Before We Crack Out the Pitchforks and Torches

[HoggusMaximus]

And should.

At the minimum.

[gchamblee]

I think we may see a team to be proud of next season and the next.  Not because we got a bunch of excellent players or changed and got some wonderful assistants but because BB can count and therefore he knows he is 2years away from some kind of redo on his contract.  If and that is a big if, he wants to stay here, he will get off his ass and actually coach the hell out of this team and demand something from the coaching staff.  BB could be a better coach than he has shown.  He knows more than he offers. 

I am pretty sure he loves you Guys that always jump to his defense by creating yet another reason why he is a dismal failure so far here.  He took over a dumpster fire, you say, but many of those players has actually been the best players he has coached here.  We explain his piss poor offering this season on a new in-experienced QB, yet the reason the QB was so in-experienced was because he would not play the Kid when he had opportunities and never allowed him to actually play real football game when he did put him in a game.  Anyone here think his worries about the #2 QB were justified because he knew damn well he hadn't practiced AA enough for him to do much other than fail if called on.  Most teams have a second string QB that can play a bit especially after playing second fiddle for a year or two.  And our defense which has many players , 9 I believe, who started last year.  Instead of learning a damn thing, they are far worse than last year.  They look like the last time they had any teaching was their Senior year in High School.  Where the hell is the second team which should be made up of those great players this great coach was able to bring into the program.  And since he took over a dumpster fire most of these recent great gets should be playing their rears off instead of standing along the sidelines learning nothing, and being a part of a team they never get to play alongside.  If this coach is soooo great, why bother.  I mean if a great coach can only get us this mess, then to hell with it.  I don't see paying HC and assistants a rough combined total of around one million per win.  BAMA doesn't pay that much per win but maybe I need to understand that with volume comes discounts.

[rude1]

because you are in such a hurry to get back to going 0-8?

Go back to 0-8, by getting rid of the guy who took us to that?

[gchamblee]

Go back to 0-8, by getting rid of the guy who took us to that?

you realize when the fire department shows up to put out a fire, people dont blame them for starting the fire right?

[Iwastherein1969]

Bret had no idea what he was getting into. He had likely observed what Petrino accomplished at Arkansas in 2010 and thought he could, at the very least, reproduce that. I recall one of his quotes, at least the general idea of the quote when he was hired at Arkansas. Bret said something to the effect he didn't know where we'd be picked in the SEC West in his initial season but he felt like it would be somewhere in the middle of the pack after he evaluated his talent. That's the team that got absolutely drilled by Bama 52-0 and S. Carolina 52-7 on their way to 0-8. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions of Bret's ability to evaluate talent.

Something inside of me says the guy can get it done if he would stop all of the 'shuckin and jivin' with the media and sorry, no more BEING BRET BIELEMA. Think about it. Wrap your mind around Nick Saban, Dan Mullen or Hugh Freeze hucking it up with the local Bo Mattingly type instead of busting their behinds trying to put a successful football team together. 7-5 is not good enough at Arkansas. And if 7-5 has become the gold standard  in Arkansas football, well, my donation will reflect lowered expectations just as it should for all donors.

[DeltaBoy]

I expect to see us getting better over the next 2 years but to really reap the rewards of His system it going to be year 7-10 before we see really what we want.

[hogcard1964]

Hogcard! How old are you? I think a big factor of the separation in our fanbase is age. How old are most of the darksiders? I wasn't on hogville when Nutt was being ousted.

I'm old, that could be it.  A lot of the older crowd may remember when the Hogs were really good on a pretty regular basis while a lot of the younger crowd only remembers the mediocrity (sans Petrino's years) of the past 20 or so years.

The younger crowd may be more willing to accept less, because the Hogs haven't really been good recently.  Not knocking anyone, but that could be one of the reasons.

However, this current darksider crowd is nowhere near as rough on Bret as they were on Hootie.  But if he has another blah or poor season next year, look out.

[buldozer]

He will likely leave on his own before anyone here fires him. I think he has figured out he doesn't have what it takes to compete here and may jump ship this or next year. I hope he has a better year next year for all concerned.

