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Returning to our roots: DEFENSE!

Started by Fayettechill14, September 23, 2012, 11:53:20 pm

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Fayettechill14

I touched on this in the very lengthy post titled "What our next system needs to look like" but apparently I lost some readers when I called Reggie Herring a good defensive coordinator and ended up with more smites than applauds over that post. I wanted to clear up some stuff about what our next defense needs to look like.

Herring was a mediocre at best DC. He was an awful recruiter, average talent developer and certified hothead. But he had one thing going for him: he was familiar with the 4-3 Over defense, the system that best utilizes the talent that we can feasibly recruit. Hence the 2006 defense that statistically was the best Arkansas defense in the last 10 years.

I'm a proponent of Butch Davis as our next head coach. Some people want a defense-minded coach because they think if he's a great recruiter we'll start pulling 5* hulking linebackers and crush everyone with an Alabama-style 3-4 defense. I'm here to tell you that's a bad idea. Arkansas doesn't produce that kind of talent, and neither does east Texas. Those guys are only found in Alabama, Georgia, and Florida, hence Alabama and Georgia's linebacker-heavy 3-4 defense. But the 3-4 Under is not the only defense that can be successful.

We need to get back to our roots. In 1973 Frank Broyles, near the end of his tenure, hired Jimmy Johnson as his defensive coordinator. Arkansas had just lost QB Joe Ferguson to graduation, and Broyles feared that his offense would drop off for a couple of seasons. He asked Johnson to install a system that could be run with "Arkansas boys," that is, the talent that the state produces. What Johnson came up with is known as the 4-3 Over. The 4-3 had been around for a bit, but the Over formation allowed a defense to cover for deficiencies at the linebacker spot by utilizing the skill of the defensive line. It worked well. In 1975 Arkansas won Broyles' last SWC title, a season that included the famous 31-6 beatdown of A&M in the Rock. Johnson later took a head coaching job at Miami, where he won a national championship along with his defensive coordinator, Butch Davis, who to this day runs the 4-3 Over (so does HIS former DC Randy Shannon).

When evaluating our needs as a program, let's look at what units on defense are historically strong, mediocre, and weak.

Strong
Defensive tackles
Defensive ends
Mediocre
Outside linebackers
Safeties
Weak
Inside linebackers
Cornerbacks

All secondary is similar, so we need to focus our next defense on the front seven. We need a system that utilizes our DTs and DEs, while covering for inefficiencies in ILBs. The 3-4 defense, any type, is out of the question. Alabama's 3-4 Under requires THREE big, hulking beasts of linebackers (Mike, Will, and Sam) and also does not utilize as much DE pass-rushing talent. Our current system, the 4-3 Under, run by Haynes, Willy, and most college DCs, requires TWO big hulking, beasts (Mike and Sam). The 4-3 Over requires just one.

Here's how it works:
The 3-4 Under (Alabama's D) vs. the I-Formation
BLB      WLB   MLB
   DE  DT    DE     SLB
  T   G   C   G   T  TE
           QB
           FB
           RB
The WLB, MLB, and SLB all have to be dominant against the run. Notice how the DL is pushed to the weak side, so their only main responsibility is cutbacks and spying. Guys like Jake Bequette would not work at DE, which is why the Patriots (a 4-3 defense) drafted him, rather than a 3-4 defense. We do not have and will never have enough big linebackers to make this system work. A big "recruiter" won't fix that.

The 4-3 Under (our current defense, most common in major college football)
    WLB     MLB
DE    DT DT    DE    SLB
  T   G   C   G  T  TE

Better for us, since it only requires two big LBs (MLB and SLB), but notice again that the linebackers are primarily responsible for stopping the run. In our 2011 defense, Bequette was weak DE, Wright was strong DE, Jones and Davis were DTs, Franklin was MLB, Nelson was WLB, and Highsmith was SLB. The WLB's primary responsibility is covering the flats on the weakside, and since Nelson graduated that position has been awful this year, as no one can cover the flats and cutback lanes. Highsmith is okay, he has size, but he gets blocked too easily which is one of the reasons we couldn't stop the run in 2011. Franklin was undersized and also blocked too easily. We really need to cut down on the necessity of linebackers and promote the role of the D-line.

