Can we quit the "Albert Pujols is the best ever" stuff?

[Oklahawg]

CFs:
1. Andruw Jones
2. Torii Hunter
3. Joey Gathwright
   Carl Crawford (when Gathright is traded)
4. Mark Kotsay (barely)
5. Juan Pierre
6. Grady Sizemore
7. Carlos Beltran
8. David DeJesus (DLed now)
9. Curtis Granderson
10. Brady Clark
11. Vernon Wells
12. Aaron Rowand
13. Ken Griffey Jr (Ryan Freel if JR is DL'ed)
14. JOhnny Damon


not:
1. Ryan Church
2. Willy Tavaras
3. Chris Duffy
4. Jeff DeVanon
5. Cory Sullivan
6. Kenny Lofton (real close)
7. Mike Cameron
8. Corey Patterson
9. Brian Anderson (will be soon)
10. Darin Erstad
11. Jeremy Reed
12. Gary Mathews Jr

Lists are not rank ordered. Yes, as a lifelong, die-hard Cards fan I think Edmonds is AT LEAST in the bottom half of MLB CFs.

Strikeouts more than anyone in baseball. Hits into a ton of DPs. Speed on the bases doesn't exist anymore. BA declining. Range declining.

I'll still take a World Series appearance with him in CF. Cards do need to upgrade this season or next off-season, though.

[Snort and Squeal]

ESPN just summed it up on Pujols.  Nobody, NOBODY... has ever had 5 first seasons like Pujols.  EastexHawg compared him to the Babe's 10 year average.  Hello, normally a players productions gets better as time goes on.  Maybe it is fair to say that Pujols is the best at this point in his career.  I would settle for that.

[EastexHawg]

I didn't see the ESPN story...but how do they figure?

Over the first six full years of his career, Jimmie Foxx had a higher batting average than Pujols (.340 to .332), averaged more homers per 162 games (45 to 43), blew Pujols away in RBI per 162 games (155 per season for Foxx...130 for Pujols), averaged more runs scored (134 to 130)...and beat Pujols in slugging percentage (.658 to .628), on-base percentage (.440 to .419), and OPS (1.098 to 1.047).

Pujols batted more times, but got two fewer base hits per season, on average.  Foxx walked more times per season (107 to 85).  Pujols averaged more doubles, but Foxx averaged more triples.

Foxx is just the best example from the guys I wrote about above.

Albert Pujols is a great hitter...I just think it is the thing to do lately to portray every great player that comes along in any sport as the "best ever."  Will he end up as the best ever?  Maybe, but what's the rush?  I just want to see him play out his career before I fit him for the crown.

During last night's NBA playoff game, the announcers mentioned that Tim Duncan had just tied the record for most consecutive baskets without a miss at the start of a playoff game.  The record he tied was set by some guy who played for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1970s.  Frankly, I don't remember him at all.  So...what did it prove that he started off a game shooting better from the field than anyone in NBA playoff history?

BTW, regarding Ruth...it would be deceiving to compare Ruth's hitting statistics from his first six seasons as a major leaguer...because HE WAS A PITCHER from 1914 to 1919.  He averaged 31 starts per year...along with 21 complete games and 17 WINS per year...from 1915 to 1919.

Ruth became a full-time outfielder in 1920.  Over his first six seasons as a "position player", he averaged the following per 162 games played:

565 at bats
.360 batting average
52 home runs
146 RBI
157 runs scored
203 hits
40 doubles
11 triples
151 bases on balls
.495 on-base average
.747 slugging percentage 
1.242 OPS

Compare all of those numbers to Pujols, then tell me how anyone can say no one has ever had a start to his career like Albert has had.  Heck, go ahead and compare them to anyone, for that matter...Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Dimaggio, anyone.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I guess my point is that while Albert Pujols has taken over the title as best hitter in the majors over the last couple of years, I think the "best ever" or "best ever through six seasons" or "best ever through his first 3,127 at-bats" stuff is premature to say the least...and downright wrong to say the most.

[werehog]

There are many who would argue that Say Hey Willie's contemporaries -- Duke Snyder and Mickey Mantle were just as good as he was during the golden years of the 1950's. Watch film on Joltin' Joe -- they called him a ballerina in centerfield. Most baseball sages think Tris Speaker is the most gifted centerfielder of alltime.

Those who don't think Albert Pujols is the best player of his era don't know squat about baseball. Ted Williams may be the best hitter of all time but we won't know because of those missing six seasons in the prime of his career. We certainly wouldn't  be jawing about the most home run totals because the Thumper would probably be in the 800 range.

[ledhead830]

There are many who would argue that Say Hey Willie's contemporaries -- Duke Snyder and Mickey Mantle were just as good as he was during the golden years of the 1950's. Watch film on Joltin' Joe -- they called him a ballerina in centerfield. Most baseball sages think Tris Speaker is the most gifted centerfielder of alltime.

