US womens open. Unbelievable.

[Dr. Starcs]

If you aren't watching. On fox now.

Stacy finishes 6th btw and Gaby ties for 11th.

[Martygit]

Great tournament until the finish - there are a lot of things going on in this world and in this country that are more important than which millionaire golfer wins a tournament, however..........for those of us who love golf and spend a lot of time either playing or watching golf, the USGA is an embarrassment - they have totally screwed up both the men's and women's US Open.  The men's didn't hurt because DJ won despite what they did.  But, today, there were two screw ups that shouldn't have happened: 1. They decided to assess a 2 stroke penalty against Norquist (BTW, I'm glad Lang won) but didn't tell her until she had already teed off on the third playoff hole with a 3 wood, planning to play the par 5 without trying to eagle it.  If they had told her before she had teed off, she may well have gone with driver and gone for the green in two, attempting to eagle and tie Lang's par - but she wasn't given the opportunity.  She didn't know of the 2 stroke penalty until either her 2nd or 3rd shot on 18. 2.  That dumb bitch who is apparently the president of the USGA announced the winner with the wrong name on national TV.  I thought she called her Stephanie Lang 3 times but the reports are that she called her Bethany Lang those 3 times - whatever, the President of the USGA can't get the name of the winner of their only major correct in the presentation of the trophy?  It was shameful, made less egregious only by the fact that Brittany Lang was classy enough to not mention it.  The USGA needs to be disbanded and the national opens run by the PGA and the LPGA!

[Dr. Starcs]

Exactly my thoughts Martin.

Well said.

[HognitiveDissonance]

I do think golf's problem is a large disconnect between the avid players and the casual sports fans.
The USGA sees themselves as the stewards of the game and take their jobs very seriously.
But too seriously to the average person.
The average sports fan was drawn to the game by the brilliance of Tiger Woods.
The average fan sees golf as a game with too many persnickety rules which most don't even understand. The ball moving on the green in the men's Open is a perfect example. Where's the harm? What advantage is being gained---c'mon, just put it back and play on, the average guy says. Why do you even need another rule for that?
The rules of golf are kinda like the tax code. You would probably do well by taking a step back and totally rewriting the rules with more common sense and reduce the rule book by half, or more.

[EastexHawg]

I don't find anything about it "unbelievable".  The USGA rules officials didn't know about the violation until someone at Fox notified them.  Once the head rules official looked at the zoomed in and slow motion replay, he decided to notify the players immediately.  It's not like the referee with the group is watching a high definition TV and can make rules decisions instantaneously.  There was a time lag, but that was because no one knew about the violation until it was viewed on TV.  Once notified, the USGA can't just take someone at Fox's word for it.  They have to watch it themselves so they can make a ruling.

Is it unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament was affected to such a large extent by a penalty for a rules violation?  Yes, of course it is, but it's not the USGA's fault that Nordqvist touched the sand in the bunker...just as it wasn't the PGA's fault when Dustin Johnson failed to read the local rule and grounded his club in a bunker a few years ago.

Sometimes unfortunate things happen in life and in sports and you just have to say "too bad" and move on.  Nothing is perfect.   

[Dr. Starcs]

As Paul azinger said they should have let both players hit their shots before notifying. It was unfair to tell Lang because it absolutely effected how she played her 3rd shot.
Nordquist also played it safe on her 3rd because they didnt tell her soon enough. The usga has not looked good the past month.

Not only that, but you can't tell me they couldn't notify the official with the pairing within 5 minutes?!  Why did it take so long when clearly everyone could see the violation occurred.

[HognitiveDissonance]

I have a problem with the rule itself.
I would prefer to take two steps back and re-examine some of these arcane rules.
Cheating is defined by gaining a competitive advantage. If no advantage was gained, there is no harm.
The purpose of the rule is to prevent someone from improving their lie. In this case, a player shouldn't be allowed to dig their club in the sand and improve a plugged lie to a more playable lie, for example.
But that wasn't even close to the case here. Nordqwist gained zero advantage.
Same thing with the ball rolling on the green. If the player didn't make contact with the ball and the ball moves, simply put it back. No advantage gained, play on.