The 4-3 Over (Jimmy Johnson/Butch Davis defense, Herring's 2006 defense)
WLB       MLB     SLB
  DE    DT    DT       DE
  T   G   C   G   T   TE

Notice that now, the DT and DE are primarily responsible for handling a run to the strong side, and the SLB needs to be fast to come in and "clean up." The MLB needs to be pretty big, but he's the only one. Notice that both DEs have good lanes to rush the QB, as opposed to one DE in the 4-3 Under and zero DEs in the 3-4. In our 2006 defense, Jamaal Anderson was weak DE, Antwain Robinson was strong DE, Marcus Harrison and Keith Jackson Jr were DTs, Sam Olajabutu was strong LB, Freddie Fairchild was weak LB, and Weston Dacus was MLB. Olajabutu was the prototypical Arkansas linebacker, small but fast and mean, and he cleaned up any running plays to the strong side. This system best utilizes our always-talented defensive line.

Now, the 2006 defense wasn't perfect. It could be beaten by a good passing team that could protect their QB. And a lot of that talent was due to a surprising influx in in-state talent on the DL (all four starters were from Little Rock). But a long-term commitment to this system WILL yield results. If we can recruit just slightly better to this system, within a couple of years we'll have a capable defense.

Posted before, but if you want to see the 4-3 Over at its best, take a look at the play of the defensive front in this game:


Fayettechill14


 

songofthesword

I truely beliueve that all things being equal the best defense is a good offense. 

I watched sunday night football, and the most vaunted defense,  with all pros everywhere on defense ,at least in the AFC got tore to shreads by a good offense in a workman like machnaical manner

I think the real downside to petrino leaving and what a lot of peole don't seem to understand is that.. he never really got his system impliented on offense. all this stuff he did, this was just him being a freaking genius.  but what happens when he puts 3 6'3 205-210 WR's that are all rivals 4 stars with offers from everywhere out against bama and you have a ryan mallett type QB in the backfield? we don't know because we never got that far in the program.  but i would imagine it would look alot like the new england game looked tonight.  WR's that are too big to push around but fast enough where you have to resepct the deep threat?  2 Hunter Henry/ Gragg type TE's?  a real O line?  we don't know any of that.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: songofthesword on September 24, 2012, 12:24:32 am
I truely beliueve that all things being equal the best defense is a good offense. 

I watched sunday night football, and the most vaunted defense,  with all pros everywhere on defense ,at least in the AFC got tore to shreads by a good offense in a workman like machnaical manner

I think the real downside to petrino leaving and what a lot of peole don't seem to understand is that.. he never really got his system impliented on offense. all this stuff he did, this was just him being a freaking genius.  but what happens when he puts 3 6'3 205-210 WR's that are all rivals 4 stars with offers from everywhere out against bama and you have a ryan mallett type QB in the backfield? we don't know because we never got that far in the program.  but i would imagine it would look alot like the new england game looked tonight.  WR's that are too big to push around but fast enough where you have to resepct the deep threat?  2 Hunter Henry/ Gragg type TE's?  a real O line?  we don't know any of that.

I would agree with you, but our recruiting declined over 4 years. Brandon Allen was going to be a good QB, and J. Williams a good RB, but what about the line? Once again on NSD we didn't sign any good linemen, and our line lacks depth and talent as it is. By four years the system should be in place, but we were in for a disappointment even if Petrino had come back. We'd probably be 3-1, but South Carolina and LSU would have beaten us even with Bobby, I'm afraid. I just think that 10-2 is Bobby's ceiling, unless he goes to a school that has total recruiting dominance (Florida, USC, Notre Dame, Michigan, Texas, etc.)