Those who don't think Albert Pujols is the best player of his era don't know squat about baseball. Ted Williams may be the best hitter of all time but we won't know because of those missing six seasons in the prime of his career. We certainly be jawing about the most home run totals because the Thumper would probably be in the 800 range.

Williams only missed three full years, then played 43 games over a two-year period...judging by the HR numbers of his in the years around his departure, Williams' 521 would have turned into around 680, but nowhere near the 800 mark.

[Ugly Uncle]

There are many who would argue that Say Hey Willie's contemporaries -- Duke Snyder and Mickey Mantle were just as good as he was during the golden years of the 1950's. Watch film on Joltin' Joe -- they called him a ballerina in centerfield. Most baseball sages think Tris Speaker is the most gifted centerfielder of alltime.

Those who don't think Albert Pujols is the best player of his era don't know squat about baseball. Ted Williams may be the best hitter of all time but we won't know because of those missing six seasons in the prime of his career. We certainly wouldn't  be jawing about the most home run totals because the Thumper would probably be in the 800 range.

"thumper"?  I thought he was the "splendid splinter".

[werehog]

Ted Williams had many nicknames -- Teddy Ballgame, The Thumper, The Splendid Splinter are among them. When you are the best hitter of your time, it's easy to pile up the superlatives. Brooklyn fans gave Musial the nickname Stan the Man, Joltin Joke followed .381 season. St. Louis fans, including announcer Harry Cary, usually referred to Musial (born Stanislaus Franklin Musial, as Stash the Polish nickname for Stanislaus. I was fortunate enoough as a small boy to watch Stan when he was still fleet of foot leg out an inside the park home run. Check Stan triple and double totals when he was in his prime. He wasn't as fast as Mantle -- who was -- but Stan could fly.

[Ugly Uncle]

Ted Williams had many nicknames -- Teddy Ballgame, The Thumper, The Splendid Splinter are among them. When you are the best hitter of your time, it's easy to pile up the superlatives. Brooklyn fans gave Musial the nickname Stan the Man, Joltin Joke followed .381 season. St. Louis fans, including announcer Harry Cary, usually referred to Musial (born Stanislaus Franklin Musial, as Stash the Polish nickname for Stanislaus. I was fortunate enoough as a small boy to watch Stan when he was still fleet of foot leg out an inside the park home run. Check Stan triple and double totals when he was in his prime. He wasn't as fast as Mantle -- who was -- but Stan could fly.

I was talking to my Dad the other day...who is a bigger baseball fan than I am...and that is saying something.  He is well on up in years now, but he told me a story about Ted Williams.  Basically, his first game back from being gone because of the war.  It was a Spring training game or something.  Anyway, his first at bat he walks up to the plate and digs in.  Then he steps out and turns to the umpire and tells him, "the plate is not centered with the field."  The umpire looked at it and said, "sure it is, get in the box and play ball."  Ted tell him to measure it and check it.  They came out to measure how the plate was aligned, and Ted was right...it was off 3/4 of an inch.

Now, I am not sure if this is an urban legend or not about Ted...

However, my Dad who grew up with some of those great old timers said that Ted Williams was absolutely the best hitter that ever played (in his life time).  But that Stan the Man was so underrated and underappreciated.  Stan missed some time also.  I read a book the other day that mentioned Stan and Ted in the same article.  It said that both would probably have passed Cobb on the hit list had they not missed the war years.  That Rose would never have caught their numbers.  Who knows...

[EastexHawg]

What was the team that was voted on a few years ago...some sort of All-Century team or All-Time team?  I think the team was announced at the All-Star game in Boston, where Ted Williams came out in a cart and the players flocked around him...

Anyway...the fact that Pete Rose was selected to that team ahead of Stan Musial is not only insane...IT IS DOWNRIGHT CRIMINAL.

Pete Rose couldn't carry Stan Musial's smelly socks to the dirty clothes hamper for him.

Regarding Ted Williams...he missed close to five seasons.  He missed the entire 1943-1945 seasons, and he only got 101 at-bats between 1952 and 1953.  In 1942 and 1946, the two seasons surrounding his WWII stint, he hit 36 and 38 home runs (and drove in 123 and 137 runs).  That's an "average" year of 37 homers.  Add 111 homers (37 x 3) to his 521 and you're up to 632. 

He hit 30 dingers in 531 ABs in 1951, the year before he was drafted into Korea (how insane was it that a civilian superstar ballplayer would be drafted into both WWII and Korea?).  In the first season in which he got over 400 ABs after Korea (1957, at the age of 38) he hit 38 home runs.  So, if you average those two years you get 34 per season.  Add 68 homers (34 x 2) to 632 and you get to 700.

