Herbert, that is a ringing endorsement.

CBB's draft picks were primarily his own recruits and guys who were never coached a day by Petrino.

You can go on these fad diets and lose a heckuvalot of weight. It's called High Protein/very low carb (ie, Atkins Diet). You don't have to do a single step of cardio to lose the weight it just falls off of you if you adhere strictly to the diet. No cardio, no stamina, thus the problem of falling apart in the 4th quarter.

[FANONTHEHILL]

You can go on these fad diets and lose a heckuvalot of weight. It's called High Protein/very low carb (ie, Atkins Diet). You don't have to do a single step of cardio to lose the weight it just falls off of you if you adhere strictly to the diet. No cardio, no stamina, thus the problem of falling apart in the 4th quarter.

If you think that the team was on the Atkins diet and lost football games because of it, you need to get a better grasp on reality.  They lost games in the fourth quarter because they were out coached, out schemed, and out played.  That's not Ben Herbert, that's coaches doing a poor job and players not executing.

[twistitup]

If you think that the team was on the Atkins diet and lost football games because of it, you need to get a better grasp on reality.  They lost games in the fourth quarter because they were out coached, out schemed, and out played.  That's not Ben Herbert, that's coaches doing a poor job and players not executing.

Conditioning didn't play a part? Conditioning and execution go hand in hand...true?

[FANONTHEHILL]

Conditioning didn't play a part? Conditioning and execution go hand in hand...true?

Conditioning and execution can go hand in hand, but pace dictates fatigue.  The slow methodical style didn't change from year one to year five under Bielema. The team simply wasn't built to do what Bielema wanted to do.  I don't think Bielema and Enos were ever 100% on the same page schematically.  We never saw the Central Michigan offense, but shrank the OL to run it.  It goes back to the pieces not fitting.  I didn't see guys on the sideline that we're physically exhausted.  I saw players players that were emotionally empty because they knew the plan wasn't going to work. 

I'm not discrediting your point.  I'm just giving you my opinion. I appreciate your opinion and enjoy the dialogue.  Respectful disagreement and conversation is what I like about these boards. 

[coolhog]

Ben was a good strength coach, UCLA was interested in him also.
He gets to take his staff with him.
Morris didn't even interview him.
We will see how smart Chad really is, in the next few years.  He may a learn on the job guy.

[Inhogswetrust]

There are limits on what a trainer can do with a body.  I've been puzzled for years by the notion that you can take any 6'2" 210 lb. safety and turn him into a 6'2" 235 lb. linebacker.  And that is within what might be considered a reasonable range.  This is a strategy many here insist is the way Arkansas needs to recruit.  Sometimes it works.  More often than not it doesn't.

Talent and speed are recruited for the most part.  You can put weight and muscle on players, but you can't anticipate how that growth will affect speed and quickness.  That is true with linemen just as it is with anyone else.  If you add weight for the sake of adding weight, there is usually a sacrifice made somewhere, especially if that weight is added too quickly.  That is the reason o-linemen usually redshirt.  A 6'6" 285 lb. high school all-state offensive tackle isn't going to become a 6'6" 330 lb. All-Conference SEC lineman in two years.  If he gains that much weight, it is usually in the middle.  It takes years of nutrition and discipline to build a body ready for the NFL.  That is true of all positions but particularly true for linemen on both sides of the ball.  There are no shortcuts.  Bodies are not on a fan's schedule for success.   

A trainer can not turn a 3-star safety into a 4-star linebacker.  From 18 to 21, that 6'2" 210 safety may grow into a 6'4" 245 lb. beast.  Maybe he had long arms and an upper body in need of development.  Maybe some coach had vision about what he could be if fed and trained properly.  Maybe the athlete himself grew and watched a lot of film like Martrell Spaight. It happens, but it can't be predicted, nor can the trainer be blamed if it doesn't.

Far too much credit and blame is given to trainers on this board.

I'm friends with a former player that when recruited out of high school was about 6'5" and 245 or so. He grew into a 6'6" and 275 or 280 or so AA. It took three years of him literally LIVING in the weight room for four to six hours a day everyday. He's now inshrined in the PFHOF in Canton.

[Bash]

It's interesting when he first became the strength and conditioning coach at Arkansas, he was like the greatest thing since sliced bread according to hogville.

Yup.  Lot's of Hogvillians posting pictures of so-called "body transformations." They reminded me of infomercials for the latest home gym machine. Dudes sucking in their guts and flexing their biceps. Not unlike the grey photo of the fat dude on the left and the color photo of the six-pack ab dude on the right.  I racked up plenty of smites in those days for questioning "Body by Herb." The posts are there, but unfortunately, there's no search function.

But all those posting that stuff back then have graduated high school now and have left Hogville.  Well, at least some have. 

[IronHog]

If you think that the team was on the Atkins diet and lost football games because of it, you need to get a better grasp on reality.  They lost games in the fourth quarter because they were out coached, out schemed, and out played.  That's not Ben Herbert, that's coaches doing a poor job and players not executing.

Mentally weak teams fall apart in crunch time.


Sweat more in peace so you bleed less in war.

[IronHog]

There are limits on what a trainer can do with a body.  I've been puzzled for years by the notion that you can take any 6'2" 210 lb. safety and turn him into a 6'2" 235 lb. linebacker.  And that is within what might be considered a reasonable range.  This is a strategy many here insist is the way Arkansas needs to recruit.  Sometimes it works.  More often than not it doesn't.