I think it would be much easier to hire a good OC along with a coach like Butch Davis, who runs a system that will work here. We can make the offense happen...Gus and Nutt ran a successful run-heavy offense in 2006-2007, while Petrino ran a successful pro-style pass offense in 2009-2011. We're more versatile with what our offense can do, so I'd rather leave an OC up to control of that and focus on the defense.

Root Down

Brian Van Gorder was the Falcons DC.  He uses the bend / don't break.  only rush 4, play zone, play off WR.  Falcons ranked 18th pts allowed.

Mike nolan is the new DC.  He plays more aggressive, press man, mixed with some zone.  Shows 1 coverage then roles into another.  Does a much better job at keeping the Oline guessing what the blocking assignments will end up being.  This has generated much more pressure.  Falcons are Ranked 4th in pts allowed with virtually the exact same personnel.

Coaching / scheme are everything.

The_Iceman

I'd be ok with hiring Butch Davis if he brings Randy Shannon with him.

Also, really enjoy reading your posts. +1.

What we also need on Defense is attitude. We have no attitude on D.

devildoghawg

Quote from: The_Iceman on September 24, 2012, 09:09:56 am
I'd be ok with hiring Butch Davis if he brings Randy Shannon with him.

Also, really enjoy reading your posts. +1.

What we also need on Defense is attitude. We have no attitude on D.

Watching our defense "tackle" shows the above.  When they hit people, they don't get viscious or angry.  They just attempt to push them down and run back to huddle.  A good defense should leave a reciever wondering if he should try to catch that next ball, and the quarterback wanting to leave the pocket in fear of getting smashed.  We have neither, and it shows by how two low tier schools man handled us.
Quote from: kingofdequeen on July 25, 2013, 06:21:48 pm
If you've got a dumba** son, do you love him any less?  no.  you just overlook his faults b/c you love him.  At least that's what my dad does.

The_Iceman

Quote from: devildoghawg on September 24, 2012, 09:21:59 am
Watching our defense "tackle" shows the above.  When they hit people, they don't get viscious or angry.  They just attempt to push them down and run back to huddle.  A good defense should leave a reciever wondering if he should try to catch that next ball, and the quarterback wanting to leave the pocket in fear of getting smashed.  We have neither, and it shows by how two low tier schools man handled us.

There is a reason these defensive players Bobby brought in weren't highly recruiting.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: Root Down on September 24, 2012, 08:40:48 am
Brian Van Gorder was the Falcons DC.  He uses the bend / don't break.  only rush 4, play zone, play off WR.  Falcons ranked 18th pts allowed.

Mike nolan is the new DC.  He plays more aggressive, press man, mixed with some zone.  Shows 1 coverage then roles into another.  Does a much better job at keeping the Oline guessing what the blocking assignments will end up being.  This has generated much more pressure.  Falcons are Ranked 4th in pts allowed with virtually the exact same personnel.

Coaching / scheme are everything.

Coaching and scheme have maximum effect in the secondary, the strategy of which is not dependent on the front seven. As good as Saban's front seven is, his background is in secondary, and his guys can confuse even Bobby.

In 2000, Charlie Strong reinvented the 3-3-5 flex defense as the DC at South Carolina under Holtz. SC had gone 0-11 in Holtz's first year, and Strong knew he didn't have the talent to compete with most teams. He only tinkered with the front seven, but focused almost entirely on the secondary. The result was SC going 8-4 and winning the Outback Bowl in 2001, with almost the exact same personnel.

We need a good coach for our secondary, but whether we run the 4-3 Under or 4-3 Over is very dependent on personnel. In 2006 we finished 2nd in the NCAA in sacks. Jamaal Anderson led the SEC and Antwain Robinson finished 3rd. That's dominance. If we want to maximize the use of our defensive line, we need to switch to the 4-3 Over by hiring Butch Davis as HC, or an offensive coach + Randy Shannon as DC, or any DC that comes from the Jimmy Johnson tree of coaches.