[Hawgndaaz]

I don't find anything about it "unbelievable".  The USGA rules officials didn't know about the violation until someone at Fox notified them.  Once the head rules official looked at the zoomed in and slow motion replay, he decided to notify the players immediately.  It's not like the referee with the group is watching a high definition TV and can make rules decisions instantaneously.  There was a time lag, but that was because no one knew about the violation until it was viewed on TV.  Once notified, the USGA can't just take someone at Fox's word for it.  They have to watch it themselves so they can make a ruling.

Is it unfortunate that the outcome of the tournament was affected to such a large extent by a penalty for a rules violation?  Yes, of course it is, but it's not the USGA's fault that Nordqvist touched the sand in the bunker...just as it wasn't the PGA's fault when Dustin Johnson failed to read the local rule and grounded his club in a bunker a few years ago.

Sometimes unfortunate things happen in life and in sports and you just have to say "too bad" and move on.  Nothing is perfect.   

bull.

If the martial, the player, or the opponent can't see a club being grounded with the naked eye, there shouldn't be a penalty. We are talking less than 10 grains of sand displaced. Stupid and archaic.

[HognitiveDissonance]

What is ironic here is that Nordqwist did not gain a competitive advantage by accidentally flecking a few grains of sand, as her lie remained the same and the degree of difficulty of her bunker shot remained the same.

However, due to the actions of the USGA officials, Lang DID gain a competitive advantage because she was told of the penalty BEFORE she hit her shot but AFTER Nordqwist had already hit hers and could no longer change her strategy.

So by effort of enforcing the rules(which are there to prevent competitive advantage), the officials actually executed what they were trying to prevent. They 'created' an advantage for Lang whereas previously neither player held an advantage.

[Dr. Starcs]

^^^
Exactly.

[clutch]

I have a problem with the rule itself.
I would prefer to take two steps back and re-examine some of these arcane rules.
Cheating is defined by gaining a competitive advantage. If no advantage was gained, there is no harm.
The purpose of the rule is to prevent someone from improving their lie. In this case, a player shouldn't be allowed to dig their club in the sand and improve a plugged lie to a more playable lie, for example.
But that wasn't even close to the case here. Nordqwist gained zero advantage.
Same thing with the ball rolling on the green. If the player didn't make contact with the ball and the ball moves, simply put it back. No advantage gained, play on.

Especially if the ball happens to move backwards on the putting green. How are you gaining an advantage by the ball moving away from the hole?

[Martygit]

The rule is as follows:

13-4.  Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard).....the player must not:

a.   Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b.    Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand    or a club; or

c.   Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.


Obviously, she was not testing the condition of the "hazard" (bunker) but she did "touch" the ground in the hazard with her club.  It's a matter of degree.  Where do you draw the line between what type of touching you are going to allow.  Her touching did not either test the condition of the hazard or change anything about her stroke.  But, at what point do you say that some touching is okay and some isn't - so you simply prohibit all of it.

I'm not sure I understand the idea behind the no touching rule.  Why shouldn't you be able to ground your club in a hazard, i.e. touch the ground?  I suppose that they don't want you to be able to test the ground in the hazard and any touching may allow you to do that.

I'd like to see bunkers excluded from the definition of hazard and allow grounding.  Particularly in light of the fact that some courses designate what is obviously a bunker as a waste area which allows grounding (think of what at least used to be designated as a waste area along the left side of the fairway on hole 16 at Harbor Town - they may have changed that designation now by now identifying it as a bunker - but many of the sand areas at the Ocean Course on Kiawah are designated as waste areas when they are nothing more than bunkers)

[EastexHawg]

Everyone who has ever played competitive golf, or even just knows the rules, knows it is a penalty to touch the sand in a bunker.  That she did it... even just a little...is a violation and isn't the USGA's fault.

How about hovering the club a little higher over the ball?