Talent and speed are recruited for the most part.  You can put weight and muscle on players, but you can't anticipate how that growth will affect speed and quickness.  That is true with linemen just as it is with anyone else.  If you add weight for the sake of adding weight, there is usually a sacrifice made somewhere, especially if that weight is added too quickly.  That is the reason o-linemen usually redshirt.  A 6'6" 285 lb. high school all-state offensive tackle isn't going to become a 6'6" 330 lb. All-Conference SEC lineman in two years.  If he gains that much weight, it is usually in the middle.  It takes years of nutrition and discipline to build a body ready for the NFL.  That is true of all positions but particularly true for linemen on both sides of the ball.  There are no shortcuts.  Bodies are not on a fan's schedule for success.   

A trainer can not turn a 3-star safety into a 4-star linebacker.  From 18 to 21, that 6'2" 210 safety may grow into a 6'4" 245 lb. beast.  Maybe he had long arms and an upper body in need of development.  Maybe some coach had vision about what he could be if fed and trained properly.  Maybe the athlete himself grew and watched a lot of film like Martrell Spaight. It happens, but it can't be predicted, nor can the trainer be blamed if it doesn't.

Far too much credit and blame is given to trainers on this board.

I put on like 40lbs one summer in college working on a logging job. Many Young men that are still growing can transform quickly with the right conditioning

[bphi11ips]

I put on like 40lbs one summer in college working on a logging job. Many Young men that are still growing can transform quickly with the right conditioning

How did that affect your 40 time?

[IronHog]

How did that affect your 40 time?

Went from real slow to kinda slow?

[Tusks]

Herb may have not been the problem but he sure wasn't part of the solution either.

There was incompetence from the top to the bottom and everywhere in between.

[bennyl08]

Oh, Lil Ben, I should have been more clear for those that have never actually had a relationship with a girl.

It is a very simple and true concept.

See when a boy and girl first start liking each other everything is wonderful.  Rainbows and sunshine and roses and everything is great.  The longer things go on one of two things will happen little fella...it will become better...or get worse.  After a while you see things that you didn't see before and realize that...after the initial infatuation is gone...they aren't the special one you thought they were.

So, when I hear some of my younger friends, or when I was younger talking about this awesome new girl they found, and then a few weeks or month later they are no longer together I don't make a big deal over them saying she was great.  Because I understand human nature.  The initial intrigue and fascination is gone and the reality sets in.

I honestly cannot believe I have to explain this to you.  I honestly can't believe you just wrote all that crap as if I was meaning any of that or any of that verbal garbage you just spewed was true.

I'll await your over-saturated response to a simple concept to prove your are smart enough and important enough to be at the adult table and in this conversation.

No wonder you're the ugly uncle. If you ever left your mother's basement you might get to be an ably dad or an ugly husband. You talk about relationships the way a 13 year talks about sex that he's never had any.

Real adults who have real relationships know better. I hope you someday meet somebody in real life. Truly do, I think it could do you wonders. Have a happy holiday.

[jcharkansas]

It's interesting when he first became the strength and conditioning coach at Arkansas, he was like the greatest thing since sliced bread according to hogville.

Boy that's the truth.... body by herb, body by herb. Then you saw all those injured players standing on the sidelines, maybe he wasn't the problem but we had far too many injury and we're very worn out by the 4th quarter.

[Snout team]

Official

https://twitter.com/seccountryhogs/status/947176618979717122

[PonderinHog]

Did somebody mention herb

[WorfHog]

Good luck to him. I know working for Harbaugh is going to be a big change.

[Ugly Uncle]

No wonder you're the ugly uncle. If you ever left your mother's basement you might get to be an ably dad or an ugly husband. You talk about relationships the way a 13 year talks about sex that he's never had any.

Real adults who have real relationships know better. I hope you someday meet somebody in real life. Truly do, I think it could do you wonders. Have a happy holiday.

LOL.  Seriously?  YOU really said that?  Okay.

Google is your friend.

[HogRealism]

I think you are wrong. Herbert did what Bielema wanted done.

That is correct I've worked as an athletic performance trainer for several years ...the HC gives the directives to S&C assistant as he does with all asst coaches. It was Bielema's culture to create so its on him.

[Inhogswetrust]

Every coordinator and position coach had an idea of what they wanted from each member of their position group.  Herbert designed a regimen to get them there.  The problem was a disconnect between the coaching staff.  You want running backs to outrun people, yet you bulk them up.  You want LBs and DLineman to chase down SEC RBs, yet you bulk them up.  You want Olineman that can get out on screens, sweeps, and block down field, so you take the average weight down 25lbs, yet run the same power offense you did when they averaged 330. Every position group and every member of that group had a specific training regiment. That is what the position coaches wanted. The failures of the team are on every member of the staff.  Herbert is a part of that, but a junior officer following orders shouldn't take the blame when his commanding officers are not on the same page and make poor decisions.  There was a total disconnect schematically and personell wise within the building. In this case, it cost everyone their jobs.

This right here is perhaps the biggest and simplest explanation of what went wrong. The issue I have though is a good head coach should know when this disconnect is happening and take steps to correct it. That wasn't done and shows a big lack of attention and focus to details that are important.

[Calling All Hogs]

The only thing that would make this better is if Herbert had gone to Auburn.