Scheme is only part of the game. We need recruiting and player development as well, stuff that Herring was no good at. But if we can establish a scheme that we can recruit to, and then develop the talent, we can have a very good defense.

IronHog

Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 12:44:21 pm
Where you getting the players from?

The entire defensive line is already here. Between Smith, Flowers, Flynn, and Wise at DE; Philon, Thomas, Byran Jones, and Arkadie at DT, we can have an SEC-caliber front for 2013. And that's without any new recruits.

I'm not inclined to believe that the level of in-state talent has fallen off a cliff since 2006. It's been down a couple of years, yes, but it will pick back up shortly.

As I've said, as late as 2011, the line of Bequette, Wright, Jones, and Davis and LB corps of Franklin, Nelson, and Leon was as almost talented as the 2006 team's front seven. Secondary wasn't as good. It's really not that difficult. Just needed a system that fits what we have and will always have.

Secondary is the only thing that needs major recruiting upgrades, but we'll need that regardless of what defense we go with.

IronHog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 12:53:42 pm
The entire defensive line is already here. Between Smith, Flowers, Flynn, and Wise at DE; Philon, Thomas, Byran Jones, and Arkadie at DT, we can have an SEC-caliber front for 2013. And that's without any new recruits.

I'm not inclined to believe that the level of in-state talent has fallen off a cliff since 2006. It's been down a couple of years, yes, but it will pick back up shortly.

As I've said, as late as 2011, the line of Bequette, Wright, Jones, and Davis and LB corps of Franklin, Nelson, and Leon was as almost talented as the 2006 team's front seven. Secondary wasn't as good. It's really not that difficult. Just needed a system that fits what we have and will always have.

Secondary is the only thing that needs major recruiting upgrades, but we'll need that regardless of what defense we go with.


Arkansas turns out few SEC level defenders..... you'll either move kids over or get them OOS.  Nutt's team you like to show play Auburn had ZERO depth..... once grant went down that defense got shoddy pretty quick.


You want a defense first coach he better be able to go into Mississippi and LA and win his share of recruiting battles.......
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 12:56:04 pm

Arkansas turns out few SEC level defenders..... you'll either move kids over or get them OOS.  Nutt's team you like to show play Auburn had ZERO depth..... once grant went down that defense got shoddy pretty quick.


You want a defense first coach he better be able to go into Mississippi and LA and win his share of recruiting battles.......

No, I agree, defensive recruiting MUST be upgraded, but considering how little emphasis has been placed on it since about 2001 (when John Thompson left), it's doable. There are good secondary players and talented, undersized linebackers in East Texas. There are no big, hulking linebackers, though. Those are in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and Louisiana. We'll need to nab about one a year. That's not unreasonable.

 

IronHog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 01:00:29 pm
No, I agree, defensive recruiting MUST be upgraded, but considering how little emphasis has been placed on it since about 2001 (when John Thompson left), it's doable. There are good secondary players and talented, undersized linebackers in East Texas. There are no big, hulking linebackers, though. Those are in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and Louisiana. We'll need to nab about one a year. That's not unreasonable.


East Texas linebackers are Ross Rasner.


Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

hogsanity

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 01:00:29 pm
No, I agree, defensive recruiting MUST be upgraded, but considering how little emphasis has been placed on it since about 2001 (when John Thompson left), it's doable. There are good secondary players and talented, undersized linebackers in East Texas. There are no big, hulking linebackers, though. Those are in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and Louisiana. We'll need to nab about one a year. That's not unreasonable.


You can make due at LB with guys like Bua, Olajabutu, and Franklin.  Not great lb's, but not bad either, and they would all light someone up given the chance to lay a lick on someone.  What you can't do is recruit so poorly that the best options at MLB are to convert the previous seasons starting DE and FULL BACK to MLB. 
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Fayettechill14

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 01:04:26 pm

East Texas linebackers are Ross Rasner.