[hobhog]

it is too late. the pitchforks have been out for a while now. the discontent are always the loudest and they feel more justified now than ever.

Only pitchforks I see  are a few in here. Boots on the ground in real world still got his back, but needs good season next year.

[gchamblee]

Only pitchforks I see  are a few in here. Boots on the ground in real world still got his back, but needs good season next year.

i hope so

[wachhog]

I will never feel sorry for guys that when they FAIL, they are paid millions to go away quietly. Fans are being squeezed for every dollar to help finance escalating athletic budgets, I find it quite natural that if they feel their monetary sacrifice isn't in line with the thrill of victory they are paying for, they will be some very angry people.

This^^^
If football and basketball coaches  sell themselves to the highest bidder, they deserve all the ridicule they get when and if they fail. And much more, actually.  No sympathy from me. They sold their soul...They are no different from the John Stumpfs of this world. It IS NO LONGER  about their love of the game. The Jeff Longs of the world have seen to that.

[wachhog]

And when they go out and turn themselves into the male version of Honey Boo Boo's mother...

[HotlantaHog]

Bret had no idea what he was getting into. He had likely observed what Petrino accomplished at Arkansas in 2010 and thought he could, at the very least, reproduce that. I recall one of his quotes, at least the general idea of the quote when he was hired at Arkansas. Bret said something to the effect he didn't know where we'd be picked in the SEC West in his initial season but he felt like it would be somewhere in the middle of the pack after he evaluated his talent. That's the team that got absolutely drilled by Bama 52-0 and S. Carolina 52-7 on their way to 0-8. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions of Bret's ability to evaluate talent.

Something inside of me says the guy can get it done if he would stop all of the 'shuckin and jivin' with the media and sorry, no more BEING BRET BIELEMA. Think about it. Wrap your mind around Nick Saban, Dan Mullen or Hugh Freeze hucking it up with the local Bo Mattingly type instead of busting their behinds trying to put a successful football team together. 7-5 is not good enough at Arkansas. And if 7-5 has become the gold standard  in Arkansas football, well, my donation will reflect lowered expectations just as it should for all donors.

There are different ways to accomplish things. Nick Saban and Urban Meyer are very much button-down personalities who micromanage things and are likely to stay far away from YouTube videos. Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier and Dabo Swinney have been very successful with personalities that emphasize fun, a little cheerleading, and some Hollywood.

Have no problem with CBB having some fun and being himself, so long as the on-the-field product is trending in the right direction. When it is not, it makes you wonder about the focus.

[Torqued pork]

The pitchforks are more like sporks for now. A year or two of the SOS and voices asking Long "what are you going to do about it", will be too frequent to be ignored.

[JOKERHOG]

Shhhh, Petrino hated defense, now that defensive minded Bret will show us how to build a defense to be proud of, oh wait the defense is worse than anything Petrino ever put on the field. Well it takes time to build it from the ground up!!!!

LOL, you are extremely rude and correct!

[JOKERHOG]

He will likely leave on his own before anyone here fires him. I think he has figured out he doesn't have what it takes to compete here and may jump ship this or next year. I hope he has a better year next year for all concerned.

I agree, he leaves before his lack of coaching ability is further exposed.  Hopefully after this year but definitely after next year. 

[gawntrail]

College football is a high-risk, high-reward operation on many, many levels.  It's the nature of the beast.

I think we get too excitable in general about coaches.  Everyone loves a winner, but at some places, it takes longer to build a winner.  Arkansas is probably one of those places, like Kansas State and Virginia Tech.  The first four years of Snyder's career didn't look very good, but the program eventually turned a corner.  It took Frank Beamer 7 seasons to win more than 6 games. 