Ted Williams hit 29 homers in only 310 at-bats in 1960, his last year in the majors.  Does anyone actually believe that if he had been within 14 homers of Ruth's record he wouldn't have come back for another year? 

FWIW, in 1950 Williams had 28 homers and 97 RBI through 89 games when he broke his elbow in the All-Star game.  He was on his way to a 50 homer, 168 RBI season that year.

Hank Aaron was one of the few superstars in baseball history who ever played his entire career without losing significant time to major injury, war, being a starting pitcher for six years, or the other factors that affected most of baseball's greatest players.  From his rookie season in 1954 (the year after the Korean War ended) through 1971...18 years...he never got fewer than 468 ABs in a season. 

In fact, from 1955 through 1968...14 straight years...he never got fewer than 570 ABs in a season.  He AVERAGED 602 at-bats during those 14 years...getting more ABs in that 14 year stretch alone than Ruth got in his entire 22 year major league career. 

To put it in perspective, Hank Aaron got OVER 700 MORE AT-BATS IN 14 YEARS FROM 1955 THROUGH 1968 THAN TED WILLIAMS GOT IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER FROM 1939 THROUGH 1960.

Aaron hit 497 homers and drove in 1,558 runs in those 8,421 at-bats from 1955 through 1968.  Ruth hit 714 homers and drove in 2,213 runs in 8,399 career at-bats.  Williams hit 521 homers and drove in 1,839 runs in only 7,706 career ABs.

On top of that, Ruth hit .342 for his career.  Williams hit .344.  Musial hit .331 (with 475 home runs). 

Aaron hit .305.  And Pete Rose, another player who was lucky enough to play 24 seasons without missing significant time serving his country or via injury, was a .303 lifetime hitter who averaged 7 homers and 55 RBI per season. 

As for "setting the table"...

Babe Ruth walked 500 more times and scored 9 more runs...in 6,000 FEWER CAREER AT-BATS THAN PETE ROSE.

[Oklahawg]

Jimmy Foxx played during an era when the LEAGUE hit over .300. He was a darned good ballplayer.

Its like asking whether you prefer Brianna Banks or Jenna Jameson giving you unlimited, free massage for the rest of your life. As a gift from your wife. Can you really argue with either?

[dhornjr1]

All this discussion while the subject of the thread continues to scorch the very ground that he walks on and continues to put up unheard of numbers.

Albert Pujols - The only player in the HISTORY of major league baseball to hit .300 or better, slam 30 home runs or better, drive in 100 runs or better, and score 100 runs or better in his first five full seasons.

[hawkhawg]

I think Pujols is a great player and great hitter but I never put him in the "greatest ever" category.
In my five decades I think there have been a handful of players that could have been potential greatest ever:

Barry bonds- out of conversation because of steroids.
Roger Clemens- out of conversation because of steroids.
Ken Griffey- injury robed him of title
Pete Rose- controversy took him out.
Nolan Ryan- "greatest strike out pitcher" but not playing on good teams prob                 
keeps him below guys like Ruth as greatest ever.
Rickey henderson- "greatest leadoff hitter" but can't put him in overall greatest.
Mariano Rivera- "greatest closer" but not even in conversation for overall greatest.
Cal Ripken- the ironman streak is amazing but sub .300 batting average.   

[mhuff]

Your talking about Ruth who hit in an era when pitchers had two pitches:  fast ball and a little faster ball. 

How fast did they throw it in the Civil War.

[Ray Piggers]

The "best baseball player ever" doesn't mean the best hitter ever.  Ruth was more than just a decent pitcher and he played in the outfield.  Pujols plays first base.  Willie Mays is considered the best centerfielder ever and he was a five tool player.  Pujols just hits and in my book that doesn't mean shiite.  Pujols doesn't have a ring either.

Pujols doesn't have a ring? Like, a World Series ring?

You're right.. He doesn't have Ah ring... He has two.

2006 and 2011 with the Cardinals.

[Ray Piggers]

All this discussion while the subject of the thread continues to scorch the very ground that he walks on and continues to put up unheard of numbers.

Albert Pujols - The only player in the HISTORY of major league baseball to hit .300 or better, slam 30 home runs or better, drive in 100 runs or better, and score 100 runs or better in his first five full seasons.

And it would have been first 10 years, but he failed to score 100 runs in 2007... He scored 99.

[clutch]

Pujols doesn't have a ring? Like, a World Series ring?

You're right.. He doesn't have Ah ring... He has two.

2006 and 2011 with the Cardinals.

When he made that post in May of 2006 he didn't have a ring.

[PonderinHog]

When he made that post in May of 2006 he didn't have a ring.

Damn necroposters.

[pigture perfect]

I still like AP. Even though he did jump ship. I just wonder how great his numbers would have been had he been able to stay healthy.

[Ray Piggers]

When he made that post in May of 2006 he didn't have a ring.

Wow..

I didn't even realize it was a throwback thread haha