Rasner would have been a good SLB in an Over front if he could put on 10 pounds.

These four worked/would have worked well in a 4-3 Over:

Jerico Nelson: New Orleans, LA
Sam Olajabutu: LaGrange, GA
Freddie Fairchild: Little Rock, AR
Jerry Franklin: Marion, AR

Again, you've got to dip into the deep south for good linebackers anyway, it's just easier to only need about one per year and not have to require the huge Alabama-style linebackers.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: hogsanity on September 24, 2012, 01:10:52 pm
You can make due at LB with guys like Bua, Olajabutu, and Franklin.  Not great lb's, but not bad either, and they would all light someone up given the chance to lay a lick on someone.  What you can't do is recruit so poorly that the best options at MLB are to convert the previous seasons starting DE and FULL BACK to MLB.

Agreed. Moving Tank Wright was a poor strategic move, especially for a 4-3 Over (which we don't run but should). Your best players should be DEs. The excess talent can be moved if need be, but you must satisfy the DL first.

IronHog

Quote from: hogsanity on September 24, 2012, 01:10:52 pm
You can make due at LB with guys like Bua, Olajabutu, and Franklin.  Not great lb's, but not bad either, and they would all light someone up given the chance to lay a lick on someone.  What you can't do is recruit so poorly that the best options at MLB are to convert the previous seasons starting DE and FULL BACK to MLB. 

Bua wasn't that great.  Undersized, out of control, popular with fans because he'd hit.


Butu good on the move and when he could play underneath..... lord forbid if a OL got his hands on him.

Franklin was good, but not physical.  He needed to be a weak side backer.  Coverted safety.





==============================================


From what I can tell Lowe, Turner, and Peters are the kind of athletes ya'll want..... but 3 isn't enough and you can't play basketball in HS then come into the SEC ready to play.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

IronHog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 01:14:47 pm
Agreed. Moving Tank Wright was a poor strategic move, especially for a 4-3 Over (which we don't run but should). Your best players should be DEs. The excess talent can be moved if need be, but you must satisfy the DL first.


They clearly should have been sliding players down, not up........
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Cure

So you're saying we should go to a 4-3 over because the coaching staff can only recruit good enough players for that particular system?

Team Economics
From Keynes to Friedman, we know what's up.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 01:19:43 pm
Bua wasn't that great.  Undersized, out of control, popular with fans because he'd hit.


Butu good on the move and when he could play underneath..... lord forbid if a OL got his hands on him.

Franklin was good, but not physical.  He needed to be a weak side backer.  Coverted safety.





==============================================


From what I can tell Lowe, Turner, and Peters are the kind of athletes ya'll want..... but 3 isn't enough and you can't play basketball in HS then come into the SEC ready to play.

Bua swarmed to the ball. So did Franklin. That's all an Over front requires of its linebackers. It's the job of the DEs and DTs to eat up the blockers and fullbacks; that's what "Over" means...DL shifts over the strong side.

Linebackers are there to hit the running back. They have to be sure tacklers, a talent that can be developed as well as recruited.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: Cure on September 24, 2012, 01:21:10 pm
So you're saying we should go to a 4-3 over because the coaching staff can only recruit good enough players for that particular system?



I know. It seems obvious. Willy and Haynes try to "install" systems that may or may not work based on the talent. In Willy's defense, his focus was the secondary, which as I've said is the same regardless of the front.

I mean, heck, Jimmy Johnson is considered the inventor of the 4-3 Over front, and he invented while he was OUR defensive coordinator!

Cure

Our problem isn't recruiting a body build type of player, it's recruiting players that actually want contact and are recruited for a position. Plugging and playing isn't getting the job done.

If we want a hard hitting safety, we must go get one. I hope Khari Harding makes it to campus.
Team Economics
From Keynes to Friedman, we know what's up.