The whiplash effect of Arkansas' inconsistencies, particularly this season, wears on fans--if anyone can understand that, I sure can.  Aspects of this season are really disappointing, and if Arkansas loses its bowl game, the bad taste is going to hang around for a while.  But, before we crack out the pitchforks and the torches, consider this:

When Bielema got here, this program was an atomic-powered dumpster fire.  Think how bad it was in Bielema's first year.  It was a lot worse than that.  Petrino's personality and lack of emphasis on recruiting or defense was already beginning to fracture the program.  Then Motorcyclegate happens, and then you've got the John L. Smith year, where a guy basically has a nervous breakdown in front of the entire state.  The JLS team had talent, but that talent departed, leaving the cupboard completely bare.  Imagine what that year would have been like without Alex Collins.  The program was in a very deep hole in 2013.

Consider what he's up against.  At least Snyder and Beamer got their chances to rebuild in the Big 8 and as an independent/Big East member; Bielema has had to attempt a total rebuild in the SEC West since 2013--arguably the toughest division ever in college football.  There's no let up--Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Ole Miss, State, and Texas A&M have all fielded great teams in that stretch.  Auburn and Alabama have both been in title games in that stretch.  Ole Miss went to 2 New Year's 6 games and won a Sugar Bowl.  LSU is going to its 20th straight bowl.  A&M had a Heisman Trophy winner.  And Mississippi State had the first ever #1 ranking in the college football championship poll.  It's easy to just look at Arkansas--that's what most of the media do around here, anyway.  But you can't ignore the context--this rebuild has been happening in the most challenging landscape possible. If you've got vulnerabilities, life here can be nasty, brutish, and short.

Bielema, like everyone else coming to a job, has a learning curve.  What it takes to win in the Big 10 might not be what it takes to win in the SEC.  Anyone taking the reins of a program in college football's toughest division coming from somewhere else has had learning pains.  Malzhan, Mullen, Freeze, and Sumlin all have had their shares of learning experiences entering the league, and 3 of those guys coached FBS teams to conference championships before arriving in the SEC West.  Some of those lessons have come hard, sure, but you've got to take that into account before judging 4 years of work based on the few hours that have been televised.  What if every mistake you ever made on the job was exposed to public criticism?  Sure, he signed up for it, and he's well-compensated for it.  Doesn't mean that it doesn't affect him like it would anyone else. 

Some of you will take this as excuse making, but not all explanation is excuse.  Everyone claims that the program is special and that it faces unique obstacles compared to other SEC West schools.  Alright, let's take that at face value.  Why add another obstacle by changing coaches every 4 years?  It's my belief that Arkansas (and, btw, State and Ole Miss) can only succeed through continuity.  If you're already facing some disadvantages, why add coaching instability to them?  Bielema's won 3, 7, and 8 games.  There's a chance he'll win 8 again, and if he doesn't, then we're talking about taking a 1-game-back step overall.  This team had issues going into the season, and it was all there to see:  new QB, big losses from last year's roster, unknown quantities at OL, and a defense that was thin even when it was playing well.  Those weren't surprises to people who were paying attention. 

After next season, we should know what we've got.  At that point, at least Bielema will have been given enough time to either succeed on his own or repair the program sufficiently from the catastrophe of 2011-2013 to allow the next guy to succeed.

What were Snyder and Beamer being paid in relation to other coaches during the years before the wins started coming? 

My issue is paying SEC championship and upper tier money for mediocre results.  I don't care if CBB is here 20 years as long as his compensation is in line with his results. 

His salary should match our Bowl Opponent's coach's salary.  Or.  We could average all the 7-5 coaches' salaries and CBB can cut us a check back.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

What were Snyder and Beamer being paid in relation to other coaches during the years before the wins started coming? 

My issue is paying SEC championship and upper tier money for mediocre results.  I don't care if CBB is here 20 years as long as his compensation is in line with his results. 

His salary should match our Bowl Opponent's coach's salary.  Or.  We could average all the 7-5 coaches' salaries and CBB can cut us a check back.

How much is he paid relative to other SEC coaches? 

[gawntrail]

How much is he paid relative to other SEC coaches?

How much Is he winning relative to other SEC coaches?

[Bubba's Bruisers]

How much Is he winning relative to other SEC coaches?