[HognitiveDissonance]

Everyone who has ever played competitive golf, or even just knows the rules, knows it is a penalty to touch the sand in a bunker.  That she did it... even just a little...is a violation and isn't the USGA's fault.

How about hovering the club a little higher over the ball?

I play golf a lot.
It's hard to prepare for a shot without placing the club near the ball.
On any normal shot, you typically place the club right behind the ball; the clubhead is undoubtedly touching or grazing some sprigs of grass. The vast majority of players don't 'hover' the club that far over the ball.
To properly prepare for a sand shot, you need to have the clubhead in close proximity to the ball. I don't see the harm if the club touches some sand slightly, no more than touching grass on a full shot.
As long as the lie isn't improved.
The rulesmakers take the spirit of the rule(don't improve your situation) and take it to extremes.
Someone asked where do you draw the line? I draw it at improving your not improving your lie or degree of difficulty of your shot. Seems fairly straightforward.

[HognitiveDissonance]

Should have read 'I would draw the line on not improving your lie'.

I can't type.

[EastexHawg]

It's not just the spirit of the rule.  The rule book doesn't just talk about improving your lie, it specifically says that touching the ground or sand in a hazard/bunker is a violation.  If you do it, even accidentally, it's a penalty.  Nordqvist knows that as does every other player.  No one heard her complaining about the ruling itself.

[Dr. Starcs]

The rule was only enforced because of a high def camera. But a rule is a rule.

My beef was with the timing or lack thereof of the enforcement.

[HognitiveDissonance]

And I would like the rule to be changed to specifically say that merely touching a sprig of grass or a fleck of sand should not constitute a violation. That's the whole point: change the rule.

Just like D Johnson shouldn't have had a penalty, either. Change the rule.

Remove some non-sensical rules and make the game more appealing to the average guy/gal who may only watch golf at a major event. These rulings have given golf a bad look this summer.

[GolfNut57]

It's not just the spirit of the rule.  The rule book doesn't just talk about improving your lie, it specifically says that touching the ground or sand in a hazard/bunker is a violation. If you do it, even accidentally, it's a penalty. 

WRONG!! If you are falling and touch the ground with your hand or club in an attempt to stay upright there is no penalty.

Rule 13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a.

Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b.

Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c.

Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

There is also no penalty for touching the sand when the ball is buried and you need to uncover it in order to identify it.

[theFlyingHog]

The rule was only enforced because of a high def camera. But a rule is a rule.

My beef was with the timing or lack thereof of the enforcement.

As a longtime avid golfer I have a hard time believing she did not know she brushed the sand. I've called that one on myself more than once. I bet she doesn't set up with the club that close to the sand again

[Boarcephus]

Finally saw the replay.  I understand what the rule is but that's a helluva penalty for something as minor as that.  I'm just not a big USGA fan and Faldo zinged them this morning.  Brought a little smile to my face when he did it. 

[Martygit]

WRONG!! If you are falling and touch the ground with your hand or club in an attempt to stay upright there is no penalty.

Rule 13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a.

Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b.

Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c.

Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

There is also no penalty for touching the sand when the ball is buried and you need to uncover it in order to identify it.

What he (or the rule) said

[EastexHawg]

I'm not going to quote all of that, but I'll just say that none of the exceptions happened.  She touched the sand behind the ball with her club prior to taking her swing.  That is a clear violation.

It's not really necessary to change a rule every time someone violates it and has to suffer unfortunate consequences.

[GolfNut57]

I'm not going to quote all of that, but I'll just say that none of the exceptions happened.  She touched the sand behind the ball with her club prior to taking her swing.  That is a clear violation.

It's not really necessary to change a rule every time someone violates it and has to suffer unfortunate consequences.

I never claimed any exception happened. I just pointed out your mistake when you stated it was a penalty to touch the sand, even if it was a accident in doing so. And you are allowed to intentionally touch the sand and even move it if your ball is buried completely for the purpose of identifying your ball. Of course once you do identity your ball you must cover it back up before your next shot.