IronHog

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 01:21:59 pm
Bua swarmed to the ball. So did Franklin. That's all an Over front requires of its linebackers. It's the job of the DEs and DTs to eat up the blockers and fullbacks; that's what "Over" means...DL shifts over the strong side.

Linebackers are there to hit the running back. They have to be sure tacklers, a talent that can be developed as well as recruited.

I remember other teams laughing at Bua after getting him to bite on 5th grade ball fakes..... he was a liability most of the time.


Franklin was good but one player.... Unless you can get the Graggs and Greens to play linebacker you are going to be short instate.

Guys like Basmine Jones never making it to campus hurt too....... he was probably the best of the Warren 4 and a defender first.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

 

Fayettechill14

Quote from: Cure on September 24, 2012, 01:26:58 pm
Our problem isn't recruiting a body build type of player, it's recruiting players that actually want contact and are recruited for a position. Plugging and playing isn't getting the job done.

If we want a hard hitting safety, we must go get one. I hope Khari Harding makes it to campus.

I like him. We need a hard hitting safety. Randy Kelley was the guy on the 2006 team. We used that safety blitz to get pressure and stop the run.

Danny J

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 12:44:21 pm
Where you getting the players from?
You bring in a big name defensive coach known for turning out pro-bowl defensive players equal to saban plus a big name DC like shannon and we will start to snatch some players out of GA, FL and LA. No question.

We have enough regional and instate offensive talent to do what we need to do on that side of the ball provided we have a top 2-3 defense.

This is what I think is happening. We had a GREAT offensive coach known for his offense and pro-style(close enough). That attracted offensive players HOWEVER we already have many of these players in-state and regionally. The players we don't have in-state are defensive players. So we have to have a reason to attract those players and right now we don't and you see the results. We need to reverse the thinking. Since we have the offensive players in-state we just need a decent OC who likes to run and play action who can continue to get the offensive players in-state and regionally. Now bring in a guy like Davis and Shannon and all the sudden we now can go after those out of state defenders we HAVE to have to be able to compete with bama and LSU. Right now we just don't have it.

If we hire another offensive minded coach we will never, not as long as bama and LSU are at the top, win the sec or national title. BP is just about the best offensive mind in fball certainly college and Bama and LSU thumped us except for two close wins at home against LSU. We need a big name defensive coach who can recruit. Davis and shannon are indeed big names that can recruit.

Just my $.02

IronHog

Quote from: Cure on September 24, 2012, 01:26:58 pm
Our problem isn't recruiting a body build type of player, it's recruiting players that actually want contact and are recruited for a position. Plugging and playing isn't getting the job done.

If we want a hard hitting safety, we must go get one. I hope Khari Harding makes it to campus.


I agree with this..........



You've got to be born with a certain ability to take angles and enjoy hitting other humans to be a good middle defender in football......


Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

IronHog

Quote from: Danny J (headhawg7) on September 24, 2012, 01:28:32 pm
You bring in a big name defensive coach known for turning out pro-bowl defensive players equal to saban plus a big name DC like shannon and we will start to snatch some players out of GA, FL and LA. No question.

We have enough regional and instate offensive talent to do what we need to do on that side of the ball provided we have a top 2-3 defense.

This is what I think is happening. We had a GREAT offensive coach known for his offense and pro-style(close enough). That attracted offensive players HOWEVER we already have many of these players in-state and regionally. The players we don't have in-state are defensive players. So we have to have a reason to attract those players and right now we don't and you see the results. We need to reverse the thinking. Since we have the offensive players in-state we just need a decent OC who likes to run and play action who can continue to get the offensive players in-state and regionally. Now bring in a guy like Davis and Shannon and all the sudden we now can go after those out of state defenders we HAVE to have to be able to compete with bama and LSU. Right now we just don't have it.

If we hire another offensive minded coach we will never, not as long as bama and LSU are at the top, win the sec or national title. BP is just about the best offensive mind in fball certainly college and Bama and LSU thumped us except for two close wins at home against LSU. We need a big name defensive coach who can recruit. Davis and shannon are indeed big names that can recruit.