He's probably in the bottom third.  Where does his pay fall?

[jkstock04]

Someone posted a chart a while back showing some of this stuff. If I remember right Beamer was making around 200k/year when going through those losing years. I don't know how much that was in relation to top paid coaches back then.

[ChicoHog]

There are different ways to accomplish things. Nick Saban and Urban Meyer are very much button-down personalities who micromanage things and are likely to stay far away from YouTube videos. Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier and Dabo Swinney have been very successful with personalities that emphasize fun, a little cheerleading, and some Hollywood.

Have no problem with CBB having some fun and being himself, so long as the on-the-field product is trending in the right direction. When it is not, it makes you wonder about the focus.

Good point.  I think the TV show and his appearances on the SEC championship game, radio interviews etc., give us good publicity.  Bama and OSU don't need that PR but Arkansas does.  Whatever gets our name out there in the public eye so kids can see the Hog brand is important.  I think Swinney is a great comparison to Bielema.  Both guys seem to really care about their players and are more the CEO types than the micro managers.  Difference is Clemson has twice the talent and depth we have due to their location and Swinney is a great recruiter.  I think BB is a good recruiter but not on Swinney's level.  And Clemson has a really good DC in Brent Venables and they play in the ACC which is a good league but not on the same level as the SEC.    Let's see what happens in the next 2 years.  I'm willing to give him that. 

[gawntrail]

He's probably in the bottom third.  Where does his pay fall?

SEC FOOTBALL COACH SALARIES

(Total pay, including university and non-university pay, for FBS coaches)

1. Nick Saban (Alabama): $6,939,395

2. Kevin Sumlin (Texas A&M): $5,000,000

3. Gus Malzahn (Auburn): $4,729,500

4. Hugh Freeze (Ole Miss): $4,703,500

5. Les Miles (LSU): $4,385,567*

6. Jim McElwain (Florida): $4,268,325

7. Dan Mullen (Mississippi St.): $4,200,000

8. Bret Bielema (Arkansas): $4,145,000

9. Butch Jones (Tennessee): $4,110,000

10. Kirby Smart (Georgia): $3,753,600

11. Mark Stoops (Kentucky): $3,513,600

12. Will Muschamp (South Carolina): $3,002,500

13. Derek Mason (Vanderbilt): $2,556,877**

14. Barry Odom (Missouri): $2,350,000

* Fired earlier this season.

** 2014 compensation from federal tax return, since Vanderbilt is a private institution.

Source: USA Today

http://sports.usatoday.com/2016/10/26/sec-has-14-of-top-50-college-football-coach-salaries/

Middle third.  Obviously underperforming.

[longpig]

Middle third.  Obviously underperforming.

your source disagrees

[hoss cartrack]

Hogcard! How old are you? I think a big factor of the separation in our fanbase is age. How old are most of the darksiders? I wasn't on hogville when Nutt was being ousted.

luke hawg i was about to say the same thing.  you can almost see the generational lines here.  in fact...you can see the line that separates those who feel entitled and that the football team owes them something simply because they call themselves fans.  as for me...i'd rather be a razorback and never win another game than to be a national champion with anyone else.  some of you will understand that....others will berate me for this post....and prove my point.

[Al Boarland]

I think there is a perception problem with the fan base. I see post after post about who we should beat and that we belong with the likes of the top half of the division. No, that will have to be earned. It's not where we belong.

[Pig In The City]

Just think. We could have had Franklin.

[Hawghiggs]

Just think. We could have had Franklin.

Can't. I read on this board that he wasn't a very good coach.

[depressed_fan]

I don't think anyone with a brain is clamoring for coach Brett to get fired. But, if we think he or anyone else can take us beyond 8-4, we are kidding ourselves.

[gawntrail]

your source disagrees

I believe we could get the same results for quite a bit less money.... probably half.  And, we can drop the happy gas talk of SEC championships and lining up and kicking people's ass(s).  We cant clear the band off the field let alone anybody of note. 

If we're going to pay real money, and $4.2MM is real money, then real results are the expectation(s).  Again, I think we have been oversold and have definitely overpaid for this pathetic work product 4 years in.

[hawgsalot]

I believe we could get the same results for quite a bit less money.... probably half.  And, we can drop the happy gas talk of SEC championships and lining up and kicking people's ass(s).  We cant clear the band off the field let alone anybody of note. 

If we're going to pay real money, and $4.2MM is real money, then real results are the expectation(s).  Again, I think we have been oversold and have definitely overpaid for this pathetic work product 4 years in.

Really this is quite brilliant so who are these coaches that will come for 2.1 and get the same results.  That would be the lowest in the conference.  For that matter who are the coaches you guarantee will get us more for 4.2mm

[redneckfriend]

The o.p. made a "perspective" type post (meaning assuming a rational and objective tone) and I think, although there are a number of threads from time to time of this type, that it is a good exercise for follow up posters to take the the same spirit. So in that spirit I'll make an "objective" post.

Since forever, or at least since the SEC, Arkansas has never won any type of "championship"- national or conference. Bobby Petrino, probably because he was a demanding taskmaster and perfectionist, had some good years but was no real risk for a championship and I expect Brett to follow the same path. When I watched Alabama against Florida yesterday I was a little overwhelmed by the sheer talent Alabama has (especially at running back- but of course also on the defensive line and linebacker). The announcers had their usual chortles about so-and-so going out and another 5*  taking his place. We all know (because we tell ourselves it's true) that "stars" don't matter. Exhibit one in the counter-argument is spelled ALABAMA.

Arkansas will not be able to recruit the kind of players Alabama does (nor Florida, nor LSU- nor possibly Georgia, Tennessee or Auburn at their best) -ever. There may be years when the stars align right and Arkansas has a very good quarterback, a serviceable O-line, one very good running back and one capable one, some receivers who can catch and, oh yes, a defense that isn't as porous as a sieve. They may not be future all-pros but if they are motivated and physically capable D-1 college players they might be a threat to any team they play under those conditions. It won't happen often (if ever) and it shouldn't be expected but it realistically might and it can be hoped for as long as hope is tinged with the understanding that it will be rare.

It isn't the coach's fault that the type of players who beg to be offered by Alabama (or Florida or LSU when they have program stability) won't even give him the time of day. Who wouldn't want to go to a proven winner and possibly play every year for a NC- especially when you are being recruited by your home state school (or live in a neighboring state). It isn't "play calling" or bad clock management (although we have all seen times, and coaches, where those are problems)- it is TALENT and you can't "coach up" speed and quickness combined with muscle mass.

Now it is true that Nick Saban will retire sometime and it may take Alabama a couple of years to get back to program stability but Arkansas has been lucky that a sleeping giant like Florida (or even Tennessee or Georgia) hasn't had that recently. It's more possible that in a year or two there could be two or three SEC "superpowers" that block the road for that mythical Arkansas team of the future that doesn't have first round draft picks but is 'good' enough to compete with anyone.

So Arkansas fans might hope for some type of championship- hope is good- it's what keeps churches filled, but they should never realistically expect it. What they should realistically expect is a winning season year after year- Arkansas doesn't have the talent pool of big SEC programs but it also doesn't have to compete with an in-state rival like Miss- MSU, Alabama- Auburn, Florida-FSU (Miami). Its more like a smaller scale version of LSU or Tennessee and the results will follow accordingly. Replacing coaches ONLY because they don't meet the unrealistic hopes of fans (assuming they are making every effort to meet those expectations) is a ticket to a downward spiral (as has been clear from recent experience with the Arkansas men's basketball team).

[HamSammich]

I don't have confidence in our coaches .... BUT, I have less confidence in those that doing the hiring of coaches. I support CBB basically because I don't have a shred of evidence that our athletics department has an ounce of competence in hiring

[gchamblee]

I don't have confidence in our coaches .... BUT, I have less confidence in those that doing the hiring of coaches. I support CBB basically because I don't have a shred of evidence that our athletics department has an ounce of competence in hiring

Our AD has hired 2 football coaches in his career at Arkansas. Bobby Petrino and Bret Bielema. He also had to find an interim coach for a transition that didnt go so well, but that may have had more to do with the players and assistants attitudes than the coach himself. There is evidence there, you simply ignore it.