Just my $.02



People are upset, but BP worked hard to get the best defenders in the area.  The only DT they let get away was the kid that went to Texas, and the kid from OK that washed out anyway.


There just aren't many, and the tip top from the fringes of the recruiting area went to top 5 type schools.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 01:30:03 pm

I agree with this..........



You've got to be born with a certain ability to take angles and enjoy hitting other humans to be a good middle defender in football......

Yep, tackling fundamentals can be taught, swarming to the ball and enjoying contact cannot.

Fayettechill14

Quote from: Danny J (headhawg7) on September 24, 2012, 01:28:32 pm
You bring in a big name defensive coach known for turning out pro-bowl defensive players equal to saban plus a big name DC like shannon and we will start to snatch some players out of GA, FL and LA. No question.

We have enough regional and instate offensive talent to do what we need to do on that side of the ball provided we have a top 2-3 defense.

This is what I think is happening. We had a GREAT offensive coach known for his offense and pro-style(close enough). That attracted offensive players HOWEVER we already have many of these players in-state and regionally. The players we don't have in-state are defensive players. So we have to have a reason to attract those players and right now we don't and you see the results. We need to reverse the thinking. Since we have the offensive players in-state we just need a decent OC who likes to run and play action who can continue to get the offensive players in-state and regionally. Now bring in a guy like Davis and Shannon and all the sudden we now can go after those out of state defenders we HAVE to have to be able to compete with bama and LSU. Right now we just don't have it.

If we hire another offensive minded coach we will never, not as long as bama and LSU are at the top, win the sec or national title. BP is just about the best offensive mind in fball certainly college and Bama and LSU thumped us except for two close wins at home against LSU. We need a big name defensive coach who can recruit. Davis and shannon are indeed big names that can recruit.

Just my $.02

This is my thinking exactly. This state has, since 2004, produced all of the following:
Peyton Hillis (2004)
Darren McFadden (2005)
Dennis Johnson (2008)
Michael Dyer (2010)
Altee Tenpenny (2013)

That's pretty impressive. Running backs will find their way here. So will receivers and some offensive linemen (Brey Cook, Mitch Smothers to name some recent ones). East Texas is chock-full of OL and receivers, with a handful of QBs. We'll have the Allen brothers through 2016 at least.

If we focus on defense, we'll still get the offensive players, but maybe we can get the defenders too.

hog1984

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 12:10:21 am
Here's a link on the 4-3 Over for inquiring football minds: http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/9/28/1695461/miami-unc-the-4-3-over-slide-front

OK. Looks good to me. I nominate you to the selection committee. Hire Butch Davis and tell him to get to work.

Danny J

Quote from: IronHog on September 24, 2012, 01:31:48 pm


People are upset, but BP worked hard to get the best defenders in the area.  The only DT they let get away was the kid that went to Texas, and the kid from OK that washed out anyway.


There just aren't many, and the tip top from the fringes of the recruiting area went to top 5 type schools.
I agree which is why we need a reason to attract those players from the LA and east of LA all the way to FL. I don't really care too much about texas while sure we want to get some players from texas it just seems to me the states east of texas produce better SEC talent on defense. JMHO.

Danny J

Quote from: Fayettechill14 on September 24, 2012, 01:38:13 pm
This is my thinking exactly. This state has, since 2004, produced all of the following:
Peyton Hillis (2004)
Darren McFadden (2005)
Dennis Johnson (2008)
Michael Dyer (2010)
Altee Tenpenny (2013)

That's pretty impressive. Running backs will find their way here. So will receivers and some offensive linemen (Brey Cook, Mitch Smothers to name some recent ones). East Texas is chock-full of OL and receivers, with a handful of QBs. We'll have the Allen brothers through 2016 at least.

If we focus on defense, we'll still get the offensive players, but maybe we can get the defenders too.
I agree.