[rtr]

The o.p. made a "perspective" type post (meaning assuming a rational and objective tone) and I think, although there are a number of threads from time to time of this type, that it is a good exercise for follow up posters to take the the same spirit. So in that spirit I'll make an "objective" post.

Since forever, or at least since the SEC, Arkansas has never won any type of "championship"- national or conference. Bobby Petrino, probably because he was a demanding taskmaster and perfectionist, had some good years but was no real risk for a championship and I expect Brett to follow the same path. When I watched Alabama against Florida yesterday I was a little overwhelmed by the sheer talent Alabama has (especially at running back- but of course also on the defensive line and linebacker). The announcers had their usual chortles about so-and-so going out and another 5*  taking his place. We all know (because we tell ourselves it's true) that "stars" don't matter. Exhibit one in the counter-argument is spelled ALABAMA.

Arkansas will not be able to recruit the kind of players Alabama does (nor Florida, nor LSU- nor possibly Georgia, Tennessee or Auburn at their best) -ever. There may be years when the stars align right and Arkansas has a very good quarterback, a serviceable O-line, one very good running back and one capable one, some receivers who can catch and, oh yes, a defense that isn't as porous as a sieve. They may not be future all-pros but if they are motivated and physically capable D-1 college players they might be a threat to any team they play under those conditions. It won't happen often (if ever) and it shouldn't be expected but it realistically might and it can be hoped for as long as hope is tinged with the understanding that it will be rare.

It isn't the coach's fault that the type of players who beg to be offered by Alabama (or Florida or LSU when they have program stability) won't even give him the time of day. Who wouldn't want to go to a proven winner and possibly play every year for a NC- especially when you are being recruited by your home state school (or live in a neighboring state). It isn't "play calling" or bad clock management (although we have all seen times, and coaches, where those are problems)- it is TALENT and you can't "coach up" speed and quickness combined with muscle mass.

Now it is true that Nick Saban will retire sometime and it may take Alabama a couple of years to get back to program stability but Arkansas has been lucky that a sleeping giant like Florida (or even Tennessee or Georgia) hasn't had that recently. It's more possible that in a year or two there could be two or three SEC "superpowers" that block the road for that mythical Arkansas team of the future that doesn't have first round draft picks but is 'good' enough to compete with anyone.

So Arkansas fans might hope for some type of championship- hope is good- it's what keeps churches filled, but they should never realistically expect it. What they should realistically expect is a winning season year after year- Arkansas doesn't have the talent pool of big SEC programs but it also doesn't have to compete with an in-state rival like Miss- MSU, Alabama- Auburn, Florida-FSU (Miami). Its more like a smaller scale version of LSU or Tennessee and the results will follow accordingly. Replacing coaches ONLY because they don't meet the unrealistic hopes of fans (assuming they are making every effort to meet those expectations) is a ticket to a downward spiral (as has been clear from recent experience with the Arkansas men's basketball team).

I wish we had more HS programs like Warren in South Arkansas.  They have a 10th grade wideout that is a man among boys.  Saw him play at Prairie Grove this past Friday.  One of their fans said he was offered by U of A last year.  This debate though is something of a red herring, college football is cyclical.  Nick Saban won't be a Bama forever.  Arkansas is right there with Tennessee and Auburn.

[HamSammich]

Our AD has hired 2 football coaches in his career at Arkansas. Bobby Petrino and Bret Bielema. He also had to find an interim coach for a transition that didnt go so well, but that may have had more to do with the players and assistants attitudes than the coach himself. There is evidence there, you simply ignore it.

Just two huh? You sunshine pumper...


He also hired the biggest mistake hire in the history of the program. Petrino landed in his lap and CBB no matter how much I support him, he will end us a sub 500 arkansas coach. Pump on buddy